How to Kill Gods?

[Vaz]

After a slight off-topic diversion in a thread, I got interested in killing gods, considering they instantly know about an event concerning them at least a week in advance so can prepare for it.

So, how would you go about it?

Incantatrix for Persisted Time Stop, Teleport Through Time back to a period before the God is born, then proceed to craft up to your HD in Contingency spells designed to kill the means in which the god is born which trigger as soon as the Time Stop ends; so earthquakes to bring down the buildings, apocalypse' from the sky, avalanches, etc.

This has limitations; notable if the God is not "Ascended" and is instead born to gods; they are likely to have the protection involved.

However, assume like all good fairy stories, that you become a god by your own means, from being a mortal individual. Whether you're granted that divinity by another god, you press the big red button on the mcguffin, or that you're simply that good you get a Divine Rank. Assume that they've got at least 11 Divine Ranks, unless you have a trick which works on even higher Divine Ranks. This can include epic, (and epic spellcasting, but you lose Brownie Points if it's not an existing spell in the ELH), 3rd Party if you so wish (again lose Brownie Points), but I'd prefer if you didn't use Divine Ranks to achieve the effect as that's sort of cheating.

"How did you defeat a god?"
"Oh, I became a bigger god."
"---."

Go, go, and go.

[Slipperychicken]

I'll just leave this here and call it a day. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12959325&postcount=115)

Works on just about any god, involves Epic Spellcasting (origin of species), does not require gaining divine ranks

[Aharon]

Also relies on the existence of Aleaxes, a decision which is in DM territory (info (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14559270&postcount=35)).

[Zubrowka74]

Timetravel to Faerun during the Time of Trouble.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually, only greater gods immediately know of future events concerning their portfolio. Any intermediate or lesser god is just a particularly powerful outsider that you can take down if you can muster up the HP damage.

[Elderand]

Should you not feel entirely comfortable with your chances of killing a god directly, remember that in quite a few settings, gods need prayers to survive.

Can't kill the god ? Enact a genocide on his followers

[Urpriest]

You can't Persist Time Stop, the duration is in apparent time, not real time.

[D_Lord]

Get an Elder Evil. There is one in the book, that goal is to kill them all, and if it wasn't summoned in two pieces it would have. Then there their Malefic properties which make it so even if it is part of the portfolio they can't see it coming.

[Arcanist]

Get an Elder Evil. There is one in the book, that goal is to kill them all, and if it wasn't summoned in two pieces it would have. Then there their Malefic properties which make it so even if it is part of the portfolio they can't see it coming.

That also kills you... It's like releasing the Snarl :smallconfused:

[AuraTwilight]

Go Pun-Pun.

More seriously, trick a Dabus into worshiping the deity you want dead. The Lady of Pain will do the rest.

[Arcanist]

More seriously, trick a Dabus into worshiping the deity you want dead. The Lady of Pain will do the rest.

Oh god, this is the most reasonable use of Diplomacy I've ever seen in my life. Convince someone to worship someone else...

[TuggyNE]

More seriously, trick a Dabus into worshiping the deity you want dead. The Lady of Pain will do the rest.

This is... brutally ingenious. Well played.

[Vaz]

You can't Persist Time Stop, the duration is in apparent time, not real time.

Where does it state that it can't be persisted? Its duration is d4+1 rounds, regardless of apparent time, it meets the requirements it's a none-Instantaneous spell with a fixed/personal range, and neither is its effect discharged.

Edit' Meant to say rounds, getting tired now, sorry!

[Kelb_Panthera]

its 1d4 +1 rounds and I believe it's in the errata. I can't check that though, since I can't open PDF's.

[Vaz]

I've just checked CA and PHB errata - no mention in either of Time Stop or Persist.

[Slipperychicken]

More seriously, trick a Dabus into worshiping the deity you want dead. The Lady of Pain will do the rest.

Now you just need to find some way to do it without pissing the Lady off yourself. If she'll kill a God for being worshiped by her Dabus, she'll kill you (or worse) for making it happen.

[Urpriest]

Where does it state that it can't be persisted? Its duration is d4+1 rounds, regardless of apparent time, it meets the requirements it's a none-Instantaneous spell with a fixed/personal range, and neither is its effect discharged.

Edit' Meant to say rounds, getting tired now, sorry!

