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View Full Version : Help with Guns, please?



johnnydeviant
2013-01-22, 11:20 AM
Hello Giant in the Playground forums! This is my first post after lurking the site for a while, so be gentle please?

So I am in the process of creating a custom setting for myself and friends, aka I have no interest in ever publishing it, and I have been stumped by a small issue; I want to have guns in my world and no gunpowder. I do not wish to have gunpowder simply due to the fact that I do not want my world to evolve into combat that uses only guns and cannons. I want to include guns because the setting is going to have a nior, mystery, technological revolution, and epic adventure feel to it. Tech is around the level of mid to late 1800's with some restriction on vehicles types and some other things. I would like to hear your opinions on how to do guns w/o gunpowder. Also this is a fluff/lore question so mechanics are not really what I am concerned with right now. Thanks ahead of time for any future input!

bobthe6th
2013-01-22, 11:25 AM
Make them refluffed cross bows?

For actual fluff explination, just make them magical? Or air powered? Or mini rail guns powered by tiny storm elementals?

chrisrawr
2013-01-22, 11:29 AM
Hm... Steam/Compression, Electric (Motor, Rail, and Coil) and Magic seem to be your best options.

Electric guns don't have much power, even now-adays, outside of motor guns. Motor guns use gears to basically either "baseball throw" or "hotweels launch" projectiles.

Steam.Compression you could use canisters for rifles, and large steam tanks for encampments.

Magic is magic. You ain't gotta explain poop.

1dominator
2013-01-22, 11:31 AM
Air guns are your friend there, they saw significant use in the era you refer to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gun
Or some sort of compressed crossbow that fires using a metal spring?

zzuxon
2013-01-22, 11:51 AM
I use powdered Phlegostin for my guns in my setting.
Phlegostin is a magically enhanced combustible material made my mixing several natural substances.

johnnydeviant
2013-01-22, 01:27 PM
All very good suggestions. Air guns, while feasible, is too close to steam punk for my comfort, and while I enjoy steam punk this setting is not of that genre. I like the idea of a rail gun. The thing that I have to worry about is that I do not want guns to overtake the place of bows. Mechanically this is easy to fix. I suppose I could just make the guns very expensive, or knowledge of how to make them very rare. Something magic based is not a bad idea. Perhaps something similar to a rail gun that shoots concentrated shots of energy instead of bullets though why would this not be a touch AC weapon? I think the idea of something that functions similar to a rail gun is a good starting point. Make it magical somehow.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2013-01-22, 02:16 PM
The easiest way to make guns not overtake bows is require a reload action. In 3.5 edition, heavy crossbows require a full-round action to reload (or a move action with the Rapid Reload feat), making them normally unable to take advantage of feats like Rapid Shot. This can actually make guns underpowered, even if they do decent damage, because of the slow rate of fire. Various rule workarounds have been suggested (like in Pathfinder, where guns within the first range increment resolve as touch attacks).

I would favor "alchemical cartridges", tiny glass bottles of liquid (and a large bubble of pure oxygen) with a lead lump (the bullet) capping one end. When primed by a rune molded into the hammer of the pistol, the cartridge's contents violently convert to elemental fire, driving the lead bullet at subsonic velocity (but fast enough and large enough to leave a nice-sized hole in someone). The cartridge must be ejected manually as a red-hot shell of glass, and cheaper models have a tendency to make cartridges melt to the inside of the chamber (exotic weapon, does as much damage and crits as a greatsword, piercing and bludgeoning damage, half range increment of a light crossbow, reloading is a full-round action, jams on a natural 1, guns are cheaper than crossbows but bullets are expensive). If you've played Dishonored, the whale-oil pistols are what I'm thinking about.

Shpadoinkle
2013-01-22, 02:26 PM
The thing that I have to worry about is that I do not want guns to overtake the place of bows.

In the real world guns replacing bows and crossbows as the go-to ranged weapon took a much longer time than many people realize- they existed on the battlefield together for several hundred years. Guns were, expensive, difficult, and slow to produce, and if one broke you pretty much had to take it back to the guy who made it to get it repaired, or else it would take twice as long since there were no standardized machine tools and every part of the crafting process was done by hand. This isn't even getting into the battlefield issues- guns were inaccurate, didn't always fire (the powder getting wet and made useless was far from unusual or uncommon,) reloaded slowly, and in a worst case scenario might blow up in your hands. Really, they were kind of more trouble than they were worth, and it took a lot of work over a long time to get them to be anywhere near as reliable as they are today.

