A versus match: Geralt of Rivia Vs Kain of Nosgoth

[The Succubus]

This was a question that popped into my head the other ay, having been enjoying Soul Reaver again on Steam and the Witcher 2.

However, the way I would like to approach this is to build a perfectly balanced fight between the two from the ground up. So rather than saying Gerlat will beat Kain or vice versa, what we will do is introduce abilities as the fight continues, increasing the power levels as the fight builds.

Round One: Swordsmanship

For the moment only, we are going to discount the magic properties of Kain's signature weapon, the Soul Reaver and look at it purely from technical abilities. Who is the stronger swordsman?

Round Two: Spell-like Abilities

In this round, both of our combatants are limited to magical forces only. So for Geralt, we have the use of Signs, suchas Aard, Quen, Igni, Yrden, Axii and Heliotrope. For Kain, these would be the spells that draw upon his mana pool from the original game. I am going to disallow the one hit kill of Spirit Wrack. Sorry.

Round Three: Trickster

This round covers the use of items. So we're looking at bombs, traps and potions from Geralt and items such as Flay, Implode, Pestilence, etc from Kain. Again, try to avoid the one hit kill stuff - we're trying to make this an interesting discussion. :smallsmile:

Round Four: Innate Natures

This "round" is a non combat round and looks at the various characteristics of each opponent. Would the fact Geralt's a mutant cause his blood to be poisonous to cain. Would the fact that Kain is a highly sentient creature conflict with the Witcher's Code?

Let's hear your thoughts!

[Yora]

In regard to swordmanship I would say they are both about equal. Very good swordsmen, but I don't think their skill at fencing is in any way superhuman.

No clue about Kains in-game abilities in Blood Omen.

But in the end, Geralt is hopelessly outmatched by Kain. The mutations allow Geralt to get the maximum power out of what a human body can bring to a fight. But Kain is far above humans and even other vampires. The only person who could beat him was the Sarafan Lord and that one was pumped up with magic way above what anyone else had.
I don't think it would even be a real fight, Kain would just squash Geralt within seconds.

[TheDarkDM]

While I realize the intent is to create an equitable challenge between the two, I don't think that's even possible. Consider the opening line of Soul Reaver - "Kain is deified." Anyone with a legitimate claim to being God Emperor of an entire planet is going to be out of Geralt's league.

[Tengu_temp]

Swordsmanship
Both of them are excellent swordsmen and extraordinarily fast, but Kain has a clear advantage here - he can pull off some really over the top stuff, especially in Defiance, while Geralt's most unbelievable ability is deflecting arrows with his sword. Also, Kain has superhuman strength, while Geralt doesn't.

Magic
Even when you use the Signs from the game, which have much more combat utility than in the books (only Aard is useful in a normal fight there), Kain still has the advantage. He's simply much more versatile, between all the sorcery he knows and the vampire powers. Geralt, on the other hand, is a swordsman first an foremost, and only dabbles in magic.

Items
Here, on the other hand, Geralt might have an advantage. His potions have a wide range of effects, including some anti-undead ones, and as long as he has time to prepare, he could use them to great effect. Most of Kain's usable items can one-shot mortals, but they fly slow enough that someone with Geralt's speed should be able to dodge or deflect them. Geralt's bombs and traps (which he didn't have in the books, but it's game Geralt we're talking about), on the other hand, have wide area effects, and many of them stun enemies and leave them vulnerable.

Innate Nature
Kain would be able to drink Geralt's blood, he can suck blood from some pretty deformed creatures throughout all the games and only corporeal undead are poisonous for him. And Geralt's mutant nature doesn't seem to stop vampires from his own world from trying to suck on him.
There is nothing in the witcher's code that prohibits you from killing sentient creatures - Geralt does so all the time, when they're a threat to humans. He'd probably consider it his duty to try to find a way to kill Kain eve if he wasn't paid, simply due to how dangerous and destructive he is.
Not to mention, the witcher's code is actually a lie. Geralt made it up in order to appear more professional, and to fool people into thinking he's doing various acts of goodness because the code requires him to, not because he's ultimately a chaotic good character trying hard to fool the world and himself into thinking he's lawful neutral.

Overall? The fight would be fun to see, but Kain is simply much more powerful. Unless Geralt comes up with a brilliant plan and brings some allies along, he'd probably lose.

And now I'm sad we'll never see the conclusion to the Legacy of Kain story.

[GolemsVoice]

If Geralt KNEW he would be fighting Kain, he maybe could brew up a potion that makes his blood poisonous to vampires. However, while Geralt is sure ressourceful, he never really experiments and brews new potions, just the ones he knows, and even these only in the games. In the books, he makes little to no use of potions.

Also, The Succubus, you forgot the Heliotrope sign that can protect Geralt from some magic.

[Yora]

Even if Geralt could make his blood poisenous to Kain, that would come into play only after he is dead.

