Need help making a Binder.

[Con_Brio1993]

So my current DND group has a variable composition due to having ~7 players with only 3-4 showing up regularly each week. Generally we have two Fighters, a Cleric, and a Monk. We may soon have a Druid but I doubt that player will show up regularly.

So I want to make a Binder because of their versatility, which will probably prove valuable in a party that can vary week to week. Now I know the general Binder 15/KOTSS 5 route, the problem is that the game is unlikely to get past level 10. So the Chupoclops/Ipos charge build is simply not going to work.

Given that information, does anyone have any recommended Binder builds that are good in the low level range but would also be good past level 10?

I have the following stats to work with: 18, 16, 14, 14, 10, 10.

I was thinking possibly: Wizard 2, Binder 1, Anima Mage X.

18 would go into Charisma or Int, the 16 into whichever of those 2 I did not pick, and the 14s into dex and con. Obviously the 10s go into my dump stats. I've heard Charisma isn't actually really that necessary as an anima mage so I may make con my 16 and leave charisma at 14.

Of course to minimize bookkeeping I might do Sorcerer 2 instead of Wizard 2. About how big of a power loss is this? Does it even matter given that most of the party is below tier 3?

If I do go this route, what feats should I pick? Also how does the class play at low levels? I've heard it can get extremely gamebreaking at high levels so I'm not worried about that.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Currently I am thinking

Level 1/Human Bonus Feat: Extend Spell, Improve Initiative.

Level 3 (Sorc 2/Binder 1): Improved Binding

Level 6 (Sorc2/Binder1/Anima Mage 3) : Expel Vestige -> Eventually retrained to Quicken Spell when I get a phylactery.

Level 9 (Sorc2/Binder1/Anima Mage 6): Persist Spell + Vestige Metamagic.

What are the main spells worth persisting anyway? Such a shame I don't get Divine Power like a Cleric.

Level 12: ???

-- What class do I finish this build off with anyway?

Level 15: ???

Level 18: ???

Generally what spells are worthwhile to have?

Also a lot of the vestiges seem to favor melee. Which ones should I actually be binding as an Anima Mage?

[Psyren]

I'd go with Sha'ir instead of Sorc or Wiz - Cha based and all the power of a wizard with only a fraction of the bookkeeping. Don't have the spell you need, send your gen off to get it while you use your binding abilities to hold the fort. You can even bind vestiges and use their powers to teach yourself spells. (e.g. bind Malphas and learn Invisibility by identifying the effect on yourself.)

If that's not an option Sorc is a fine replacement, in either case put the 18 in Cha and the 16 in Con (or Dex), 14 in Int and whichever of the other two you didn't put the 16 in, and 10 in the dump stats. Then pump Cha at every opportunity - your binding check is now trivially easy and your casting is great too.

For your low-level feats I would take Improved Binding and Ignore Special Requirements rather than Extend Spell since you can't get any use of that early on. ISS will allow you to bind Leraje at low levels and put your 14/16 Dex to good use being a decent archer when you want to conserve your spells.

[limejuicepowder]

If the rest of your party is t3 and less, I would say go with the sorc and avoid the bookkeeping. This is just personal preference, but I think the fluff of the binder goes slightly better with the sorc as well. Binders don't strictly need cha, but it does help so it would also reduce MAD-ness. This is especially true if you're not terrible interested in going melee.

In the interest of full disclosure, I've never played a binder but I've always wanted to - they look mad fun. A long-term fun build might be to go in to swiftblade afterwords anima mage. Are haste and improved invisibility persist-able? Paimon would rock pretty hard in a build like that.

[Snowbluff]

Agreed. Cha based casting is the way to go. If Sha'ir isn't allowed, go with Sorc or DN.

If you are a Sha'ir you can finish with Tenebrous Apostate.

You can skip Binder 1 with Bind Vestige. Cheesy, but I though you ought to know.

Swiftblade wins campaigns. <3

[Con_Brio1993]

I don't think Sha'ir will be allowed since neither me nor my DM have ever heard of that class lol.

What book is it from anyway? And yeah I'll probably go Sorcerer since the flavor fits better and I don't need to be super super optimized.

If the build otherwise looks fine I'd like vestige and spell suggestions, especially since as a Sorcerer I'd have such a limited list.