It's duration is


Duration: 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text

Persistent Spell reads


Spells with a fixed or personal range can have their duration increased to 24 hours.

When you apply Persistent Spell to Time Stop, its duration goes from 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time) to 24 hours, dropping the mention of apparent time. Since operating in apparent time is the only benefit of the spell, converting the duration to actual time means you now have 24 hours in which you act just as fast as everyone else, rather than 1d4+1 extra rounds. So you can Persist it, but then it stops doing anything.

[AuraTwilight]

Now you just need to find some way to do it without pissing the Lady off yourself. If she'll kill a God for being worshiped by her Dabus, she'll kill you (or worse) for making it happen.

With my mind-rapingly high levels of Diplomacy, I convince someone to go to Sigil and do it for me. Duhhhh.

[Endarire]

"The best way to kill a god is to have someone else do it for you (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12959325&postcount=115)." -Princess Mononoke

[Vaz]

It's duration is



Persistent Spell reads



When you apply Persistent Spell to Time Stop, its duration goes from 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time) to 24 hours, dropping the mention of apparent time. Since operating in apparent time is the only benefit of the spell, converting the duration to actual time means you now have 24 hours in which you act just as fast as everyone else, rather than 1d4+1 extra rounds. So you can Persist it, but then it stops doing anything.
I don't mean to be rude, but is there anything to support this claim, or is this your interpretation?

The period of time changes, regardless of whether it's apparent.

[Tr011]

I'm not so sure why everyone makes such a big deal out of killing a god.
You don't need to be pun-pun or some sort of uber-god yourself.

If you are just a party of, let's say, 4 members, each level 19 to 21 with each one more than a million gold worth of items and some moderate optimization, you should be able to take down a god.
You don't have to start with the biggest ones and it won't be necessary to time-travel or persist time stops... I think if you start making a plan you will be just fine.

Important first of all, is who is your enemy and what moral limits do you have?
Any plan where the enemy doesn't matter or you don't act inward your alignment wouldn't be epic enough to take care of a god.

Let's say you are not LG and your enemy is a demon lord, you might first to make sure that he doesn't know what you're up to. Get a genesis where most divinations don't work and go there. There you make a plan how you get the demon lord of your choice an opponent. Nothing will make him as vulnerable as a good fight. Since it's a demon lord you can try to trick any other demon lord or great devil into a war with your nemesis. How is up to you - but it's not too hard to find some way. Then you make the war go really bloody. As in bloody as heck. Also, you should make your party stronger meanwhile, maybe by stealing of one of the two combatants some artifacts while making it look like the other combatant did it. Make sure you observe any important action of your nemesis.

Then you go fighting his aspects. I'm not sure how many aspects such a demon lord has, but it shouldn't be more than a dozen. Try to get them all down when he is starting a big offense against his wrong enemy. That will be the time he starts noticing you. If you make now a big move, like getting one of his enemy's aspect to your nemesis' home and get them to fight each other - your job is almost done. Now you only have to finish him.

Make sure to reduce his number of followers the whole time to improve his weakness.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Demon lords aren't gods.

Since most gods are at least 30th level or higher and gain a whole host of immunities and benefits even at rank 0, taking down a god at level 20 is close to impossible unless you pick an atrociously weak excuse for a god, like Imhotep. Doing it at 21 is only possible because epic spellcasting is so incredibly borked.

As long as you're around level 30+ and heavily optimized, taking down an intermediate or lesser ranked deity is just a nasty boss fight.

[Urpriest]

I don't mean to be rude, but is there anything to support this claim, or is this your interpretation?

The period of time changes, regardless of whether it's apparent.

It's the FAQ interpretation. While the FAQ often makes suggestions that are blatantly against the rules, in this case the interpretation makes a certain amount of sense. The rounds that time stop gives you aren't real time, it doesn't make sense for them to be affected by anything that modifies duration.

[Slipperychicken]

"The best way to kill a god is to have someone else do it for you (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12959325&postcount=115)." -Princess Mononoke

I already linked that right after the OP, post #2.


With my mind-rapingly high levels of Diplomacy, I convince someone to go to Sigil and do it for me. Duhhhh.

Yeah... but then you've really stopped playing D&D and delve into the realm of Questgiver: The Delegation.

