Fighter-friendly monsters

[Larkas]

I'm looking for monsters that would be friendly for Fighters and other mundane a to fight and defeat, while being strong against magic and otherwise supernatural effects. Ideally, these monsters would have a lot of HP but reasonable AC, huge saves, immunity to mind affecting and turning, etc. Do you guys know of any creatures that might fit the bill? Might be of any CR whatsoever, I'm just trying to compile information here.

[Saph]

Outsiders are probably your best bet – demons, devils, angels, etc. They all have 3 good saves and come with SR as standard, as well as energy resistance, meaning that the best way to kill them is usually to hit them with something big and heavy. Golems work too.

[Khedrac]

Ethergaunts could work against the right CRs - iirc they are flat out immune to any spell below a certain level. They also have insufficient hit points to survive against fighters any length of time.

[Larkas]

Hmmm, those might work! Know of any strong native outsider? Being subject to banishment is a huge weak spot, unfortunately.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ethergaunts could work against the right CRs - iirc they are flat out immune to any spell below a certain level. They also have insufficient hit points to survive against fighters any length of time.

They also cast as wizards of certain level (black even getting 17 wiz casting) not exactly Fighter friendly.

Assuming your fighters can fly, young-ish dragons (without casting) perhaps with the wyrm of war Sovereign Archetype and the awaken spell resistance feat might work.

[Tanngrisnir]

I tend to play Fighters all the time, and one of the most memorable encounters I had was against a dragon with an anti-magic gem around it's throat. Basically the casters were useless as they couldn't cast at it and one hit from it would kill them, so it was up to the Barbarian and my Fighter to take it on toe to toe in melee. It was really fun.

[Larkas]

Nice! I'll take a look at dragons and linnorms too, then!

[Valdis]

I had a fight against a Bronze Serpent the other day, MM2 page 40. Has a SR 21 and is immune to electricity (he's actually healed by it). His melee attacks are very strong though and can easily overpower a fighter, if he focuses in on 1 particular player.

[Answerer]

I tend to play Fighters all the time, and one of the most memorable encounters I had was against a dragon with an anti-magic gem around it's throat. Basically the casters were useless as they couldn't cast at it and one hit from it would kill them, so it was up to the Barbarian and my Fighter to take it on toe to toe in melee. It was really fun.
Yeah, I'm sure the casters really enjoyed showing up to the table and being told "yeah, you guys don't get to play today." :smallfurious: That kind of DMing is just atrocious. Especially since for the conclusion you describe to be true, it must be a DM-fiat perfect and huge AMF, as the actual spell has a tiny radius (hint: if your wizard is within 10 feet of a hostile dragon, he is already dead, AMF or not).

[Story]

Maybe these were lowop casters who've never heard of Orb of Force.

[ArcturusV]

Or unable to think outside the box. I mean, sure, the dragon inside his lair has some gem of Anti-Magic Shell and what not. But hmm, maybe go Stoneshape the top of the cave above the dragon to do a mini-cave in to get some damage in?

I mean just because the Dragon is Immune to Magic directly, doesn't mean you can't indirect. If the wizard/cleric was feeling useless it was more or less because of an inability to think outside the box.

[Vaz]

Yeah, I'm sure the casters really enjoyed showing up to the table and being told "yeah, you guys don't get to play today." :smallfurious: That kind of DMing is just atrocious. Especially since for the conclusion you describe to be true, it must be a DM-fiat perfect and huge AMF, as the actual spell has a tiny radius (hint: if your wizard is within 10 feet of a hostile dragon, he is already dead, AMF or not).

Why did it need to be fought? Invisibility on party, job done. Gem of AMF, means no true seeing/detect magic.

Even then, if it was huge or larger, amf is the same size or smaller as the space of the dragon, so buff away, and polymorph imto a whatever you want o be.

Foghter friendly monsters - try just seperating the party, if they are low enough level that they lacl the doohickery to bypass a floor to ceiling wall to wall of stone or whatever.

[Doorhandle]

Yeah, I'm sure the casters really enjoyed showing up to the table and being told "yeah, you guys don't get to play today." :smallfurious: That kind of DMing is just atrocious. Especially since for the conclusion you describe to be true, it must be a DM-fiat perfect and huge AMF, as the actual spell has a tiny radius (hint: if your wizard is within 10 feet of a hostile dragon, he is already dead, AMF or not).

So you're saying the trick is to balance it out by having ghosts and golems in the same encounter?

[Larkas]

Okay, guys, you're getting way off-topic. I want fighter-friendly monsters. I don't care what kind of effect they might have on the rest of the party. This is something I can balance myself. So please, if you have nothing to add, just don't derail the thread.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I seem to recall using some Spellwarped (MM3) creatures to not bad effect - be sure to grab a base creature with a high HD:CR ratio.

[Ranting Fool]

I've always been a fan of Bloodhulks MM4. High HP and Low AC. Take extra damage from slashing and piercing weapons. Not weak to Casters but anyone who does lots of hits loves fighting these guys (mainly because I've always played them as spraying blood everywhere when they get hit any by the end anyone within 15ft is soaked through :smallbiggrin: fun times explaining that to the local guards)

[TopCheese]

There was a Rage Snail or something like that... Its shell had a "reflect" like property that is pretty cool. It is a Pathfinder monster... But it may have been 3.5 at one point.

I love to alter monsters. Sure players like Answerer would just be appalled that their wizard's skill check failed to mention that a monster has been altered by a BBEG/Random Wizard/Random Whatever Wrong with Nature. But then again I like to make my players work for some things and not just roll d20's and throw spells around.

[Larkas]

I seem to recall using some Spellwarped (MM3) creatures to not bad effect - be sure to grab a base creature with a high HD:CR ratio.


I've always been a fan of Bloodhulks MM4. High HP and Low AC. Take extra damage from slashing and piercing weapons. Not weak to Casters but anyone who does lots of hits loves fighting these guys (mainly because I've always played them as spraying blood everywhere when they get hit any by the end anyone within 15ft is soaked through :smallbiggrin: fun times explaining that to the local guards)

Aw, it would've been great to make a Spellwarped Bloodhusk! Too bad they're not compatible, it would have great synergy! Great finds, guys!


There was a Rage Snail or something like that... Its shell had a "reflect" like property that is pretty cool. It is a Pathfinder monster... But it may have been 3.5 at one point.

I love to alter monsters. Sure players like Answerer would just be appalled that their wizard's skill check failed to mention that a monster has been altered by a BBEG/Random Wizard/Random Whatever Wrong with Nature. But then again I like to make my players work for some things and not just roll d20's and throw spells around.

You mean Flail Snail (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/flailSnail.html)? NEAT! I had never seen that one before! Very reminiscent of Final Fantasy VI's first boss! Great find too!

[Tanngrisnir]

Yeah, I'm sure the casters really enjoyed showing up to the table and being told "yeah, you guys don't get to play today." :smallfurious: That kind of DMing is just atrocious. Especially since for the conclusion you describe to be true, it must be a DM-fiat perfect and huge AMF, as the actual spell has a tiny radius (hint: if your wizard is within 10 feet of a hostile dragon, he is already dead, AMF or not).

They loved the encounter. They loved coming up against something that shook them up, that made them realise they were not the be all and end all, and it was great for roleplay. We all had a great time and still talk about that fight 7 years on.

So Larkas, if you have decently mature players, who can handle this sort of thing without complaining, it works really well.