I also think for my Persist spell I'd either go: Polymorph, or Solid Fog. Is it possible to cast spells in some Polymorphed form? Or some guide to Polymorphing? Actually I can cast Polymorph on other people right? Could I transmute the BBEG into a frog?


Agreed. Cha based casting is the way to go. If Sha'ir isn't allowed, go with Sorc or DN.

If you are a Sha'ir you can finish with Tenebrous Apostate.

You can skip Binder 1 with Bind Vestige. Cheesy, but I though you ought to know.

Swiftblade wins campaigns. <3

Sadly you need to be able to bind level 2 or higher vestiges, so the lone Bind Vestige feat won't work I believe. Plus a single level of Binder doesn't hurt me too bad.


If the rest of your party is t3 and less, I would say go with the sorc and avoid the bookkeeping. This is just personal preference, but I think the fluff of the binder goes slightly better with the sorc as well. Binders don't strictly need cha, but it does help so it would also reduce MAD-ness. This is especially true if you're not terrible interested in going melee.

In the interest of full disclosure, I've never played a binder but I've always wanted to - they look mad fun. A long-term fun build might be to go in to swiftblade afterwords anima mage. Are haste and improved invisibility persist-able? Paimon would rock pretty hard in a build like that.

I think any spell with a duration is persistable and then lasts 24 hours. Forever invisible sounds great, considering I have a D4 hit dice... Yeah I won't be going into melee. Unless I polymorph.

[Snowbluff]

You need the Improved Bind Vestige as well. Might not be worth it in the long run, but I love this trick with Warlocks.

[Con_Brio1993]

You need the Improved Bind Vestige as well. Might not be worth it in the long run, but I love this trick with Warlocks.

Yeah I'd rather do the 1 Binder level instead of 2 feats.

Oh also how do you guys think this will fare at low levels? I mean once it hits level 9 I get Persist Spell and that probably means a one way ticket to brokenville. But will I survive to level 9?

As for spells:

Level 1: Grease, Color Spray, Silent Image, Ray of Enfeeblement?

Level 2: Hideous Laughter, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Eagle's Splendor (to make binding equal and increase spell DCs?), other stuff?

Level 3: Fly, Haste, Invisibility Sphere, Clair-audience?

Level 4: Polymorph, Dimension Door, Solid Fog?

[Psyren]

At low levels, take ISS so you can bind Leraje. (She requires you to break an elven arrow to summon her, which can be annoying to find - this feat gets rid of it and you're going to want it later anyway for the even more finicky vestiges.) Leraje makes you a decent archer at low levels (keeping you out of melee where you don't belong.) She gives you longbow prof, Precise Shot, and her Ricochet ability to target two enemies with every arrow. Use your spells to debuff and fire arrows from the back row when magic isn't needed or when you run out.

This will get you to EBL 3, when you can bind Focalor. You can now throw your bow away and spam supernatural lightning bolts when magic isn't needed. From here it is smooth sailing as your spells continue to grow in power and you never run out of lightning.

Also, try to get Binder 2 so you can hide your signs, or be a changeling. Some of them are pretty off-putting.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah I'd rather do the 1 Binder level instead of 2 feats.

Oh also how do you guys think this will fare at low levels? I mean once it hits level 9 I get Persist Spell and that probably means a one way ticket to brokenville. But will I survive to level 9?Works best with flaws and/or retraining.

You'll fare better than a level 8 Sorcerer. You'd do better if you had your second vestige.

[Con_Brio1993]

Works best with flaws and/or retraining.

You'll fare better than a level 8 Sorcerer. You'd do better if you had your second vestige.

Flaws are disallowed sadly. Retraining is acceptable though.


Works best with flaws and/or retraining.

You'll fare better than a level 8 Sorcerer. You'd do better if you had your second vestige.

Yeah the build really kicks in at level 10 with 2 Vestiges. Good to know I'd be good at level 8 though.

[Snowbluff]

Bananananna Banananananan Double Quote! Double Quote! (Sung to the tune of Batman)

If you can retrain, the 2 Feats can be given up once you reach Anima Mage level 3. Sadly, Pact Magic is the best part of ToM, but the PrC Binding progression allows this.

Yeah. You have several good options for Bindings, and good spellcasting.

