In what ways can a low Charisma affect your character?

[bendking]

Almost done making my character, and so, when I told my friends he has 8 Charisma they immidiately said I have to be introverted, shy and not very talkative.
Is this a good way to go about having 8 Charisma, and is it right? And what other ways can this affect my character while not making me un-talkative (because I am really talkative), or shy.
Thanks ahead, Ben.

[Gazzien]

I'm sure you don't have to be introverted and shy; you could also miss social cues, be lecherous, or something like that. Personally (as a DM), I wouldn't force you to be shy because of a low charisma; there are many ways to deal with that - at least in my opinion.

Away from books, though, so not sure if that has precedent.

[Doxkid]

A few possibilities for a low Cha character:

* They are ugly enough to garner negative attention
*They are shy
*Others find them annoying
*Most of the time they won't be noticed in social settings
*No one listens to them
*Their lies are more obvious and their honestly doubted more often
*Others find them easily forgotten
*Magic doesnt want to work for them, but will if it absolutely must

*Everything they say is worded poorly. Example: "Wow. You're really fat for a dragon, arent you? Our team should take advantage of you." instead of. "Greetings mighty dragon! I see you are quite powerful; it would be a honor to serve if you would take us as your wards, though we are unworthy of such a boon..."

Keep in mind that 8 isn't actually a "low" score. It's pretty much average, so these effects on charisma would be minor.

[Starbuck_II]

Almost done making my character, and so, when I told my friends he has 8 Charisma they immidiately said I have to be introversion, shy and not very talkative.
Is this a good way to go about having 8 Charisma, and is it right? And what other ways can this affect my character while not making me un-talkative (because I am), or shy.
Thanks ahead, Ben.

All Dwarf have 8 Cha normally (remember average Dwarf has Cha 8 since average is 10 and they have -2).

Examples: Have food stuck in your beard, talk but don't listen, etc.
Be Gruff not friendly in your speakings

[Rogue Shadows]

Remember that being ugly or abrasive does not itself, however, suggest a low Charisma. Eric Cartman, from South Park, is fat, ugly, racist, sexist, a homophobe, a sociopath, a psychopath, openly insulting to everyone around him, and in all ways an unpleasant person.

Yet he has negotiated huge deals between himself and major corporations, manipulated entire countries into going to war or passing legislation, regularly manipulates friends and family and freakin' Cthulhu into doing what he wants, all with words, bluffs, diplomacy, and playing it smart. He has a very high Charisma.

Basically, Charisma is a measure of your ability to project yourself onto others, make others do what you want and make others want to do whatever it is that you're doing. So a low Charisma means you're not good at that: you're bad at negotiating, bad at imposing your will. You might not have much of a will to impose, or you might just suck at getting people to listen to you. Above all else, you're probably forgettable by standard words and deeds.

[ArcturusV]

I view charisma as a "Force of personality" rather than a physical asset. It is a "mental stat" after all. So I don't force people who have low charisma to say they fell out the Ugly Tree and hit every branch on the way down. Or that people with High Charisma are some centerfold supermodel ilk. At 8 it isn't a huge deal. Think about say, 8 strength. A guy with 8 strength could get along in life easily enough. He might not be able to lift two bales of hay over his head at any one time but he could chuck around one at a time. Might get teased a little because he isn't AS tough at everyone but it's not like he's got some atrophied limb and is actually handicapped.

Similarly someone with an 8 Charisma should just boe someone that doesn't "Click" with people as easily. They might be kinda bland and blend into the background, doesn't really "Wow" anyone. They might have trouble speaking clearly or handling large crowds. But it's not a huge crippling flaw. It could even be as minor as "I was raised in the sticks and lack proper manners, so I come off as slightly crude to civilized folk".

[shadow_archmagi]

Yeah, I'd say not to worry about 8 CHA. A -1 is totally insignificant. Just roleplay the character you want to roleplay, as long as you're not wowing crowds with your oratory skills (Or, hell, go ahead and wow crowds with your skills. Remember that 5 ranks in Perform is as good as a 20 in Cha, which means any level 2 character that works hard can be as good as the most talented human ever who didn't practice.)

[only1doug]

As others have said, an 8 isn't going to cripple you,just make you slightly less influential. I once had a character with 3 cha (4d6b3 rolled, 1,1,1,2) So I played him as mono focused on his interest (he was a fire focused wizard, turned elemental savant), fire was his answer to every problem...

You can choose to portray your characters slight lack of charisma as being too talkative and not stopping to let others talk, if that's how you want to play it.

