Meteor Swarm optimization

[Snowbluff]

So! This spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/meteorSwarm.htm) is really cool, but almost entirely useless. How would I optimize this? My instinct starts with Arcane Thesis, and maybe Eldritch Theurge to remove the spell resistance.

[ericgrau]

Normally I would only have it as an option. The spell is useful because of its long range, large area of effect and being able to distribute the spheres onto the battlefield where needed. Nothing wipes an army better AFAIK.

But if you do want to build around it, I'd get some kind of shaping or fire protection for the whole party. The ability to hit every single foe in the room at once (but not allies) would add up to a tremendous amount of damage and be much better than most other spells, even other good 9s like wail of the banshee a lot of the time. Some energy substitution like the archmage ability would be handy too, plus archmage can give you shaping as well. Though as common as fire resistance is compared to other energy types it's still pretty uncommon. I'd be more worried about SR which you seem to be addressing already. And if you do get a shaping ability, I might pick up both meteor swarm and wail of the banshee. Then select based on the immunities and saves of your foes.

The spell gets flak for lack of single target damage, which clearly isn't its purpose.

[TopCheese]

A friend of mine played a Totemist/Wizard/Soul Caster that could grapple just about anything and then would pin the creature right before hitting them (and people around him) with a Meteor Swarm... He was immune to the damage and the enemy is pretty screwed.

I don't know the specifics but it was just fantastic when he dubbed it the "lovey dovey hurtful hug attack"

[Vaz]

Energy Substitution makes it useable in the long term (Sonic, or Acid, especially).

However, it won't do that much damage - effectively 4x 8d8 at 20th is around 112 damage on a 20th Level Caster. Admittedly, it's 4 8x8 boxes, but that's not especially powerful. Problem is, other spells do the same or more damage.

The spell gets flak for being a fire AoE spell used against opponents often with high SR/Fire Resistance/reflex saves, and occasionally all three.

Being able to bypass any of those is one way to go - however, the other problem is that while reducing enemies reflex or SR by any means makes Meteor Shower more powerfully in a linear manner, it quadratically expedites in regards to other spells; often ones available earlier.

[nedz]

The purpose of this spell is to say "Keep off the Grass, I can cast 9ths".
Optimising MS is a bit like optimising a light cantrip.

[ericgrau]

In addition to what I pointed out above, reflex tends to be the lowest save and some foes don't even get a save.

Given high level hp, you need to hit more than ~2 targets for it to be better than a single target save or lose. Or more than 1.5 times as many targets as another area save or lose that might not get as many targets for various reasons like smaller area, much more common immunities (like undead/construct immunities), range and so on. That's the point when it becomes better than your other spell options.

[Snowbluff]

The purpose of this spell is to say "Keep off the Grass, I can cast 9ths".
Optimising MS is a bit like optimising a light cantrip.

Someone is actually doing that, which is what inspired this thread.

[nedz]

Well obvious +0 Metamagics are:

Invisible Spell — or I don't know what just hit us but it was a bit warm

Energy Substitution (electricity), Born of The Three Thunders — which will be loud and might stun or knock prone

Lord of the Uttercold — which might interact nicely with certain undead minions

But you could do all of these with Fireball

[Snowbluff]

Well obvious +0 Metamagics are:

Invisible Spell — or I don't know what just hit us but it was a bit warm


I think this would defeat part of the purpose. Hahahah! :smalltongue:

[Randomguy]

Here's a first attempt:

1. Be a kobold (dragonwrought is optional, but as always recommended)
2. Preform the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage
3. Be a Sorcerer 5/Incantatrix 6/Sandshaper 9, making the 9th level of Sandshaper your 20th level.
4. Take Iron will, Arcane Thesis (meteor swarm), searing spell, fiery spell, blistering spell, Twin Spell, Easy metamagic (twin spell) and practical metamagic (twin spell). Two of those are bonus feats from incantatrix.

If Easy metamagic is not allowed (it's from dragon), take Versatile Spellcaster instead.


You can apply searing, fiery and blistering spell to Meteor Swarm normally thanks to arcane thesis.
You can use improved and greater dust magic to maximize and empower Meteor Swarm.
If you took Easy Metamagic, you can apply Twin spell to Meteor Swarm normally, if not then you need to spend 2 9th level slots to get a 10th level slot, which you can use to add on twin.

The resultant twinned maximized empowered fiery searing blistering Meteor Storm does an average of 708 fire damage, half damage against creatures immune to fire. And in a pinch you can enlarge it or widen it or both.

Changeling going into recaster to get sudden metamagic could also work, but you can't apply 2 sudden effects so you'd need a sudden metamagic feat or a metamagic rod of empower spell to do the same damage.

You could probably pump the damage up even more by swapping blistering spell for something like enervate spell and taking Versatile Spellcaster. That way you could cast a 10th level version that does on average 976 damage (I think) but it would do less colateral damage and less damage against undead. But if you want to use it against undead, just don't enervate it.

And now that I think of it, you could probably rehash things to make it stronger. Maybe by taking only 5 sandshaper levels and all 10 levels of incantatrix, for example. In that case an elf wizard might be stronger because you could use Dark Chaos Shuffle to swap out proficiencies for metamagic feats.

