[3.5] Help finish this Monk [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Siltharon

2013-01-24, 01:20 AM

So currently I'm thinking about reentering a campaign I left a while ago and I wanted to fullfill myself an old dream of mine. Playing an effective Monk.

Before we get started I give you some informations about the campaign:
currently Level 8

other members:
-Enchanter (got already dip into master spez./ don't know what prestige c. focus now)
-Druide (Planar Shepherd / I know ... but probably our worst player and since we all have a pretty good understanding on what we are allowed to do he won't/can't absolutely abuse it)
-Ninja (going for Assassin / why oh why did he want to play that ... well can't be helped now and as long as he is happy with it)

in most fights the Enchanter is doing the mainwork due to the druid playing at such low effectiveness (believe me if I say we haven't figured out why that is)

So back to the beggining .... Monk yeah. I don't quite know yet what kinda build I wanna play, but I'm pretty sure it's gonna be a ToB enhanced one or the Tashalatora one

The rules I set myself for the charakter: NO size increase for the base of the build (meaning if the situation gets really ****ty I might do it), NO natural attack cheese through Shapeshifting classes (I want the body of my monk unchanged)

So here I have some ideas featwise and buildwise:
I thought about a charger/pounce build working around Power Attack, Leap of Heavens (PHB2), Leap Attack (CAdv), Flying Kick (OA), Battle Jump (UE)
with Monk 20 medium sized and str 24 this build would deal 112 dmg per hit
-easy charging through LoH and BJ (jumpcheck has to be enormous but that's not quite a problem)
-add feats like Snap Kick and buff Haste etc. and go with 7+ attacks
-best with Psychic Warrior for Psionic lion's charge and bonusfeats

another option would be a disabling build: using Stunning Fist enhancers and Maneuvers + some feats from OA and RCS (ever took a look on Falling Star Strike? ... blinding awesomeness)

So here are just some thoughts on my part ... I'm not quite sure which build would be more effective (cc wise most likely the second but dmg wise most likely the first) in most given situations.

I'm open for any suggestions.

Gavinfoxx

2013-01-24, 01:31 AM

Flickerdart

2013-01-24, 01:35 AM

You should have damage covered pretty well with the ninja. Power attack isn't so great for monks, with their BAB and lack of two-handedness.

Go Azurin, Snap up Jotunbrud, the Decisive Strike ACF, a 1-level dip into Cloistered Cleric (for Travel Devotion, Competition Domain is a good pick for the other domain), Cobalt Expertise, Knock-down, Combat Reflexes, and do the Passive Way style. That leaves you one level to play around with - take anything, it doesn't really matter.

Pop Travel Devotion, run up to a guy, activate Decisive Strike. Punch him in the face for double damage. Knock-down activates, you trip him. Punch him in the face for double damage again. If he tries to stand up, you punch him in the face for double damage a third time. Your AC is boosted thanks to Combat + Cobalt Expertise, you stop guys from getting to your Enchanter and Druid while they cast their spells, the Ninja can run around killing people easier since everyone's tripped.

Siltharon

2013-01-24, 01:45 AM

You're a monk. In a game with a Planar Shepherd. Pull out the Theoretical Optimization. If you want a large number of Monk levels... you have to go pretty far: At least... Wild Monk (Dragon Magazine #324), Holy Strike (Complete Champion), Invisible Fist (Champions of Valor), Resistant Body (Planar Handbook), who picks up the 'X Wild Shape' (where X is a descriptor) feats from Draconomicon, Book of Exalted Deeds, and Frostburn. Make sure the DM lets you use your unarmed strikes at the end of your natural attacks. Focus on Wild Shape forms that get Pounce. Use a method of speaking while in Wild Shape, and of getting your gear to work while in Wild Shape as well (Wilding Clasps, or taking it off and putting it on after you shape). Also consider picking up Touch of Golden Ice from Book of Exalted Deeds.

Consider, for the psychic stuff:

Monk 2 with some ACFs (passive way?)/Ardent X with Tashalatora

I like Ardent, if you push the Op of it, more than Psychic Warrior.

Or Unarmed Swordsage.

Thanks for the suggestion but I already said I don't want to use wild shape or any shapeshifting cheese ... and no size increase
second: our druid is really, really bad ... meaning that even though he is level 8 he is useless in a lot of situations ... I'm by far the most experienced player (followed by the Enchanter who knows at least what he can do) -> So I want to go with a monk (who will be far from useless in this campaign)

You should have damage covered pretty well with the ninja. Power attack isn't so great for monks, with their BAB and lack of two-handedness.

Go Azurin, Snap up Jotunbrud, the Decisive Strike ACF, a 1-level dip into Cloistered Cleric (for Travel Devotion, Competition Domain is a good pick for the other domain), Cobalt Expertise, Knock-down, Combat Reflexes, and do the Passive Way style. That leaves you one level to play around with - take anything, it doesn't really matter.

Pop Travel Devotion, run up to a guy, activate Decisive Strike. Punch him in the face for double damage. Knock-down activates, you trip him. Punch him in the face for double damage again. If he tries to stand up, you punch him in the face for double damage a third time. Your AC is boosted thanks to Combat + Cobalt Expertise, you stop guys from getting to your Enchanter and Druid while they cast their spells, the Ninja can run around killing people easier since everyone's tripped.

With the build I posted above you would get 8xPA on a charge ... meaning -5 hit for +40 dmg which is definitely worth it
the ideas you have are pretty awesome though ... might be worth a look (haven't thought about decisive strike for some reason)

oh and our ninja is ranged ... (our dm gave him SA instead of SS making him at least somewhat better but since he is ranged ... you see where this is going) -> sometimes he goes into melee with a longsword

andromax

2013-01-24, 02:11 AM

Siltharon

2013-01-24, 02:13 AM

Well martial monk variant lets you pick up fighter bonus feats ignoring prerequisites. Melee Weapon Mastery, Spectral Skirmisher (add this with invisible fist variant) will go a long ways to making you more combat effective.. then prestige out.

haha thanks for the suggestion but I think we all know that's RAW and not RAI .... and I'm pretty sure my dm won't allow that

andromax

2013-01-24, 02:16 AM

We all know it's not RAI? It's a feeble attempt at fixing monks.. even if you spent all your monk bonus feats on attack improving fighter feats the fighter still has you beat with BAB alone. I believe it's perfectly RAI, and the only broken thing about it is the fact that it's written for a 3.5 monk to begin with.

andromax

2013-01-24, 02:22 AM

Killer Angel

2013-01-24, 04:14 AM

Help finish a monk? Coup de grace!
oh, wait... :smalltongue:

You're a monk. In a game with a Planar Shepherd.

There's also a ninja / assassin (?) unoptimized. I don't think the real problem in this group will be the monk.

Siltharon

2013-01-24, 04:50 AM

Even without martial monk you could still pick up invisible fist and spectral skirmisher which is a real nice combo.. toss in a level or 2 of sword sage for the invis maneuvers and ToB goodness and you're set.

thank you for the combo :) (problem is I don't have HoV ... I look if I can find the pdf somewhere)

There's also a ninja / assassin (?) unoptimized. I don't think the real problem in this group will be the monk.

yeah exactly ... I think I will be totally fine since our group puts more effort into roleplaying and fun than average groups. Also like I said before it's a good opportunity for me to play a mediocre build (but very stylish) since I know more about the game than the others (including the gm btw).

I tryed to talk the ninja into going some sort of prestigeclasses (ie the Sadowsun Ninja which could easily be attained through a 1 level Swordsage (with unarmed variant)) but most were to complicated for him. Like I said though as long as he isn't bored I'm fine but I think he will be at some point. Well then we have to find a solution as a group.
(I also suggested the gm allowing gestalting with another low tier class or buffing the Ninja (partially done by the SS to SA))

And also due to lots of (per Gentleman's Agreement) banned high level cheese I'd put the 2 t1 chars lower .... especially since our druid is freaking bad in his role (btw he has con 18 and still thinks wildshaping is a bad idea)

well .... more fun for the enchanter and me

andromax

2013-01-24, 06:26 AM

Oh yea, and if your char is evil, he can serve an Elder Evil and get a couple vile feats for free. Go with Willing Deformity (Tall) for reach or Willing Deformity (Teeth) for an extra bite attack.

Yea it's cheesy but you're a monk and you need it.

Siltharon

2013-01-24, 08:24 AM

Has anyone ever complained (or gotten complaints) about the Falling Star Strike from OA? I will definitely use it in my build but my Gm might start crying after a while

Juntao112

2013-01-24, 10:12 AM

Allow me to suggest a monk build. (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=60917)

Mato

2013-01-24, 11:55 AM

Waith
A single classed Wild Abomination Dragonborn Water Half-Orc Passive Way Monk.

Race
Wild(dragon #306 pg65): +2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha, +5 to Speed, +1 Skill Point per level, +2 Racial on Listen/Spot, -2 to Bluff/Diplo/Sense.
Proto-Creature(beastiary of krynn, pg89): +3 to Natural AC, +4 vs Mind-Affecting abilities, +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -4 Cha.
Dragonborn(rotd): Low-Light Vision, Breath Weapon, Draconic Language, Dragonblooded, +2 Con, -2 Dex.
Water(ua/srd): Gain a Swim Speed Equal to your Land Speed, Dragonborn removes the rest but doesn't change Speed.
Orc(core): +4 Str, -2 Int, -2 Wis. -2 Cha, Dragonborn removes the rest but doesn't change Racial Ability Modifiers.

ACFs
Passive Way(ua): 1st, bonus feat selection changes.
Holy Strike(cc): 4th, lose Ki Strike(magic) for Good-Aligned & +1d6 damage vs Evil.
Wall Walker(ds): 4th, lose Slow Fall for the ability to run on walls for the same distance.
Invisible Fist(eoe) : 2nd, lose Evasion for Immediate Action Invisibility that lasts one round. Depreciated since your starting above lv2.
Broken One(cov): 6th, lose bonus feat for Track, this sub has Survival as a class skill.
Dark Moon Disciple(cov web): 7th, lose Wholeness of Body for Total Concealment in conditions less than full daylight.
Take Later - Invisible Fist(eoe): 9th, lose Improved Evasion for Immediate Action Blink that lists (wis mod) rounds.

Feats
Flaw-Battle Jump(ue): Double damage while charging.
Flaw-Power Attack(srd): Swap attack bonuses for damage bonuses.
Bonus-Combat Expertise(srd): Swap attack bonuses for AC bonuses.
1st-Improved Bull Rush(): +4 to Bullrush.
Bonus-Improved Trip(srd): +4 to Trip, extra attack when successful.
3rd-Skill Focus(srd): Required for +4 more to Trip.
6th-Shock Trooper(): Swap attack penalties for AC penalties.
Bonus-Track(srd): Know what passed where and when.

[B]Skills
Take Balance to 5, dump all points in Survival at level 6, maximize Move Silently, put the rest into Sleight of Hand, Spot & Skill Tricks.

Items
+1 Valorous Necklace of Natural Weapons[8,900](ss): Double damage on a charge, also +1 to attack/damage.
+1 Vengeful Bracers of Armor[4,000](sos): +1 Moral to Saves, possible +2 Moral to attack/damage.
Sandals of the Tiger's Leap[3,500](s&f): Double damage on a charge.
Custom Legacy Fast Leg[4,000+legacy 4-3](ff/wol): +10 to Speed. DC 15 Will save or be compelled to commit an evil act. Legacy Abilities; 6th: Granted Maneuver-Shadow Blade Technique(roll 2d20 to attack, possible +1d6 dmg), 7th: Granted Maneuver-Assassin's Stance(+2d6 sneak attack). 8th: Telekinetic(at-will mage hand, mending, open/close).
8th level WBL 27,000 - 20,400 spent = 6,600 remaining for tools.

Role
You are a silent guardian to the party. Often running on tree limbs or roof tops dispatching foes before they ever have a chance to ambush the rest of the party as nothing less than effects like Blindsight, Touchsight and Mindsight can see you on a cloudy day. When you know who needs to die you are capable of tracking your target down, infiltrating his base, and leaping upon him to deal quadruple damage. You also help control the flow of battle with up to a +12 bonus to Trip on top of abnormally high Strength score to prevent your opponents from Full-Attacking. In addition the full-concealment allows you to easily apply Sneak Attack damage and mitigates Furry of Blow's attack penalties on top of preventing you from ever being affected by a target based spell (such as wrack) and granting you a 50% chance to negate any effect that uses an attack roll.