[Vaz]

1 charisma is utterly unaware of themselves. An object, or someone in a coma. 10 charisma is standard for a standdard human, not explicitly ugly or good looking, just your average joe running a 9-5 ratrace, with 2.4 kids and a wife, an mpv with a roof rack and a 2up 2down.

I didn't understand why you get additional charisma for being older outside of balance.

An 8 charisma character is one who tends to just get his comments taken the wrong way every so often, he rarely gets preferential treatment over everyone else. A 12 charisma character might get a free drink at the bar, or quicker service. That is changeable though, a vapid bimbo might get quick service, but then quickly bore the barman (frequently happen to me, chat a girl up, all she wants to talk about is herself), while an ugly but frequent tipper ups charosma.

[ArcturusV]

Charisma growth as you age makes sense if taken as a "Force of Personality" aspect rather than a "How Pretty you Are" aspect.

Old people have experience dealing with people, often in societies are given a role of deferential treatment and respect. There is an awe that comes from knowing someone has seen and done things that you haven't that hits on an instinctual level which makes you naturally take a follower/junior relationship to them. Which explains the Charisma bonus.

[Answerer]

1 charisma is utterly unaware of themselves. An object, or someone in a coma.
An object is Cha –, not Cha 1. A person in a coma is Unconscious, i.e. Cha 0, again not Cha 1.

Cha 1 is more like a skeleton or zombie (things that actually have Cha 1): only dimly aware of its own existence.

[ArcturusV]

Not that I ever personally agreed with that. I mean Intimidate is Charisma Based. An undead skeleton is somehow not intimidating at all since it has a huge penalty due to low Charisma?

[Rogue Shadows]

Not that I ever personally agreed with that. I mean Intimidate is Charisma Based. An undead skeleton is somehow not intimidating at all since it has a huge penalty due to low Charisma?

Intimidate stems from specifically trying to frighten something. A skeleton never tries to frighten anything. So, no, within the context of how the skill works, a skeleton is not intimidating.

Having said that, it's a pretty common house rule to make Intimidate capable of using CHA or STR.

[PersonMan]

Not that I ever personally agreed with that. I mean Intimidate is Charisma Based. An undead skeleton is somehow not intimidating at all since it has a huge penalty due to low Charisma?

Intimidate =/= How Scary You Are, it's "How Well Can You Use Your Scariness?"

Dragons and a few other things are just so damn scary that they don't need to work for it, everything else will have trouble manipulating people with enough conviction (read: the PCs and other important people) through sheer intimidation. Making someone so afraid of you they can't swing their sword as well, or making someone entirely give up hope and surrender, is not something anyone can do.

Skeletons can be scary, but they won't make an experienced warrior shake so much he can't bash them with a mace, or similar, out of the box.

EDIT: It's a pretty relative thing, though. IMO, Str-based Intimidate brings the mental image of posing in front of someone, flexing your muscles, and making them scream in terror then run away. Not really what I think Intimidate is like.

[Edenbeast]

Not that I ever personally agreed with that. I mean Intimidate is Charisma Based. An undead skeleton is somehow not intimidating at all since it has a huge penalty due to low Charisma?

There's a difference between scary and intimidating. A moving skeleton is scary. A necromancer who threatens to raise an entire skeleton army to send it after you, is intimidating.

[Telonius]

I generally see charisma (like some of the other posters here) as force of personality; ability to impose your will on others. I'd suggest there are a lot of dimensions of that, just like there are many facets of each ability score. But IMO are two big ones: internal confidence, and external expression. You need both to be charismatic.

If you have a slightly lower charisma, you might not know what you want, or be that steadfast in your opinions. You might lack just a bit of self-confidence, or not want to rock the boat too much socially. Or you might have all the self-confidence in the world, but not be able to gauge how you're coming across to your audience. You might be annoying, or abrasive, or just not a good salesman.

8 CHA is a bit less charismatic than the average. Noticeable, but by no means crippling socially. A bit of work put into improving your delivery (one rank in perform: oratory, or diplomacy, or intimidate, or bluff) will make you the equal of an average person. That's more on the level of "personality trait" than "definition of character."

[Answerer]

It really just sounds like a group's houserule/unspoken agreement as a way to make Cha-dumping actually negative for characters (when it usually is not). Unfortunately, D&D 3.5 basically requires dumping of several stats, so I don't personally feel that their goal here is a good one.