[Answerer]

So Larkas, if you have decently mature players, who can handle this sort of thing without complaining, it works really well.
Pfft, it is precisely because I am "mature" (which I'm taking literally in terms of physical development and stage of life rather than as a normative judgment of myself, because I'm not interested in feeding) that being told to "sit out" is so vehemently unacceptable. I am an adult. I have a very busy life. I do not easily come up with 4+ hours of free time in one sitting, and committing to a game is easy neither for me nor for the others around the table. When I do that, I expect the opportunity to play. And yes, my preferences for playing include actually contributing to the results of the group's actions in some fashion; I didn't join the cheerleading team in high school and I have no desire to roleplay one during my limited free time.

[Tanngrisnir]

Pfft, it is precisely because I am "mature" (which I'm taking literally in terms of physical development and stage of life rather than as a normative judgment of myself, because I'm not interested in feeding) that being told to "sit out" is so vehemently unacceptable. I am an adult. I have a very busy life. I do not easily come up with 4+ hours of free time in one sitting, and committing to a game is easy neither for me nor for the others around the table. When I do that, I expect the opportunity to play. And yes, my preferences for playing include actually contributing to the results of the group's actions in some fashion; I didn't join the cheerleading team in high school and I have no desire to roleplay one during my limited free time.

Answerer, my previous post was an attempt to get back to the topic Larkas wants to discuss. If you wish to continue this discussion with me, feel free to PM me and we'll hash it out there. Larkas has asked people to not derail from the topic of finding 'Fighter friendly monsters,' so it would be respectful to stop bringing in your view on being left out. It's not what he is after, and is not what the thread is for.

Larkas, do you know roughly the build of the fighter that is likely to be run in a game you would host? Knowing that might help us find a few creatures suited to be weak against it.

[Metahuman1]

NPC humanoids with levels in classes that are also mundane and perhaps Items that juice up saves and SR? Maybe a place were they can get a stead supply of scrolls or potions of things that juice them but that you'd very obviously have to be entirely suicidele to even think of robbing or attacking, like a temple with high level clerics or something?

That way you don't Break WBL, but you also have bad guys that have ability's that can challenge the fighter but not overwhelm him and who the casters have a real hard time trivializing.

[Kuulvheysoon]

NPC humanoids with levels in classes that are also mundane and perhaps Items that juice up saves and SR? Maybe a place were they can get a stead supply of scrolls or potions of things that juice them but that you'd very obviously have to be entirely suicidele to even think of robbing or attacking, like a temple with high level clerics or something?

That way you don't Break WBL, but you also have bad guys that have ability's that can challenge the fighter but not overwhelm him and who the casters have a real hard time trivializing.

NPC humanoids with the half-golem template (either pre- or post-failing Will save) could be other interesting opponents.

Dragon Magic might be another resource - a beefed-up Spelleater (it's CR14 with a SR of 22) would be interesting. Better yet, the Velroc (same book) is a CR12 with SR 21, and can hijack the spell if you fail to overcome it's SR. Jack up the SR so your casters have a decent chance to fail and watch them pale in horror. And the magic distortion aura can play hell with them if they (stupidly) forgot to max Spellcraft.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The problem is there really aren't many monsters that are truly good for melee and bad for casters. Even the ones billed as such, like golems, tend to be worse for melee than casters.

Outsiders in general is probably the best bet. Specifically, outsiders with lots of SR and flight, but no ranged options/SLAs to exploit their flight on.

Underdark-based enemies in general offer a surprising amount of creatures with high SR. Beholders can shut down a caster quite well, albeit they're no better at harassing mages than fighters.

I would design monsters from scratch. Beefy with flight, but melee based. High SR, high saves. Mettle (not Evasion though, blasting isn't broken). Reflective Carapace. Mage Slayer feats. Able to teleport and true see. Stuff like that.

[Story]

Dragon Magic might be another resource - a beefed-up Spelleater (it's CR14 with a SR of 22) would be interesting. Better yet, the Velroc (same book) is a CR12 with SR 21, and can hijack the spell if you fail to overcome it's SR. Jack up the SR so your casters have a decent chance to fail and watch them pale in horror. And the magic distortion aura can play hell with them if they (stupidly) forgot to max Spellcraft.

What is considered good SR? Enough to give an equal level caster a 30-40% chance of failing? Because Arcane Mastery makes that useless.

[TopCheese]

You mean Flail Snail (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/flailSnail.html)? NEAT! I had never seen that one before! Very reminiscent of Final Fantasy VI's first boss! Great find too!

"Yuuup"

I love the name of them too... I just don't remember their name.. Like ever hahaha.

[ksbsnowowl]

Hmmm, those might work! Know of any strong native outsider? Being subject to banishment is a huge weak spot, unfortunately.

Tanarukk, Monsters of Faerun/Races of Faerun. The monster advancement rules allow you to put 5 levels of non-warrior classes on it for a mere +2 to CR. A tanarukk rogue 5, for example, is CR 4, has 10 HD, and SR 19.

Every level beyond that adds +1 CR and +1 SR.

But remember that NPC class levels are always non-associated.

[rot42]

The Fellmist Robe soulmeld (MoI 66) grants concealment vs. everything except adjacent. Can help if your fighters like to go toe to toe with non-reach weapons while your casters hang back and use targeted spells. Available via feat or a level of Incarnate.

[JaronK]

Golems are always a great Fighter enemy without feeling too arbitrary. Consider making an adventure where the enemy is a cabal of Abjurers (the UA variant version that gets bonuses to dispelling) who are building up an army of golems. They've got lots of dispelling, so the casters can deal with them but still have a fight, while the Golems are what the Fighters need to handle.

JaronK

[Vaz]

Unearthed Arcana has the Naturalized Denizen Feat. Backstory it being hit by a Dimensional Anchor, and you're off. Makes an Outsider Natural rather than Extraplanar.

"I banish the marilith"
"It has no effect..."
"i try again..." #max roll "howzat????"
"it still has no effect"

[AlanBruce]

If you want your fighter to have a fun and long battle (ideally without caster help), go fight a Skin Dancer (MM3). Those things hit hard and can take a lot of punishment. They cast no spells, but their SQ make them hard to take down. A good fight for any melee character aching for a decent spar.

Just make sure you have a decent bow, hammer, and sword at your disposal.

[Ranting Fool]

I've found wraiths to be quite good but that was partly because the casters spells either didn't hit (very high touch AC and 50% miss chance for being ghostly things) though they did do things like cast haste and ghost touch weapon on the melee... that and nasty fort saves make mages cower behind the meatshields :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

[Larkas]

Larkas, do you know roughly the build of the fighter that is likely to be run in a game you would host? Knowing that might help us find a few creatures suited to be weak against it.

I must confess, "Fighter" was used in a more general sense than the class itself. :smallbiggrin: There are two players I intend to cater to with this information: One is playing a fairly unoptimized Fighter, pumping AC and all, but is at least using a Greatsword with Power Attack, and has been charging whenever she can. The other is playing a Monk. Again, this is fairly unoptimized, but he's focusing on Dex, using Weapon Finesse and all, and I've shown him the Shadow Blade feat. He's ecstatic about it, so I think I will let him retrain his last feat to get Martial Study and go for Shadow Blade in the next opportunity he has. We are at a point in the game where Pounce is not yet necessary, but as we are drawing closer to it, I think I'll throw them a couple of items of Lion's Charge soon.


NPC humanoids with the half-golem template (either pre- or post-failing Will save) could be other interesting opponents.

