What are the main uses of Will, Fort, and Reflex saves?

[bendking]

I understand this is kind of noobish of me to ask, but still, I'm not exactly familiar with the amount or importance of these saves because in my party's games we barely ever used them..
Thanks ahead, Ben.

[Psyren]

Fort is the most important because many effects that can either debilitate you (e.g. poisons and diseases) or kill you outright (e.g. SoDs) call for a Fort save.

Will is almost as important because will saves typically remove you from a fight at best (things like stunning and dazing) or at worst, make you work for the enemy (charm, confusion, dominate) which can actually be worse than killing you since it's a 2-point swing in the enemy's favor rather than 1.

Reflex saves are typically to avoid damage of some kind, so a high hit-point total can often compensate for a low reflex save. But some reflex saves are to avoid something that can also remove you from a fight, e.g. Resilient Sphere.

[Who What Now]

If it affects your body, then its a FORT save.

If it affects your mind, then its a WILL save.

If it's trying to hit you, then its a REF save.

There are quite a few expections, but thats a general rule of thumb.

[Necroticplague]

Fort is the most important because many effects that can either debilitate you (e.g. poisons and diseases) or kill you outright (e.g. SoDs) call for a Fort save.

Will is almost as important because will saves typically remove you from a fight at best (things like stunning and dazing) or at worst, make you work for the enemy (charm, confusion, dominate) which can actually be worse than killing you since it's a 2-point swing in the enemy's favor rather than 1.

Reflex saves are typically to avoid damage of some kind, so a high hit-point total can often compensate for a low reflex save. But some reflex saves are to avoid something that can also remove you from a fight, e.g. Resilient Sphere.

Pretty much spot-on, though would like to add that their are also a good amount of will saves against deaths, though nearly all of them are mind affecting.

To generalize and shorten (with common examples):

Fort:things a healthy or reselient person can shrug off (poisons, diseases, most things related to outdoor and travel conditions, necromancery)

Will:things a magically-tuned person can rebuke (enchantments,possession)

Ref:things an incredibly agile person could avoid (evocations, entanglement, shifting terrain conditions)

Thus, the general order of saves in order of importance is Fort->Will->Ref.

This is especially true because a lot of things are Fort (none)or Will (none), while a lot of Ref are Ref (half).

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Thus, the general order of saves in order of importance is Fort->Will->Ref.

This is especially true because a lot of things are Fort (none)or Will (none), while a lot of Ref are Ref (half).It depends a lot on the campaign and what you're fighting but reflex generally is the least important. (The other two go back and forth much more in my expecience.) A lot of what good Reflex ends up saving you from is damage (Fireball) and position effects (avoiding a Blade Barrier) whereas Fortitude and Will guard against a lot of nastier stuff (save-or-die, save-or-suck, ability damage from poison, disease and the like, getting involuntarilly plane shifted, mind control, etc.)

[laeZ1]

Mechanically, the main uses of these saves are the negate or reduce the effects of enemy spells and traps.

A good first step for you is to open up to the spell section of your Player's Handbook, and read about what different spells do (including flavor text), and look at what sort of save is required to negate or reduce the spell's effects.

People with good fortitude are hearty, and their bodies can withstand more abuse (internally). Poisons, for instance, are effective less often against them.

People with good Will saves have strong minds, and their mental barriers are harder to bypass, warp, or break. "these aren't the droids you're looking for" might not work on another Jedi.

People with good Reflex saves are good at getting out of the way of danger that their armor wouldn't help them against. If a pit opened up underfoot, or somebody's shooting lightning at you, it's more important to rely on your speed than your armor to save you.

Hope that helps.

[Person_Man]

There are three basic ways for a character to die. Hit point loss, failing a Saving Throw, or DM fiat.

Hit point loss is the most common. You take too much damage, and you die.

Saving Throws are less common, but very DM dependent. Sometimes you can take multiple Saving Throws per round, and other times you could go for an entire campaign without ever making a particular Saving Throw roll. A failed Saving Throw usually just results in hit point damage (and thus, can also be mitigated by just having a lot of hit points). But sometimes it imposes a penalty or effect which seriously hampers your ability to act ("Save or Suck"), and sometimes it kills you ("Save or Lose" or "Save or Die").

DM fiat comes in two varieties. Either the DM just kills you with the plot ("Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies" or a decision of an NPC based on your interaction with them, such as the King ordering your execution), or the DM chooses to use an effect that does not allow a Saving Throw that effectively kills you. (Although in many cases, these "No Save" effects just cause hit point damage or a minor penalty).

Thus, the most important factors in keeping your character alive are high Constitution (and thus high hit points), investing a few class levels, Feats, spells, and or items in getting decent Saving Throw bonuses, and not being a jerk to your DM.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Wouldn't will be more important than fort because I can think of many things that a failed will save can cause that are worse than death but the nastiest thing that a fort save can cause in general is death. For example, mindrape, sanctify the wicked, ... I can think of more but these are two big ones.

[Story]

I doubt a DM will target you with stuff like that though.

[AuraTwilight]

Wouldn't will be more important than fort because I can think of many things that a failed will save can cause that are worse than death but the nastiest thing that a fort save can cause in general is death. For example, mindrape, sanctify the wicked, ... I can think of more but these are two big ones.

Phantasmal Killer.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Phantasmal Killer.

What? I looked up the spell and it looks like you have to fail a will save and then a fort save to die. I'm not saying that will has no SOD, its just that as a moral/IC standpoint there are a lot of nasty things that can happen from a failed will save.