You also double up as a very accomplished thief. Capable of stealing precious materials and weapons off your target before they know you are there and with your legacy granted spell-like-abilities and maneuverability you can steal from shops and banks through a window while perched outside on a flag pole.

Your key weaknesses are the inability to hit on whores (being hidden and all), social encounters, and trap makers that realized pressure plates and stretched strings are unreliable trigger methods.

Next level you also gain the ability to walk through walls. This both skips door based traps and the need to find staircases.

Telonius

2013-01-24, 12:08 PM

Okay, so the Druid player is focusing on leading a horde but doesn't know what he's doing ... are you guys okay for buffs? Healing? Status removal? Because it sounds to me like you might have a hole in that department. Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist could fill it.

Prime32

2013-01-24, 12:30 PM

Look up the Mantis Leap feat in Sword & Fist. It lets an lv7+ monk charge as a move action.

Larkas

2013-01-24, 12:52 PM

Hmmm... Something that did help a lot a newbie monk in my group was getting Weapon Finesse, Martial Study (that stance that gives concealment on a charge), Shadow Blade and Lion Tribe Warrior (fists are light weapons, after all). Max Dex, dump everything else (eh, DON'T dump Con :smalleek: ). You'll get good AC, lots of damage on a charge and concealment every time you charge (which should be always). Also, keep shuriken around for ranged goodness. Ah, and get that ACF that gives you the ability to walk up walls and a Ring of Feather Fall and you're set. If you want, I have that character sheet back at my home PC and can salvage it to give you some ideas! I'm sure I must be missing some details. (I made the character for the newbie, but it's been some time now :smallbiggrin: )

Oh, and guys, the OP said this:

The rules I set myself for the charakter: NO size increase for the base of the build (meaning if the situation gets really ****ty I might do it), NO natural attack cheese through Shapeshifting classes (I want the body of my monk unchanged)

EDIT: Forgot to say that the player wanted to be a full monk, so no multiclassing for him. If you're not averse to dipping Swordsage, that build can be achieved much more easily.

Flickerdart

2013-01-24, 03:33 PM

With the build I posted above you would get 8xPA on a charge ... meaning -5 hit for +40 dmg which is definitely worth it
No, you don't. Battle Jump gives you double damage. Flying Kick only gives you +1d12. Leap Attack gives you +100% to your Power Attack bonus (which at 20th is max 15). Even if you apply these in the most favourable order, and dump your entire BAB into PA, you get (2d10+30+STR)*2 + 1d12 (since bonus dice don't multiply). Assuming STR 24 like you mention, that averages out to 102 damage, except you can't actually hit anything with that -15 to-hit penalty. On a -5 penalty like you describe (and still can't hit anything with because of the low BAB) you will deal an average of 52 damage, and you don't even have Pounce. The damage gets better if you're using a two-handed weapon, but then why are you a Monk in the first place?

Karnith

2013-01-24, 04:03 PM

The rules I set myself for the charakter: NO size increase for the base of the build (meaning if the situation gets really ****ty I might do it), NO natural attack cheese through Shapeshifting classes (I want the body of my monk unchanged)

So here I have some ideas featwise and buildwise:
I thought about a charger/pounce build working around Power Attack, Leap of Heavens (PHB2), Leap Attack (CAdv), Flying Kick (OA), Battle Jump (UE)
with Monk 20 medium sized and str 24 this build would deal 112 dmg per hit
-easy charging through LoH and BJ (jumpcheck has to be enormous but that's not quite a problem)
-add feats like Snap Kick and buff Haste etc. and go with 7+ attacks
-best with Psychic Warrior for Psionic lion's charge and bonusfeats
Someone already brought this up (though it was just a link to the build), but if you want to be an unarmed, charge/pounce-based character and aren't absolutely wedded to the monk class, you may want to consider building a punch-barian. The Barbarian chassis is much better suited to actually fighting, with more hit points and a better BAB (which, if you're going to be using Power Attack, you'll want and want badly). The alternate class features you'd want would be Whirling Frenzy (on the SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy )), which emulates a flurry of blows but is basically better, Spirit Lion Totem (from Complete Champion, page 46), which trades fast movement for supernatural pounce, and City Brawler (from Dragon magazine 349, page 92), which trades your proficiency with martial weapons, medium armor, and shields for Improved Unarmed Strike and Two-Weapon Fighting when fighting unarmed (which improves to Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at barbarian level 6 and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting at level 11).

Gavinfoxx

2013-01-24, 05:26 PM

Here are the major 'replacements' for monk:

1.) Unarmed Swordsage, from Tome of Battle. This is the most obvious Monk 2.0. Go take a look at it; the Unarmed bit is an Adaptation of the monk, and it does everything the monk wanted to do.

2.) Tashalatora Psychic Warrior. What you do with this is take a level or 2 of Monk, the Tashalatora feat from Secrets of Sarlona, and go into Psychic Warrior from Expanded Psionics Handbook or the System Resource Document and never look back. Instead of Psychic Warrior, Ardent (from Complete Psionics) can work well, too.

3.) (Whirling Frenzy [System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana] or Ferocity [Cityscape Web Enhancement]) Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion), Wolf Totem (System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana) Barbarian. Like that barbarian build I linked to, those are the core changes and acf's of the barbarian class to make it more monk-like. Take Skilled City Dweller-ride for tumble (Cityscape Web Enhancement) and City Brawler (Dragon Magazine #349). Streetfighter (Cityscape Web Enhancement) isn't necessary, but it can help. I would suggest Whirling Frenzy over Ferocity. Just get Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle), a Monk's Belt (DMG or SRD, if your wisdom is high), some light armor (if your wisdom isn't high), a Monk's Tattoo (Magic of Faerun I think), a Necklace of Natural attacks (Savage Species), and/or a Fanged Ring (Dragon Compendium Volume 1). In fact, any of these builds could maybe use those items!

4.) Monk 2/Mystic or Sacred Fist. This monk build uses a divine class, and the 'text over table' rule to get full casting for the Sacred Fist prestige class in complete divine. It works okay with Cleric, great with the Mystic class from Dragonlance Campaign Setting (choose a strong melee domain or devotion [complete champion!]), and pretty good with Favored Soul from Complete Divine. Don't take more than 2 levels of Monk. Focus on long-duration self-buffs.

5.) Monk with a huuuuge variety of alternative class features. Namely: Wild Monk (Dragon Magazine #324), Holy Strike (Complete Champion), Invisible Fist (Champions of Valor), Resistant Body (Planar Handbook), who picks up the 'X Wild Shape' (where X is a descriptor) feats from Draconomicon, Book of Exalted Deeds, and Frostburn. Make sure the DM lets you use your unarmed strikes at the end of your natural attacks. Focus on Wild Shape forms that get Pounce. Only works as 'powerful' once you get Wild Shape, and if you use a method of speaking while in Wild Shape, and of getting your gear to work while in Wild Shape as well (Wilding Clasps, or taking it off and putting it on after you shape).

Mato

2013-01-24, 07:13 PM

Here are the major 'replacements' for monk:
1.) Unarmed Swordsage, from Tome of Battle.
2.) Tashalatora Psychic Warrior.
3.) Be a AFC'ed Barbarian!
4.) Monk 2/Mystic or Sacred Fist.
5.) Monk with a huuuuge variety of alternative class features. Namely: Wild Monk (Dragon Magazine #324), ...
1. Indeed.

2. Loses the aspect of mundane for half-caster, and it's Psionic. I'm not sure on the OP, but manifesting magic and buying the ability to punch stuff seems pretty far off in left field.

3. I find it interesting you suggest Barbarian front loaded with a dozen ACFs, and then suggest blowing more than half your WBL on items a level 8er can't afford in order to be an even less effective monk than Monk. >.>

4. Same as #2. I mean, I'm sort of with you on the 2 & 4 part, but the ability to cast spells is often the last thing desired in a mundane build creating a break point.

5. Wild Monk is a big disapointment to me, have you found any Wild Feat to salvage it yet? Eer I mean, the OP's said no shapechanging effects. Also in this list of ACFs you committed a giant mistake. The real 'crime' is the lack of Dark Moon Disciple. The only reason to ever advance past the 2nd level of Monk is this ACF and you skipped it. :(

Do we need a PSA on Dark Moon Disciple?

What is it?
Dark Moon Disciple is an ACF detailed in Champions of Virtue's Web Enhancement, Click Me (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a). There are no real requirements other than you're expected to worship Shar, a trait often waved as fluff. Through, Shar is the deity of secrets whose clergy prefers subversive tactics rather than direct confrontation so it's a pretty easily met requirement because that is the exact type of tactics you'd be employing.

Why take it?

Shadow Blend (Su): In any conditions other than full daylight, a 7th-level Dark Moon Disciple can disappear into the shadows, gaining total concealment. Artificial light does not negate this ability, though a daylight spell does.
This benefit replaces the wholeness of body class feature that the standard monk gains at 7th level.
I'm not a fan of opening text, but less than full day light means cloudy works. See next quote. Torches, Continual Flames, even standing inside a bonfire won't end this effect.

What does it mean?

Total Concealment
If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).

You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.Immunity to AoOs, not a valid direct target means no target based spells, if someone did know where you were you still have a 50% chance to ignore it no matter their attack bonus and your AC, not to mention your opponent is denied his Dex-to-AC and further has a -2 penalty to AC from your attacks. Not only making it easier to hit him, but this sets up abilities like Sneak Attack and certain Shadow Hand maneuvers.

This is not Hide in Plain Sight, you are covered in shadows and you gain Total-Concealment. No Hide check needed, Darkvision cannot penetrate this supernatural (sic magical) darkness. Even better, See Invisible and True Sight bestow no ability to see through effects that cloud your vision such as Darkness. Unless they are flat out capable of detecting you without sight (example blind/touch/mind-sight, guess how common the last two are) they cannot bypass this ability without anything in short of a sunny day or dropping Daylight on you.
Yeah, it's pretty OP. And you know the kicker part? It's not that this ability is worded poorly. It suffers from copypasta (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadowMastiff.htm).

Gavinfoxx

2013-01-24, 07:15 PM

3: Be a much more effective brawler than a monk, you mean? Seriously... the fist-barian is WAY better at brawling than a Monk... and those items aren't just for level 8 characters, that is the stuff that you should look into for improving fisticuffs in general...

Phelix-Mu

2013-01-24, 07:23 PM

Even better, See Invisible and True Sight bestow no ability to see through effects that cloud your vision such as Darkness

Hmm, from True Seeing...

The subject sees through normal and magical darkness,

So, maybe I'm missing something. Granted, the rules interp for DmD is left a little wide open, and I'm not a super expert on what true seeing actually allows. It seems to me that a reading of true seeing leads to the conclusion that lighting conditions don't impact sight within 120'. Not clear here, and lighting conditions in D&D have always been a little confusing.

Karnith

2013-01-24, 08:06 PM

3. I find it interesting you suggest Barbarian front loaded with a dozen ACFs, and then suggest blowing more than half your WBL on items a level 8er can't afford in order to be an even less effective monk than Monk. >.>
I'm fairly certain that a punchbarian is more effective at unarmed combat than a monk. Compared to a regular monk, a punchbarian using the variant features that gavinfoxx mentioned has more hit points, a better base attack bonus, as many unarmed attacks per round at 8th level (a barbarian has the same number of normal non-flurry iteratives, plus one from Two-Weapon Fighting, plus one from Improved Two-Weapon Fighting) with a higher attack bonus, can have more attacks in a whirling frenzy (and/or if you take Snap Kick at 6, which you can get earlier than a monk could thanks to your improved BAB), will deal more damage in a whirling frenzy than a monk with the same stats, can wear light armor, and is less MAD. The punchbarian's unarmed attacks deal slightly less base damage than a monk's (which is made up by being less MAD and the Strength boost from whirling frenzy), and he also has a slower movement speed.

