Precocious apprentice question.

[kladams707]

No this isn't about early entry. I'm unclear about what happens to the spell once you can actually cast 2nd level spells.

Say I took the feat and chose mirror image as the spell provided. I then reach a high enough level to cast 2nd level spells. Does it take up the allotment of spells I automatically know? Do I forget the spell? Or is it now an extra spell known?

[TaiLiu]

Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell. Until your level is high enough to allow you to cast 2nd-level spells, you must succeed on a DC 8 caster level check to successfully cast this spell; if you fail, the spell is miscast to no effect. Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this level is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances. When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would. Finally, you gain a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks.

There's your answer...

[kladams707]

There's your answer...

Not really or I wouldn't be asking.

[Erik Vale]

I can see the contradiction [seeing as the benifit is the spell slot, but despite you keeping the slot you lose the benefits [Seriously? Drawbacks in refference to concnetration roll maybe]].

In effect, you keep the extra spell known and the extra slot. YMMV as to how powerful that extra slot/spell is depending on your class. I myself use it as a cheap trick to get into dual progressions sooner or for low level followers to get some extra kick.

[nedz]

Are you playing a Wizard or a Sorcerer ?

If you are playing a Wizard then you will end up with an extra spell in your spell book since levelling up adds free spells to your collection.

If you are playing a Sorcerer then you will not end up with an extra spell known because Sorcerers have a defined number of spells known per level and this feat doesn't add to them.

So the Wizard ends up benefiting more from this feat, though the benefit is quite small.

[Alaris]

Are you playing a Wizard or a Sorcerer ?

If you are playing a Wizard then you will end up with an extra spell in your spell book since levelling up adds free spells to your collection.

If you are playing a Sorcerer then you will not end up with an extra spell known because Sorcerers have a defined number of spells known per level and this feat doesn't add to them.

So the Wizard ends up benefiting more from this feat, though the benefit is quite small.

Err... really? I'd argue that. I really would.

So, at first level, a Sorcerer 'knows' "-" or zero 2nd level spells.

And yet, this feat gives him a 2nd level spell. So he now knows 1, even though the table says he knows "-" or zero. I would argue that Precocious Apprentice has ADDED a spell to his known list.

The "Spells" entry under sorcerer says that, as he levels, he "gains" new spells known, in accordance with the table. So I'd say, since the table indicates he still knows zero, even with the precoc Apprentice feat, then he would still get his full spells known when he hits level 4 (1 new 2nd level spell known).

>.>

Sorry for derailment.

[nedz]

Err... really? I'd argue that. I really would.

So, at first level, a Sorcerer 'knows' "-" or zero 2nd level spells.

And yet, this feat gives him a 2nd level spell. So he now knows 1, even though the table says he knows "-" or zero. I would argue that Precocious Apprentice has ADDED a spell to his known list.

The "Spells" entry under sorcerer says that, as he levels, he "gains" new spells known, in accordance with the table. So I'd say, since the table indicates he still knows zero, even with the precoc Apprentice feat, then he would still get his full spells known when he hits level 4 (1 new 2nd level spell known).
I'd like to agree with you, and that's certainly how I would house-rule it, but it's not RAW.

Look at the bolded text in TaiLiu's post (#2):

Basically you lose the benefit you describe as soon as you can cast level 2 spells.

[kladams707]

Playing no arcane classes right now, though looking at them for when my live group switches gears.

Going back to the feat...

After some thought, it seems to me then, for the benefit to be lost, the sorcerer would forget the spell (though he could choose it as one of his second level spells known) and the wizard would have one less spell automatically learned spell.

[nedz]

Not quite, from the Wizard entry in the SRD

At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own
Wizards don't forget spells, and they gain new ones as they level. They can also beg, steal, borrow or buy new ones. The Wizard would end up with one extra 2nd level spell in their spell book.

From the Sorcerer entry you're probably right, though it could be argued that he can't change it.

[kladams707]

I meant that for a wizard to lose the benefit, it would make sense for the spell used for the feat to be one of the two they automatically gain. Otherwise they aren't really losing a benefit. They're just losing the requirement to roll a caster level check.

[Pyromancer999]

It would appear that once the player becomes able to cast 2nd level spells, they retain the spell slot, at the very least. As for what happens to the 2nd level known, as to whether it counts against the number of 2nd level spells known, would seem to be a matter of DM discretion, although one could make an argument for the spell known gained from this feat counting against the spell caster.

[andromax]

My interpretation of that, is that you keep the spell slot, but the chosen spell still counts as one of your spells known. Only really an issue if you're a sorc/bard type. Though, you'd be able to repick it if you didn't like it since you lose access to it and would have to repick it on level up anyways.

[Agincourt]

I'm betting a lot of characters retrain this feat later on; once you are able to cast 4th level spells or so, an extra 2nd level spell each day is a wasted feat.

[andromax]

An extra use of Alter Self is never a wasted feat, though.. it could be better spent on a metamagic feat down the line.

[ericgrau]

You end up with an extra 2nd level spell per day, simple as that.

All the funky wording is saying no you don't also get your old spell on top of that in any way, shape or form. A sorcerer would not get an extra spell known, and his first spell known at level 4 can be anything.