My Party Is Full But I Still Need A Character

[SleepyShadow]

So, in a rare twist, I am not the DM for my group (be still my beating heart!). Normally, this would be a fantastic opportunity to play one of the many characters I have been wanting to use. However, the group has recently become much larger than in the past, and I am facing a strange dilemma.

Every conceivable role in the party is full.

I'm asking for advice on what I can do to assist the party without stepping on the toes of someone else. Here is the party as it stands:


A Wild Elf Ranger/Rogue specialized in archery.
A Feral Half-Minotaur Dragonborn Warforged Fighter/War Hulk.
A Savage Bard/Ur-Priest.
A Lesser Aasimar Paladin/Battle Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion.
A Focused Transmuter/Cloistered Cleric/Mystic Theurge.


I am at a loss as to how I can meaningfully contribute to the group without stepping on someone's toes. Any advice would be really appreciated.

Thank you.

[Khedrac]

From the look of this it should be in the D&D 3/3.5/3.P sub-forum but assuming so here goes.

Backing someone up is not necessarily stepping on their toes, but what can't they do?

You have no straight fighter - though the sorcadin should be good - how about a trip build or something like that? - will just make life easier for the sorcadin.

The bard is a nice "boost" character - but Marshal/Dragon Disciple Auras should stack with his boosts.

Also, look at the MT - what buffs is he handing out? You could build a buffing wizard or cleric round those he does not use.

Oh yes, what's a Paladin doing in the same party as an Ur-priest? Sounds like he will soon be an ex-paladin.

[ghost_warlock]

Why not Zoidberg Factotum?

[Sith_Happens]

The main caster slot appears to be open (no, the Theurge doesn't count, except maybe if he's using an early entry trick).

[Morph Bark]

The Bard/Ur-Priest, Cleric/Transmuter and Sorcerer likely have a lot covered between them in spells, but you can try to find out what they haven't got covered. The Sorcerer is a gish, so likely focuses on self-buffs (otherwise Abjurant Champion will be sad), so you need not worry about him. All of them aren't fully into a single caster class, so going full caster could be a good idea. Try to find out what schools the Transmuter has banned, you could specialize in those. If you have access to Tome of Magic, you could make a Specialist Wizard/Anima Mage. You wouldn't even lose caster levels as you can enter it just find with the Bind Vestige feat.

The Rogue/Ranger likely has got a lot of skills covered, but maybe there are some that the party still hasn't covered yet? Some Knowledges are often left out, and some Crafts like Alchemy or Poison can be incredibly handy in a party.

Overall, I think melee is covered well by the gish and War Hulk, but a 50-50 melee-ranged split ain't a bad idea, if you want to go for that. Do you have access to Tome of Battle?

A second Bard is also not a bad idea. You could focus more on Inspire Courage and optimize it to hell and back. Pick a different type of Inspire Courage than the other Bard and you'll be good to go.

[nedz]

Another scout to work with the Ranger/Rogue — something like a Scout/Warlock perhaps ?

A arcanist specialising in Illusions or Conjurations ?

Er, there is no Druid — so there's a whole spell list open. Since you don't want to step on other people's toes though, you could try a Spirit Shaman ?

[Morph Bark]

By the way, what houserules are in place? I notice that the Warforged is Feral, which is an inherited template iirc, so a Warforged couldn't have it. (There should also be some creature types listed it can only be applied to.) And War Hulk requires Large size. :smallconfused:

[Iku Rex]

Looks to me like an arcane blaster would be appropriate.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

It looks like the Pun-Pun slot is open.

What? :smalltongue:

[Yora]

Looks to me like an arcane blaster would be appropriate.
You can never have too much firepower.

Now having two experts in Disable Device and Open Lock, two diviners, two trackers, or two negotiators would be a problem as only one of them can use their abilities on the same obstacle.
But warriors and offensive spellcasters never get in each others way. They can attack the same target at the same time, and quite often there are more enemies than PCs in a given encounter, so their suplement each other well. Even battlefield control spellcasters don't get into conflict with each other and can be an incredible boost of power to the party if they work well together and coordinate their spell selection.