Noctani

2013-01-24, 08:33 PM

Level 1 Monk Stunning Fist, Unarmed Strike, Alertness, Combat Expertise
Level 2 Monk Combat Reflexes
Level 3 Fighter Intuitive Attack (BoED I think) Combat Casting
Level 4 Fighter Iron Will
Level 5 Druid
Level 6 Sacred Fist
Level 7 Sacred Fist
Level 8 Shiba Protector

Monk Belt 13k
+5 Greater Magic Fang permanent 6k
Leaves you with 9k left.
And a feat at lvl 6

If you have a +5 Wisdom modifier that will put your attack at a
+5 BAB/+5Fang/+5No thought/+5Intuitive for attack and +10 DMG
And thats not counting your strength modifier for DMG.

I know at first this might seem very weak, but it's power only grows expotentially from here. Once you are able to keep up owl's insight and increase your wisdom, it increases your spell DC/No thought/intuitive attack/Armor.

No thought will modify your lvl 2 splinterbolt. No Save, No SR
Role play it as a mystic attack. Taking a 1 lvl dip in kensai can be nice to augment your elbows,knees, fists, and feet with spell storing. Using splinterbolt as a free action on a hit and keeping one weapon greater magic fanged. Sandform is also very useful in both sneaking, attacking from the ground, and a psudopod that counts a two-handed weapon. Then you could actually effectively power attack.

animewatcha

2013-01-24, 09:56 PM

Kuulvheysoon

2013-01-25, 12:37 AM

Unfortunately, unlike what mato says, there are other pre-reqs in for the dark moon thing. Even within the fluff itself. Basically, one would need to be either LN ( with evil lean ) or LE for it amongst other things. If you want something like saint template or exalted feats, dark moon is a no.

See, that's what surprised me as well.

Shar... isn't what you'd exactly call Valorous or Heroic, so I was surprised to see it in there (instead of, say, Champions of Ruin).

Siltharon

2013-01-25, 10:52 AM

No, you don't. Battle Jump gives you double damage. Flying Kick only gives you +1d12. Leap Attack gives you +100% to your Power Attack bonus (which at 20th is max 15). Even if you apply these in the most favourable order, and dump your entire BAB into PA, you get (2d10+30+STR)*2 + 1d12 (since bonus dice don't multiply). Assuming STR 24 like you mention, that averages out to 102 damage, except you can't actually hit anything with that -15 to-hit penalty. On a -5 penalty like you describe (and still can't hit anything with because of the low BAB) you will deal an average of 52 damage, and you don't even have Pounce. The damage gets better if you're using a two-handed weapon, but then why are you a Monk in the first place?

mostly right (I actually miscalculated a bit) except for Flying Kick (x2 dmg multiplier on charge with unarmed attack) -> add 2 items and you have (assuming impr. nat. attack and str 24): (4W8+7+PAx2)x5 (Battle Jump, Flying Kick, +1 Valorous Necklace of Natural Weapons, Sandals of Tiger's Leap) -> effectively giving me 10x the malus I take on Hitting and that might very well be worth it

Currently I'm thinking about a typical Tashalatora build with the above mentioned featchain + adding some cc in

1 Monk 1 PA, Stunning Fis
2 Monk monastic Training (Psywar)
3 Psywar Leap of Heavens, Battle Jump
4 Psywar Flying Kick
5 Psywar
6 Psywar Tashalatora
7 Psywar Falling Star Strike
8 Psywar
-----
9+ (feats like Leap Attack (due to low hit delayed), Snap Kick, Impr. nat. attack and other monkfeats)

Giving me a quite solid dmg output + cc (permanent blinded enemies? yes pls) (might even add tripping later)
+ lots of style and fun (good reasons to play a monk in the first place)

Btw some more infos.: we play with rolling dices for stats (left me at 17 14 13 12 12 11) ... thought about going smth like (without adj.) Str 14 (13+1) Dex 12 Con 14 In 12 We 18 (17+1) Ch 10 (am not sure about the race though)
one major point is to reach a jumpbonus of at least 29 at level 8 (for at least 50% chance): 11 ranks + 2 (str) + 5 (ring o. j.) + 2 (Tumble) ... maybe adding a race with higher base speed? racial bonus? (raptoran would be an option or dragonborn) ... Problem is I'd like to avoid a race with wings for stylepurposes

and @ Noctani and @ Mato .... thanks for the great builds (might give them a shot ... since it is not yet decided if it's gonna be the above mentioned build)

Flickerdart

2013-01-25, 11:34 AM

I'm not sure which Flying Kick you're looking at, but Complete Warrior says +1d12.

Larkas

2013-01-25, 11:44 AM

I'm not sure which Flying Kick you're looking at, but Complete Warrior says +1d12.

Probably the one in Oriental Adventures:

Benefit: When fighting unarmed and using the charge action, you deal double damage with your unarmed attack.

Flickerdart

2013-01-25, 11:52 AM

CWar is the later publication (and also 3.5), and thus supersedes OA (which is 3.0).

Larkas

2013-01-25, 12:11 PM

CWar is the later publication (and also 3.5), and thus supersedes OA (which is 3.0).

I know, I know, I was just pointing out which version he was using. :smallsmile:

Anyways, at this point in the D&D3 system's life, you might as well use whichever version you and your DM like best. :smallwink:

Mato

2013-01-25, 02:25 PM

So, maybe I'm missing something.Oh no, I kind of explained it wrong. True Sight has an annoying nickpick and I went the wrong way with it since I didn't double check TS before posting.

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like.At first look it contradicts it's self. RAW you can see into Magical Darkness however it does not negate the Concealment granted by it so how does it work out?

Well Darkness doesn't grant Concealment per see, it hides you by stopping light, and hidden creatures gain concealment. If you can see through magical darkness than obviously no concealment is obtained. And therein is the nitpick. DND is Supernaturally hiding you in darkness, the darkness it's self isn't magical only the effect is. By RAW the effect grants you Total-Concealment, something TS doesn't resolve. By flavor it's a magical effect that TS can see through except it's using mundane shadows which TS can't. So it's a lot easier to say TS isn't good enough than it is.

***

Unfortunately, unlike what mato says, there are other pre-reqs in for the dark moon thing. Even within the fluff itself. Basically, one would need to be either LN ( with evil lean ) or LE for it amongst other things. If you want something like saint template or exalted feats, dark moon is a no.You don't have to be of the same alignment as your deity. Your LN/LE comes from the requirements to be a priest spreading the word of God. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm) That being said, Holy Strike can be taken by any Alignment. Any none-evil with is smites evil whilst the evil-aligned smite good. So mechanically your only requirement is being Lawful.

However yeah, certainly Exalted is out of the picture. And not because you belong to a traditionally evil sect. But more of BoED is a terrible terrible terrible book that condemns any play style that would ever use the Hide skill and would permanently ban you from the Exalted side if your sneeze passed someone a cold.

***

See, that's what surprised me as well.

Shar... isn't what you'd exactly call Valorous or Heroic, so I was surprised to see it in there (instead of, say, Champions of Ruin).I know, it threw me for a loop as well. However, Shar her self is one big gray area. She isn't some deity of murder and torture or disease and evisceration. Shar is first and foremost the deity of secrets with a shtick of painful past experiences. Even notes revenge for past slights, IE reaction not action. Like if the Noir genera were to have a deity, she'd be it. And you'd be the gruff ex-cop turned PI. A heroic role certainly, just not the 'exalted' kind.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-01-25, 07:38 PM

I know, it threw me for a loop as well. However, Shar her self is one big gray area. She isn't some deity of murder and torture or disease and evisceration. Shar is first and foremost the deity of secrets with a shtick of painful past experiences. Even notes revenge for past slights, IE reaction not action. Like if the Noir genera were to have a deity, she'd be it. And you'd be the gruff ex-cop turned PI. A heroic role certainly, just not the 'exalted' kind.

Aren't her 'primary' spheres of influence Darkness and Loss (as well as Secrets)?

You know, the Lady of Loss and all that?

animewatcha

2013-01-25, 10:29 PM

You don't have to be of the same alignment as your deity. Your LN/LE comes from the requirements to be a priest spreading the word of God. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm) That being said, Holy Strike can be taken by any Alignment. Any none-evil with is smites evil whilst the evil-aligned smite good. So mechanically your only requirement is being Lawful.

I'm sorry, but you need to read up on the Dark Moon Brotherhood. They are different from the clerics of Shar. Clerics are pretty much the face/politics of the will of Shar ( or heck politicians in government ). Dark moon Brotherhood are the 'green berets/navy seals' i.e. rogues of her will. Clerics and monks of Shar have different agendas/etc. and generally work seperately in own ways, but common goal is 'glory of Shar.' What I am getting at as 'amongst other things' is things like the 14 months of training and sterf. Within the fluff, they 'make sure' you understand evil and it's doings and stuff. They don't pick up anyone out of the streets via newborn. They wait until one can clearly have the know-how of moral choices. Within the fluff ( section on talking about brotherhood ), there is mainly that you need to show some arcane talent or something like it ( they generally multiclass with sorceror ) or you get booted from the order. They don't say 'how exactly on the exact qualifications' to meet it, so taking Arcane Schooling should cover it or heck some cross class ranks in UMD. There is even a bonus on attack roll and ac if 2 or more Dark Moon monks fight side-by-side ( literally ) in combat .

tl'dr LG monk ain't gettin' in. LN with good tendencies ain't gettin' in.

Dark Moon Heresy ( different section ) is a slightly different animal even if it gets only a small section.

Mato

2013-01-25, 10:41 PM

Aren't her 'primary' spheres of influence Darkness and Loss (as well as Secrets)?

You know, the Lady of Loss and all that?Sort of. I mean, her summaries peg her as the deity of a bunch of stuff, including loss and secrets.

Her actual dominion, per Faiths and Pantheons pg58 says she started with Darkness and Destruction. After battling Selune she gained dominion over pain hidden but not forgotten (ie regret). The rest of her entry is dedicated to secrets. Heck, it comes up in the second paragraph, "the Lady of Loss greatly favors secrets" and by the 3rd paragraph all of her clergymen love secrets.

Then you get into her dogma which boils down to three points; kill her rival (Selune), be humble, and keep secrets. Every God wants you to murder their rival so that is about as unique as a white refrigerator, humble is actually something you'd find on the Good side, the third, well that's pretty obvious...

I mean there is no getting around the fact she is a murderous assassin, but that's exactly what you'd inevitably become with semipermanent Total-Concelament so you'd fall into the same role just by virtue of wanting to use this ACF. Flavor wise, you can pass off as a devoted follower that's a CG noir PI.

animewatcha

2013-01-25, 11:34 PM

forgotten realms campaign setting going into a little more things and again not much on the humble side ( unless Pro-Shar ). Also the above is mainly for the clergy aka clerics. Monks being different. Lords of Darkness goes into further explanation about dark moon brotherhood, even to the distinction that clergy and brotherhood are very much seperate.

Heck, Champions of Ruin has it they are pretty much LE. So if you are LN, then better have evil enough tendencies or potential.

Siltharon

2013-01-26, 04:54 AM

CWar is the later publication (and also 3.5), and thus supersedes OA (which is 3.0).

damn you're right about that ... haven't realized they have that feat in CW

... well probably I could argue that they are 2 different feats which just happen to have the same name (since Flying Kick hasn't been updated in Dragon Magazine) .... Might be slightly cheesy but since it is a monk I probably can convince my Gm
.... even without that I had a x4 multiplier with double PA leading to 8 dmg for -1 hitting

Juntao112

2013-01-26, 05:00 AM

3. I find it interesting you suggest Barbarian front loaded with a dozen ACFs, and then suggest blowing more than half your WBL on items a level 8er can't afford in order to be an even less effective monk than Monk. >.>
You no doubt saw my barbarian martial artist, so let me just say that if you doubt my kung-fu, we can have a sparring match to settle our differences. :)

andromax

2013-01-26, 05:02 AM

damn you're right about that ... haven't realized they have that feat in CW

... well probably I could argue that they are 2 different feats which just happen to have the same name (since Flying Kick hasn't been updated in Dragon Magazine) .... Might be slightly cheesy but since it is a monk I probably can convince my Gm
.... even without that I had a x4 multiplier with double PA leading to 8 dmg for -1 hitting

As a long shot, a seldom known feat exists in the Oriental Adventures errata which is fairly obscure and unique, as well as functional. It's called Great Throw (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20060413a) and it's useful to monks who trip. Essentially a fair bit of crowd control. Definitely worth it if you have the prereqs and reach(which you should strive for as a melee'r of EL10).