[Con_Brio1993]

Bananananna Banananananan Double Quote! Double Quote! (Sung to the tune of Batman)

If you can retrain, the 2 Feats can be given up once you reach Anima Mage level 3. Sadly, Pact Magic is the best part of ToM, but the PrC Binding progression allows this.

Yeah. You have several good options for Bindings, and good spellcasting.

Eh I'd rather not abuse the feat retraining too badly. The DM basically allowed it because some of the players are new. It is more there so nobody makes their character unplayable by mistake.

[Snowbluff]

Eh I'd rather not abuse the feat retraining too badly. The DM basically allowed it because some of the players are new. It is more there so nobody makes their character unplayable by mistake.

Hmm... very reasonable. Don't use the trick, I was just explaining it. :smalltongue:

[Con_Brio1993]

Anyway thanks for the help guys.

Any other spell selections? And should I basically be binding Focalor most of the time, except for when I need the odd ability? Actually given that I can get Invisibility and remote viewing from vestiges, should I focus on other spells and ignore things like Invisibiltiy and Mirror Image?

[Psyren]

As an Anima Mage you can bind whatever you feel like. Focalor is an option for if you worry about running out of attack spells or if you prefer utility/control spells rather than keeping something to attack with. He's one of the better vestiges for a casty binder but not the only choice. Judging from your party makeup though it sounds like staying at range is your best bet, and few vestiges are better at that than Focalor (at the level you get him anyway.) Supernatural lightning means no spell resistance or AoO, so if something gets near you or is resisting your magic you have options. In addition, his sadness aura and blinding breath are useful tricks for a caster as well.

[Con_Brio1993]

As an Anima Mage you can bind whatever you feel like. Focalor is an option for if you worry about running out of attack spells or if you prefer utility/control spells rather than keeping something to attack with. He's one of the better vestiges for a casty binder but not the only choice. Judging from your party makeup though it sounds like staying at range is your best bet, and few vestiges are better at that than Focalor (at the level you get him anyway.)

As far as I understand, control spells are way better than damage spells. I may take the odd damage spell or two though.

And obviously I don't want to bind anything useless that only gives melee advantages. Maybe I'd bind Beur for infinite out of battle healing. Or Dah-Nahr for the DR and half damage taken to enemy. Or that vestige that lets you turn ethereal for a bit, though that's high level I believe.

[limejuicepowder]

Anyway thanks for the help guys.

Any other spell selections? And should I basically be binding Focalor most of the time, except for when I need the odd ability? Actually given that I can get Invisibility and remote viewing from vestiges, should I focus on other spells and ignore things like Invisibiltiy and Mirror Image?

I would say get invisibility. Turning invisible is useful and very broadly applicable - you don't want to find yourself in the situation of needing it but not having the right vestige.

Most of your spell selections should be as versatile as possible. You will always have them, thus they are the most reliable. Since the vestiges (and vestige powers) change every day, use them for the unique/specialty stuff.

For fluff and fun though, I would save at least a few spell slots for more niche spells that combo especially well with certain vestige powers. I can't think of a particular example of this, but it should be easy enough to match some stuff up.

It seems to me that the main fun of the binder is choosing a new vestige every day. Some can obviously be ruled out, but I would try to use as many as I could. You might find some ability that is really good in-game, even if it doesn't jump out at you on paper.

[Con_Brio1993]

I would say get invisibility. Turning invisible is useful and very broadly applicable - you don't want to find yourself in the situation of needing it but not having the right vestige.

Most of your spell selections should be as versatile as possible. You will always have them, thus they are the most reliable. Since the vestiges (and vestige powers) change every day, use them for the unique/specialty stuff.

For fluff and fun though, I would save at least a few spell slots for more niche spells that combo especially well with certain vestige powers. I can't think of a particular example of this, but it should be easy enough to match some stuff up.

It seems to me that the main fun of the binder is choosing a new vestige every day. Some can obviously be ruled out, but I would try to use as many as I could. You might find some ability that is really good in-game, even if it doesn't jump out at you on paper.

Yeah the fun of being a Binder is the rotating powerset you can get. And the roleplaying potential if you fail a binder check, or choose to show the sign.