[The Succubus]

While I realize the intent is to create an equitable challenge between the two, I don't think that's even possible. Consider the opening line of Soul Reaver - "Kain is deified." Anyone with a legitimate claim to being God Emperor of an entire planet is going to be out of Geralt's league.

Some good points raised so far and thanks for the catch on Heliotrope, GV - I knew there I'd missed one.

I'm glad you raised this point, Dark. Kain is powerful. Very much so but deified? Not be a long shot. Consider who's speaking when that quote is made, it's Raziel, who also shares some of Kain's..."divinity". His view point is heavily biased and despite having a portion of Kain's mojo, it doesn't stop him getting toasted when he's chucked into the Abyss a little while later. Across all the Legacy games, water has proven invariably fatal to Kain too.

The other thing to bear in mind is that when playing the Blood Omen games (inc Defiance) it's quite easy to die as Kain repeatedly (the Malik fight springs to mind -.-) and heck knows how many Hearts of Darkness I went through in the original.

I think what we need to do is compile a list of Kain's abilities from each game and analyse them. Then we might get the fair fight we're looking for.

Oh, and Geralt has offered more than his fair share of vampires too, don't forget. =)

[Gettles]

Some good points raised so far and thanks for the catch on Heliotrope, GV - I knew there I'd missed one.

I'm glad you raised this point, Dark. Kain is powerful. Very much so but deified? Not be a long shot. Consider who's speaking when that quote is made, it's Raziel, who also shares some of Kain's..."divinity". His view point is heavily biased and despite having a portion of Kain's mojo, it doesn't stop him getting toasted when he's chucked into the Abyss a little while later. Across all the Legacy games, water has proven invariably fatal to Kain too.

The other thing to bear in mind is that when playing the Blood Omen games (inc Defiance) it's quite easy to die as Kain repeatedly (the Malik fight springs to mind -.-) and heck knows how many Hearts of Darkness I went through in the original.

I think what we need to do is compile a list of Kain's abilities from each game and analyse them. Then we might get the fair fight we're looking for.

Oh, and Geralt has offered more than his fair share of vampires too, don't forget. =)

Off the top of my head, he had the ability to turn into mist, teleport, shoot lightning, slow down time, I think I remember telekinesis, drain blood from several feet away, and turning into a bunch of bats as well as super strength and just being hard to kill in general (i.e. having his heart ripped out of his chest did nothing to slow him down)

[Yora]

Geralt faught normal vampires. Not an ancient vampire demigod.

[Tiki Snakes]

I think that the point of the quote in question was that Kain had set himself up as a god, (and withour rival) rather than some claim of actual spiritual ascendancy.

That said, I still think he's very likely to walk it. Ironically, especially Blood Omen Kain, with his vast bag of tricks and deadly equipment even ignoring the one-hit kill spells and weapons. Kain of the post Silicon Knights era and games is a different kettle of fish, with increased strength, speed and general power but a vastly reduced bag of tricks to use. I'd almost say that the challenger has a better chance against most of the sequel's versions of Kain, except potentially in the swordfighting comparison as the insta-dodging of Defiance and similar action-game quirks tilt things a little.

[MLai]

If there's a story attached to this Versus, then Geralt will win. Because with prep time, you can argue Geralt is Batman. And Kain is an Ancient Vampiric Demigod, i.e. perfect main antagonist to base a movie around his eventual defeat by a lowly human badass hero.

[GolemsVoice]

Well, even with prep time, Geralt isn't that tough. In the end, he still has to slay the beast, and while he held his own against a Striga for quite some time, she nearly killed him in the end.

[Tiki Snakes]

If there's a story attached to this Versus, then Geralt will win. Because with prep time, you can argue Geralt is Batman. And Kain is an Ancient Vampiric Demigod, i.e. perfect main antagonist to base a movie around his eventual defeat by a lowly human badass hero.

A story doesn't mean you get prep time, and if prep time is included then my money is on the guy with near unlimited preparatory time travel (post Silicon Knights Kain).

[The Succubus]

I suspect that'd be something Kain and Geralt have in common - I can easily see Mobius getting on Geralt's nerves as well.

[Tengu_temp]

Well, even with prep time, Geralt isn't that tough. In the end, he still has to slay the beast, and while he held his own against a Striga for quite some time, she nearly killed him in the end.

He killed a Bruxa in one of the stories, though, which is a much more powerful vampire type. He wasn't alone, but still.

I wouldn't sell Geralt short. Look at the kind of monsters he beats in the second game - a gigantic tentacle monster and a freakin' gold dragon, which is a single most powerful creature in his world, maybe except some ridiculously powerful sorcerers. Oh wait, a ridiculously powerful sorcerer is the big bad of his stories, and he ultimately kills him too.

The fight between Geralt and Kain would be a long, tough, and pretty awesome one to see. It's just that in normal circumstances, Kain is pretty much guaranteed to win in the end. But it won't be an instant kill.

[Gettles]

He killed a Bruxa in one of the stories, though, which is a much more powerful vampire type. He wasn't alone, but still.