The Ranger/Rogue is an archer, so he will probably want to be the guy who does awesome trick shots.
But that still leaves the tasks of scouting and Traps/Locks. He probably won't be doing both, so you could make either a skill monkey rogue, or an assassin type rogue who takes out sentries quietly and steals keys and the like.

[Friv]

Knowledge guy?

Savage bard is probably not rocking the knowledges, so take a divination-focused wizard who can't transmute, give him some evocation to blaster-support the others.

Or you can just be an artificer and call it a day.

[Jay R]

Nobody ever got upset at another fireball thrown at the enemy.

[SleepyShadow]

@Khedrac: I am pretty sure Fighter/War Hulk is a good primary melee. Also, the Paladin (and half the others) is recent addition to the party as a replacement for a dead character. She wanted an excuse to kill the Ur-Priest, since he and the War Hulk got everyone else killed.

@Sith_Happens: Yes, the DM allowed early entry via Precocious Apprentice.

@Morph Bark: Sorry, I forgot to mention that the Warforged is also a Half-Minotaur. The DM has been allowing him to take templates as he has been leveling up, house ruling it as "warforged body modifications".


Thanks for the advice, everyone. I had been so concerned about not stepping on the other party members that I totally forgot "Hey, more DPS is 'kay". :smallbiggrin:

[Asheram]

How about a psion (Telepath) for some more mindaltering shenanigans?
Perhaps a Beguiler? Paladin sound nice but I think you need more diplomancer in the group.

[Yogibear41]

@Morph Bark: Sorry, I forgot to mention that the Warforged is also a Half-Minotaur. The DM has been allowing him to take templates as he has been leveling up, house ruling it as "warforged body modifications".


So it was born half minotaur and started incorporating mechanical parts? or was it created as a warforged and started replacing itself with organic matter?

Also is half the party good and half the party evil? I bet that will make for an interesting future ha ha

When in doubt pick something rediculous and awesome. Maybe a ghost or a dragon or a dragon ghost!

[prufock]

Why not Zoidberg Factotum?

Seconded. Factotum will allow you to pretty much do a little bit of everything, and some neat tricks that the others may not have covered. You'll fill any role in a pinch when the others are unavailable or incapacitated. Option to take some levels in Chameleon, but it's not necessary, really.

[Doxkid]

Alright so that's two dedicated melees, two dedicated casters, and an archer. Under that you have arcane buffs, divide buffs, songs, Arcane/divine general magic, archery and a melee.

Although the Skill role seems pretty open, most of your party should be able to combine skills to cover their normal needs. Arcane nuker, Divine nuker and the Heavy CC roles are all open, so you might want to look into one of those.

A blaster sorc, Mailman wizard, Warlock or Warmage should be fine there.

[Morph Bark]

A Warmage/Anima Mage would certainly do great in this set-up.

[dspeyer]

I don't see a party face, unless the savage bard has built that way.

Also, the arcane is a little limited. You have one with only 2nd level spells, one with almost exclusively self-buffs, and one who's three levels behind and has banned three schools.

Depending on what those banned schools are, beguiler or psion(telepath) might handle both needs. Remember that psionic powers are more flexible than spells, so a psion can do a lot of things.

[Gotterdammerung]

Play an infinite power points psion and use the "soul crystal" power from magic of incarnum to essentially turn each of your party members into psions of your lvl on top of what they already do.

Choose powers that enhance and combo with their existing capabilities to cover weaknesses and/or create awesome powerful comboes when you give them soul crystals.

If you want to really be broke use spell to power erudite instead of psion.

[Talderas]

I recommend.

Bard
Truenamer
Dread Necromancer

[SleepyShadow]

I was thinking Fochlucan Lyrist to cover Party Face/CC/Divine Blaster. Think that would work well?

@dspeyer: He banned Evocation, Enchantment, and Necromancy.

[Asheram]

Otherwise since we have pretty powerful guys in the party...