Anyway I'll look at the vestiges again and see if any spell combos pop out. If anyone knows any preexisting combos I'd love to see them. :)

edit: Actually I realize without 2 levels in Binder I have to show the physical sign even if I pass the check. This will be fun to play for sure. :)

[Psyren]

As far as I understand, control spells are way better than damage spells. I may take the odd damage spell or two though.[/url]

They are but they're not as useful for a sorcerer. You rarely need to spam control spells after all (how many Webs or Solid Fogs do you need in one fight?) so you'll typically cast one and then wish you knew other spells.

So a prepared caster like a Sha'ir or Wizard plays controller better. You guess how many fights you're going to have that day, prepare that many control spells, then you've got the rest of your slots to play with - a dash of utility, some buffing for the melee, some debuffing, and a few summons or other toolbox spells for general purpose use. And it works even better for Anima Mage because, hey, if you're short one fireball you can spam lightning on your turns instead.

[QUOTE=Con_Brio1993;14576969]And obviously I don't want to bind anything useless that only gives melee advantages. Maybe I'd bind Beur for infinite out of battle healing. Or Dah-Nahr for the DR and half damage taken to enemy. Or that vestige that lets you turn ethereal for a bit, though that's high level I believe.

Buer's okay; don't bind her when the druid shows up, let him use a CLW wand for out of combat healing instead. Dahlver-Nar is strictly a melee vestige so skip him. Agares is a decent one, you'll have a high save DC on the stomp (useful to get out of melee) and the earth elemental is handy as well even though it scales slowly. Malphas is good if you have summons or other non-attack spells (like battlefield control) that you can lay down while cloaked.



Most of your spell selections should be as versatile as possible. You will always have them, thus they are the most reliable. Since the vestiges (and vestige powers) change every day, use them for the unique/specialty stuff.

It's hard to change vestiges during the day though. Expel Vestige is only usable once and you will need 20 rounds of free time (10 to eject and 10 to bind a new one) plus you are very likely going to eat a hefty penalty on your next binding check even if you succeed.

What this means is that you'll either want to know what you're up against that day (which prepared casters are again better at doing) or be good at guessing; otherwise you will probably want a universally applicable vestige. Focalor and Malphas are generally useful for a caster for instance regardless of what you're up against. but Haagenti and Eurynome are so situational as to be useless.



It seems to me that the main fun of the binder is choosing a new vestige every day. Some can obviously be ruled out, but I would try to use as many as I could. You might find some ability that is really good in-game, even if it doesn't jump out at you on paper.

You can play that way if you want but you'll be more effective learning to use a handful of vestiges regularly (including dealing with their influence when it comes up.) A gish or straight binder can play with them a bit more but too many of the vestiges are melee focused for a caster binder to have many viable options.

[limejuicepowder]

Depending on the availability of wands, Karsus could be pretty good - he boosts the DC of spells from items by 2. The dispel magic could also be useful, since you'll get it much faster than the actual spell.

What alignment are you going to be? It's 3.0 material, but Lahm's finger darts + naberius is a little insane: it's basically magic missile but each one does d4 dex damage. A couple of those against a brute-type and he's going to be paralyzed (or whatever happens to 0 dex creatures). They can also be used to soften up AC so the fighters can power attack for more. Naberius is mostly known for the ability healing, but he has some very solid other powers as well.

Savnok could be fun as well. The armor will be of little use, but invisibility + move ally could potentially be extremely good. Cast invisibility on yourself then swap places with an ally that's in trouble. Opponents won't be looking to hit you so you'll be in little danger, and it'll look like your ally just teleported out of combat.

There's probably other tasty corrupt spells, but my copy of BoVD is at a friend's house.

Edit: Graz'zt's Long Grasp, another BoVD spell, could work quite well. It detaches one of your hands which can then fly around and deliver touch attacks for you. Many of the vestiges have neat touch attack abilities that you wouldn't normally want to use cause you're a caster, but with this you can remain relatively safe. Karsus' dispel touch comes immediately to mind, but there are other as well. Delivering touch-buff spells also becomes a cinch mid-combat.

[Con_Brio1993]

So Psyren, which control spells should I end up taking? I have an ok amount of spells known. Maybe I should just devote half of them to the better control spells?

Or maybe just go prepared caster, though then I'd need Charisma, Intelligence, and Constitution. Of course I have ways to buff charisma with spells for when I need to make checks.