Dragon Magic might be another resource - a beefed-up Spelleater (it's CR14 with a SR of 22) would be interesting. Better yet, the Velroc (same book) is a CR12 with SR 21, and can hijack the spell if you fail to overcome it's SR. Jack up the SR so your casters have a decent chance to fail and watch them pale in horror. And the magic distortion aura can play hell with them if they (stupidly) forgot to max Spellcraft.

Hey, great ideas! The half-golem is specially useful, since it is expected to have character classes, so I can make them as tough as they need to be. The others are great ways to keep casters on their toes and make the mundanes feel useful!


The problem is there really aren't many monsters that are truly good for melee and bad for casters. Even the ones billed as such, like golems, tend to be worse for melee than casters.

Outsiders in general is probably the best bet. Specifically, outsiders with lots of SR and flight, but no ranged options/SLAs to exploit their flight on.

Underdark-based enemies in general offer a surprising amount of creatures with high SR. Beholders can shut down a caster quite well, albeit they're no better at harassing mages than fighters.

I would design monsters from scratch. Beefy with flight, but melee based. High SR, high saves. Mettle (not Evasion though, blasting isn't broken). Reflective Carapace. Mage Slayer feats. Able to teleport and true see. Stuff like that.

Indeed. Designing the monsters might also be a great idea. Any pointers regarding templates and such? I can always brew something from scratch, but I'm terrible to adjudicate CR. :smallfrown: Anyways, flight AND melee based is a great combination! Wyverns, perhaps?


What is considered good SR? Enough to give an equal level caster a 30-40% chance of failing? Because Arcane Mastery makes that useless.

I'm thinking more 60-70%. The casters can always buff the melee guys, after all.


"Yuuup"

I love the name of them too... I just don't remember their name.. Like ever hahaha.

I'll have to tweak that thing so that it matches said boss perfectly now! :smallbiggrin:


Tanarukk, Monsters of Faerun/Races of Faerun. The monster advancement rules allow you to put 5 levels of non-warrior classes on it for a mere +2 to CR. A tanarukk rogue 5, for example, is CR 4, has 10 HD, and SR 19.

Every level beyond that adds +1 CR and +1 SR.

But remember that NPC class levels are always non-associated.

OH! Totally forgot about Tanarukks! Great catch! And, like half-golems, I can tweak them to be as strong as they need to be! And if NPC classes are always non-associated... Well, a BSF Tanarukk might actually have several warrior levels: +1/2 CR = +1 SR! :smallamused:


The Fellmist Robe soulmeld (MoI 66) grants concealment vs. everything except adjacent. Can help if your fighters like to go toe to toe with non-reach weapons while your casters hang back and use targeted spells. Available via feat or a level of Incarnate.

Hey, I've used that one in a character once! Great catch! Screws ranged characters, however, but that shouldn't be an issue with this group.


Golems are always a great Fighter enemy without feeling too arbitrary. Consider making an adventure where the enemy is a cabal of Abjurers (the UA variant version that gets bonuses to dispelling) who are building up an army of golems. They've got lots of dispelling, so the casters can deal with them but still have a fight, while the Golems are what the Fighters need to handle.

JaronK

GREAT idea! I'll have to carefully select the golems, however. But anyways, that is what I was talking about when I mentioned balanced the encounters: throw stuff for the casters to handle, while the gritty stuff are up to the mundanes. It doesn't even have to be all about battling: the Fighters can be kicking some butt while the casters have to handle some kind of magic device before it goes out!


Unearthed Arcana has the Naturalized Denizen Feat. Backstory it being hit by a Dimensional Anchor, and you're off. Makes an Outsider Natural rather than Extraplanar.

"I banish the marilith"
"It has no effect..."
"i try again..." #max roll "howzat????"
"it still has no effect"

Huh! I've never seen that one before! Great way to make a demon general viable under these conditions!


If you want your fighter to have a fun and long battle (ideally without caster help), go fight a Skin Dancer (MM3). Those things hit hard and can take a lot of punishment. They cast no spells, but their SQ make them hard to take down. A good fight for any melee character aching for a decent spar.

Just make sure you have a decent bow, hammer, and sword at your disposal.

Man, I really have to peruse the other Monster Manuals. They have lots of interesting stuff! I just need to give them SR... Spellwarped Skin Dancers? Neat! :smallbiggrin:


I've found wraiths to be quite good but that was partly because the casters spells either didn't hit (very high touch AC and 50% miss chance for being ghostly things) though they did do things like cast haste and ghost touch weapon on the melee... that and nasty fort saves make mages cower behind the meatshields :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

THAT is team synergy, and is what I'm aiming at. Great idea too!

[KhaineGB]

Hmmm, those might work! Know of any strong native outsider? Being subject to banishment is a huge weak spot, unfortunately.

Exiled Demon.

They can't summon any of their kind, but as they are exiled from their home plane, they count as native outsiders.

Nabthatoron from The Shackled City adventure path is a good example of an exiled demon. His Native status isn't mentioned in the dragon magazine version of the adventure, but it is mentioned in the 3.5 updated reprint version (there was a book version done).

[TopCheese]

I must confess, "Fighter" was used in a more general sense than the class itself. :smallbiggrin: There are two players I intend to cater to with this information: One is playing a fairly unoptimized Fighter, pumping AC and all, but is at least using a Greatsword with Power Attack, and has been charging whenever she can. The other is playing a Monk. Again, this is fairly unoptimized, but he's focusing on Dex, using Weapon Finesse and all, and I've shown him the Shadow Blade feat. He's ecstatic about it, so I think I will let him retrain his last feat to get Martial Study and go for Shadow Blade in the next opportunity he has. We are at a point in the game where Pounce is not yet necessary, but as we are drawing closer to it, I think I'll throw them a couple of items of Lion's Charge soon.



Hey, great ideas! The half-golem is specially useful, since it is expected to have character classes, so I can make them as tough as they need to be. The others are great ways to keep casters on their toes and make the mundanes feel useful!



Indeed. Designing the monsters might also be a great idea. Any pointers regarding templates and such? I can always brew something from scratch, but I'm terrible to adjudicate CR. :smallfrown: Anyways, flight AND melee based is a great combination! Wyverns, perhaps?



I'm thinking more 60-70%. The casters can always buff the melee guys, after all.



I'll have to tweak that thing so that it matches said boss perfectly now! :smallbiggrin:



OH! Totally forgot about Tanarukks! Great catch! And, like half-golems, I can tweak them to be as strong as they need to be! And if NPC classes are always non-associated... Well, a BSF Tanarukk might actually have several warrior levels: +1/2 CR = +1 SR! :smallamused:



Hey, I've used that one in a character once! Great catch! Screws ranged characters, however, but that shouldn't be an issue with this group.



GREAT idea! I'll have to carefully select the golems, however. But anyways, that is what I was talking about when I mentioned balanced the encounters: throw stuff for the casters to handle, while the gritty stuff are up to the mundanes. It doesn't even have to be all about battling: the Fighters can be kicking some butt while the casters have to handle some kind of magic device before it goes out!



Huh! I've never seen that one before! Great way to make a demon general viable under these conditions!



Man, I really have to peruse the other Monster Manuals. They have lots of interesting stuff! I just need to give them SR... Spellwarped Skin Dancers? Neat! :smallbiggrin:



Always great to make bosses based on other stuff.

I made a mindflayer that wore a construct that would reflect most everything except sonic damage.... The fighter was the only one with a sonic weapon but as soon as they opened up the construct the mind flayer was vulnerable. I overheard the fighter saying how he was going to take mountain hammer as a warblade so his sonic sword would be like a screwdriver... Open anything...

Yeah when the guy attacked I played a youtube clip of a Dalek saying "Exterminate!" ..... It actually made a couple ppl jump (the ones that never watched Dr Who).