[Edenbeast]

It really just sounds like a group's houserule/unspoken agreement as a way to make Cha-dumping actually negative for characters (when it usually is not). Unfortunately, D&D 3.5 basically requires dumping of several stats, so I don't personally feel that their goal here is a good one.

I don't like the general idea of stat "dumping" It's not required. Only thinking in terms of optimization makes it required. If you wish to optimize, sure, but roleplay accordingly. Every low stat is negative for a character, as much as a high stat is positive.. A wizard with a strength of 6? Keep track of how much you're carrying. A fighter with an intelligence of 6, don't play mr. smartypants. A charisma of 6, then you better be annoying, introverted or low on self-esteem. I think it's a good thing to make sure players actually roleplay instead of just rollplay.

[Answerer]

I don't like the general idea of stat "dumping" It's not required. Only thinking in terms of optimization makes it required. If you wish to optimize, sure, but roleplay accordingly. Every low stat is negative for a character, as much as a high stat is positive.. A wizard with a strength of 6? Keep track of how much you're carrying. A fighter with an intelligence of 6, don't play mr. smartypants. A charisma of 6, then you better be annoying, introverted or low on self-esteem. I think it's a good thing to make sure players actually roleplay instead of just rollplay.
No, you're wrong. Sorry. The game's numbers and mathematics are only tenuously balanced to begin with, and attempting to maintain multiple abilities beyond what your class requires is a quick way to make it impossible to compete with many CR-appropriate challenges. Further, I'll thank you not to insult myself and many other posters with derogatory terms aimed at specific play preferences.

[Edenbeast]

No, you're wrong. Sorry. The game's numbers and mathematics are only tenuously balanced to begin with, and attempting to maintain multiple abilities beyond what your class requires is a quick way to make it impossible to compete with many CR-appropriate challenges. Further, I'll thank you not to insult myself and many other posters with derogatory terms aimed at specific play preferences.

That's the optimizers point of view. We both speak for ourselves. Mine was how I experience and play the game, and thus I don't like the idea of minmaxing. You won't change that opinion, but I respect yours. I'm not wrong, sorry.
For you it may seem impossible without optimizing. I never optimize, yet never failed to play a great character. It depends on the group as well I admit. I have yet to play with a real optimizer. But somehow I'm happy I haven't so far.

[Vaz]

If you don' t bother to enhance a stat, it is dumping. If you roll randomly and making a frontline grey elf fighter, by all means "roleplay" along with con 6, strength and dex 8 fighter with 10 int and 18 charisma and wisdom. I do hope you have fun with it until you have to roll a new one because it took a greataxe to the face.

Dropping one stat is actually inherent to the game, you only have 5 level up ability adjustments. So, while i do respect the difference between your fun and "our" fun, you ARE wrong.

[ArcturusV]

I only think "Dumping" only really crosses the line into weirdly unacceptable when you are talking about Point Buy Min-Maxing, and you end up with that 4 Charisma so you can have 16-18 in everything else.

Then again I don't like point buy. I don't like Min-Maxing. I feel it creates insanely lopsided characters that don't have a lot of depth myself. It's my personal preference though and I realize most people don't hold to it. Then again it's why I don't play certain systems.

[Edenbeast]

If you don' t bother to enhance a stat, it is dumping. If you roll randomly and making a frontline grey elf fighter, by all means "roleplay" along with con 6, strength and dex 8 fighter with 10 int and 18 charisma and wisdom. I do hope you have fun with it until you have to roll a new one because it took a greataxe to the face.

Dropping one stat is actually inherent to the game, you only have 5 level up ability adjustments. So, while i do respect the difference between your fun and "our" fun, you ARE wrong.

I actually played a character like that, where I rolled the stats but allocated them in the same order as I rolled them. He survived, and not because the game was easy, but because it forced me to play smart, and he was actually smart with a high intelligence. So it all worked out well. I admit I may have misinterpreted dumping for minmaxing. I'm sorry. And yes, I'm wrong in the world of optimizers, just like a vegetarian would be wrong in a steakhouse.

[Answerer]

I actually played a character like that, where I rolled the stats but allocated them in the same order as I rolled them. He survived, and not because the game was easy, but because it forced me to play smart, and he was actually smart with a high intelligence. So it all worked out well. I admit I may have misinterpreted dumping for minmaxing. I'm sorry. And yes, I'm wrong in the world of optimizers, just like a vegetarian would be wrong in a steakhouse.
It is literally impossible to survive intelligently-played enemies anywhere near your CR unless they were hand-picked to be easy with those kinds of stats. So yes, it was either because the game was easy or the DM fiated things for you to do. The Fighter is incapable of using those stats in any meaningful way.