Mato

2013-01-26, 10:35 AM

Lords of Darkness goes into further explanation about dark moon brotherhood, even to the distinction that clergy and brotherhood are very much seperate.Guess I need to do some further reading then.

You no doubt saw my barbarian martial artist, so let me just say that if you doubt my kung-fu, we can have a sparring match to settle our differences. :)Builds duking it out only shows who was more willing to add zeros to their numbers :p

But, You've got me interested now. Show me your big piece of man flesh please.

Talionis

2013-01-26, 11:17 AM

I know Monks are MAD enough, but UMD can really help them keep up with the Jones. Spellings like Mighty Wallup and Greater Mighty Wallup, and Divine Power are very important to keeping a Monk at the top of the game. Monks probably should have been full BAB so as not to need Divine Power, but having the spell available is nice. Mighty Wallup is a great boost to your damage with actually increasing size. There are other ways to increase size without actually increasing size, Stance from Tome of Battle and one of the Soulmelds bound to your Shoulder chakra.

Cloistered Cleric can be nice allowing for Travel Devotion and Turn Attempts to fuel it.

I also like Ordained Champion because it will eventually allow you to spontaneously cast Divine Power as a Swift or Move Action (unsure which).

I've made some interesting Charisma focused Monks that use Turn Attempts, UMD, to make them more relevant. Combat Panache feat. But you need to focus on quickly getting yourself Access to Divine Power.

I understand that people want Monks to be mundane, but when they live in a magical world as the level increases, they won't increase as exponentially and will feel left behind unless you use some magic either from dips and prestige classes or from magical items.

These are optimization boards and most of us love Monks, but we also make fun of them because the designers sure didn't love Monks. They get shafted in so many different ways that they really do need help.

So you may need to face the fact that something will have to give, either you are going to be one of the weaker party members or you will have to concede and go Barbarian, or heavy dip Tome of Battle, or dip some Magic either with items or class and prestige class.

Legonite

2013-01-28, 12:47 AM

I've built mine off of Juriku's remix for it. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122
So far at level 15 im doing 625 points of damage, ignoring dr, and i can hit just about any AC up to epic level. My spell resistence makes me immune to just about all magic, and can be toggled with the remix. They are pretty dependent of magic items of course, so Anti-magic feilds are a pain, but i can still kill the caster inside of it to cancel it.

Juntao112

2013-01-28, 01:55 AM

I know Monks are MAD enough, but UMD can really help them keep up with the Jones.
http://1d4chan.org/images/2/25/Choose_your_next_words_carefully.png
Choose your next words with exceptional care!

(I am given to understand that Monks with UMD is a somewhat contentious subject.)

Pickford

2013-01-28, 03:40 AM

I'm fairly certain that a punchbarian is more effective at unarmed combat than a monk. Compared to a regular monk, a punchbarian using the variant features that gavinfoxx mentioned has more hit points, a better base attack bonus, as many unarmed attacks per round at 8th level (a barbarian has the same number of normal non-flurry iteratives, plus one from Two-Weapon Fighting, plus one from Improved Two-Weapon Fighting) with a higher attack bonus, can have more attacks in a whirling frenzy (and/or if you take Snap Kick at 6, which you can get earlier than a monk could thanks to your improved BAB), will deal more damage in a whirling frenzy than a monk with the same stats, can wear light armor, and is less MAD. The punchbarian's unarmed attacks deal slightly less base damage than a monk's (which is made up by being less MAD and the Strength boost from whirling frenzy), and he also has a slower movement speed.

"Can a monk fight with two weapons? Can she combine
a two-weapon attack with a flurry of blows? What are her
penalties on attack rolls?
A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other
character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her
attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand
weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with
a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but
remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special
monk weapons as part of the flurry). The penalties for twoweapon
fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows.
For example, at 6th level, the monk Ember can normally
make one attack per round at a +4 bonus. When using flurry of
blows, she can make two attacks (using unarmed strikes or any
special monk weapons she holds), each at a +3 bonus. If she
wants to make an extra attack with her off hand, she has to
accept a –4 penalty on her primary hand attacks and a –8
penalty on her off-hand attacks (assuming she wields a light
weapon in her off hand).
If Ember has Two-Weapon Fighting, she has to accept only
a –2 penalty on all attacks to make an extra attack with her off
hand. Thus, when wielding a light weapon in her off hand
during a flurry of blows, she can make a total of three attacks,
each at a total bonus of +1. At least one of these attacks has to
be with her off-hand weapon.
A 20th-level monk with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting can
make eight attacks per round during a flurry of blows.
Assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand, her three
off-hand weapon attacks are at +13/+8/+3, and she has five
attacks (at +13/+13/+13/+8/+3) with unarmed strikes or any
weapons she carries in her primary hand. If the same monk also
has Rapid Shot and throws at least one shuriken as part of her
flurry of blows (since Rapid Shot can be used only with ranged
attacks), she can throw one additional shuriken with her
primary hand, but all of her attacks (even melee attacks) suffer
a –2 penalty. Thus, her full attack array looks like this:
+11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+1 primary hand (two must be with
shuriken) and +11/+6/+1 off hand."

I dunno, 9 attacks seems like a pretty good deal to me.

Gavinfoxx

2013-01-28, 04:10 AM

Flurry of whiffs or flurry of misses come to mind... you really don't want to tank your to hit in this game, especially just to deal low damage, non DR penetrating attacks...

Karnith

2013-01-28, 09:06 AM

I dunno, 9 attacks seems like a pretty good deal to me.
9 attacks with a highest attack bonus of +13 at 20th level seems pretty terrible to me, actually. Also, a 20th level punchbarian gets pounce, which is pretty essential, while a monk doesn't, and while in a Whirling Frenzy can get 8 unarmed attacks, with attack bonuses of +18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3, which is way better for actually hitting things than the monk's flurry of misses. Plus, because of the City Brawler ACF, the punchbarian gets access to the TWF stuff earlier than a monk and doesn't need to spend feats on the TWF chain like a monk would, so he can afford to take other feats like Snap Kick (which he gets earlier, and which would put him at 9 attacks at +16/+16/+16/+16/+11/+11/+8/+8/+3 in a whirling frenzy), Superior Unarmed Strike (again, he can get it earlier), and other good stuff.

Pickford

2013-01-28, 11:31 AM

only1doug

2013-01-28, 11:46 AM

Karnith

2013-01-28, 12:06 PM

And does 1d3 damage. Grats you do 1/2 of what a 1st level monk does. A co-equal Monk will always do more damage. (the rage early on grants, at best, +2 damage...and then you're raging.)
The punchbarian, thanks to not needing to spend feats on, or even needing to qualify for, Two-Weapon Fighting to get all those attacks (unlike the monk, who does), can take Superior Unarmed Strike at 3rd level (or any time after that, if he so chooses), which will let him have base unarmed damage of 2d6 at 20th level, while a 20th level monk with the same feat (which does nothing at that level, because monk unarmed strike progression doesn't continue past 20th level, but is pretty good if you aren't at 20th level) will have base unarmed damage of 2d10, meaning that the monk will deal, on average, 4 more damage than the barbarian with base damage. At 20th level, Whirling Frenzy grants a +8 strength bonus, meaning that they will deal equal damage on average with on-hand attacks, and slightly less with off-hand attacks. This is not counting that the Barbarian is less MAD and will be able to focus on having more Strength than a Monk, and that he will hit a lot more often with his attacks.

Also, when calculating the punchbarian's attack routine, I forgot that Whirling Frenzy, in addition to giving a -2 penalty to attacks in the round, has a Strength bonus that scales (it's +4 initially, +6 at 11th level, and +8 at 20th), so the 20th-level punchbarian's attack routine actually starts at +20/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5. So, the punchbarian's second iterative attacks while Two-Weapon Fighting are as likely to hit as a monk's primary attacks while flurrying (and not Two-Weapon Fighting), at 20th-level.

Again, punchbarians are better than standard monks at unarmed combat.

EDIT: The links may be a problem, so they're gone now.

Vaz

2013-01-28, 12:49 PM

Why would you ever choose Flurry over Decisive Strike?

Pickford

2013-01-28, 01:04 PM

The punchbarian, thanks to not needing to spend feats on Two-Weapon Fighting to get all those attacks(unlike the monk, who does) can take Superior Unarmed Strike at 3rd level (or any time after that, if he so chooses), which will let him have base unarmed damage of 2d6 at 20th level, while a 20th level monk with the same feat (which does nothing at that level, because monk unarmed strike progression doesn't continue past 20th level, but is pretty good if you aren't at 20th level) will have base unarmed damage of 2d10, meaning that the monk will deal, on average, 4 more damage than the barbarian with base damage. At 20th level, Whirling Frenzy grants a +8 strength bonus, meaning that they will deal equal damage on average with on-hand attacks, and slightly less with off-hand attacks. This is not counting that the Barbarian is less MAD and will be able to focus on having more Strength than a Monk, and that he will hit a lot more often with his attacks.

Also, when calculating the punchbarian's attack routine, I forgot that Whirling Frenzy, in addition to giving a -2 penalty to attacks in the round, has a Strength bonus that scales (it's +4 initially, +6 at 11th level, and +8 at 20th), so the 20th-level punchbarian's attack routine actually starts at +20/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5. So, the punchbarian's second iterative attacks while Two-Weapon Fighting are as likely to hit as a monk's primary attacks while flurrying (and not Two-Weapon Fighting), at 20th-level.

Again, punchbarians are better than standard monks at unarmed combat.

EDIT: It occurred to me that you may not have access to the Tome of Battle, which is where feats like Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick are. links removed.

Sorry, how is the Punchbarian getting more than 4 attacks at 20 without dual-wielding? (+20/+15/+10/+5)

I see the whirling frenzy...so that 1, Snapkick is 2 (note at 1/2 str bonus and a further -2 to all attacks) so you're suffering -4 to attacks, if you dual wield that's 5 extra attacks to 9 at -6 to all attacks...but you said you weren't dual-wielding otherwise you would have to take twf)

Also, the superior unarmed strike moves the monk unarmed damage to the next size monk (i.e. large) so they would do 4d8 instead of 2d10, and they get full str bonus on any unarmed attack/flurry attack. The Punchbarb only gets 1/2 on extra attacks. And if you include snapkick you could do 10 attacks a round as a monk or 40d8. The Barbarian would only do 6 attacks or 12d6, if they did twf they would have 18d6...still less than half a monk damage.

Edit: Each of them will get 6 feats beyond what they start with. The barbarian has to burn 2 feats to have slightly worse unarmed attack damage than the monk (improved and superior unarmed strike). So the monk has 6 feats the Barb has 4. Unless I missed something and the Barb gets twf free? The would both have to pay up for TWF, Imp. TWF, and Greater TWF (though this requires a 19 dex). Assuming those aren't free for a reason I missed, that leaves the barb with 1 which you've had him spend on snap kick. The monk would still have 3 after matching the three twf feats.

I might be inclined to pick up Weakening Touch (applies a -6 to targets Str for 1 minute...no save) which would drop your to hit by 3 and damage by 3. But may as well take snap kick and superior unarmed so it's entirely the same.

Yeah, you could emulate a monk (almost) with a barbarian, but you're still down 2 attacks (flurry +3, whirling rage only +1) they do less damage, you apply a smaller strength bonus and the monk can stun you, reduce your ability to hit/damage, and/or kill you outright from weakening touch.

Gavinfoxx

2013-01-28, 01:06 PM

Also, the superior unarmed strike moves the monk unarmed damage to the next size monk (i.e. large) so they would do 4d8 instead of 2d10

Uh, no? It just moves them further down the list, it doesn't change where the list ends up...

Larkas

2013-01-28, 01:08 PM

Sorry, how is the Punchbarian getting more than 4 attacks at 20 without dual-wielding? (+20/+15/+10/+5)

Regular routine:

+20/+15/+10/+5

With TWF tree:

+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3

With Whirling Frenzy (or regular Rage, for that matter), giving at least +4 Strength:

+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5

But remember: at 20, the Barbarian's Rage gives +8 to Strength...

EDIT: Links.

Eh, I would remove those links if I were you. The linked site is in clear violation of WotC's copyrights, and this goes directly against the rules of this board.