[Deophaun]

First step is prove that the god exists. Then, once proven, this will actually prove that they don't exist, and they will disappear in a puff of logic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PuffOfLogic).

[Tr011]

Demon lords aren't gods.

Since most gods are at least 30th level or higher and gain a whole host of immunities and benefits even at rank 0, taking down a god at level 20 is close to impossible unless you pick an atrociously weak excuse for a god, like Imhotep. Doing it at 21 is only possible because epic spellcasting is so incredibly borked.

As long as you're around level 30+ and heavily optimized, taking down an intermediate or lesser ranked deity is just a nasty boss fight.

There are demon lords who are also gods.
And what does a god make it better than any other epic creature? For sure, their followers and divine ranks.
The followers are usually not epic and the divine ranks... ok they are heavy but come on... it's just numbers:
AC boost? Any character gets easily a really high AC.
Bonus to saves? Ok, but they don't stack the various modifiers we can
Taking 10 as a lesser god should be ok, but taking 20 as an intermediate one is too heavy, I can see that.
Immunity to polymorphing and that stuff? Ok, a lich got the same.
Immunity to Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage? Nothing a level 18+ character doesn't have.
Immunity to mind-affecting? level 8 spell isn't really impressive.
Immunity to stunning, sleep, paralysis, death effects and disintegration, also banishment, binding, dimensional anchor, dismissal, imprisonment, repulsion, soul bind, temporal stasis, trap the soul, turning... Ok if any of this would have worked it would have been way too easy. It's not CR 3 that we are talking about. But Dimensional Lock does still work, being immune to the anchor is a thing of 10k gp anyways that every optimized char might have.
Energy Immunities... but not to fire, sonic or force? Especially not having fire immunity would be really bad for them.
DR around 45/+4... I'm not sure about that /+4 part, but even if you couldn't afford a GMW 45 isn't out of range.
SR and energy resistance are pretty standard and a SR of 42 is not great. There is a feat to take 10 on caster level checks and a CL of 32 on level 19 is just about knowing Transfer Essence or stacking other sources.

They are not even immune to critical hits!!

If you imagine a well-rounded character at level 19, well optimized and with heavy equipment, and now 4 of them... It should be possible.

Bahamut i.e. only has a fly speed of 300ft (it's kinda bad once you start optimizing your speed), 1.378 hp (even without the manyfang dagger you can take that down), 76 AC (your AC should be at least 10 points higher so he doesn't hit you easily) and once you are immune to cold and his disintegration his offence doesn't look too scary.
You just need a good team with a good battle plan (that has offense, passive defense and active defense) and simply because you can optimize your numbers and got at least ten times his actions you will be able to kill him.

And just to make this one sure: I already killed a CR 36 guy (no god, just CR 36) with two mates at level 10. We had standard WBL and were not even really optimized, but at first he underrestimated us and then we were able to take him down because of a hole in his defense. Just imagine a bunch of kids that take out the incredible hulk because he is way too big, doesn't take kids seriously and they are three.

[AuraTwilight]

Yeah... but then you've really stopped playing D&D and delve into the realm of Questgiver: The Delegation.

No, I'm doing other things while I have my patsy do the dirty work for me, because I'm dungeon-diving and tired of having Priests of Nerull keep buffing all the undead in the damn place or whatever motivated me to take out a deity in the first place.

[Arcanist]

Yeah... but then you've really stopped playing D&D and delve into the realm of Questgiver: The Delegation.

AUGH! Is that from the same company that made Spreadsheets: The Game? Love that game :smalltongue:

[Aharon]

Demon lords aren't gods.

Since most gods are at least 30th level or higher and gain a whole host of immunities and benefits even at rank 0, taking down a god at level 20 is close to impossible unless you pick an atrociously weak excuse for a god, like Imhotep. Doing it at 21 is only possible because epic spellcasting is so incredibly borked.

As long as you're around level 30+ and heavily optimized, taking down an intermediate or lesser ranked deity is just a nasty boss fight.

Gah! This claim is made really often (Imhotep atrociously weak). While he is weak for a god, he still is rather impressive: linky (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20020405).

He has Int 43 and Prismatic Sphere at CL 11 at will. Played anywhere near competence, he knows he is hopelessly outmatched by just about anything around his power level (other gods, elder evils etc.) and will spam Prismatic Spheres around him every few rounds even if he doesn't, for some unimaginable reason, use the below tactic.