In game terms, simply making them take a full-round action to reload would probably discourage all but the most stubborn of players from using them, unless the damage they do is so high that it's worth losing every other turn.

bobthe6th
2013-01-22, 02:28 PM
All very good suggestions. Air guns, while feasible, is too close to steam punk for my comfort, and while I enjoy steam punk this setting is not of that genre. I like the idea of a rail gun. The thing that I have to worry about is that I do not want guns to overtake the place of bows. Mechanically this is easy to fix. I suppose I could just make the guns very expensive, or knowledge of how to make them very rare. Something magic based is not a bad idea. Perhaps something similar to a rail gun that shoots concentrated shots of energy instead of bullets though why would this not be a touch AC weapon? I think the idea of something that functions similar to a rail gun is a good starting point. Make it magical somehow.

You know guns didn't start that crazy powerful. You know that early guns tottaly could get stoped by armor. You can litterly use reflufed crossbows using the explination of "rail gun."

Add feats to make it better, like a psionic shot line for the magic rail gun.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2013-01-22, 02:29 PM
You know guns didn't start that crazy powerful. You know that early guns tottaly could get stoped by armor. You can litterly use reflufed crossbows using the explination of "rail gun."

And don't forget rifling, which didn't become widely used until the 19th century. Early guns were less accurate than crossbows and longbows, and could only be used at close range. Their benefit was that they could pierce armor.

Spiryt
2013-01-22, 02:34 PM
In the real world guns replacing bows and crossbows as the go-to ranged weapon took a much longer time than many people realize- they existed on the battlefield together for several hundred years. Guns were, expensive, difficult, and slow to produce, and if one broke you pretty much had to take it back to the guy who made it to get it repaired, or else it would take twice as long since there were no standardized machine tools and every part of the crafting process was done by hand.

Crossbows were generally more expensive, pretty slow to produce as well, definitely more complicated ( metal pipe on a stick vs few small mechanisms in crossbows), and were obviously crafted by hand, with no standardized tools, as well. As almost anything else, for that matter.

There was also almost nothing to really break in 15th century firearms, as opposed to crossbow...


you pretty much had to take it back to the guy who made it to get it repaired, or else it would take twice as long since there were no standardized machine

?

Any gunsmith rather, or maybe just someone experienced. With early handguns, repairs would be rather easy, or not possible at all, ie if it actually blew up. So I don't get it really.



And don't forget rifling. Early guns were less accurate than crossbows and longbows, and could only be used at close range. Their benefit was that they could pierce armor.

Rifling was present since at least 15th century, main problem, save cost and effort, was that it made reload much slower.

Guns that weren't rifled could be pretty accurate to completely errant, depending on a skill of shooter and his choice of bullets and powder, for example.

eftexar
2013-01-22, 04:14 PM
Alright I took some ideas from around the thread and combined them (see Spoiler for details).

ALCHEMIST'S BOW
200gp (2 lbs), Exotic Ranged (One-Handed)
Damage: 2d8 piercing and bludgeoning, 19-20 / x2 Crit
Range Increment: 30ft, maximum 5 range increments
Ammunition: Alchemical Cartridge: 1/2 lbs, 5gp per cartridge
This weapon would probably be referred to as a gun in modern times, but being based loosely on the mechanism's of crossbows is referred to as a bow instead. The invention of gunpowder guns is still years away.
The Alchemist's Bow shoots projectiles in the form of blast caps shot with the combustion of Alchemical Cartridge's, triggered when the hammer of the bow ignites it. The expended cartridge is automatically ejected after being shot, but a new cartridge must be reloaded before the weapon can be shot again.
Reloading is a move action, though, without the Quick Draw feat, drawing ammo and reloading combined instead take a full round action.
The weapon jams on an attack roll of a natural 1, requiring a full round action to remove the cartridge. The cartridge is wasted and the weapon must be reloaded in order to be shot again.
Attacks made against opponents within it's first range increment are made as touch attacks. The velocity of the blast cap is simply too much for armor, even magical armor, to overcome.
Unlike normal ranged weapons it's ammunition can't be enchanted. Instead, the Alchemist's Bow is enchanted with any such enchantments, imparting them upon their ammunition whenever fired.