Karnith

2013-01-28, 01:16 PM

Sorry, how is the Punchbarian getting more than 4 attacks at 20 without dual-wielding? (+20/+15/+10/+5)He is two-weapon fighting. That's how he gets three extra attacks (up to 7). The eighth attack comes from Whirling Frenzy. I didn't put Snap Kick in the attack routine, but I can re-do it with Snap Kick, if you like.

I see the whirling frenzy...so that 1, Snapkick is 2 (note at 1/2 str bonus and a further -2 to all attacks) so you're suffering -4 to attacks, if you dual wield that's 5 extra attacks to 9 at -6 to all attacks...but you said you weren't dual-wielding otherwise you would have to take twf)
I am quite sure that I said that the punchbarian was two-weapon fighting, but if I didn't, he is: the punchbarian uses the City Brawler alternate class feature in Dragon magazine 349 to trade away proficiency with medium armor, martial weapons, and shields to gain Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, as well as the benefits of Two-Weapon Fighting while fighting unarmed. Further, you gain the benefits of Improved Two-Weapon Fighting when fighting unarmed at 6th level, and the benefit of Greater Two-Weapon Fighting at 11th level.

Also, the superior unarmed strike moves the monk unarmed damage to the next size monk (i.e. large) so they would do 4d8 instead of 2d10, and they get full str bonus on any unarmed attack/flurry attack. The Punchbarb only gets 1/2 on extra attacks. And if you include snapkick you could do 10 attacks a round as a monk or 40d8. The Barbarian would only do 6 attacks or 12d6, if they did twf they would have 18d6...still less than half a monk damage.
Superior Unarmed Strike makes a monk deal damage as though his monk level was four levels higher than normal. Since monk unarmed strike damage does not progress past 20th level, it has no effect on a 20th-level monk.

Larkas

2013-01-28, 01:18 PM

He is two-weapon fighting. That's how he gets three extra attacks (up to 7). The eighth attack comes from Whirling Frenzy. I didn't put Snap Kick in the attack routine, but I can re-do it with Snap Kick, if you like.

Oooo, right, forgot about the extra attack from Whirling Frenzy. So more like:

+20/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5

Like you said before. D'oh! :smallbiggrin:

Pickford

2013-01-28, 01:25 PM

Uh, no? It just moves them further down the list, it doesn't change where the list ends up...

Doh, misread that, was thinking of enlarge.

I am quite sure that I said that the punchbarian was two-weapon fighting, but if I didn't, he is: the punchbarian uses the City Brawler alternate class feature in Dragon magazine 349 to trade away proficiency with medium armor, martial weapons, and shields to gain Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, as well as the benefits of Two-Weapon Fighting while fighting unarmed. Further, you gain the benefits of Improved Two-Weapon Fighting when fighting unarmed at 6th level, and the benefit of Greater Two-Weapon Fighting at 11th level.

Ok...so you do almost damage as the monk. But you don't get the full str bonus on the offhand hits, and now your AC is at best 19 if you had +8 dex, 19 if you had +4 (chainmail). Any lower dex bonus and you're talking 17 or below ac. Since you get the 3 free proficiencies I suppose you could pick up the two-weapon defenses...though you really would have to have the dex for that (oh wait, since they require the actual TWF feats you can't get them without really picking up the feats).

Larkas

2013-01-28, 01:30 PM

Okay, with Snap Kick and the full strength increase from Whirling Frenzy, it goes like:

+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5

... Poor Monk! :smalleek:

Flickerdart

2013-01-28, 01:35 PM

Personally, I would go for Mountain Rage over Whirling Frenzy - that extra attack is great and all, but it's hard to argue with the benefits of Large size.

Also, don't forget that the Punchbarian's fists have a better critical range than the Monk's, thanks to Streetfighter, which needs to be accounted for in the damage numbers.

Larkas

2013-01-28, 01:41 PM

Pickford

2013-01-28, 02:18 PM

Okay, with Snap Kick and the full strength increase from Whirling Frenzy, it goes like:

+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5

... Poor Monk! :smalleek:

MH +20/+15/+10/+5 base.
MH +16/+11/+6/+1 OH +12 (base + twf no feats/features, would deal 1d3 nonlethal)
MH +18/+13/+8/+3 OH +18/+13/+8 (base + city brawler)
MH +20/+15/+10/+5 OH +20/+15/+10 Whirling +20 (base + city + whirl)
MH +18/+13/+8/+3 OH +18/+13/+8 Whirling +18 Snap +18 (base + city + whirl + snap)
so: +18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3
Obviously this doesn't include str modifiers (except from rage).

Not bad. Granted, this is at 2d6 damage and Monk has DR 10/magic. If we include the str bonus from a 20 str barb (not max possible) who's raging at +8 str for +9 damage) So if you get lucky and crit you'll do 4d6 + 18 reduced to 4d6 + 8 damage (between 12 and 32). If you don't get lucky, you'll do 2d6 + 9 reduced to 2d6 - 1 (between 1 and 11 damage) on the offhand hits you'll do 2d6 + 4 reduced to 2d6 - 6 (1 to 2 damage) or if you manage to crit 4d6 + 8 (reduced to 4d6 - 2; or 2 to 22 damage)

I'm comfortable as a level 20 with ~120 hp facing that.

A monk with equivalent stats would do:
MH +15/+10/+5 (base)
MH +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 (Base + Flurry)
MH +13/+13/+13/+8/+3 OH +15/+10/+5 (Base + Flurry + TWF feats, monk doesn't suffer any offhand penalties on unarmed)
+15/+13/+13/+13/+10/+8/+5/+3

Yeah...it is lower, but you also deal 2d10 + full str to all hits, the barb only gets DR 5/-
So: 2d10 + 5 - 5 = 2d10. 2-20, on a crit 7-45 for every hit.

Not sure it matters though. If this were a matchup One Weakening Touch negates the benefit from rage by reducing your str -6 for 1 minute, no save and one quivering palm base DC 20, likely upwards of 25, kills the Barbarian who, in this case, gave up his extra con for reflex saves.

Flickerdart

2013-01-28, 02:52 PM

Wait, you seriously think that DR/magic matters?

Lord_Gareth

2013-01-28, 02:55 PM

Wait, you seriously think that DR/magic matters?

Man, it would if both characters hadn't invested in Necklaces of Natural Attacks (if you're fighting unarmed, that necklace is the cost of entry. It is not optional, and it is not negotiable).

Mato

2013-01-28, 03:50 PM

*yawns*

So the Barbarian spends Feats on Superior Unarmed Strike, GTWF, & Snap Kick, to be like the Monk to net +14/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1/-1 eh? Then he Rages & Whirling Strike's up another attack and increases those Attack bonuses by 4 (up to up to Pickford's +18 numbers).

No never mind Whirling Frenzy trades away Rage so you never could use both at the same time, but there is also this:

A character can't use whirling frenzy at the same time that he uses any other form of rage (or similar ability).So Pickford's numbers are invalid lies favoring the Barbarian to begin with.

A Monk with GTWF alone has. +13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+3/+8/+3 only a single attack point behind the Barb's none-ticked-off-state and missing a single attack. But he spent two less Feats, and has 3 more than the Barbarian to start with. To give you an idea what that means, the Monk has can take Martial Study three times, and pick up Martial Stance, and still have a Feat slot to spare. Not to mention with the itemless factor that Barbarian is using 2d6 for damage (avg 7) while the Monk is at minimum using 2d10 (11 avg). But hey, believe it or not the lack of items favors the Barbarian, it means no buying Rage for 4k a pop so the Monk can pretend to be a better Barbarian than the Barbarian.

Yeah, not impressed. Really, if you want to pretend to be a different class than you are, play a Chameleon or roll a Wizard up.

Lord_Gareth

2013-01-28, 03:56 PM

*yawns*

So the Barbarian spends Feats on Superior Unarmed Strike, GTWF, & Snap Kick, to be like the Monk to net +14/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1/-1 eh? Then he Rages & Whirling Strike's up another attack and increases those Attack bonuses by 4 (up to up to Pickford's +18 numbers).

No never mind Whirling Frenzy trades away Rage so you never could use both at the same time, but there is also this:
So Pickford's numbers are invalid lies favoring the Barbarian to begin with.

A Monk with GTWF alone has. +13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+3/+8/+3 only a single attack point behind the Barb's none-ticked-off-state and missing a single attack. But he spent two less Feats, and has 3 more than the Barbarian to start with. To give you an idea what that means, the Monk has can take Martial Study three times, and pick up Martial Stance, and still have a Feat slot to spare. Not to mention with the itemless factor that Barbarian is using 2d6 for damage (avg 7) while the Monk is at minimum using 2d10 (11 avg). But hey, believe it or not the lack of items favors the Barbarian, it means no buying Rage for 4k a pop so the Monk can pretend to be a better Barbarian than the Barbarian.

Yeah, not impressed. Really, if you want to pretend to be a different class than you are, play a Chameleon or roll a Wizard up.

Psst, hey - Monk's Belt. This goes two ways there, friend.

Flickerdart

2013-01-28, 03:57 PM

Gavinfoxx

2013-01-28, 04:07 PM

So let's see... At level 20... Ferocity, Spirit Lion Totem, Whirling Frenzy, Wolf Totem, Skilled City Dweller, City Brawler, Streetfighter... Superior Unarmed Strike, Snap Kick, a Monk's Belt, A Necklace of Natural Attacks, a Fanged Ring, a Monk's Tattoo...

EDIT: Sorry, only meant to have whirling frenzy

Karnith

2013-01-28, 04:09 PM

So the Barbarian spends Feats on Superior Unarmed Strike, GTWF, & Snap Kick, to be like the Monk to net +14/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1/-1 eh? Then he Rages & Whirling Strike's up another attack and increases those Attack bonuses by 4 (up to up to Pickford's +18 numbers).Actually, the Barbarian only spends feats on Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick, much as a monk might. Barbarians with the City Brawler ACF from Dragon 349 get the benefits of Greater Two-Weapon Fighting when fighting unarmed for free at 11th level (and get Improved Unarmed Strike, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting for free at earlier levels).

No never mind Whirling Frenzy trades away Rage so you never could use both at the same time, but there is also this:
So Pickford's numbers are invalid lies favoring the Barbarian to begin with.First, I'm pretty sure that Pickford favors the monk over the Barbarian, and second no one that I've seen has been suggesting that the Barbarian gets to rage and use whirling frenzy to begin with. I know that my numbers were only counting whirling frenzy bonuses.

A Monk with GTWF alone has. +13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+3/+8/+3 only a single attack point behind the Barb's none-ticked-off-state and missing a single attack.How often do Barbarians enter combat and not enter rage (or whirling frenzy, in this case)? Why would you assume that the Barbarian wouldn't use his main class feature when he's fighting? He can certainly use it enough times per day; a 20th-level punchbarian gets to Whirling Frenzy 6 times per day.

But he spent two less Feats, and has 3 more than the Barbarian to start with. What two feats are those? Do monks regularly not take Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick (the latter of which isn't even necessary to the build, though it is nice)?

Also, Wolf Totem barbarian is generally considered part of the punchbarian build, which means that he gets Improved Trip at 2nd level as a bonus feat.

Not to mention with the itemless factor that Barbarian is using 2d6 for damage (avg 7) while the Monk is at minimum using 2d10 (11 avg). But hey, believe it or not the lack of items favors the Barbarian, it means no buying Rage for 4k a pop so the Monk can pretend to be a better Barbarian than the Barbarian.
A Barbarian's whirling frenzy grants a +8 Strength bonus at 20th level, meaning that with his primary (i.e. not off-hand) attacks he'll deal equal damage, on average, compared to a 20th level Monk (the monk's unarmed strikes have a wider range of damage values that they can deal, though). With off-hand attacks, he will do less damage.

Also, monk's belt.

Yeah, not impressed. Really, if you want to pretend to be a different class than you are, play a Chameleon or roll a Wizard up.
The point of a punchbarian build (or, at least, why I suggested it to one of my players way back) is to provide a character build that has all of the flavor of being an unarmed combatant, while still being mechanically effective, which the monk is not.

Flickerdart

2013-01-28, 04:10 PM

Ferocity and Whirling Frenzy both replace Rage, so you can't have both.