I'm a bastard like that. :p

Note: My phone didn't quote all of your last response.. weird...

[Story]

Are you sure advancement works like that? I thought SR normally advanced by CR, not HD.

[Larkas]

Exiled Demon.

They can't summon any of their kind, but as they are exiled from their home plane, they count as native outsiders.

Nabthatoron from The Shackled City adventure path is a good example of an exiled demon. His Native status isn't mentioned in the dragon magazine version of the adventure, but it is mentioned in the 3.5 updated reprint version (there was a book version done).

Hmmm, that works too. Is that a template present in any book?


Always great to make bosses based on other stuff.

I made a mindflayer that wore a construct that would reflect most everything except sonic damage.... The fighter was the only one with a sonic weapon but as soon as they opened up the construct the mind flayer was vulnerable. I overheard the fighter saying how he was going to take mountain hammer as a warblade so his sonic sword would be like a screwdriver... Open anything...

Yeah when the guy attacked I played a youtube clip of a Dalek saying "Exterminate!" ..... It actually made a couple ppl jump (the ones that never watched Dr Who).

I'm a bastard like that. :p

Note: My phone didn't quote all of your last response.. weird...

Hahahahaha, great idea, if a bit cheesy. I will see if that's feasible, anyways, since I'm sure my players will love to face a mecha some day! :smallbiggrin: If the Illithid can still cast/manifest stuff from inside the golem, however, that is not Fighter-friendly at all. :smallfrown:


Are you sure advancement works like that? I thought SR normally advanced by CR, not HD.

SR is pretty much always advanced by hit die or class levels. I must confess I've never seen any mention of CR anywhere.

[Story]

How come older dragons don't get SR along with their HDs then? One of the few cases of explicit advancement and their SR actually increases more slowly than CR, let alone HD.

If monsters were supposed to get insane SR just by growing larger, you'd think there'd be at least one printed monster with an insane SR.

[Larkas]

How come older dragons don't get SR along with their HDs then? One of the few cases of explicit advancement and their SR actually increases more slowly than CR, let alone HD.

If monsters were supposed to get insane SR just by growing larger, you'd think there'd be at least one printed monster with an insane SR.

Because true dragons' SR advance by age category only. Races that advance by class have it tied to class level only (see drow and tanarukk and even hound archons). Spellwarped creatures have it tied to their HD, which I'm sure other monsters that advance by racial HD also do. You managed to find the only exception to the rule that I know of :smallbiggrin: But even then, it doesn't scale by CR.

[Answerer]

There are definitely cases of static SR, though, that don't advance at all.

Really, the way SR is defined is pretty dumb; IMO it should be a number added to your HD (so SR 5 gives you protection against a roll lower than 5 by an equi-level caster).

[Larkas]

There are definitely cases of static SR, though, that don't advance at all.

Really, the way SR is defined is pretty dumb; IMO it should be a number added to your HD (so SR 5 gives you protection against a roll lower than 5 by an equi-level caster).

Indeed, that would greatly facilitate things.

[Story]

The problem is that a lot of monsters have HD much higher than their CR. Just because Turn Undead is broken doesn't mean you have to break Spell Resistance too.

[ksbsnowowl]

Are you sure advancement works like that? I thought SR normally advanced by CR, not HD.

Races of Faerun, p. 124

Tanarukks have the following racial traits:
...
• Spell resistance of 14 + class level.

Do you want me to quote the SRD on non-associated class levels, too?
:amused:

[Twilightwyrm]

I would note that this approach is somewhat problematic if applied to all monsters, as it makes being any sort of arcane magic-using character rather frustrating. However, if you want some monsters in the group the party is fighting that the mundane characters are going to be handling, you could always give them Arcanist Blind Armor. It's a specific type of Bane Blind Armor, applied to Arcanists as per the Complete Mage alternative favored enemy. Three times per day, as a swift action, the wearer can become imperceptible to anyone capable of using any arcane magic or invocations (via the wording, this may include SLAs that mimic arcane spells). Of particular note, the ability mentions that they are imperceptible (not merely invisible), meaning that conventional counters such as True Seeing and Blindsense/Blindsight/Mindsight don't work.
Note that this doesn't necessarily make the opponent more Fighter-friendly per se, as rogues, barbarians, warblades and barring a home brewed version for divine casters, druids and clerics will be able to perceive the opponents just fine. But, if encouraging wizards, sorcerers, or even Duskblades to focus on a different target, at least until the creature attacks, this may help.

[TopCheese]

Hmmm, that works too. Is that a template present in any book?



Hahahahaha, great idea, if a bit cheesy. I will see if that's feasible, anyways, since I'm sure my players will love to face a mecha some day! :smallbiggrin: If the Illithid can still cast/manifest stuff from inside the golem, however, that is not Fighter-friendly at all. :smallfrown:



SR is pretty much always advanced by hit die or class levels. I must confess I've never seen any mention of CR anywhere.

It eventually did open and it could cast however it was by time to let the casters shine...

One got a kick out of counter spelling.... The other spent the battle trying to mind rape the "dalek"...

[StreamOfTheSky]

I would note that this approach is somewhat problematic if applied to all monsters, as it makes being any sort of arcane magic-using character rather frustrating.

I can attest to that. As I said, the DM in our high level game uses advanced HD outsiders all the time and their SR is always impossible. Thankfully, the DM didn't ban shapechange, so I just hurl Su attacks at enemies along with the occasional Glitterdust or Grease...

I had never actually seen a DM use the monster advancement rules much at all till this game. It's opened my eyes to how horrifically broken the monster advancement system is. (It's not just the SR; a cornugon we fought at level 17 had his Stun ability on every hit with a DC of thirty-freaking-seven!)

[Twilightwyrm]

I can attest to that. As I said, the DM in our high level game uses advanced HD outsiders all the time and their SR is always impossible. Thankfully, the DM didn't ban shapechange, so I just hurl Su attacks at enemies along with the occasional Glitterdust or Grease...

I had never actually seen a DM use the monster advancement rules much at all till this game. It's opened my eyes to how horrifically broken the monster advancement system is. (It's not just the SR; a cornugon we fought at level 17 had his Stun ability on every hit with a DC of thirty-freaking-seven!)

Well damn, that does sound rather frustrating. To be fair though, Outsiders are generally a pain in the ass for pretty much everyone. Between various combinations of the ability to fly, teleport at will, have high DR, and have telepathy and true seeing always on, you almost have to run through a checklist of counter-measures every time you fight the bloody things just to get them to stay in place long enough to kill them.

[Synovia]

[Yeah, I'm sure the casters really enjoyed showing up to the table and being told "yeah, you guys don't get to play today." :smallfurious: That kind of DMing is just atrocious. Especially since for the conclusion you describe to be true, it must be a DM-fiat perfect and huge AMF, as the actual spell has a tiny radius (hint: if your wizard is within 10 feet of a hostile dragon, he is already dead, AMF or not).
And I'm sure the fighter enjoys the 2/3 of other games where he shows up and is useless.

Fighters run into things they can't handle all the time. Wizards should have to do the same thing.

[Answerer]

And I'm sure the fighter enjoys the 2/3 of other games where he shows up and is useless.

Fighters run into things they can't handle all the time. Wizards should have to do the same thing.
No, the Fighter class should be banned/modified so that situation does not happen.

Everyone should get to play the overwhelming majority of the time. It is my strongly-held belief that anyone who tells a player they don't get to do anything is a bad DM.

[ArcturusV]

A lot of times though the "I can't do anything" is more a result of a player not being able to think outside the box.

