3.5 -Is there a RAW way to gain Divine Rank?

[AzazelSephiroth]

Just as the topic states...
My google-fu has failed me apparently, so I come to the boards... I am in a very high powered and very cool campaign being run by a friend who is willing to allow almost anything as long as it is within the rules and within "reason".

I have a powerful dragon wizard who wishes to become a god... is there a way/precedent within the material?
Campaign specific material maybe allowed as long as it does not require anything only in that campaign setting.
Basically I must make the best argument with evidence I can, and if it is good enough he may allow Divinity...:smallbiggrin:

Thank You all in advance for your awesome help!

[Daftendirekt]

No. 10char.

[Arcanist]

I have a powerful dragon wizard who wishes to become a god... is there a way/precedent within the material?

Dragon Ascendant's capstone gives you a DvR0.

[Gildedragon]

Isn't there some cheese involving ice assassins, a familiar and a kobold to get divine ranks? Starts with P, but can't quite put my finger on it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think there's a divine salient ability that will allow a deity to invest some of his own divine rank into another character. It's only a single point though and gaining more beyond that isn't given definitive RAW; only a set of suggestions in the appendix in Deities and Demigods.

[VGLordR2]

There is also the Demigod Epic Destiny (http://web.archive.org/web/20090218080723/http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080428). That may be too high of a level for you, though.

[Jeraa]

The dragon ascendant never says you gain a divine rank. While it does say


Immortality (Ex): A 12th-level dragon ascendant is actually a quasi-deity, and can no longer die from natural causes. It does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe. It can still be slain in physical or magical combat, and it is still subject to death from massive damage.

it seems its using the term "quasi-deity" in a different way then Deities & Demigods does. It doesn't say anything about gaining a divine rank, or looking up what you get, or even mentions Deities & Demigods.

[AzazelSephiroth]

Wow quick replies! Thanks for the answers although they all seem to be negatory. :smallfrown:

Hmm perhaps I can convince a deity to invest some of his Divine Rank in me and then increase it from there.

[Invader]

The dragon ascendant never says you gain a divine rank. While it does say



it seems its using the term "quasi-deity" in a different way then Deities & Demigods does. It doesn't say anything about gaining a divine rank, or looking up what you get, or even mentions Deities & Demigods.

Why is that any different than the exact SRD definition of a quasi diety? It seems perfectly clear that you get divine rank 0 as the description of what you get from the class and the description of what you get from divine rank 0 are almost identical.

[TaiLiu]

You can get divine rank zero by using Shrouds of the Unholy (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x) to become an Atropal.

[Gildedragon]

Getting a deity to regard you as mighty enough to have a divine rank is a pretty good capstone for a quest.

Then again, ascending to rank 0 is not too bad, and some DMs may allow it.

If you're playing Pathfinder there is this place where you run a gauntlet and become a god.

Killing a god, if highlander rules apply, could get your dragon deified.

But seeing as how divinity is the purview of the DM: ask first.

[AzazelSephiroth]

Shrouds of the Unholy seem a bit creepy and not exactly the route I was hoping for ;-)

My only concern about having a deity invest power in me is having them rescind it later...

[Gildedragon]

So have a deity beholden to you.
I strongly advice against this, as divinity should be something that emerges from DM-Player interaction, rather than the latter wanting to do it despite the former.
Nonetheless there is a RAW way to get this as I alluded earlier. This is from an old PunPun version, the long and short is you get an ice assassin of whatever got you want, have it make you a proxy. Since the IA is under your control, it will never rescind its rank.

[Alleran]

I think there's a divine salient ability that will allow a deity to invest some of his own divine rank into another character. It's only a single point though and gaining more beyond that isn't given definitive RAW; only a set of suggestions in the appendix in Deities and Demigods.
Any deity can invest power into a proxy (making them a rank 1 demigod) - it doesn't require any particular ability. It's the key element behind Pun-Pun's ascension to godhood, where he creates a bunch of ice assassins of a deity and then has them invest him with divine rank. I guess that depending on your interpretation of Manipulate Form, you could create an ability that grants you divine rank, but be prepared to dodge flying DMGs aimed at your head.

Other RAW options I know of are just the Dragon Ascendant capstone, which states that you become a quasi-deity with DvR 0. However, the requirements to get into the class (which is twelve levels in and of itself) are prohibitive, and need epic levels. I wasn't aware of the "Shrouds of the Unholy" trick to turn into an Atropal, but I guess that would get you divine rank as well. It's a bit, well, creepy, though.

I think the general accepted position of divine rank 0 is LA +6 or something like that (DvR 1+ is impossible to gauge because of SDAs).

[AzazelSephiroth]

Ice assassin seems to be a RAW way to do it except how in the world do I obtain a piece of the deity I wish to re-create?!
And of course the deity in question would be able to sense this as it clearly affects their portfolio... hmm

[Gildedragon]

Not necesarily. If the ice assassin's gonna do nothing and you don't intend to intrude on their schtick, the assassin's existence doesn't affect their domain.