Mato

2013-01-28, 04:21 PM

Barbarian gets free IUS and TWF feat chain from an ACF, so he's ahead feat-wise. Plus he has Pounce, so he can actually make use of all those attacks. And the barbarian's boosted Strength and higher BAB puts him way ahead in terms of to-hit.

TWF chain is Dragon Magazine material.

You know what else is Dragon Magazine material?
Martial Monk.

So, choices choices... Whirlwind Strike at level one to attack every nearby enemy? Maybe Greater Two Weapon Fighting to gain a third TWF attack, a 3rd one mind you which means you obviously have a second and even if the DM throws a fit you got 3 bonus Feats to pick up the entire chain by lv6 anyway right? Maybe Weapon Supremacy, for +1 AC & 1/rnd +5 to Attack & 1/rnd Take 10 on an Attack roll? Maybe Power Attack for your 1st level Feat and Shock Trooper as your Bonus so you can benefit from the Ubercharger's Feat before you even have BAB? Maybe Double Hit & Snap Kick for the 2nd for three attacks per AoO? Ugh, so many decent choices. It's hard to settle on one, unlike the Barbarian whose nature sucks so bad there is no other reason you'd ever trade in the TWF choice...

Also Dragon Mag is Wild Monk who gains Wild Shape and thus access to Wild Feats. Like 120 foot Blindsight, or Wolverine's Rage (+2 str/con, infinite times per day with no no-think cause), or Dragon Wild Shape to gain five Natural Attacks & flight & breath weapons & in the specific case of Steel Dragon Spell Resistance.

So... Dragon content huh? Sounds cool, I'm game. You?

Flickerdart

2013-01-28, 04:24 PM

So... Dragon content huh? Sounds cool, I'm game. You?
I'm not sure you understand what's going on. This is a competition between Barbarian and Monk in the "being a Monk" department. The Monk's ability to be a Druid is not relevant to the discussion.

Karnith

2013-01-28, 04:24 PM

So... Dragon content huh? Sounds cool, I'm game. You?
I am not, nor have I been, arguing that punchbarians are better than monks in all situations, or that a punchbarian is better than all monk builds. I am arguing that they are better unarmed combatants than standard monks.

Mato

2013-01-28, 04:36 PM

I am not, nor have I been, arguing that punchbarians are better than monks in all situations, or that a punchbarian is better than all monk builds. I am arguing that they are better unarmed combatants than standard monks.And what I don't understand is where in the heck you'd find the grounds for that.

I mean, you're using a couple ACFs & Dragon content to say TWF & Rage gives more attacks and better hit rate to than a Featless Monk. Well duh, idk about you but I'd expect that. It's low enough in power Feats make a huge difference, claiming one has several and the other don't will always make an obvious difference.

Monk natively gains three Bonus Feats, which in turn is room for the TWF chain without Dragon. And again natively deal more damage (capping at 2d10 not 2d6) without turning to Feats. And still gain two additional attacks, without Feats. So while the Barbarian is actively trying to be like a Monk, the Monk would actively trying to be better than a dude that simply punches people (ie a Monk). The entire time you're forcing the Barbarian to play catch up to a Class whose goal is to spend all their effort in being better than them selves.

To me, your saying the best a Barbarian can ever hope to achieve is to be a craptastic as a poorly made Monk. That says a lot, but not what you think it should say.

Flickerdart

2013-01-28, 04:42 PM

Monk natively gains three Bonus Feats, which in turn is room for the TWF chain without Dragon.
The feats are crap, Monks gain the TWF feat chain late, and their MAD makes it difficult for them to get it anyway.

And again natively deal more damage (capping at 2d10 not 2d6) without turning to Feats.
More damage dice, sure, but the Barbarian's strength is going to more than make up for that.

And still gain two additional attacks, without Feats.

Whirling Frenzy and the extra BAB attack mean that Barbarians get the same amount of attacks...but at a higher attack bonus. Monks run 15/15/15/10/5, Barbarians get 18/18/13/8/3, except Barbarians also have +8 Strength, which is another +4 to hit over the Monk. Final routine from just class features is 22/22/17/12/7. Monk cries in the corner.

Karnith

2013-01-28, 04:57 PM

I mean, you're using a couple ACFs & Dragon content to say TWF & Rage gives more attacks and better hit rate to than a Featless Monk. Well duh, idk about you but I'd expect that. It's low enough in power Feats make a huge difference, claiming one has several and the other don't will always make an obvious difference.The only feats that the punchbarian build I've presented has taken are Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick, both of which are also feats that you'd want to take as a monk (I have also stated that the latter is not necessary, just nice).

Monk natively gains three Bonus Feats, which in turn is room for the TWF chain without Dragon. And again natively deal more damage (capping at 2d10 not 2d6) without turning to Feats. And still gain two additional attacks, without Feats. So while the Barbarian is actively trying to be like a Monk, the Monk would actively trying to be better than a dude that simply punches people (ie a Monk). The entire time you're forcing the Barbarian to play catch up to a Class whose goal is to spend all their effort in being better than them selves.
First, the monk gets three bonus feats (well, four with IUS), and a punchbarian gets four (well, five if you count IUS) bonus feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting for unarmed attacks from City Brawler, and Improved Trip from Wolf Totem. The other feats presented in the build are feats that you would already take anyway in a monk build.

Second, monks are worse than a barbarian at two-weapon fighting because they have a lower base attack bonus than a barbarian, meaning that they get the feats later, and they actually need to qualify for the feats.

Third, I have already acknowledged that monks have higher base unarmed strike damage than a punchbarian, but base damage is not terribly relevant, and the punchbarian makes up for it on his primary (not off-hand) attacks while using whirling frenzy anyway, because it gives him +8 strength.

Fourth, I have already covered how punchbarians have better attack routines than monks do, and Flickerdart just posted similar numbers for when you don't even bother to use Two-Weapon Fighting.

To me, your saying the best a Barbarian can ever hope to achieve is to be a craptastic as a poorly made Monk. That says a lot, but not what you think it should say.
What? I have not said anywhere that this is the best barbarian build, I'm saying it's a better "monk" build than a normal monk 20. The barbarian actually gets weaker by being a punchbarian instead of just, you know, using a sword or something. The point of the build is to provide people who want to play an effective unarmed combatant (i.e. a "monk") with a way of mechanically doing so that isn't the monk, which is normally not very good.

The first time I ever used the punchbarian build was when I had a player in my group struggling to contribute while playing a monk. So he and I were able to come up with a character build that had substantially the same shtick (hitting people with his fists), but was actually good at it. I could have also gone with an unarmed swordsage or a tashalatora monk, but I didn't know about either of those.

Mato

2013-01-28, 05:04 PM

Final routine from just class features is 22/22/17/12/7. Monk cries in the corner.Huh?

Given that BAB routine is for a lv20 (+15 for monk). Let's compare to the three CR20 Core Monsters.
Balor: AC 35, Dex 25, no method of seeing Hidden Creatures.
Pit Fiend: AC 40, Dex 27, no method of seeing Hidden Creatures.
Terrasqua: AC 35, Dex 16, has Scent & Blind-Fight.

Since the Barbarian gets his Whirling Strike ACF, the Monk gets Dark Moon Disciple AFC. Given without DM based tweaks the above monsters could not see the Monk (-dex to ac & -2 to AC).

vs | Balor | Fiend | Big T |
Barb | 35% | 10% | 35% |
Monk | 45% | 25% | 5% |
The Monk in effect has higher hit chances on average. So why would he cry?

Is it because his poor Will save will be dominated by those SLA using Outsiders? *cough* Wrong Class, my bad. But you did say Monk and not Unarmed only like Karnith, those various Extraordinary/Supernatural abilities and better Saves need a mention somewhere.

Flickerdart

2013-01-28, 05:18 PM

Since the Barbarian gets his Whirling Strike ACF, the Monk gets Dark Moon Disciple AFC. Given without DM based tweaks the above monsters could not see the Monk (-dex to ac & -2 to AC).
Single-class monks don't qualify for that ACF, as the Monks of the Dark Moon are required by their order to possess both Monk and Sorcerer levels.

those various Extraordinary/Supernatural abilities and better Saves need a mention somewhere.
Those various abilities are rubbish, and the saves suffer from MADness.

Mato

2013-01-28, 05:37 PM

Single-class monks don't qualify for that ACF, as the Monks of the Dark Moon are required by their order to possess both Monk and Sorcerer levels.Lords of Darkness, which details Monks of the Dark Moon, doesn't require Sorcerer levels. Monk who do multiclass are taught some of their key spells, but that is besides the point.

It even lists a couple pure classed Dark Moon Monks as encounters. Membership at a junior level is still membership for the ACF's requirements. :)

Those various abilities are rubbish, and the saves suffer from MADness.I wasn't aware Evasion sucked. Same for the almost At-Will Blink SLA too?

Edit - Oh hey. I forgot about the Chaos Monk. Same initial -2 Attack penalty that lessens to -0, but you gain 1d4-1, 1d6-1 and 1d6 for your 'Furry of Blows' trade in. While this does mean you have a 16% chance of having less attacks per round than a Standard Monk, 66% of the time you have more, up to six additional attacks on top of BAB more. That's up to four more than the Whirling Frenzy Barbarian...

Flickerdart

2013-01-28, 05:41 PM

Lords of Darkness, which details Monks of the Dark Moon, doesn't require Sorcerer levels. Monk who do multiclass are taught some of their key spells, but that is besides the point.

It even lists a couple pure classed Dark Moon Monks as encounters. Membership at a junior level is still membership for the ACF's requirements. :)

The Monks of the Dark Moon are listed in Champions of Ruin, which is the authoritative source. Lords of Darkness is a 3.0 book and overruled by the newer write-up.

Karnith

2013-01-28, 05:41 PM

Since the Barbarian gets his Whirling Strike ACF, the Monk gets Dark Moon Disciple AFC. Given without DM based tweaks the above monsters could not see the Monk (-dex to ac & -2 to AC).
I am not contesting that a monk, with the right ACFs, can be more effective than a punchbarian. I am arguing that a punchbarian is better than a standard monk at unarmed combat. Giving the monk ACFs does nothing to contest my argument.

Mato

2013-01-28, 05:44 PM

See edit to post that I was doing while you both posted.

Flickerdart

2013-01-28, 05:47 PM

Edit - Oh hey. I forgot about the Chaos Monk. Same initial -2 Attack penalty that lessens to -0, but you gain 1d4-1, 1d6-1 and 1d6 for your 'Furry of Blows' trade in. While this does mean you have a 16% chance of having less attacks per round than a Standard Monk, 66% of the time you have more, up to six additional attacks on top of BAB more. That's up to four more than the Whirling Frenzy Barbarian...
That's also Dragon material. So are you for or against using Dragon? You should really stop flip-flopping like that. Plus, it also disqualifies you from your precious Monks of toe Dark Sun, who are LE (not that you can get in anyway).

Mato

2013-01-28, 05:56 PM

That's also Dragon material. So are you for or against using Dragon? You should really stop flip-flopping like that.Think about it.

Dark Moon Disciple exists. It doesn't matter if four books lend their say so. FR:CS doesn't say Sorcerer, LoD says by example Monk-Only is fine, CoR says you simply need the potential to become a sorcerer. Seeing how sorcerer has no prerequisites then best you could get away with is saying to need a charisma score of 10 which would allow you to cast cantrips if you did become a Sorcerer.

But nope, the AFC is off the table because it demonstrates the Monk has superior hit rates. Dragon Mag's Wild Monk off the table because that's a Druid. Dragon Mag Chaos & Martial off the table because City Brawler can't measure up.

Exactly how much knee capping do you need to do to have a valid point? Honestly, I'm only continuing talking to you to because I want to know how much it'd take to lower a Monk to the Barbarian's level. So far, you you haven't picked things up form an ACFed Barb vs no-ACF/Feat Monk and that's just in unarmed combat alone. I hope there is a middle ground in there somewhere.

Flickerdart

2013-01-28, 06:02 PM

Think about it.

Dark Moon Disciple exists. It doesn't matter if four books lend their say so. FR:CS doesn't say Sorcerer, LoD says by example Monk-Only is fine, CoR says you simply need the potential to become a sorcerer. Seeing how sorcerer has no prerequisites then best you could get away with is saying to need a charisma score of 10 which would allow you to cast cantrips if you did become a Sorcerer.
Nope. Read it again.