For example, I had a player recently who was doing a prisoner stint due to massive failure against his captors. The player in question basically just kept saying "I wait..." because he couldn't think of a way to get out of the situation he was in. He figured it was impossible to do anything and that he just had to wait until a PC came to rescue him or I dropped some Deus Ex Machina on his head.

Even though I provided more than ample ideas that, if he bothered examining them, he might have come up with some idea. This even included talking to the other NPCs who were chained up with him. Which he didn't until eventually I got so tired of him saying "I wait" that I forced them to talk to him. The chains were anchored poorly enough that if he had tried to muscle them free from the wall, he could have (But never occurred to him, again, until I handed him the answer on a plate). Could have tried picking a lock with an improvised lock pick like one of the large splinters of wood available (Again didn't think to try until I told him). Could have asked the other prisoners for some help/ideas (Which I had to instigate). Could have tried to cut a deal with a jailer and sweet talk him into a more favorable position (again, didn't think to ask). Could have tried to use the chains after he freed himself as a weapon (Again, didn't think of it, thought he'd have to barehand it). Could have tried to arm some of the fellow prisoners with the chains, maybe shattered some of the furniture for improvised weapons so they could help him fight (never occurred to him, though he did suggest they all basically charge armed warriors barehanded to give him enough time to escape. They weren't too keen on that idea.).

Most anti-magic counters I see are usually of a quality where if the wizard pondered it for a bit, he could probably counter or contribute in some meaningful way. They just don't and get too hung up on SR or AMFs they can't pierce and give up. The same cannot be said for non-magical characters.

[SimonMoon6]

Yeah, I'm sure the casters really enjoyed showing up to the table and being told "yeah, you guys don't get to play today."

Yeah, besides I thought that's what golems were for. Nothing says, "Hey you don't get to play" like a monster that's immune to all spells (except a few but you probably don't remember which ones and you might not have them anyway).

Of course, a golem also tells the rogues that they don't get to play either. I remember playing a rogue once, so the DM sent us after nothing but golems and undead. (Sneak attack? nah, you won't be doing that. Ever.) When I played a psion (telepath)? Same thing. (Mind-affecting abilities? Nah, you won't be using those.)

[Flickerdart]

I've had a good experience with using Astral Constructs. Not dudes that summon Astral Constructs, just the Constructs themselves. They're very customizable, can have PR starting at CR 8, and have the option of increasing their AC with deflection bonuses to make touch attacks harder to land. A fort-based poison option ensures that casters don't want to get anywhere near this thing.
Of course, they're also utter beasts in melee, with good AC for their CR, massive Strength, large size at CR 5, combat maneuver options...the only thing they don't do that well is deal damage, so make sure to give them the Power Attack option once they can afford to ditch some to-hit.

[Synovia]

No, the Fighter class should be banned/modified so that situation does not happen.

Everyone should get to play the overwhelming majority of the time. It is my strongly-held belief that anyone who tells a player they don't get to do anything is a bad DM.

Right, but there's absolutely no way to tell a wizard "you can't play". There's ALWAYS something they can do.

The same can't be said about melee characters.

[Rogue Shadows]

Really, I find that even full spellcasting monsters like dragons can still make good foes against fighters as long as their spell choices are sub-par. Things like fireball and meteor swarm - things that the fighter can take but which still lend to a cinematic battle.

Fighters don't have trouble hitting things they can reach, dealing tons of damage, or surviving tons of damage, so if that's all the opponents are doing then you should be good to go as a fighter.

Oh, as to the "wizards should play" idea...gimme the wizard's spell list and I'll give you a list of things he could have done against the AMF'd dragon.

(By the way, an antimagic field is a 10-foot radius centered on the caster, right? That's 5 squares by 5 squares, IIRC - more than enough space for a creature of up to Colossal size. So the AMF was big enough for a dragon of any size, technically).

[Flickerdart]

surviving tons of damage
That's...arguable, especially since the best way to deal tons of damage also involves dumping your AC into the negatives. A d10 HD and heavy armour prof don't nearly go far enough to make someone good at taking hits.

[Rogue Shadows]

That's...arguable, especially since the best way to deal tons of damage also involves dumping your AC into the negatives. A d10 HD and heavy armour prof don't nearly go far enough to make someone good at taking hits.

I'm presuming things like amulet of health and other HP-boosters, plus damage reduction, plus all the other nifty little things that a mid-to-high range fighter should be wearing, not a fighter all by his lonesome.

[Flickerdart]

I'm presuming things like amulet of health and other HP-boosters, plus damage reduction, plus all the other nifty little things that a mid-to-high range fighter should be wearing.
Where is he getting enough DR to matter, and how do items make him any better at taking hits than anyone else?

[Vaz]

Having nothing else to focus his WBL on means he can afford at 20th to take a magic weapon, shield and armour valued at 200K each.

a wizard has to spend his on scrolls staffs, stat boosters, etc.

Admittedly he can wall of salt his WBL out the wazoo, but heyho. I do get where you are coming from though.

[Flickerdart]

Having nothing else to focus his WBL on means he can afford at 20th to take a magic weapon, shield and armour valued at 200K each.

Wrong. Fighters need to grab tons of magic items to increase their versatility, mobility, and lots of other things that end in -ility.



a wizard has to spend his on scrolls staffs, stat boosters, etc.

Also wrong. Why does a wizard "have" to do any of those things? Scrolls are consumables and don't factor into WBL, staffs are not even useful for many things, and stat boosters are not only cheap, but also necessary for the Fighter.

[Rogue Shadows]

Look, I didn't say that the fighter can compete with the wizard. I'm saying that a mid-to-high range fighter has enough WBL to survive encounters with dragons that have themselves taken suboptimal spell choices, just focusing on being "blasty."

Probably not by himself, but D&D isn't a single-player game.

Since when do scrolls not factor into WBL? Without spending money on them a wizard's spell selection is only going to consist of the spells they knew at first level plus two spells for each level after 1st, each time only from whatever their maximum spellcasting level was.

So...a 20th level wizard would, assuming they chose from their highest available spell level each time...

0: All
1st: Start +2 (probably a total of 7 or so)
2nd: 4
3rd: 4
4th: 4
5th: 4
6th: 4
7th: 4
8th: 4
9th: 8

To know any more than that, they have to blow WBL.

[Answerer]

A lot of times though the "I can't do anything" is more a result of a player not being able to think outside the box.

For example, I had a player recently who was doing a prisoner stint due to massive failure against his captors. The player in question basically just kept saying "I wait..." because he couldn't think of a way to get out of the situation he was in. He figured it was impossible to do anything and that he just had to wait until a PC came to rescue him or I dropped some Deus Ex Machina on his head.

Even though I provided more than ample ideas that, if he bothered examining them, he might have come up with some idea. This even included talking to the other NPCs who were chained up with him. Which he didn't until eventually I got so tired of him saying "I wait" that I forced them to talk to him. The chains were anchored poorly enough that if he had tried to muscle them free from the wall, he could have (But never occurred to him, again, until I handed him the answer on a plate). Could have tried picking a lock with an improvised lock pick like one of the large splinters of wood available (Again didn't think to try until I told him). Could have asked the other prisoners for some help/ideas (Which I had to instigate). Could have tried to cut a deal with a jailer and sweet talk him into a more favorable position (again, didn't think to ask). Could have tried to use the chains after he freed himself as a weapon (Again, didn't think of it, thought he'd have to barehand it). Could have tried to arm some of the fellow prisoners with the chains, maybe shattered some of the furniture for improvised weapons so they could help him fight (never occurred to him, though he did suggest they all basically charge armed warriors barehanded to give him enough time to escape. They weren't too keen on that idea.).