Psion (Telepath)/Thrallherd
Expanded Knowedge: Astral construct.

You don't need to fight at all.

[Randomguy]

Beguiler (maybe with one level of mindbender). You've got 2 half sneaky people 3 half arcane casters, but your arcane magic will be stronger than the bards, the gish probably won't have many illusions or enchantments, and the transmuter probably banned enchantments, so you'll fill that role decently.
Any of the fixed list casters should be fine, actually, since they all cover areas that are only partially covered by the other party members.
Warlock and DFA might also be decent by adding utility and blasting.

A lockdown tripper build would probably also help in melee, since the existing melee characters are probably going for damage and not battlefield control. I heard that factotums make good trippers, so you could try a trip specialized fighter/factotum.
Factotum into chameleon would also be fun, since you could fill whichever role needed filling on a particular day.

Artificers are always useful and welcome to just about any party. A druid or wu-jen would also be fun, since you get access to some spells no one else in the party has.

A hexblade/paladin of slaughter/blackguard debuffer would help the casters. This build could also possibly be a tripper.

[mregecko]

I'd do:

Focused Summoner
Druid (could be summoner or wildshape focused, or both... it's a druid)
Dragonfire Adept (some fun battlefield control options for ya)

Edit: forgot seconding Artificer. I was one in a completely tricked-out group, and they still loved me bc I made whatever they wanted for cheap.

[F.H. Zebedee]

I'm leaning towards Party Face as well. I think that's a niche that will need filling. It's your call on how to go about it, but it seems that the social-skill niche (Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, etc.) is the least filled in your party, bar an odd build somewhere in there (The sorcadin probably has substantial charisma, but I don't think he'd have many skills free)

Classes that bear mentioning:
-Beguiler (If you're going face, go face all the way!)
-Marshall (Nobody minds a buff)
-Cleric with Mind and Trickery Domains (Face and Healer, basically running support all fight, and shining in non-combat)
-Artificer (To echo everybody else, artificers are well loved in any group)

So, yeah, general advice; let the rest of the group shine where they can, and pick a flexible build that can help everybody and move to fill whatever niches you find unfilled.

[Pickford]

What level are you starting at? (are these just the end-goal builds or starting?)

How about a Transmuter/Master Transmogrifist? (MT from Complete Arcane pg. 51)

Then you can do whatever the party 'needs' you to do. Plus it provides the opportunity for some great roleplay moments, surprising the characters because they'll never really know who you are.

Alternatively, a Druid or Wu-Jen might be fun since the Ranger likely wouldn't even have 4th level spells if he's dual-classed.

[Shining Wrath]

Swordsage from Tome Of Battle gives you lightweight fighter (3/4 BAB, D8 HD) plus ... stuff. You get lots of maneuvers and therefore can go different ways.

The Artificer can be a good skill monkey and also fill the role of "supplier of kewl l3wt, cheap" to everyone else, plus some basic arcane caster stuff.

You've got healers, but maybe not a HEALER. Straight cleric?

If I were you, I think I'd go Artificer. You can't be stepping on people's toes when what you are doing is making the stuff that makes them better.

[winter92]

I'm inclined to agree with the idea that a face/multi-roll player would be fitting here, but I'd like to offer up a class I haven't seen mentioned. Binders can do just about anything, from sneaking and lockpicking to face to various spell/breath weapons (and you can get some summon monster going if your arcane caster doesn't feel like it). There's lots of room for roleplaying, you can add a bit to the Urpriest/Palandin tension, and you'll be able to pick a new role every day or half-day as you progress.

[killem2]

I think a tripper expert here would be really cool, I am currently enjoying my focused summoner (you could ban all the schools that the other focused person DIDN'T ban), and you could also go into the something like a poison expert if the dm doesn't deem it evil.

I also think a smooth talking face diplomacy master would be something sweet.

A beastmaster would be fun too.

[Jallorn]

I'm going to +1 the Factotum/Binder.