The ability to enchant the gun instead of ammunition makes it viable with it's inability to make full attacks at higher levels, while touch attack at close range and higher damage makes up for the reload and failure chance.

edit/ Even as is, the weapon is still somewhat subpar to other ranged weapons when you think about the ranged attack feats and it's drawbacks. Coupled with the higher cost, it is enough to make the weapon less prevalently used, but not so far it makes the weapon useless.

bobthe6th
2013-01-22, 05:45 PM
Untill a psi war uses a deep crystal version. Start stacking psionic shot on some weapon buffs... that could deal some crazy damage.

I would remove the armor piercing. or at best let it pierce nonmagical armor/armor below +8 AC bonus (so +4 chain shirt stops it, as does a +3 breastplate, and a non magical set of full plate).

I think that it should act like a bastard sword. ie. It can be used as a martial weapon that deals 2d8 damage, needs two hands, and reloads as a full round action. The offer a feat to make it a move action to reload, or a free action with rapid reload, and a feat to use it one handed.

Or something like that...

Thomar_of_Uointer
2013-01-22, 08:25 PM
Alright I took some ideas from around the thread and combined them (see Spoiler for details).

ALCHEMIST'S BOW
200gp (2 lbs), Exotic Ranged (One-Handed)
Damage: 2d8 piercing and bludgeoning, 19-20 / x2 Crit
Range Increment: 30ft, maximum 5 range increments
Ammunition: Alchemical Cartridge: 1/2 lbs, 5gp per cartridge
This weapon would probably be referred to as a gun in modern times, but being based loosely on the mechanism's of crossbows is referred to as a bow instead. The invention of gunpowder guns is still years away.
The Alchemist's Bow shoots projectiles in the form of blast caps shot with the combustion of Alchemical Cartridge's, triggered when the hammer of the bow ignites it. The expended cartridge is automatically ejected after being shot, but a new cartridge must be reloaded before the weapon can be shot again.
Reloading is a move action, though, without the Quick Draw feat, drawing ammo and reloading combined instead take a full round action.
The weapon jams on an attack roll of a natural 1, requiring a full round action to remove the cartridge. The cartridge is wasted and the weapon must be reloaded in order to be shot again.
Attacks made against opponents within it's first range increment are made as touch attacks. The velocity of the blast cap is simply too much for armor, even magical armor, to overcome.
Unlike normal ranged weapons it's ammunition can't be enchanted. Instead, the Alchemist's Bow is enchanted with any such enchantments, imparting them upon their ammunition whenever fired.

The ability to enchant the gun instead of ammunition makes it viable with it's inability to make full attacks at higher levels, while touch attack at close range and higher damage makes up for the reload and failure chance.

edit/ Even as is, the weapon is still somewhat subpar to other ranged weapons when you think about the ranged attack feats and it's drawbacks. Coupled with the higher cost, it is enough to make the weapon less prevalently used, but not so far it makes the weapon useless.

Looks neat. I believe that drawing an arrow/bolt is a free action, so drawing a cartridge from a bandolier would be a free action. Making reloading it simply a full-round action would be fine (the full-round action to reload includes clearing the previously spent cartridge).

The single most powerful ability about this kind of weapon is that it lets you resolve attacks as touch attacks. That's a pretty big deal, it lets you ignore natural armor and worn armor (the two most common sources of AC). Requiring a full-round action to reload is a fine drawback.

One more thing. It wouldn't be a bad idea to include a feat like this, which is inspired by Pathfinder:

Grit (Combat)
Prerequisites: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearm)
Benefit: You have a number of grit points equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). At the start of each day your grit points are raised to their maximum. You may regain a used grit point whenever you score a critical hit with a firearm, and whenever you reduce a creature's hit point total to 0 or lower during combat. You may spend a grit point to perform any of the following:

Reduce the reloading of a firearm from a full-round action to a move action (or, if you have the Rapid Reload feat, from a move action to a swift action).
Clear a jammed firearm as a free action.
Make a touch attack with a firearm against an opponent outside of its first range increment.