He also has True Creation as a spell-like (no XP or material components), so anywhere near the usual assumed TO competence, he should have infinite wealth from creating 11 cu. ft. of gold per level per casting. Infinite gold => Decked out with magic items => Eligible for Sofawall's Cube build or similar high-level, item-reliant tactics.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There are demon lords who are also gods.Name two.

And what does a god make it better than any other epic creature? For sure, their followers and divine ranks.
The followers are usually not epic and the divine ranks... ok they are heavy but come on... it's just numbers:
AC boost? Any character gets easily a really high AC.
Bonus to saves? Ok, but they don't stack the various modifiers we can
Taking 10 as a lesser god should be ok, but taking 20 as an intermediate one is too heavy, I can see that.
Immunity to polymorphing and that stuff? Ok, a lich got the same.
Immunity to Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage? Nothing a level 18+ character doesn't have.
Immunity to mind-affecting? level 8 spell isn't really impressive.
Immunity to stunning, sleep, paralysis, death effects and disintegration, also banishment, binding, dimensional anchor, dismissal, imprisonment, repulsion, soul bind, temporal stasis, trap the soul, turning... Ok if any of this would have worked it would have been way too easy. It's not CR 3 that we are talking about. But Dimensional Lock does still work, being immune to the anchor is a thing of 10k gp anyways that every optimized char might have.
Energy Immunities... but not to fire, sonic or force? Especially not having fire immunity would be really bad for them.
DR around 45/+4... I'm not sure about that /+4 part, but even if you couldn't afford a GMW 45 isn't out of range.
SR and energy resistance are pretty standard and a SR of 42 is not great. There is a feat to take 10 on caster level checks and a CL of 32 on level 19 is just about knowing Transfer Essence or stacking other sources.

They are not even immune to critical hits!!

If you imagine a well-rounded character at level 19, well optimized and with heavy equipment, and now 4 of them... It should be possible.

Bahamut i.e. only has a fly speed of 300ft (it's kinda bad once you start optimizing your speed), 1.378 hp (even without the manyfang dagger you can take that down), 76 AC (your AC should be at least 10 points higher so he doesn't hit you easily) and once you are immune to cold and his disintegration his offence doesn't look too scary.
You just need a good team with a good battle plan (that has offense, passive defense and active defense) and simply because you can optimize your numbers and got at least ten times his actions you will be able to kill him.You're pushing well into TO territory on several of your proposed avenues of attack. Otherwise, how is this a counterpoint?


And just to make this one sure: I already killed a CR 36 guy (no god, just CR 36) with two mates at level 10. We had standard WBL and were not even really optimized, but at first he underrestimated us and then we were able to take him down because of a hole in his defense. Just imagine a bunch of kids that take out the incredible hulk because he is way too big, doesn't take kids seriously and they are three.

So...... you killed a non-god that was very poorly handled by exploiting his incompetence and an obvious weakness. That says something about the difficulty of deicide, if anything does.

[Battleship789]

Alter Reality says hi. All non-epic spells that have a duration should be permanently active on the deity and the deity can cast any non-epic spell as a standard action (no material/XP component, no SR, and works in an AMF. This should also apply to the permanent duration spells, because they should be cast via Alter Reality.) That ability alone makes D&D gods almost impossible to kill.

[Tr011]

Name two.You're pushing well into TO territory on several of your proposed avenues of attack. Otherwise, how is this a counterpoint?

I'm not very familiar with demon lords because I keep messing up a campaign I play with with the standard, I thought Orcus was a god.
Anyways, it's not TO to just stack things as cheap as you can get them.
One example: Imagine you would be playing a caster. Why not just get an item of Natural Armor +5 or Dragonskin (SpC) recast for the whole time? Combine that with Monk's Belt, either Ghostform (SpC) or +5 deflection item, a +8 armor item (at the very least, you could also get a +10 with easy mundane stuff +5 enhancement here), take that untyped +4 bonus to natural armor from the Plated Skin Graft, grab a buckler+5, use reduce person and you end up with an AC of 10+1 (size) +dex +1 dex (from size) +wis +1 (monk belt) + 5 deflection + 8 armor + 9 natural +6 shield, should be when using 10 wisdom and 14 dex a total AC of 53, assuming only a +6 enhancement and +4 inherent bonus to each attribute. Remember that this is the least value you should have, if using Extract Gift (with CL and attribute boosts obv) for a +12 enhancement bonus each, combined with foresight active and a staff of power (DMG), you get another +10 bonus for a total of 63 AC. With some more thinking about it and using of class features or something I'm sure you could get to 86 AC.