Actually, if you're at all interested in the Chameleon PRC, I'd recommend Binder as the base class over Factotum. I find that there isn't really a good time when Chameleon is clearly a better choice than more levels of Factotum, since they basically do the same thing in different ways. A Binder, while versatile, does something very different, and you can't invalidate the levels you already have with levels of Chameleon, because it's a well designed class where even the low level Vestiges are useful until well into late game.

[Zilzmaer]

I find myself loving Shadowcraft Mage, from RoS. It would let you be a focused blaster, summoner, and controller while still being a good face if you go in as Beguiler or Sorcerer.

[Deadline]

A Bard/Sublime Chord who uses Dragonfire Inspiration and otherwise acts as a GOD wizard (Or act as the primary arcanist in the party)?

Maybe play something out of Tome of Battle?

[Piggy Knowles]

Have you looked into the Weekly Optimization Series on the WotC boards that Tempest Stormwind & Co put on? There are some excellent build ideas there.

Some of my favorites include...


Wizsassin (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29138521/) (Illumian Wizard 5/Assassin 3/Ultimate Magus 10/Unseen Seer 2, ends with 9th-level wizard spells, 4th-level assassin spells, and with Persistent Hunter's Eye has +10d6 sneak attack, plus a lot of other neat tricks up its sleeves)

Ashardalon Reborn (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29098007/) (Totemist 6/Binder 7/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5/Scion of Dantalion 1/Necrocarnate 1, and either a Silverbrow Human with a major demon bloodline or an Azurin with a red dragon bloodline, recreates Ashardalon from Sunless Citadel and is a melee monster/debuffer/fear engine)

Evasion Tank (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29395413) (Human, Monk 2/Fighter 2/Swordsage 2/Warblade 9/Master of Nine 5, a variation on the theme of a "tank" that works on completely evading and denying hits, rather than soaking up damage or cranking up AC)

[TopCheese]

Piggy K is on to something here. (hmm sounds like a Rap name or twitter handle...I like it.)

Binder

This way you will never overshadow anyone, always be useful, and you can change up your style whenever you want.

Day one: You can be a blaster (lightning that auto hits? mwuahahahaha)

Day two: You can help scout

Day three: Dex based melee guy who can slice n dice!

Day four: Oh! You have multiple Vestiges now... Awesome >:D

Also with this you can be the out of battle healer for the party and still contribute. You won't be tier 2 (well you could with online vestiges) but you won't be completely useless either.

(Do note that I'm used to hearing "Putting Piggy on the ground"... referring to dropping a football... I now will always associate the name "Piggy Knowles" with football)

[Wise Green Bean]

Your only thing that even approaches skill monkey is the rogue/ranger. That's bound to leave some major things unaccounted for. I'm behind what people have been saying about factotums. They make good trippers(brains over brawn gives you INT to trip checks), and whatever the rogue doesn't have covered, you can take care of. Also, factotums are the go-to class for filling in the gaps, so really, no matter what, you can remain useful and find a niche or two or three(They're the most versatile guys south of tier 1, sometimes even better).

[Arcanist]

Hmm... Factotum/Chameleon seems like it would fit nicely into your group. As your DM if you can add in Psionic Progression (Erudite) and Maneuver progression (Warblade) and there you have it! You are a Red Mage :smallsmile:

[SleepyShadow]

Thanks for all the help, everyone. It's really been great to get so much feedback for this. By the sounds of it, I think Factotum would be the best choice here, though Binder is definitely a close second.

[8wGremlin]

Sha'ir/Binder/Anima Mage is very effective as a party face as well as a strong spell caster...

[dspeyer]

@dspeyer: He banned Evocation, Enchantment, and Necromancy.

In that case, psion(telepath) is looking like a really good idea. Psions are great at blasting, mind-meddling and (with one feat) minionmancy. And an int 18 human psion can max out bluff, diplomacy, gather information, sense motive, concentration, psicraft and knowledge(psionics).

[jedipilot24]

Either Factotum/Chameleon or a Dragon Shaman.