Most anti-magic counters I see are usually of a quality where if the wizard pondered it for a bit, he could probably counter or contribute in some meaningful way. They just don't and get too hung up on SR or AMFs they can't pierce and give up. The same cannot be said for non-magical characters.
That is not the player's failure, but yours: it is the DM's job to engage all of the players. As soon as the player actively started describing his turn as "I wait," you should have taken action to bring him back into the game. Not waited until you got tired of hearing him say it. Because "I wait" is a hint (a really obvious one) that the player in question is not enjoying himself. And guess what the DM's job is?

Look, it's very simple. One should not think "I am the DM, I have all this power, therefore I control the game and the players should do what I want." One should think "I am the DM, I have a responsibility to control the game, and I'm given extra authority to make that happen." If you have a player who is not involved and not enjoying himself, you are failing as a DM.

And no, I don't care that you don't think much of his problem-solving skills. That's utterly irrelevant. D&D is not a test. OK, it would have been cooler if he'd solved it on his own, he would have had more fun that way. Clearly, though, he wasn't going to.

Hell, did you even bother to say to him, out of character after he first said "I wait," that yes, there were things he could do to get out of there? Or did you leave him assuming there was no way out? Because he certainly seemed convinced there was not. It reflects poorly on your DMing in general, for that matter, that your player would assume you'd put him in time-out.


Right, but there's absolutely no way to tell a wizard "you can't play". There's ALWAYS something they can do.

The same can't be said about melee characters.
Oh, DM fiat can do it quite well. For example, "You are in a Dead Magic Zone that extends indefinitely in all directions, and nothing you do can get rid of it." Unless they're 17+ and did not ban Evocation and prepared invoke magic and are prepared to do combat without any spells over 4th-level and without swift actions, yes, they are out of the game. So in a high-enough level game where they were given warning that such things could happen, yes, it could be reasonable enough. But I did not get the impression that this was the case here. I got the impression that they were reduced to firing a crossbow, if that, because all magic was turned off.

A DM who did that would be getting what he'd asked for if the next caster someone rolls up is the Cheater of Mystra.

[Flickerdart]

Look, I didn't say that the fighter can compete with the wizard. I'm saying that a mid-to-high range fighter has enough WBL to survive encounters with dragons that have themselves taken suboptimal spell choices, just focusing on being "blasty."

Probably not by himself, but D&D isn't a single-player game.
What you said was that fighters don't have trouble "surviving tons of damage". Which is not, in fact, the case.



Since when do scrolls not factor into WBL?

Because they're consumables. The WBL rules are more than just a table, y'know.



Without spending money on them a wizard's spell selection is only going to consist of the spells they knew at first level plus two spells for each level after 1st, each time only from whatever their maximum spellcasting level was.

So...a 20th level wizard would, assuming they chose from their highest available spell level each time...

0: All
1st: Start +2 (probably a total of 7 or so)
2nd: 4
3rd: 4
4th: 4
5th: 4
6th: 4
7th: 4
8th: 4
9th: 8

To know any more than that, they have to blow WBL.
Or they can buy a Blessed Book and then trade spells with other wizards, thereby incurring minimal costs. Or they can kill other casters and take their books. Or they can take Collegiate Wizard and those other feats that give you free scribed spells. Or they can just make do with knowing 2 spells per level, and still be amazing. There's no contractual obligation to buy scrolls.

[Story]

Yeah, besides I thought that's what golems were for. Nothing says, "Hey you don't get to play" like a monster that's immune to all spells (except a few but you probably don't remember which ones and you might not have them anyway).


Golems are not immune to all spells. They merely have infinite SR, which is only a minor impediment to the prepared Wizard. And even if they were truly magic immune, there's always stuff like summons, polymorphs, BC, etc.




(By the way, an antimagic field is a 10-foot radius centered on the caster, right? That's 5 squares by 5 squares, IIRC - more than enough space for a creature of up to Colossal size. So the AMF was big enough for a dragon of any size, technically).

Squares are 5x5 feet, so it's only 2 squares across. It can't fit anything larger than large.

[Answerer]

Squares are 5x5 feet, so it's only 2 squares across. It can't fit anything larger than large.
The radius is two squares, which makes the diameter four squares. It's basically a + sign: four squares in the middle, and two-square-wide, one-square-deep extensions in each of the four directions. A Huge creature could fit 8/9 squares inside; not really sure what the call there is for whether or not it can still cast spells.

[Rogue Shadows]

Squares are 5x5 feet, so it's only 2 squares across. It can't fit anything larger than large.

But it's a ten-foot radius centered on the caster (or in this case the amulet), meaning that it reached out from the caster in all directions 10 feet, giving us a 20-foot diameter. Since the caster/amulet himself occupies one square and that one square, IIRC, counts as "zero,: this fills a total of 25 squares:

http://i45.tinypic.com/nec6mf.png

So assuming that the amulet is roughly in the center of the dragon's space, the AMF still has enough of a range to include the entirety of the dragon. Assuming a Colossal dragon with a space of 5x5 squares, anyway.

Indeed, it might not be illogical to assume that it's 10'-radius centered on the caster with the caster's entire space counting as "zero," meaning that the AMF actually tends for an additional 10 feet beyond what was shown above.

[Flickerdart]

" Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field. "

So a Huge creature capable of casting spells could just cast them in the space that it's got free, and spells targeted at it could be aimed at that square as well.


But it's a ten-foot radius centered on the caster (or in this case the amulet), meaning that it reached out from the caster in all directions 10 feet, giving us a 20-foot diameter. Since the caster/amulet himself occupies one square and that one square, IIRC, counts as "zero,: this fills a total of 25 squares:

http://i45.tinypic.com/nec6mf.png

So assuming that the amulet is roughly in the center of the dragon's space, the AMF still has enough of a range to include the entirety of the dragon. Assuming a Colossal dragon with a space of 5x5 squares, anyway.

Indeed, it might not be illogical to assume that it's 10'-radius centered on the caster with the caster's entire space counting as "zero," meaning that the AMF actually tends for an additional 10 feet beyond what was shown above.
You would be right if not for the fact that you're wrong. Area is always centered on an intersection, and never on a square.

[Rogue Shadows]

You would be right if not for the fact that you're wrong. Area is always centered on an intersection, and never on a square.

Ah, fair enough, if...awkward. I think this is one place where me and D&D rules don't agree

Still, the poster only said "dragon," and didn't specify it's size. So any Medium, Large, or (most of) a Huge dragon would still be protected.

...meaning that if it was a Huge dragon parts of it could still be targeted and Answerer has nothing to complain about. Speaking of...


it is the DM's job to engage all of the players.

I disagree, or at least I partially disagree. It is the job of everyone at the table to engage everyone else at the table, not solely the DM's. Further when placed in an open-ended situation like a dungeon cell it is most certainly the player's job to come up with their own solution (and there is nothing wrong with the DM sending them to the cell to begin with, as long as it was done fairly and within the bounds of the game and the player "agreed" to go to jail by not fleeing, bluffing their way out of being caught, defeating the guards, etc.). If the player chooses to wait, that's fine, but it's not the DM's fault if the player basically chooses to not engage.

A dungeon cell is, after all, a dungeon. It's the player's own fault for not approaching it the same way he'd approach the Temple of Elemental Evil.

DM's, man...the most discriminated against player in the game. You think playing a CW Samurai means you've got it rough?