[ericgrau]

A thing people tend to miss is that multi-target spells and monster special abilities tend to be reflex based more often than the others. So while you may think the effect is less important, you'll be making many more reflex saves compared to other saves. Think of it this way: if it hits 3-4 party members instead of 1, you will be hit 3-4 times as often because most hits won't go to an ally instead of you like other effects do. And these are more often the ones that kill you. The others are sometimes the ones that kill you. When fighting monsters there's not much difference between incapacitating and killing, but when you're a PC receiving one or the other you'd much rather be incapacitated. There are exceptions but they are exceptions. Around level 15 and higher I might be more afraid of monster insta-kills.

It does vary by monster, campaign and level, but generally I'd put ref > will > fort.

Saph did a Red Hand of Doom test for example and ref was ahead by a mile.

In my current campaign we're allowed full customization on our ability selection rather than taking classes. We all got evasion and it saves our lives such a ridiculous number of times each session that it has become a running gag. "Dang... oh, nevermind, I evasion it." "I evasion it too." "Same here."

[SowZ]

In my experience, Fort saves come up more often than Will saves and Fort saves have many of the worst effects, (Death,) BUT the very debilitating Will saves come up more often whereas the very worst Fort saves I get hit with less. For one, DMs don't seem too hesitant to cast dominate or suggestion but are hesitant to use save or die.

Plus, I have trouble avoiding will save inducing things. Fort save inducers I can often avoid with intelligent play.

[Shining Wrath]

As has been noted, Fort saves are against things attacking your body, Will saves against things attacking your mind, and Reflex saves are things trying to hit you, and it is worse to miss Fort than Will, and worse to miss Will than Reflex.

BUT ...

If you look at the spells and monsters, there are more effects requiring Will and Reflex saves than Fort saves. Fort is pretty much poison and disease. Compare that to the number of stun / confuse / dominate spells, and the enormous number of area effect spells / breath weapons.

So I'd say that in practice all three are roughly equal. Mathematically, the expected value of a good save score is "chance you'll have to make that saving roll" * "measure of how bad it is to fail". Fort has the lowest score in the first metric but the highest score in the second.

[Psyren]

But sometimes it imposes a penalty or effect which seriously hampers your ability to act ("Save or Suck"), and sometimes it kills you ("Save or Lose" or "Save or Die").

I consider those last two to be separate categories - "Save or Die" referring to actual death (as it is the most difficult condition for a character to reverse on its own), and "Save or Lose" referring to something that removes you from the fight entirely without killing you. This would include removal effects like Maze or Plane Shift, as well as effects like Dominate or Hold Person that keep you alive but unable to fight for your side.

The difference being that, depending on a character's capabilities they may be able to overcome or bypass a SoL effect with few problems. (e.g. if you Maze a cleric, he can just plane shift back on his turn.) But death is unique because most characters need outside help to overcome it.

[Person_Man]

It does vary by monster, campaign and level, but generally I'd put ref > will > fort.

Saph did a Red Hand of Doom test for example and ref was ahead by a mile.

In my current campaign we're allowed full customization on our ability selection rather than taking classes. We all got evasion and it saves our lives such a ridiculous number of times each session that it has become a running gag. "Dang... oh, nevermind, I evasion it." "I evasion it too." "Same here."


I agree with the general Ref > Will > Fort hierarchy as well. Though it's worth noting that Red Hand of Doom as a ton of dragons, and dragons use breath weapons a lot. So obviously it's very DM dependent. I once had a low level campaign in the woods where it seemed like every other animal, vermin, and plant was poisonous or diseased, so there were a ton of Fort Saves.

Your Evasion comment reminds me of another important point - if you can get immunity (or something close to it) to the common effects required by a Saving Throw then you don't have to worry too often about that Save.

For Reflex Saves it's Improved Evasion (or normal Evasion plus decent Saving Throws or Energy Resistance or just high hit points). For Will Saves it's Immunity to Mind Affecting Effects (which I think costs 2 Feats - Willing Deformity + Deformity Madness). For Fort Saves it's Immunity to Poison and Stun (and maybe Paralysis at higher levels).

The larger point is that high Con + a moderate investment in AC and some defensive abilities is really all you need to get you through 90% of combats. You shouldn't spend massive amounts of character resources to prepare for that one die roll vs some crazy spell effect that you might see once per campaign.

[Eldariel]

They're all really more common than you'd think if you take average D&D beastiary. Basically any creature beyond animal (and even some of those) has something that offers a save; some more severe than others.

Non-magically Fort is probably the most important since poisons, disease and such are all non-magical and target Fort. Ref second; landslides, catching fire and such all use Reflex. Will's rarely targeted by non-magical effects outside Fear attacks.

Magic kinda hits all equally tho. Or rather, there are so many ways to hit them all that it's impossible to say which you'll face the most. It's not really DM-dependent as much as campaign dependent; if you expect a lot of breaths, Ref is gonna be big (Dragon breaths surpass all but the most pimped out magic for Ref-based damage, and a pimped out Dragon breath weapon is even more brutal), if you expect a lot of Outsiders better shore up your Will and Fort, and especially Fort vs. Undead (they tend to have lots of death-type attacks). And then there are brutal attacks you can't protect against with saves (hello, Enervation! Or Irresistible Dance) but those are quite rare.

Ultimately, they're all important and any kind of a hierarchy is on a mere "It depends"-basis. Metagame or just expect to roll all.