[Amphetryon]

Snowcasting: Your Meteor Swarm runs hot and cold.

Blistering Spell + Flash Frost Spell: I bet you thought "Immune" meant no damage, didn't you? Secondary effects are also potentially useful.

Explosive Spell: There's clearing a room, and there's clearing a room with style.

Season to taste.

[Gildedragon]

Someone is actually doing that, which is what inspired this thread.

Sorry to be off topic, but seriously? I need to see that.

Maximizing or Empowering it seems to be one of the few things to max with it.
Though Explosive Spell may be quite nice to have all targets that don't make the save fly around like ragdolls

[nedz]

It might work quite well as a Living Spell.

Most of the qualities depend on CL, though some depend on SL — both of these are high in any case.

It's unclear, but they ought to come in groups of four.

The save DC is given by 10 + SL + Cha Mod, but Cha = 10 + SL, so we have 1.5 Cha to DC. This is going to be DC 23, which is rubbish, unless we can optimise that ?

[kardar233]

Snowcasting: Your Meteor Swarm runs hot and cold.

Blistering Spell + Flash Frost Spell: I bet you thought "Immune" meant no damage, didn't you? Secondary effects are also potentially useful.

Explosive Spell: There's clearing a room, and there's clearing a room with style.

Season to taste.

Not sure what you mean by your statement about "immune" there. The metamagics that bypass immunity are Searing Spell and Piercing Cold, though Piercing Cold has the drawback of letting people with the [Cold] subtype survive, including anyone buffed with Mantle of the Icy Soul. Probably not a common buff unless you're dealing with CL-boosters that use Algid Enhancement, but something to think about.

[Amphetryon]

Not sure what you mean by your statement about "immune" there. The metamagics that bypass immunity are Searing Spell and Piercing Cold, though Piercing Cold has the drawback of letting people with the [Cold] subtype survive, including anyone buffed with Mantle of the Icy Soul. Probably not a common buff unless you're dealing with CL-boosters that use Algid Enhancement, but something to think about.

1. A list of creatures natively immune to both Cold and Fire types is, to my knowledge, short.

2. The short listing of the Feats I was looking at (HeroForge) merely said "damage" without specifying that the damage was of the same type. This incomplete wording appeared to provide damage that would bypass the rare doubly-native immunities to Heat/Cold (I am aware it is possible to gain said immunities otherwise; I have no doubt Snowbluff is similarly aware of this, and yet wishes to optimize a spell with this particular "shortcoming.") I apologize for using the short-form listing in a secondary source, if such apology is what you're looking for. In any event, I stand by the comment on the potential usefulness of the secondary effects.

3. "Season to taste" was meant indicate additional metamagic options could also be applied - for example, Searing Spell and Piercing Cold. I apologize for not being more explicit in this comment, as it was apparently insufficient.

[Tvtyrant]

Well it is effectively 4 rays which then do splash damage to opponents in the surrounding area. If you hit with the touch attack they get no save, but if you miss they explode anyways.

Oddly enough a Spellwarp Sniper/Legacy Champion could actually make the area effect of the orbs into rays, as it is still an area spell. I'm not sure how this would work out by RAW, but it looks like you could actually hit someone with the orbs and then hit someone else with the rays (since they are technically different.)

[nedz]

Well it is effectively 4 rays which then do splash damage to opponents in the surrounding area. If you hit with the touch attack they get no save, but if you miss they explode anyways.

Oddly enough a Spellwarp Sniper/Legacy Champion could actually make the area effect of the orbs into rays, as it is still an area spell. I'm not sure how this would work out by RAW, but it looks like you could actually hit someone with the orbs and then hit someone else with the rays (since they are technically different.)

Interesting idea. Does this mean you could add Sneak or Skirmish damage to the orbs ? Though you would need a Gish build which had those, and still get 9s. How about Craven too ?
The splash damage would not benefit, but you can't have everything.

[Tvtyrant]

Interesting idea. Does this mean you could add Sneak or Skirmish damage to the orbs ? Though you would need a Gish build which had those, and still get 9s. How about Craven too ?
The splash damage would not benefit, but you can't have everything.

You can get Sneak Attack damage on the first orb, but according to the volley rules not the other three.

What I was suggesting is weirder; Spellwarp Sniper allows you to transform an area spell into a ray. Meteor Swarm is an area spell, but the orbs are separate from the area effect. If I am reading it right you could actually shoot four orbs at a target, and then when the orbs detonate instead of an explosion there would be 4 more rays to shoot.

[Hirax]

Is there a way to get evasion to not work for those that aren't directly targeted?

[Arcanist]

Is there a way to get evasion to not work for those that aren't directly targeted?

Make them flat-footed.

[TuggyNE]

Make them flat-footed.

What good would that do? They'd still make a Reflex save, and (per the rules of Evasion) it still works unless they're helpless.

[Vaz]

You autofail reflex saves at Dex 0, so Paralyze them. Of course, they're already out of the encounter here, so it's a little pointless.

That's the main "problem" with spells like this; to make them continually useful, you need to use other spells, which already do the job for you.