EDIT: I think 5 gp per bullet is too much. 1 gp per bullet would be the upper end, in my opinion. I would also specify that bullets come in packs of 6, for enchantment purposes. Yeah, it's small, but you're resolving special weapon properties like spell storing and wounding as touch attacks.

rorikdude12
2013-01-22, 09:47 PM
Pistol-grip wondrous item that casts magic missile? Maybe a revolver-type chassis that has to be loaded with really tiny scrolls of magic missile. Just a thought.

eftexar
2013-01-23, 03:30 PM
I don't know whether limiting how much armor it overcomes would be a good idea or not. I really dislike those type of caps, because it's sort of like saying "here's a feature that only has an effect when it doesn't matter." Ie, opponents with less armor have a lower AC, making the touch attack less relevant.

I think the thing I threw together, with Thomar's changes, would work better than a "magic" gun. You can build entire archetypes around the use of guns and I think making it magical would be a bad idea.
That would make it dis-enchantable and subject to antimagic effects. I grow leery when making a character who's schtick isn't magic is dependent on magic (the fact that D&D assumes magic items has always irritated me, but that's just my opinion).

bobthe6th
2013-01-23, 04:50 PM
I don't know whether limiting how much armor it overcomes would be a good idea or not. I really dislike those type of caps, because it's sort of like saying "here's a feature that only has an effect when it doesn't matter." Ie, opponents with less armor have a lower AC, making the touch attack less relevant.

The idea is reducing the insane advantage of free touch attacks.

Kane0
2013-01-23, 05:48 PM
Hmm, maybe the guns you are looking for are actually modified crossbows?

They would use small packets of alchemist fire or some other alchemical substance to propel a sling bullet down a barrel as opposed to a string from a bow providing acceleration. The trigger would make the hammer hit the alchemical accelerant instead of release the bowstring.

Damage, range and/or crits are a little better than their comparative crossbows (hand, light and heavy), but you need to reload both the accelerant and the bullet, meaning where a crossbow would need a swift or move action to reload, you need a move or standard action respectively to reload these guns.

If you need fluff, maybe they were originally made by gnomes that ran out of materials for regular crossbows, and needed a way to launch alchemical flasks and sling bullets.

sengmeng
2013-01-24, 01:34 PM
What's the difference between a grenade launcher and a wand of fireballs? How about in your setting, everyone carries wands with pistol grips under their coats, loaded with ray type spells if you want marksmanship to still be a factor? Or, a dart gun that operates like a heavy-duty version of the kid's toy, with springs. Functionally the same as a crossbow, but fits under your coat. Or they are experimental and they work exactly the same as our guns but the fire/explosion is magically created.

bobthe6th
2013-01-24, 04:29 PM
What's the difference between a grenade launcher and a wand of fireballs? How about in your setting, everyone carries wands with pistol grips under their coats, loaded with ray type spells if you want marksmanship to still be a factor?

Well the problem is wands cost a lot... 15gp x spell level x caster level a shot.

somthing I forgot about, ray weapons (http://www.giantitp.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5867363#post5867363). All of them are in the 10000+ range, but they are viable guns.

Prime32
2013-01-24, 07:40 PM
And don't forget rifling, which didn't become widely used until the 19th century. Early guns were less accurate than crossbows and longbows, and could only be used at close range. Their benefit was that they could pierce armor.Early guns could not pierce armor. In fact, armor sellers would prove their merchandise by shooting it at point blank range - it's where the term "bullet proof" comes from. Even if they could pierce armor, most of the army couldn't afford to wear any. The armor-piercing weapons on the battlefield were warhammers (which D&D calls picks) and crossbows.

Their real benefit was that they could be used without training, allowing entire ranged armies rather than small units of elite archers. Inaccuracy doesn't matter when you're firing hundreds of shots into a dense formation of enemies.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2013-01-24, 07:40 PM
Well the problem is wands cost a lot... 15gp x spell level x caster level a shot.

somthing I forgot about, ray weapons (http://www.giantitp.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5867363#post5867363). All of them are in the 10000+ range, but they are viable guns.

A simple 1d6 damage ray weapon (activated at will as a standard action) would only cost 2,000 gp.

Dragonxan
2013-01-30, 05:11 PM
I go with either air guns or look at some of the old
"Legend and Lairs - Sorcery and Steam" books or other steampunk campaign materials, alot of them have ideas about guns powered by mini high compression steam engines or use clockwork and gears and springs.