Start doing the same with other values, just stacking all possible stuff until you can reach the sky and that god won't look better than anyone in your party.
In example for your party's wizard, don't go human wizard 19 with point blank and stuff, do something powerful like spontaneous divination wizard 5/incantatrix 10/paragnostic apostle 2/loremaster 1/Archmage 1 with Versatile Spellcaster and Uncanny Forethought, maybe Extraordinary Spell Aim or Concentration, some metamagic stuff and you can anything spontaneously in any way you want. With Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability and some equipment for your familiar, it should be as useful in a fight by sharing spells like anyone else in your party.

I'm not sure where the problem for a mid-level optimization party should be with gods, they are by far not meant to be immortal. Your party, on the other hand, might be immortal if you genocide the Githyanki and Astral Project from your demiplane. Because no one can kill or see you in your demiplane if you have read the Plane-chapter of the DMG.

[Vaz]

1; A Deity typically wouldn't even need to hit you.
2; A Deity can just use Wraithstrike to Touch Attack, and as they always roll max, presuming Deity has an attack bonus of around +50, then you'd need a Touch AC of around 91+ to beat his Wraithstrike+Truestrike combination, and that's not including additional boosts to his strength.
3; He could just fight you in an AMF; his spells still work, yours wouldn't.

In regards to a Demiplane; he could still call you. You could Dimensional Lock/Anchor yourself there though, and you could not be called by a Gate.

In regards to the Demiplane being immune to killing/seeing you; it's the first I've heard - have you got a page number?

[ArcturusV]

It seems to me that a lot of these God Killing methods are on kinda shaky ground.

Also I fail to see how "preparing to kill a god, but not actually doing it yet" would fail to trigger a sense designed to detect any threat to it and it's interests (and I'd think trying to kill a god dedicated to X would definitely trigger interest in X sense).

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm not very familiar with demon lords because I keep messing up a campaign I play with with the standard, I thought Orcus was a god.
Anyways, it's not TO to just stack things as cheap as you can get them.
One example: Imagine you would be playing a caster. Why not just get an item of Natural Armor +5 or Dragonskin (SpC) recast for the whole time? Combine that with Monk's Belt, either Ghostform (SpC) or +5 deflection item, a +8 armor item (at the very least, you could also get a +10 with easy mundane stuff +5 enhancement here), take that untyped +4 bonus to natural armor from the Plated Skin Graft, grab a buckler+5, use reduce person and you end up with an AC of 10+1 (size) +dex +1 dex (from size) +wis +1 (monk belt) + 5 deflection + 8 armor + 9 natural +6 shield, should be when using 10 wisdom and 14 dex a total AC of 53, assuming only a +6 enhancement and +4 inherent bonus to each attribute. Remember that this is the least value you should have, if using Extract Gift (with CL and attribute boosts obv) for a +12 enhancement bonus each, combined with foresight active and a staff of power (DMG), you get another +10 bonus for a total of 63 AC. With some more thinking about it and using of class features or something I'm sure you could get to 86 AC.

Start doing the same with other values, just stacking all possible stuff until you can reach the sky and that god won't look better than anyone in your party.
In example for your party's wizard, don't go human wizard 19 with point blank and stuff, do something powerful like spontaneous divination wizard 5/incantatrix 10/paragnostic apostle 2/loremaster 1/Archmage 1 with Versatile Spellcaster and Uncanny Forethought, maybe Extraordinary Spell Aim or Concentration, some metamagic stuff and you can anything spontaneously in any way you want. With Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability and some equipment for your familiar, it should be as useful in a fight by sharing spells like anyone else in your party.

I'm not sure where the problem for a mid-level optimization party should be with gods, they are by far not meant to be immortal. Your party, on the other hand, might be immortal if you genocide the Githyanki and Astral Project from your demiplane. Because no one can kill or see you in your demiplane if you have read the Plane-chapter of the DMG.

First, there're some definite stacking errors there. For example; ghostform makes you incorporeal which outright removes your NA bonus.