"The Monks of the Dark Moon are a sect of sorcerer-monks..."
"The Monks of the Dark Moon do not accept any who does not undergo their training...his training would focus on the aspect of the training that he lacked"
So it's pretty clear what they're talking about here. To get in, you must train as a Sorcerer.

Also, any treasure you get is property of the order, so say bye-bye to your WBL.

I have no more interest in discussing this with you, since you can't seem to stick to a single point, and are only concerned with posturing about how many mutually incompatible ACFs your favourite class has. The point has already been proven to anyone that takes their time to understand it, and you're the only one still ranting.

Mato

2013-01-28, 06:35 PM

Joining the monks of the dark moon
... Those with sorcerer talents might be watched and guided from an early age, but full recruitment does not take place until they reach maturity. recruits must be among the strongest in their faith, but under no circumstances can the have taken the oath of priesthood. Shar commands that her priests and monks be separate, so both can carry out her will without complications. Finally recruits must have demonstrated the potential to develop sorcererous abilities (as noted, Sorcerer has no requirements, you always have the potential). ... the Monks of the Dark Moon do not accept any member who does not undergo their training. The year-long training does not always produce powerful members, through, and some graduates have not yet mastered their martial or arcane abilities enough to harness them on any level. A character who was already a monk to a sorcerer could be invited to join as long as he fulfilled the three principles, and his training could focus on the aspect of training he lacked. Likewise green candidates will often show aptitude for one class or the other but not both and so leave the monastery with only rudimentary skills as a monk or sorcerer.Obviously, from the joining the monks of the dark moon section as it's irrefutable. If you were trying to say a Monk after obtaining Dark Moon Disciple should look into Sorcerer? Oh I agree, every crappy mundane should looking into picking up spellcasting, you don't need fluff for that. But you're not. You said a Monk cannot enter the sect, and thus cannot obtain the ACF despite the relevant section flat out disagreeing with you.

And if you want a trailing last word, try not to end things alluding to you have proven the Barb is better, someone else posted Barbarian numbers that fell short of the Monks. This had nothing to do with you, all you've done is talk about what the Monk shouldn't have and set your self up to disagree with direct text from the books. And assuming Monk is my favorite class? No, the weaker-than-a-Wizard Sorcerer is. I like it and can admit it's problems, I wish you could do the same.

But by all means, please ignore me. In fact, find the button that does it. I encourage you to stop talking to me so much I will do it as well.

Pickford

2013-01-29, 01:25 AM

Man, it would if both characters hadn't invested in Necklaces of Natural Attacks (if you're fighting unarmed, that necklace is the cost of entry. It is not optional, and it is not negotiable).

Oh, free 150,000 gold? I don't think the full amulet is necessary. The monk dropped it to +3 and picked up bracers of armor +8 for 96k.

But if we're just arbitrarily giving away magic items to, oh so conveniently, let the Barbarian get through the Monk's capstone DR...

The monk has a belt of giant strength +6 (36,000) bracers of armor +8 (64,000) and gloves of dexterity +6 (36,000). That leaves an additional 14,000 to spend on something. Perhaps a Periapt of Wisdom +4 (yeah 16,000, so sue me!) I'm thinking +3 damage on all rolls, +3 to hit, +13 AC and much tougher special attacks outweighs the single amulet. Of course, since you sank all that into one item your AC must be hovering around 10 whereas the Monk's would be what...30ish? That's part of why we were discussing without any items, both sides can get them and they 'should' balance out in any comparison.

Actually it occurs to me that for that much, I could just make a ghost-touch weapon and some crappy armor with ethrealness (which lasts as long as you want it to) and then it doesn't matter if you're a monk or a barbarian because you can hit them, but they can't hit you.

Edit: Also the Monk's belt isn't useful for the Punchbarian, with superior unarmed strike they already get better damage. The belt basically provides +1 AC in that case. Really not worth it for the Monk either, Belt of Giant Strength +6 is going to be better in any given scenario. (+3 damage on all attacks and +3 to hit vs +1 AC and a use of Stunning fist....yeah).

Gavinfoxx

2013-01-29, 01:40 AM

Okay... checking... Monk's Tattoo doesn't do anything for a nonmonk character, but it would cost 80k (!!). A Monk's Belt costs 13k. Fanged Ring, from Dragon Magic, costs 10k. A +1 Necklace of Natural Weapons for one weapon costs 2,600 gp. The same for two weapons costs 5200.

Pickford

2013-01-29, 01:46 AM

Also Necklace of Natural weapons...isn't that 3.0? I think we'd be talking an amulet of mighty fists for 3.5.

And, not that it makes any difference, but unarmed strikes of 'monks' are treated as manufactured or natural weapons. A Punchbarian doesn't get that benefit. (i.e. no greater magic fang)

So the Monk could have the +5 to both fists for free if they know an extra nice mage.

Gavinfoxx

2013-01-29, 01:49 AM

Necklace of Natural Weapons is unupdated 3.0, and lets you get, you know, enhancements that do stuff... like, say, Magebane, Dispelling, Holy, Collision, etc.

Karnith

2013-01-29, 09:26 AM

Oh, free 150,000 gold? I don't think the full amulet is necessary. The monk dropped it to +3 and picked up bracers of armor +8 for 96k.
A punchbarian doesn't need to spring for a 96,000 gp item that gives him a +8 armor bonus, because he can wear armor. He can spend 16,000 on a +4 chain shirt, which leaves him with a lot of money that he can spend enchanting his fists (or getting other magic items). That is chump change. Furthermore, both the monk and the punchbarian benefit from items about equally, especially those belts of giant strength. Only monk-specific items help the monk more (and there aren't many of them). But, because the monk class is really MAD, monks are basically required to buy a lot of items that boost their stats, while a barbarian only needs to worry about Strength and Constitution.

Furthermore, stop pretending that a 1-on-1 battle between a monk and a punchbarian is somehow relevant. It isn't; you don't fight one other person 1-on-1 while you adventure, you adventure as a part of a party and have to contribute in many different scenarios. Being able to beat a monk to death by yourself isn't difficult, and more importantly won't come up very often. And for reference, your whole shtick about "etherealness plus ghost touch" doesn't work, on multiple levels: ghost touch only allows you to affect incorporeal creatures, it does nothing to affect ethereal ones. Moreover, it's not a reflection of the class, it's WBL shenanigans. Anyone with cash can do it.

Also Necklace of Natural weapons...isn't that 3.0? I think we'd be talking an amulet of mighty fists for 3.5.

And, not that it makes any difference, but unarmed strikes of 'monks' are treated as manufactured or natural weapons. A Punchbarian doesn't get that benefit. (i.e. no greater magic fang)

So the Monk could have the +5 to both fists for free if they know an extra nice mage.
First, Necklace of Natural Weapons is different from an Amulet of Mighty Fists; since it remains unupdated, it is a valid item to use. It is also absolutely necessary for any character who wants to fight unarmed, because without one, the character fighting unarmed is going to have a lot of problems damaging anything without being totally reliant on the someone casting Greater Magic Fang or something on you (and you won't get all of the awesome weapon abilities that you could otherwise).

Second, Greater Magic Fang works on all unarmed strikes, monk and otherwise. Consider the SRD text:

Magic fang gives one natural weapon of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon. (The spell does not change an unarmed strike’s damage from nonlethal damage to lethal damage.)
I think you meant to reference Greater Magic Weapon, which does actually work for the monk's unarmed strike.

Mato

2013-01-29, 11:33 AM

Speaking of 3.0 vs 3.5, some of the best unarmed & Monk support comes from 3.0 material. eg. Necklace of Natural Weapons, Sandals of Tiger's Leap, Ki Straps, and Sparing Dummy of the Master.

However, 3.5's approach was over the top unbalanced material. eg. Ring of the Viper & Venomfire, Scorpion Kama, Snap Kick, Dark Moon Disciple, and Greater Mighty Wallop.

Karnith

2013-01-29, 11:43 AM

It's also too bad that Flying Kick got updated from the Oriental Adventures version - with any build that can pounce, dealing double damage with your unarmed strikes on a charge is pretty good, though not really enough to keep up with chargers using weapons, and it's fine even without pounce (though substantially weaker).

Lord_Gareth

2013-01-29, 12:09 PM

Oh, free 150,000 gold?

So, I didn't quote the rest of this post because this is where the misunderstanding started.

See, I used the word invested. Which means both characters buy one. I didn't imply, suggest, or entail getting ANYTHING for free. The Necklace of Natural Attacks is something any build intending on using its fists NEEDS, regardless of the class you choose for it, and paying for it up-front is essentially price of admission.

Pickford

2013-01-29, 12:22 PM

A punchbarian doesn't need to spring for a 96,000 gp item that gives him a +8 armor bonus, because he can wear armor. He can spend 16,000 on a +4 chain shirt, which leaves him with a lot of money that he can spend enchanting his fists (or getting other magic items). That is chump change. Furthermore, both the monk and the punchbarian benefit from items about equally, especially those belts of giant strength. Only monk-specific items help the monk more (and there aren't many of them). But, because the monk class is really MAD, monks are basically required to buy a lot of items that boost their stats, while a barbarian only needs to worry about Strength and Constitution.

The Barbarian would have a terrible AC (max +12, but they can't because then they'd be MAD too, STR/DEX and CON?! sacre bleue! :p). And the Barbarian has to take an ACF that has basically no real drawbacks. (Not saying it's bs, but...it's bs.

Furthermore, stop pretending that a 1-on-1 battle between a monk and a punchbarian is somehow relevant. It isn't; you don't fight one other person 1-on-1 while you adventure, you adventure as a part of a party and have to contribute in many different scenarios. Being able to beat a monk to death by yourself isn't difficult, and more importantly won't come up very often. And for reference, your whole shtick about "etherealness plus ghost touch" doesn't work, on multiple levels: ghost touch only allows you to affect incorporeal creatures, it does nothing to affect ethereal ones. Moreover, it's not a reflection of the class, it's WBL shenanigans. Anyone with cash can do it.

You're right, it's not, but it is a comparison. A Barbarian who does this will be doing less damage than an equally geared monk and have less AC than an equally geared monk, which is not good. Further, they don't get any of the special attacks the monk gets by default and won't be able to qualify for many of the monk feats which have wisdom requirements. (Periapt of wisdom would pre-empt a necklace/amulet)

First, Necklace of Natural Weapons is different from an Amulet of Mighty Fists; since it remains unupdated, it is a valid item to use. It is also absolutely necessary for any character who wants to fight unarmed, because without one, the character fighting unarmed is going to have a lot of problems damaging anything without being totally reliant on the someone casting Greater Magic Fang or something on you (and you won't get all of the awesome weapon abilities that you could otherwise).

Great, the only place I found a reference was from the sword and fist which was 3.0, and thus no longer valid.

Second, Greater Magic Fang works on all unarmed strikes, monk and otherwise. Consider the SRD text:

I think you meant to reference Greater Magic Weapon, which does actually work for the monk's unarmed strike.

I suspect you are right. :smallamused:

Lord_Gareth

2013-01-29, 12:25 PM

Great, the only place I found a reference was from the sword and fist which was 3.0, and thus no longer valid.

We already explained why this is wrong, but why don't we explain it again - Content from 3.0 that has not been replaced or updated is perfectly valid for use and remains RAW.

'Kay? Mmkay.

Pickford

2013-01-29, 12:27 PM

So, I didn't quote the rest of this post because this is where the misunderstanding started.

See, I used the word invested. Which means both characters buy one. I didn't imply, suggest, or entail getting ANYTHING for free. The Necklace of Natural Attacks is something any build intending on using its fists NEEDS, regardless of the class you choose for it, and paying for it up-front is essentially price of admission.

Except you take the alternative class feature at level 1. So you aren't investing 150k in anything. So if you survived those early levels, by all means, save up to buy the amulet. But until you manage to accrue 150k (and unless your GM is generous beyond all reason) you won't have that for a long time and will be extremely ineffective. And even when you 'do' get it, a monk will have 150k worth of gear as well, which can be spread among several magic items to gain more overall power. (As demonstrated in the rest of the post you conveniently ignored to pick a, by your own standards, irrelevant nit.)