[AzazelSephiroth]

You make a good point, but since the Ice Assassin has a overpowering urge to destroy its "predecessor" I would think that may set off a ping...:smalleek:

Still all of this gives me a few ways to argue for potential story line acquisition.:smallsmile:

[Arcanist]

Ice assassin seems to be a RAW way to do it except how in the world do I obtain a piece of the deity I wish to re-create?!

Spell Component Pouch. As it is worthless it is in there.


And of course the deity in question would be able to sense this as it clearly affects their portfolio... hmm

Only in the FR and the only Gods & Goddesses that would know would be those with the Magic Domain and Ao, who would force the two to fight for dominance or merge together.


You make a good point, but since the Ice Assassin has a overpowering urge to destroy its "predecessor" I would think that may set off a ping...:smalleek:

Just order it to not do that.

[TuggyNE]

Spell Component Pouch. As it is worthless it is in there.

Priceless, worthless, it's all semantics! :smallyuk:

[AzazelSephiroth]

Priceless, worthless, it's all semantics! :smallyuk:

I worry my DM (being the amazingly lenient person that he is) will probably not accept Priceless=worthless lol:smallsmile:

Still since there is no price listed... could eschew materials cover it?

[Arcanist]

I worry my DM (being the amazingly lenient person that he is) will probably not accept Priceless=worthless lol:smallsmile:

Still since there is no price listed... could eschew materials cover it?

I'd accept Eschew Materials over a Spell Component Pouch to be honest, but since you need the god's hair as a Focus (if memory serves) it doesn't.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I worry my DM (being the amazingly lenient person that he is) will probably not accept Priceless=worthless lol:smallsmile:

Still since there is no price listed... could eschew materials cover it?

No. As tuggyne was saying in your quote there, priceless and worthless aren't the same thing. If a thing doesn't have a listed price that doesn't mean it's automatically worthless. In the case of a chunk of divinely infused flesh which could make anyone who knows ice assassin into a god, it's rather obvious that the lack of price is because it's of inestimably great value. It's simply worth too much to put a price on, meaning significantly more than the 1gp upper limit of eschew materials.

[Arcanist]

it's rather obvious that the lack of price is because it's of inestimably great value.

Next time I go to NPC stuff, I'm just gonna whip out my Bat Guano and Sulfur and say "Just gimme all your stuff and we'll call it even". :smalltongue:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Next time I go to NPC stuff, I'm just gonna whip out my Bat Guano and Sulfur and say "Just gimme all your stuff and we'll call it even". :smalltongue:

:confused: What?

[AzazelSephiroth]

I have to agree WHAT?:smallconfused:

Lols still it was worth a shot... Now how about this...
Fluff wise how would one go about acquiring a piece of god flesh?

[Arcanist]

:confused: What?

The Spell Fireball (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm) has a listed material component with no known value (just like our friend Ice Assassin!). The argument that you present suggest that Bat Guano and Sulfur, as they have no listed price, are Priceless or Worthless. To suggest that either is correct would be against RAW since there is nothing to back it up (beyond applying common human logic).

Now we turn to the Spell Component Pouch!


A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch.

Therefore, since God's Flesh does not have a specific cost and there is no listed amount of material required then you can perform this.

On another note: That means everyone has a bottle of Angel Tears in there back pocket and every other Good Aligned artifact! :smalltongue: (See Apocalypse From The Sky)

[Fyermind]

there is always dweomer keeper who ignores the need for your gods hair...

[AzazelSephiroth]

The Spell Fireball (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm) has a listed material component with no known value (just like our friend Ice Assassin!). The argument that you present suggest that Bat Guano and Sulfur, as they have no listed price, are Priceless or Worthless. To suggest that either is correct would be against RAW since there is nothing to back it up (beyond applying common human logic).

Now we turn to the Spell Component Pouch!



Therefore, since God's Flesh does not have a specific cost and there is no listed amount of material required then you can perform this.

On another note: That means everyone has a bottle of Angel Tears in there back pocket and every other Good Aligned artifact! :smalltongue: (See Apocalypse From The Sky)

Well I cannot argue that strict reading seems to allow it... thus I could just pull out my tiny piece of God`s Flesh and bam... still I think my DM may hit me with a book if I try to circumvent it like that :smallbiggrin:

[Gildedragon]

More importantly, if said NPC knows that is your last pinch of bat guano and sulphur, how much would they pay you for it?

[Flickerdart]

On another note: That means everyone has a bottle of Angel Tears in there back pocket and every other Good Aligned artifact! :smalltongue: (See Apocalypse From The Sky)
You can't actually use them for their intended purpose, though. Probably due to licensing constraints.