I wouldn't sell Geralt short. Look at the kind of monsters he beats in the second game - a gigantic tentacle monster and a freakin' gold dragon, which is a single most powerful creature in his world, maybe except some ridiculously powerful sorcerers. Oh wait, a ridiculously powerful sorcerer is the big bad of his stories, and he ultimately kills him too.

The fight between Geralt and Kain would be a long, tough, and pretty awesome one to see. It's just that in normal circumstances, Kain is pretty much guaranteed to win in the end. But it won't be an instant kill.

Does Geralt has any way to counter telekinesis? Because Kain is easily able to restrain, lift, and throw around men with no problem using it. I think I remember him moving large stone statues, but I'm not sure, but using it against men was a normal move.

[Tengu_temp]

The Heliotrope sign can counter magic. And even without it Kain's telekinesis seems to have its limits, or else he'd omgwtfbbqpwn all opponents with it, including Raziel.

[GolemsVoice]

Oh, I'm not short-selling Geralt, I have the highest respect for his fighting abilities. However, at least in the books, I just think Kain fights better (without knowing too much about Soul Reaper). Geralt wouldn't go down easily, in now way, of course. He's not known as the "Butcher of Blaviken" for his tasty steaks, after all. Still, Kain just seems to be tougher.

Videogame Geralt is a better fighter still than book Geralt, I'd say, so maybe videogame Geralt would have a better chance at winning.

EDIT: Does Kain have any mind-affecting magic? While Geralt is very strong-willed, and the Heliotrope sign helps (partially) against magic effects, Yennefer dominates him quite easily when they first meet.

[The Succubus]

Hmmm, Spirit Wrack displaces a creature's spirit and allows Kain to possess it but falls under "one-shots". He also has "Control Mind" in the original Blood Omen.

Thinking about it, I think a lot of the problems in balancing such a fight stem from Blood Omen. There's a lot of very powerful abilities in that game for Kain. From Soul Reaver onwards though, it'd be a more balanced fight.

[Fan]

If there's a story attached to this Versus, then Geralt will win. Because with prep time, you can argue Geralt is Batman. And Kain is an Ancient Vampiric Demigod, i.e. perfect main antagonist to base a movie around his eventual defeat by a lowly human badass hero.

Even Batman has physical limits, and in the few stories where he's "overcome" stronger, faster, and generally more physically able beings it's always been because he outlasted the "clock" on whatever mind control / transformation / magic that is making them attack him, and then being severely hospitalized. The Sacrifice comes to mind when Max Lord mind controls Superman into attacking Batman out of the blue, and Bruce is put into a full body cast even with all the resources of the Full Justice League dedicated to healing him.

That, and in a real versus match with no prep time, external help, or resources given to either party combined with a solid motive / blood lusted ends on each side the "Badass Normal" loses every time to even people with only moderate super human endowments.

Kain walks this, teleportation, ranged blood drain, discorporation into bats to avoid auto kills and a more obvious form of mobility that's still an ante up on Geralt, and he out does Geralt in speed, durability, and powerset given the full resources of his games. Telekinesis, Pyrokinesis, Super Speed, Super Jumping, higher durability, mind control, intangibility.

Even assuming potions are used, they require Geralt to tag a Super Fast Opponent who can teleport, and likely endure it (As Kain wasn't instantly killed by Glyph weaponry, which was designed to kill vampires, it can be gathered that he isn't going to go down in 1 hit, even from this.)

This is of course, giving Geralt prep time, and Kain prep time in turn, as to give it to one and not the other is tilting the match one way or another.

[Elderand]

Let's not forget that if we ignore gameplay where it happens for the sake of challenge. It's quite possible that Kain cannot die. Straight up impossible to kill.

The Hyden lord pumped with magic up the wazoo couldn't inflict a fatal wound. Having his heart straight up ripped from his chest by his fated archenemy/savior (it's complicated) couldn't do it.

As for preparation, Geralt doesn't win even with it, because Kain can use his ressource to peer into the timestream and his more than willing to induce possibly universe destroying paradoxes on the off chance things will turn better if he see himself lose.

[MLai]

You guys should be coming up with more ways on how Geralt can win. It's no fun listing off ways Kain can curbstomp a human. Ofc Kain can curbstomp a human, I don't need you to tell me that. By your metric, every single action hero in every single movie/book/game ever should have been one-shotted by the final boss, no exceptions.

[Fan]

You guys should be coming up with more ways on how Geralt can win. It's no fun listing off ways Kain can curbstomp a human. Ofc Kain can curbstomp a human, I don't need you to tell me that. By your metric, every single action hero in every single movie/book/game ever should have been one-shotted by the final boss, no exceptions.

Most of them should have, but most also possessed plot devices that allowed them to triumph over the greater odds, or special knowledge of the others weaknesses thanks to previous experience.

There are exceptions of course, but in a straight up fight? Yes, the hero loses to his final boss barring heroes with standard equipment that counters their final boss.