Moreover, it is, at least most of the time, pretty poor roleplaying. "Hmm, I am frail and can't put any force behind even the most well-executed swing. The Knight Academy really isn't working for me; with my will and force of personality, I bet I could really do something with a little help from the Mage University." Even if you made the choice to ignore your own talents and tried to force yourself into something you were not any good at, why on earth would a group of adventurers want you in their group?

The simple fact is, groups of D&D characters are professional warriors. They regularly put their life in considerable danger. It makes no sense for them to take any kind of extra risk, like carrying a useless comrade into the dungeon or taking along their knitting.

[Edenbeast]

It is literally impossible to survive intelligently-played enemies anywhere near your CR unless they were hand-picked to be easy with those kinds of stats. So yes, it was either because the game was easy or the DM fiated things for you to do. The Fighter is incapable of using those stats in any meaningful way.

Could be, however we had to run for our lives several times, so I don't think the DM was making it easy for us. His strenght wasn't as bad as in the example and his constitution was 12. So not too bad either. A finesse based figher is quite capable, and some INT based combat feats can be fun too.


Moreover, it is, at least most of the time, pretty poor roleplaying. "Hmm, I am frail and can't put any force behind even the most well-executed swing. The Knight Academy really isn't working for me; with my will and force of personality, I bet I could really do something with a little help from the Mage University." Even if you made the choice to ignore your own talents and tried to force yourself into something you were not any good at, why on earth would a group of adventurers want you in their group?

Poor roleplaying? I think we both use a different definition for roleplaying then. He was the son of a poor farmer out to revenge the death of his father. He had the brains for the academy, but not the money. And there was no knight academy, just some old veteran who taught him some fighting/survival skills. I think it's one of the better character concepts I ever played with :) Not at all optimal, but fun to play.


The simple fact is, groups of D&D characters are professional warriors. They regularly put their life in considerable danger. It makes no sense for them to take any kind of extra risk, like carrying a useless comrade into the dungeon or taking along their knitting.

PCs aren't necessarily "professional warriors". In fact ask around if anyone ever made a character with "professional warrior" in mind.. You can hire them as henchmen though :P

[Answerer]

Could be, however we had to run for our lives several times, so I don't think the DM was making it easy for us. His strenght wasn't as bad as in the example and his constitution was 12. So not too bad either. A finesse based figher is quite capable, and some INT based combat feats can be fun too.
"Quite capable" is an overstatement, but more importantly the original suggestion was quite a lot worse than that. Regardless, that is still an exceptionally weak character that was either carried by his party or faced vastly weaker enemies than I would expect in a game. He would not have survived at my table.


Poor roleplaying? I think we both use a different definition for roleplaying then. He was the son of a poor farmer out to revenge the death of his father. He had the brains for the academy, but not the money. And there was no knight academy, just some old veteran who taught him some fighting/survival skills. I think it's one of the better character concepts I ever played with :) Not at all optimal, but fun to play.

PCs aren't necessarily "professional warriors". In fact ask around if anyone ever made a character with "professional warrior" in mind.. You can hire them as henchmen though :P
Reluctant heroes are the exception, not the rule. PCs are supposed to be exceptional, but an entire group of reluctant heroes is exceedingly unlikely. Perhaps not as likely, however, as a professional and serious group accepting one in their band.

Regardless, I did not use absolutes for exactly that reason; the reluctant hero is a common trope. Dungeons & Dragons is just a system where even reluctant heroes are expected to perform extreme displays of combat prowess, and your character could not have contributed meaningfully to a very large array of potential CR-appropriate encounters. And I'm not talking about abusing a handful of poorly-CRed monsters; I'm talking about very basic stuff. At 7th level, could he have done anything at all if a spellcaster centered solid fog on him?

[StreamOfTheSky]

I actually enjoy a low charisma character for the roleplaying. It lets me play the character as mean and nasty and insulting, so that everyone hates him or her. And that's just entertaining. All those high charisma people being diplomatic and measured in what they say, courteous in how they act. Screw that! I'ma got 5 charisma, I'll say whatever comes to mind, no filter between brain and mouth! :smallbiggrin:

One of my last characters was sort of like Dr. House, I guess. In that, he non-stop launched "funny" (to him, at least, sometimes to others) jokes and critiques of the other PCs. And they can deal with it, cause he's the one with the heal spells keeping them alive! Really, if half your job consisted of patching up other people because they were stupid and reckless and got hurt, you'd be bitter, too!