[Karnith]

On another note: That means everyone has a bottle of Angel Tears in there back pocket and every other Good Aligned artifact! :smalltongue: (See Apocalypse From The Sky)
Actually, Apocalypse from the Sky simply requires an artifact; it doesn't need to be a good-aligned one, though apparently it is "usually one of good perverted to this corrupt use." Meaning that you really need to be careful rooting around a spell component pouch, because you could have a Sphere of Annihilation in there.

Also interestingly, a spell component pouch (according to the SRD) does not contain focuses that are too big to fit in the pouch (and those that cost money). There is no equivalent language for material components, meaning that spell component pouches are also apparently capable of containing items of any size, so long as they are material components that aren't priced.

[Gildedragon]

Actually, Apocalypse from the Sky simply requires an artifact; it doesn't need to be a good-aligned one, though apparently it is "usually one of good perverted to this corrupt use." Meaning that you really need to be careful rooting around a spell component pouch, because you could have a Sphere of Annihilation in there.

Which naturally is how one solves those shenannigans. the moment they try to get god bits they hit a sphere. Oh sure you found it but oh look you lost your hand. Wanna try again? :smallamused:

[Arcanist]

Actually, Apocalypse from the Sky simply requires an artifact; it doesn't need to be a good-aligned one, though apparently it is "usually one of good perverted to this corrupt use." Meaning that you really need to be careful rooting around a spell component pouch, because you could have a Sphere of Annihilation in there.

This post pretty much sums up why that might or might not work.


You can't actually use them for their intended purpose, though. Probably due to licensing constraints.

[Flickerdart]

Actually, Apocalypse from the Sky simply requires an artifact; it doesn't need to be a good-aligned one, though apparently it is "usually one of good perverted to this corrupt use." Meaning that you really need to be careful rooting around a spell component pouch, because you could have a Sphere of Annihilation in there.
That's not even the best part. You don't just have a Sphere. You have n Spheres. As well as an assortment of Hands and Eyes of Vecna.

[ericgrau]

Don't forget you can draw them all in one turn as free actions.

[Arcanist]

Don't forget you can draw them all in one turn as free actions.

Yes, but you have to be 17th level (as a Wizard) to do this, it takes a whole day to cast, deals 3d6 Consitution damage, 3d6 of Wisdom drain and just for preparing it you take 1d3 wisdom damage.

[Alleran]

Yes, but you have to be 17th level (as a Wizard) to do this, it takes a whole day to cast, deals 3d6 Consitution damage, 3d6 of Wisdom drain and just for preparing it you take 1d3 wisdom damage.
On the upside, it's the quickest and easiest RAW way to get all the artifacts you could want, and doesn't require you to ask the DM nicely.

Clearly, a spell component pouch is one of the most RAW-silly items in the game.

[Y'gnol]

Wouldn't waiting for epic level and snapping up the Ignore Material Components Feat solve the issue of whether or not you have the god flesh for the spell?

[Clistenes]

There are a couple modules that end with you gaining a divine rank: The Sundered Spark, from Oerth Journal, allows you to gain Divine Rank 0; The Drow War Adventure Path of MPG allows you to gain a Divine Rank at the end.

If your DM allows you to craft some kind of item or spell that allows you to suck the essence of a slayed deity, there are a f*ton of modules that allow you to kill Aspects, Quasi-deities, Hero-gods and even Demigods.

[Sith_Happens]

Ice assassin seems to be a RAW way to do it except how in the world do I obtain a piece of the deity I wish to re-create?!

Scrolls come with the material component pre-expended. Wish for one.

[Psyren]

Just order it to not do that.

Unstoppable force vs. immovable object. If you can order someone to ignore an "all-consuming need" to do something, then it cannot truly be all-consuming and RAW is violated.

[Talakeal]

In 3.0 WoTC had a policy of not referencing other books outside of core. So while Draconomicon does not reference Deities and Demigods, I would say if you are using both books I would certainly count a dragon ascendant quasi god as having DR 0.

To the best of my knowledge there is no simple RAI way to get divine ranks as they are mostly a storyline thing, and even if you use RAW loopholes I believe Deities and Demigods gives the DM the right to just say no. Even if you have a DM who is lenient enough to say a spell component pouch contains a piece of every creature, I believe they are fully within their rights as per Deities and Demigods to not give the ice assassin divine ranks. Appendix 2 in D&DG has plenty of suggestions, but is very firm about keeping the ball in the DM's court.

That being said, work with your DM. Most of us want our PCs to have goals and will give them ways to achieve them. I am sure that if you express an interest in divine ascension your DM will provide a path, assuming he isn't a total control freak (which unfortunately many DM's are).

I had a PC who wanted to become a god, and I allowed them to do so, although it was part of a capstone quest at the end of the campaign. This, however, turned out to be a mistake, as years later I started the campaign again and allowed that character to return as a mortal, having given up her divine status to save all magic in the cosmos. Now the player constantly whines that as a former god she should still significantly more powerful and knowledgeable than any mere mortal simply because of time spent as a god.