[TopCheese]

Ah, fair enough, if...awkward. I think this is one place where me and D&D rules don't agree

Same here, which is why I've always used 4e movement/area rules (burst/blast/diagonal is still 5ft) even when playing 2e.



I disagree, or at least I partially disagree. It is the job of everyone at the table to engage everyone else at the table, not solely the DM's. Further when placed in an open-ended situation like a dungeon cell it is most certainly the player's job to come up with their own solution (and there is nothing wrong with the DM sending them to the cell to begin with, as long as it was done fairly and within the bounds of the game and the player "agreed" to go to jail by not fleeing, bluffing their way out of being caught, defeating the guards, etc.). If the player chooses to wait, that's fine, but it's not the DM's fault if the player basically chooses to not engage.

A dungeon cell is, after all, a dungeon. It's the player's own fault for not approaching it the same way he'd approach the Temple of Elemental Evil.

DM's, man...the most discriminated against player in the game. You think playing a CW Samurai means you've got it rough?

*slow claps*

This is all just fantastic and is completely true. The people I play with (and myself) automatically play this way and it never really occurred to me that people thought differently in a group game... Until I got on these forums at least.

[Phaederkiel]

to get back towards the main topic:

ome things not yet mentioned:

make that adventuring day a marathon of encounters. How often will the wizard be able to go all-out? At some point, the fighter will be needed, and the wizard will have to scourge his list for some out-of-the-box ideas.
The finding of which is much more satisfying than slinging the bread and butter anyway.
Just make sure you give out ample healing. Which is simple. For example: all enemy soldiers have 1 Potion of cure moderate, which they will drink when wounded. It adds a strategical element (capture the potions before they are drunk) and fuels the fighters, while giving the wizards a lot of things to do.

make the surrounding terrain the wizards enemy. For example: very loud winds howl, forcing concentration checks and making ranged attacks (even with spells) nigh impossible. Or fight in a insect swarm. Same concentration, but when trying to fling something on a foe, a caster has a 80% chance to hit an insect.
I have a encounter I will run soon, where some homebrewed critters will attack the party in heavy underbrush. The critters are quite small, and thus are invisible to the caster if he does not stand directly next to the creature.
I secretly hope that my caster will use a fireball in the middle of the melee, burning attackers, jungle and party alike.

[Larkas]

to get back towards the main topic:

ome things not yet mentioned:

make that adventuring day a marathon of encounters. How often will the wizard be able to go all-out? At some point, the fighter will be needed, and the wizard will have to scourge his list for some out-of-the-box ideas.
The finding of which is much more satisfying than slinging the bread and butter anyway.
Just make sure you give out ample healing. Which is simple. For example: all enemy soldiers have 1 Potion of cure moderate, which they will drink when wounded. It adds a strategical element (capture the potions before they are drunk) and fuels the fighters, while giving the wizards a lot of things to do.

make the surrounding terrain the wizards enemy. For example: very loud winds howl, forcing concentration checks and making ranged attacks (even with spells) nigh impossible. Or fight in a insect swarm. Same concentration, but when trying to fling something on a foe, a caster has a 80% chance to hit an insect.
I have a encounter I will run soon, where some homebrewed critters will attack the party in heavy underbrush. The critters are quite small, and thus are invisible to the caster if he does not stand directly next to the creature.
I secretly hope that my caster will use a fireball in the middle of the melee, burning attackers, jungle and party alike.

HAHAHAHA, great ideas, all of them! Tell us how that encounter went later!

[ArcturusV]

Not really ideal ideas. The first one, just making the day longer and more encounter filled, basically only applies to low level wizards. So does "Attacking while the wizard is trying to get 8 solid hours of rest to recharge spells". Eventually spellcasters just get abilities that make them nigh untouchable during that. And at high level... well.. you don't NEED high level spells to decisively end/manipulate encounters. Clever use of even 3rd level spells can drastically alter high level encounters. And they'll have a lot of those abilities. You'd run out of HP/Curing around the same time you ran out of more offensive spells.

Concentration checks are usually a joke. Most casters I've seen have had no problem dealing with them. I don't think that's unique to my experiences either as the Concentration DCs seem a bit too low. Just doing some automatic 80% failure thing... now THAT is screw the kind of which Answerer was talking about. Not to mention really randomly flukey and might not exactly get the mileage you would want.

Now a possibly weirder option would be to have an enemy mage who was actively involved in Counterspelling. Which I almost never see happen so I'm not sure how well it plays out "on the table". But counterspelling is limited enough that a spellcaster could possibly prevent it from screwing them. But it'd require them taking time to enact some plan to avoid being counterspelled. During which time the fighters get to have some fun and show off.

[Answerer]

I disagree, or at least I partially disagree. It is the job of everyone at the table to engage everyone else at the table, not solely the DM's. Further when placed in an open-ended situation like a dungeon cell it is most certainly the player's job to come up with their own solution (and there is nothing wrong with the DM sending them to the cell to begin with, as long as it was done fairly and within the bounds of the game and the player "agreed" to go to jail by not fleeing, bluffing their way out of being caught, defeating the guards, etc.). If the player chooses to wait, that's fine, but it's not the DM's fault if the player basically chooses to not engage.

A dungeon cell is, after all, a dungeon. It's the player's own fault for not approaching it the same way he'd approach the Temple of Elemental Evil.

DM's, man...the most discriminated against player in the game. You think playing a CW Samurai means you've got it rough?
The players should try to be engaged, but ultimately an unengaged player is a problem with the game and it is the DM's job and responsibility to fix problems.

A DM ignoring a player who is unengaged is being a bad DM. Whether or not the player is being a bad player is irrelevant in judging the DM's performance.

[Larkas]

Not really ideal ideas. The first one, just making the day longer and more encounter filled, basically only applies to low level wizards. So does "Attacking while the wizard is trying to get 8 solid hours of rest to recharge spells". Eventually spellcasters just get abilities that make them nigh untouchable during that. And at high level... well.. you don't NEED high level spells to decisively end/manipulate encounters. Clever use of even 3rd level spells can drastically alter high level encounters. And they'll have a lot of those abilities. You'd run out of HP/Curing around the same time you ran out of more offensive spells.

Concentration checks are usually a joke. Most casters I've seen have had no problem dealing with them. I don't think that's unique to my experiences either as the Concentration DCs seem a bit too low. Just doing some automatic 80% failure thing... now THAT is screw the kind of which Answerer was talking about. Not to mention really randomly flukey and might not exactly get the mileage you would want.

Now a possibly weirder option would be to have an enemy mage who was actively involved in Counterspelling. Which I almost never see happen so I'm not sure how well it plays out "on the table". But counterspelling is limited enough that a spellcaster could possibly prevent it from screwing them. But it'd require them taking time to enact some plan to avoid being counterspelled. During which time the fighters get to have some fun and show off.

True that. But then again, as I've said, I'm not ignoring ideas targeted at lower-level play because... Well, that is where I am now. Wizards will no longer suffer from lack of spell slots starting at level 10 or so, right?

[ArcturusV]

Usually in my games by the time a wizard hits about level 5, maybe 6, they get into the situation where generally the party will start running out of healing before they run out of spells.

Though at low level I DO like the Nighttime/rest period attacks. It favors those who have good spots and listens (Usually skill monkeys or scouts of some flavor) and due to the wizard being tapped out and needing to, well, not do anything if he wants to be able to memorize spells tomorrow morning, means your Fighters are the go to guys to handle whatever is happening.