[Felandria]

Intimidate =/= How Scary You Are, it's "How Well Can You Use Your Scariness?"

Dragons and a few other things are just so damn scary that they don't need to work for it, everything else will have trouble manipulating people with enough conviction (read: the PCs and other important people) through sheer intimidation. Making someone so afraid of you they can't swing their sword as well, or making someone entirely give up hope and surrender, is not something anyone can do.

Skeletons can be scary, but they won't make an experienced warrior shake so much he can't bash them with a mace, or similar, out of the box.

EDIT: It's a pretty relative thing, though. IMO, Str-based Intimidate brings the mental image of posing in front of someone, flexing your muscles, and making them scream in terror then run away. Not really what I think Intimidate is like.

My character, even before being a giant or a vampire, had a 20 charisma and a +13 to Intimidate, personally, since I rarely use Intimidate in combat, decided to look at it a different way.

My character was, again,before recent changes, a 6'4" half elf redhead, see avatar, so for her I see Intimidate as more like her walking up a man, looking them dead in the eye and giving a flirty smile.

If someone looking like her walks up to a guy and does that, he turns into a stammering, sweaty, blithering idiot because the hot girl is talking to him.

And if the target isn't interested in her like that, well, she's still pretty big...

[Sith_Happens]

My character, even before being a giant or a vampire, had a 20 charisma and a +13 to Intimidate, personally, since I rarely use Intimidate in combat, decided to look at it a different way.

My character was, again,before recent changes, a 6'4" half elf redhead, see avatar, so for her I see Intimidate as more like her walking up a man, looking them dead in the eye and giving a flirty smile.

If someone looking like her walks up to a guy and does that, he turns into a stammering, sweaty, blithering idiot because the hot girl is talking to him.

And if the target isn't interested in her like that, well, she's still pretty big...

Wow, that's great.:smallbiggrin:

On the topic of the OP, an 8 is pretty much at the low end of "average" range. So if you have 8 Charisma, assuming you don't put points into social skills to compensate, then it probably just means you're a bit socially awkward (but not too much so).

[Felandria]

Wow, that's great.:smallbiggrin:

On the topic of the OP, an 8 is pretty much at the low end of "average" range. So if you have 8 Charisma, assuming you don't put points into social skills to compensate, then it probably just means you're a bit socially awkward (but not too much so).

Not sure if sarcastic.:smallconfused:

The point I was trying to make is, how Charisma plays is largely dependent on the character.

If you have high Charisma, you could simply make them very attractive, you could make then eloquent and verbose, you could make them loud and forceful.

With low charisma, they could be ugly, meek, shy, surly, smug, arrogant.

And race is a factor as well, a half Orc with high Charisma won't necessarily be as handsome as a human or elf, but he could be successfully passing as human.

An elf with high Charisma could be unusually gregarious and friendly.

Really, the limits are practically nonexistent.

[Sith_Happens]

Not sure if sarcastic.:smallconfused:

Not sarcastic at all. Using Intimidate as "pretty girls are scary" is pure genius.

[Felandria]

Not sarcastic at all. Using Intimidate as "pretty girls are scary" is pure genius.

Thanks.

The height is a factor as well, at six four, she's usually taller than the other person, so a hot girl looming over you would be pretty damn intimidating.

And as for females, well, she's bigger than almost ALL females so that works too.

Of course now that she's giant sized, she gets a bonus to Intimidate, bumping it up to +17

Because imagine how intimidating it would be for a gorgeous, almost thirteen foot tall woman to walk up and smile at a man.

And God help them now that she's a vampire with a 24 Charisma.

Long story.

[ArcturusV]

Sounds like an interesting story though.

[Sith_Happens]

Sounds like an interesting story though.

For a certain definition of "interesting." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265338)

[Felandria]

For a certain definition of "interesting." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265338)

Of course, my favorite definition of interesting....

Oh god, Oh god, we're all gonna die.

[Marnath]

Almost done making my character, and so, when I told my friends he has 8 Charisma they immidiately said I have to be introverted, shy and not very talkative.
Is this a good way to go about having 8 Charisma, and is it right? And what other ways can this affect my character while not making me un-talkative (because I am really talkative), or shy.
Thanks ahead, Ben.

Ask if you can take a character trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm). Any of the ones that give a +1 to bluff, intimidate or diplomacy would basically give you a 10 for the purposes of whichever personality you want.

[bendking]

Thanks for all the suggestions, I have a pretty good idea on how to RP my character now.
If anyone has any more ideas, go for it.