Also how does a Wizard figure out which spells he will need for the day? I know people say "contact other plane" but where does it mention other planes having this future information?

Edit: What about an Archivist? Do I want Wizard, Archivist, or Sorcerer as my base spellcasting class?

[Psyren]

You want Sha'ir if you can get it, that way you are a prepared caster without Int. If you can't, Sorcerer is fine, it's just that you'll have slower progression and a couple of spells that won't work quite as well spontaneously.

Rather than bug your DM with divinations about tomorrow I would just stick with vestiges that are broadly useful. Most of them are for melee so you won't have too many to worry about choosing from.

You also won't have to worry about finding wands, with Karsus + Astaroth you can make any wands you want.

[Con_Brio1993]

So looking at the Sha'ir, I am basically at the DM's mercy for getting both the spells I want and getting the spells in time.

So my final build is Sorcerer 1/Binder 1/Anima Mage 10/??? (Obviously something to increase spell casting.. maybe just fall back into Sorcerer? Any prestige classes with only skill point/alignment requirements and no pesky feat requirements?)

10 Strength
14 Dexterity
16 Constitution
14 Intelligence
10 Wisdom
18 Charisma

Level 1: Improved Binding.

Human: Precocious Apprentice -> Retrained to Improved Initiative

Level 3: Extend Spell (Possibly retrained into a more useful metamagic after obtaining Persist Spell)

Level 6: Expel Vestige (replaced with Quicken Spell after getting phylactery)

Level 9: Persist Spell

Higher level feats determined by what I finish the build off with.

Familiar: Raven

Spells Known @ level 9 (effectively a level 8 Sorcerer)

Level 0 (8 known)

Read Magic
Detect Magic
Prestidigitation
Ghost Sound
Light
Message
Mending


Level 1 (5 known)

True Strike
Grease
Ray of Enfeeblement
Silent Image


Level 2 (3 known)

Web
Glitterdust
Invisibility

Level 3 (2 known)

Ray of Exhaustion
Fireball

Level 4 (1 known)

Polymorph


Overall I feel my spell selection is terrible. However, if I go the Wizard route I feel I'd do worse since I wouldn't be able to make a large number of the binding checks.

So should I stick with the above (maybe change a few spells) or go Wizard with the following stat distribution?

10 Strength
14 Dexterity
16 Constitution
18 Intelligence
10 Wisdom
14 Charisma

[Psyren]

So looking at the Sha'ir, I am basically at the DM's mercy for getting both the spells I want and getting the spells in time.

That's your choice but you're not quite right. You get two free spells per level and you don't have to "know"a spell to cast it either, not the same way a wizard does. Plus you can "learn" magic from your vestiges, from scrolls, from wands, from summons... anything that lets roll spellcraft. You're much less at your DM's mercy than you would be with a wizard, and can even learn from a scroll/wand while casting from it.

Extend Spell at first level is a wasted feat, you can't do anything worthwhile with it until level 4+. I still vote for Improved Binding/Ignore Special Requirements first.

[Con_Brio1993]

That's your choice but you're not quite right. You get two free spells per level and you don't have to "know"a spell to cast it either, not the same way a wizard does. Plus you can "learn" magic from your vestiges, from scrolls, from wands, from summons... anything that lets roll spellcraft. You're much less at your DM's mercy than you would be with a wizard, and can even learn from a scroll/wand while casting from it.

Extend Spell at first level is a wasted feat, you can't do anything worthwhile with it until level 4+. I still vote for Improved Binding/Ignore Special Requirements first.

Extend Spell is a prerequisite for Persist Spell. And the character is thankfully starting ~level 4-5.

Anyway you make a convincing argument. I'll think it over one last time. Is there any chance the DM could have my genie familiar killed on the way to get me my spells?

Also other than a short blurb on the Wizards site I am having trouble finding actual details about the class, so hopefully my DM has the book.

edit: For some reason I thought I had to be Spellcaster 2 to enter the class. I actually need to be able to cast level 2 spells.

So I have to take Precocious Apprentice at level 1. Then Improved Binding as my Human Bonus. At level 3 I can be an Anima Mage. This has the benefit that at level 9 I'd effectively be a level 8 sorcerer and level 8 Binder.