Lord_Gareth

2013-01-29, 12:35 PM

Except you take the alternative class feature at level 1. So you aren't investing 150k in anything. So if you survived those early levels, by all means, save up to buy the amulet. But until you manage to accrue 150k (and unless your GM is generous beyond all reason) you won't have that for a long time and will be extremely ineffective. And even when you 'do' get it, a monk will have 150k worth of gear as well, which can be spread among several magic items to gain more overall power. (As demonstrated in the rest of the post you conveniently ignored to pick a, by your own standards, irrelevant nit.)

You are not paying attention.

Amulet of Mighty Fists

This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.

Faint evocation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic fang, creator’s caster level must be at least three times the amulet’s bonus; Price 6,000 gp (+1), 24,000 gp (+2), 54,000 gp (+3), 96,000 gp (+4), 150,000 gp (+5).

See that? That's an AMULET OF MIGHTY FISTS. That's what YOU are talking about.

I am talking about the ENTIRELY DIFFERENT item known as the NECKLACE OF NATURAL ATTACKS, which is less than 10k.

Pickford

2013-01-29, 01:00 PM

You are not paying attention.

See that? That's an AMULET OF MIGHTY FISTS. That's what YOU are talking about.

I am talking about the ENTIRELY DIFFERENT item known as the NECKLACE OF NATURAL ATTACKS, which is less than 10k.

Where are you finding this item? I don't see it in srd20 and google doesn't come up with it.

You're getting awfully agitated for providing no real information on the item but casually mentioning it as a counterbalance to the barbarian's inferior unarmed.

Lord_Gareth

2013-01-29, 01:01 PM

Where are you finding this item? I don't see it in srd20 and google doesn't come up with it.

You're getting awfully agitated for providing no real information on the item but casually mentioning it as a counterbalance to the barbarian's inferior unarmed.

Still not paying attention. First, I stated that both characters are going to want one, since it allows them to put weapon properties on their punch. Second, it's been mentioned already that it comes out of Savage Species.

Pickford

2013-01-29, 01:15 PM

Still not paying attention. First, I stated that both characters are going to want one, since it allows them to put weapon properties on their punch. Second, it's been mentioned already that it comes out of Savage Species.

Which I don't have, but I was able to find someone who quoted the item.

Necklace of Natural Weapons: The enhancement bonuses on this necklace are applied to attack and damage rolls involving one or more of the wearer’s natural weapons. In addition, any weapon special quality may be applied to this necklace, and the quality then applies to those natural weapons as well. For instance, a +1 throwing returning necklace of natural weapons would apply its enhancement bonus and the throwing and returning special abilities to one or more of the wearer’s natural weapons.
Caster Level: 3rd; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor; Market Price: 600 gp, plus the cost of the enhancement bonuses, multiplied by the number of natural weapons affected. A +1 necklace of natural weapons that affects one natural weapon costs 2,600 gp; if the same necklace affects six natural weapons, it costs 15,600 gp.

However. Unarmed Attacks are not natural weapons for non-monks, they are just treated as light weapons (which is kind of a confusing misnomer, but it just refers to the size of the thing relative to the person).

Neither IUS nor SUS change the unarmed strikes to be weapons, that is specifically a class feature of the monk:

"A monk's unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons"

Barbarian doesn't get that. Also, and you are fortunate in this regard, because a Barbarian isn't proficient in natural weapons, the way a druid explicitly is, they would take a -4 to all attacks if this were true. But luckily, it's not, so the necklace doesn't work for the Punchbarian unless they take a level of monk.

Gavinfoxx

2013-01-29, 01:23 PM

Unarmed Strike is a Natural Weapon, in multiple places... for example, look at the Fanged Ring in Dragon Magic.

Vaz

2013-01-29, 01:29 PM

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a

Says there that things like Magic Fang affect Natural Attacks. QED the beltdoes.

Pickford

2013-01-29, 01:31 PM

Unarmed Strike is a Natural Weapon, in multiple places... for example, look at the Fanged Ring in Dragon Magic.

That ring grants two feats, Imp. Unarmed strike and Imp. Natural Attack. Nowhere does it indicate that unarmed strike is a natural weapon.

Further, natural attacks are things creatures have, not people. (Though I suppose by that definition Lizardmen aren't people, so maybe I should rephrase before the Lizardperson Rights Association litigates me :smalleek: )

But more to the point: By default, all characters suffer attacks of Opportunity when attacking with an unarmed strike. This can be mitigated through the use of IUS or a weapon (i.e. spiked gauntlet) or a spell (considered armed).

The following from natural attacks:

"A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity."

So that would mean nobody ever would take AoO when using unarmed strikes...except they do, which means it's not a natural weapon.

Which further means the necklace of natural attacks doesn't apply. (Which is why it's so much cheaper, almost 50k cheaper, than an amulet of mighty fists).

RAW baby.

Edit: Vaz, that's only applicable to monks. You want the necklace to work, take a level in monk.

animewatcha

2013-01-29, 01:54 PM

On a sidenote, flurry over decisive strike question? Decisive is full-round versus full-attack which limits what ways it can be done. Same deal with Chaos monk. The 'super flurry' is full-round, not full-attack. IIRC, wild monk doesn't get bonus feats.

Gavinfoxx

2013-01-29, 01:55 PM

If you are wearing a Monk's Belt, your unarmed strike is treated as a Monk's... so it counts as a Natural Attack... So Improved Natural Attack will work on it...

Pickford

2013-01-29, 01:57 PM

If you are wearing a Monk's Belt, your unarmed strike is treated as a Monk's... so it counts as a Natural Attack... So Improved Natural Attack will work on it...

No.

"If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk."

All that grants is damage of (1d8) and ac (+1) of a 5th level monk. It does not treat the character as having the unarmed strike class feature of a monk.

Phelix-Mu

2013-01-29, 02:13 PM

Alright, so this is very RAW-heavy at the moment. But I thought a few common sense points should be inserted.

1.) Amulet of mighty fists is humourously overpriced. They should have narrowed it to a single type of attack (claws, bite, unarmed strike, etc) and cut the price by some considerable margin. They didn't. As a DM, you should.

2.) Necklace of Natural Attacks is perhaps a little underpriced, but lots of the stuff from Savage Species went a long way to increasing the power curve in the game (illithid savant is the most hyperbolic example, but most of the PrC in there are kind of silly-weird strong). A DM could allow this item for a slightly increased price, but the same DM might be persuaded of the wisdom of allowing the amulet of mighty fists to also be enchanted as if it were a magical weapon, allowing further enchant of weapon special abilities such as flaming and so forth.

3.) Punchy barbarian sounds cool. Punchy monk sounds cool. The cool vs cool argument is interesting, but of little consequence. The bones of this issue seems to be pricing and what natural weapons do.

The descriptions of natural weapons, like the descriptions of whether monk is proficient in unarmed strike, are WOEFULLY inadequate to the task, being both incomplete and poorly written (see the lizardmen comment). The RAW here is beyond bizarre. Spending a feat on being able to use a type of weapon should get you proficiency in that weapon. Feats should be cool, and punching isn't so cool that it should take two feats to use it (Simple Weapon Proficiency and IUS).

Pricing is more of a metagame issue, as WBL is a guideline, not a hard fact, and world flavor vis a vis how much bling the pcs can afford when, is entirely down to the DM. Thus, saying that such and such a build should be able to afford what when is pretty useless in practice, limiting this to theoretical op, which is a silly place to bring up something as small as gp value of items.

Basically, I'm against using equip as an integral part of a build, since actually getting that equip is out of the hands of the player. On the other hand, simple assumptions about gear (availability of magic weapons at level x, availability of adamantine weapon at level y) are pretty fair game, but a strong build should not pivot on the presence of a certain item in the game.

So far off the OP. Didn't the OP specifically say he wanted a monk, not a monk-ish?

Pickford

2013-01-29, 02:24 PM

Alright, so this is very RAW-heavy at the moment. But I thought a few common sense points should be inserted.

2.) Necklace of Natural Attacks is perhaps a little underpriced, but lots of the stuff from Savage Species went a long way to increasing the power curve in the game (illithid savant is the most hyperbolic example, but most of the PrC in there are kind of silly-weird strong). A DM could allow this item for a slightly increased price, but the same DM might be persuaded of the wisdom of allowing the amulet of mighty fists to also be enchanted as if it were a magical weapon, allowing further enchant of weapon special abilities such as flaming and so forth.

3.) Punchy barbarian sounds cool. Punchy monk sounds cool. The cool vs cool argument is interesting, but of little consequence. The bones of this issue seems to be pricing and what natural weapons do.

The descriptions of natural weapons, like the descriptions of whether monk is proficient in unarmed strike, are WOEFULLY inadequate to the task, being both incomplete and poorly written (see the lizardmen comment). The RAW here is beyond bizarre. Spending a feat on being able to use a type of weapon should get you proficiency in that weapon. Feats should be cool, and punching isn't so cool that it should take two feats to use it (Simple Weapon Proficiency and IUS).

Unarmed Strikes aren't weapons. The overriding primary source on this is the text of the PHB pg 314 which defines both unarmed attacks and unarmed strikes:

"unarmed attack: A melee attack made with no weapon in hand."
"unarmed strike: A successful blow, typically dealing nonlethal damage, from a character attacking without weapons. A monk can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike, but others deal nonlethal damage."
Emphasis mine.

No weapon proficiency exists because they are not weapons. Monk unarmed strikes are 'treated' as manufactured and natural weapons for the purposes of bonuses, but that is a class feature of the monk, not a feature of the feat Improved Unarmed Strike, and unarmed strikes are treated as light weapons for the purposes of assigning combat penalties to maneuvers like disarm/twf penalties.

As only the monk's unarmed strikes get treated as natural weapons (for enhancement purposes) the necklace only confers a benefit to monks, or a character who shapeshifts to something that 'has' natural attacks.

Punchbarian cannot use the item as written.

Answerer

2013-01-29, 03:55 PM

As only the monk's unarmed strikes get treated as natural weapons (for enhancement purposes) the necklace only confers a benefit to monks, or a character who shapeshifts to something that 'has' natural attacks.

Punchbarian cannot use the item as written.
False. Only a Monk's unarmed strikes get treated as manufactured weapons (a term that WotC irritatingly abbreviates to "weapons" at times), but all unarmed strikes may be targeted by effects and spells that affect natural weapons. See magic fang and magic weapon.

Phelix-Mu

2013-01-29, 07:27 PM

I believe that the "Table 7-5: Weapons" PHB, page 116, has unarmed strike listed under what weapons are Simple Weapons. Hard to quote, but it does seem to be there. Simple weapon proficiency should grant everything on that list, but I guess text over table?

Just checked. The text for Simple Weapon Proficiency feat in the PHB seems to reference Table 7-5. Ergo unarmed strike is a simple weapon. This seems to imply that it is a weapon.

DISCUSS.

Answerer

2013-01-29, 07:34 PM

Mato

2013-01-30, 05:01 PM

Just checked. The text for Simple Weapon Proficiency feat in the PHB seems to reference Table 7-5. Ergo unarmed strike is a simple weapon. This seems to imply that it is a weapon.

DISCUSS.

Natural Weapons
Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.

UNARMED ATTACKS
Striking with punches and kicks is like attacking with a melee weapon, except that such attacks usually provoke anattack of opportunity from the foe you attack, provided that opponent is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe. An unarmed creature can’t make attacks of opportunity.

Natural Weapons
A creature that has a natural weapon, such as a claw or slam,
is considered armed. It can make unarmed attacks, but it can’t
use its natural weapons as if they were unarmed attacks, nor can it apply abilities that affect only unarmed attacks to its natural weapons.

“Armed” Unarmed Attacks
Sometimes a creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character who has the Improved Unarmed
Strike feat, and a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell all count as armed. Being armed in this way counts for both offense and defense. So a creature armed in this way can make attacks of opportunity, and such a creaturedoesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity when attacking.(The act of casting a spell provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.)

Unarmed Strikes and Natural Weaponry
Before we move on, it's worth pointing out that a character making an unarmed attack, even with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, does not have natural weapons. Nor is a natural weapon a substitute for the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.

Raise your hand if you think table trumps detailed text... And move your mouse to click on and read the Errata/FAQ which proves otherwise.