[Phaederkiel]

And at high level... well.. you don't NEED high level spells to decisively end/manipulate encounters. Clever use of even 3rd level spells can drastically alter high level encounters. And they'll have a lot of those abilities. You'd run out of HP/Curing around the same time you ran out of more offensive spells.


did you even read my post entirely?

a) I said specifically that the wizards would be brought back to creative use of lower level spells (which are most often prepared for utility, not for combat)
b) I gave a specific way to make sure the fighters do not run out of healing.


and, just to round that out, i never needed to attack my party during nighttime. I just make sure that they are on a tight time budget and have to think strategically about resting.
Ok, my party is not stupid enough to press the snooze button when attacking for example an opponents camp,because they know doing so WOULD give them a night attack and vastly better prepared enemies in the morning.

and a simple solution for the nighttime security spells:
the earliest offender is probably rope trick. In my campaign, there is a wujen who wanted to have an extended rope trick as her class feature spell thingy.
I told her beforehand: don't.
If she had taken it anyway, she would have found out that a big part of the game would play on a moving boat and while the rope trick remains stationary, the boat does not.
in the morning, the party would just fall into the big, phiranha-filled river.

[Vaz]

Wrong. Fighters need to grab tons of magic items to increase their versatility, mobility, and lots of other things that end in -ility.
Forgot my blue text. That was what I was assuming the post was about in any case.


Scrolls are consumables and don't factor into WBLSince when?

Looking at the DMG right now, and it has this to say about scrolls and other consumables;


As a general rule, a new character can spend no more than half her total wealth on a single item, and no more than one quarter the total wealth on consumables such as ammunition, scrolls, potions, wands, or alchemical items
So, at 20th with 760K, that's 190K on consumables max. However, you can cast 40 Spells a day not including your High Int, but assuming you have 36 (+2 Racial, +5 Level, +5 Tome, +6 Item), that's at least a further 25 IIRC. While you aren't going to need to cast 65 different spells a day (unlikely), to have the ability to swap and change according to the most relevant threat means that it's worth spending at least some of that wealth on consumables. Now, the equation for scrolls is 25xSpell LevelxCaster Level - at 190K this means you can afford a grand total of 7600 Spell LevelxCaster Level - assuming that the scrolls are bought at the earliest opportunity, this means that the costs are squared - Level 1 is 1, Level 2 is 6, etc, Level 3 is 15, all the way up to 9ths at 17 - that's 153.

At 20th, say you want 8 9th level spells - that gives you the ability to choose 6 of those 8 according to the greatest threat. That's 1224, leaving you with 6436, so on and so forth.

In addition to that, the DMG states that the price of the rewarded Wizards spellbook got from the enemy should be removed from the rewarded loot value.

[Story]

That refers to starting out with consumables. But if you start at a higher level, consumables in your backstory aren't counted towards WBL. You're specifically allotted more treasure than normal so that you have some to burn on consumables.

Anyway, people don't scribe from scrolls above 1st level if they can help it. Buying the spell from another Wizard is much cheaper.

[Greenish]

A lot of times though the "I can't do anything" is more a result of a player not being able to think outside the box.

For example, I had a player recently who was doing a prisoner stint due to massive failure against his captors. The player in question basically just kept saying "I wait..." because he couldn't think of a way to get out of the situation he was in. He figured it was impossible to do anything and that he just had to wait until a PC came to rescue him or I dropped some Deus Ex Machina on his head.

Even though I provided more than ample ideas that, if he bothered examining them, he might have come up with some idea. This even included talking to the other NPCs who were chained up with him. Which he didn't until eventually I got so tired of him saying "I wait" that I forced them to talk to him. The chains were anchored poorly enough that if he had tried to muscle them free from the wall, he could have (But never occurred to him, again, until I handed him the answer on a plate). Could have tried picking a lock with an improvised lock pick like one of the large splinters of wood available (Again didn't think to try until I told him). Could have asked the other prisoners for some help/ideas (Which I had to instigate). Could have tried to cut a deal with a jailer and sweet talk him into a more favorable position (again, didn't think to ask). Could have tried to use the chains after he freed himself as a weapon (Again, didn't think of it, thought he'd have to barehand it). Could have tried to arm some of the fellow prisoners with the chains, maybe shattered some of the furniture for improvised weapons so they could help him fight (never occurred to him, though he did suggest they all basically charge armed warriors barehanded to give him enough time to escape. They weren't too keen on that idea.).Random theory: he was used to games and DMs where, if you were imprisoned for the other PCs to save, you'd stay put no matter what you tried, because that was the DM's plot for the game. People who're used to being harshly railroaded may take a while to get accustomed to freedom.

[hymer]

Area is always centered on an intersection, and never on a square.

Really? What about when you can an invisibility sphere on a person? Or what about a paladin's aura of courage?

[Flickerdart]

Really? What about when you can an invisibility sphere on a person? Or what about a paladin's aura of courage?
Even for the invisibility sphere.


The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection.

Paladin's not a spell, though, and so works on different rules.

[hymer]

Wow, I never knew. Can the wearer of the spell move it around, I wonder? Seems to leave a few questions unanswered. Oh, well. Thanks for pointing it out!

@ Greenish: Another random theory: He was tired or otherwise distracted and didn't really want to do anything. Which, I guess, is his prerogative.

[TuggyNE]

Wow, I never knew. Can the wearer of the spell move it around, I wonder? Seems to leave a few questions unanswered. Oh, well. Thanks for pointing it out!

From the same section:
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates...

And I believe there's clarification elsewhere that for a spell that's "centered on you", you select one of the intersections around your square.

[Togo]

Try ghouls and ghasts, make some of them spellstiched to give them a ranged option. They're high damage, low toughness creatures, that have a special ability that targets Fort save. That's the kind of thing you should be aiming for in a monster. Wizards can do a lot of hp damage, but the builds that cause you the most trouble won't do so. So you want lots of damage, lots of sneaking around (wizards don't tend to have good spot or listen but rely on spells that negate invisibility, which doesn't work against hide), lots of immunities, and a high damage to hit point ratio. Start with abberrations, and move onto monstrous humanoids with class levels (thus giving them enough magic equipment to counter the most obvious spell tactics).

More generally, wizards work by advanced preparation, so you need to limit that if you're going to challenge them. Make sure the plot provides a deadline so they can't just choose to rest when they feel like it. Make sure they don't find out what they're facing until after they've learned spells for the day. Don't make it obvious how many encounters there will be in a given day. Make sure your encounter come at different times of the day, so that they can't clear them all out with the same set of 10 min per level buffs. Disguise your monsters, either literally or by making it unclear what the greatest threat is. A good anti-wizard encounter is three opponents, one melee, one ranged, one hiding out of sight, and with no obvious signs which one is actually the bulk of the CR. Obviously knowledge checks come into play here, but if all three are normally weak monsters, but one is advanced and has class levels, then there's still a problem for them, and one that is tactically interesting for wizard players to solve.

Another point is to use cat and simple obstacle encounters.

A 'cat' encounter is simply an event that will put players on their guard. A rustling in the bushes, a suspicious movement at the edge of their visual range, or a cat rushing out into the road. The more a character relies on paranoia and spellcasting, the more resources such an event will consume, even though there is not technically an encounter at all.

'Simple obstacle' encounters are similar. A simple pit across the dungeon corridor can be a real problem at low level. It may be relatively easy to circumvent will a decent climb or rope use check, but spellcasters tend to consume resources to progress.

At higher levels these are more problematical, because they tend to just use low-level spells. So you need to switch to targeting those higher level spell slots, which are always, at every stage of their career, a resource in short supply.