Second; how much of your WBL is left after -just- the armor stack you've compiled there? Unless you're using an infinite wealth loop (pure TO) you're simply not going to get all of your numbers that high.

Third, very nearly all of those bonuses can be removed quickly and easily with targetted and area dispels.

Finally, given that host of immunities common to -all- gods (individuals will have a few resistances and immunities of their own) what avenue of attack do you propose exactly?

[Kelb_Panthera]

It seems to me that a lot of these God Killing methods are on kinda shaky ground.

Also I fail to see how "preparing to kill a god, but not actually doing it yet" would fail to trigger a sense designed to detect any threat to it and it's interests (and I'd think trying to kill a god dedicated to X would definitely trigger interest in X sense).

Again, only greater deities can see into the future with portfolio sense. Planning doesn't affect now, only the future.

Deific level also determines the minimum number of creatures that must be affected by the event affecting your portfolio to trigger portfolio sense. Only greater gods get a ping for 1 character being affected. Whether killing a god will have an actual effect on its portfolio beyond who it belongs to, is up in the air since only a DM can actually say (no official word on the matter outside of FR). So even if they could look into the future, it's questionable whether or not intermediate and lesser deities could sense an event that will only affect themselves.

[Fable Wright]

Name two.

Tenebrous and Lolth. Of course, Tenebrous died rather quickly, but they were both deities for a time.

As to the main point, deicide is notoriously hard, and best achieved indirectly. Using the Lady to kill them for you would probably be the best way; either by converting a Dabus to their religion, or somehow bringing them to Sigil (the 'Summon Bigger Fish' method; Pandorym is another favorite weapon to use). You can also use Thought Bottle+Temporal Acceleration+Time Regression to go back in time to before the God was a Greater Deity, and kill them while they're still a Lesser or Intermediate deity without them being aware of your approach, and then hopefully beat them to death with epic level characters (the paradox method). Then there's the methods that Tippy advocates, the 'Become Biggest Fish' method. Otherwise, there's not much you can do about a Greater Deity.

[123456789blaaa]

Well, it won't work against greater dieties (they'll see you coming in advance) but you can bind the Elder Evil Shothragot with GPB and one of two methods which increase the HD limit. He drives gods insane with no save and they can't attack him while being insane.

[Zubrowka74]

Tenebrous and Lolth. Of course, Tenebrous died rather quickly, but they were both deities for a time.

As to the main point, deicide is notoriously hard, and best achieved indirectly. Using the Lady to kill them for you would probably be the best way; either by converting a Dabus to their religion, or somehow bringing them to Sigil (the 'Summon Bigger Fish' method; Pandorym is another favorite weapon to use). You can also use Thought Bottle+Temporal Acceleration+Time Regression to go back in time to before the God was a Greater Deity, and kill them while they're still a Lesser or Intermediate deity without them being aware of your approach, and then hopefully beat them to death with epic level characters (the paradox method). Then there's the methods that Tippy advocates, the 'Become Biggest Fish' method. Otherwise, there's not much you can do about a Greater Deity.

Also Yeenoguh, worshiped by gnolls (1e and up), and Orcus, that had a clergy way back in 1e too. Now with his death and reappearance I'm not sure if he has actual divine rank but a case could be made.

On the devils side, Asmodeus is a god of the PF pantheon.

[Vaz]

It seems to me that a lot of these God Killing methods are on kinda shaky ground.

Also I fail to see how "preparing to kill a god, but not actually doing it yet" would fail to trigger a sense designed to detect any threat to it and it's interests (and I'd think trying to kill a god dedicated to X would definitely trigger interest in X sense).

The initial discussion which started me positing how it would be possible had an Advanced Time Dragon (150HD) as a God; it was quickly told that unless it had Divine Ranks, it would be as vulnerable at 150HD as it was at 50HD.

So, assuming worst case scenario, was that it had maximum Divine Ranks, etc, and assuming it had at least the Time Portfolio, and Dragons Portfolio, you know, being a Time Dragon.

The Mind Rape+Love's Pain chain is not exactly ground-breaking new stuff, but mind-raping *anyone* into believing that a God was her lover, and then casting Love's pain on them repeatedly would result in a God being eventually killed.

However, the God, being of maxed Divine ranks, would have known of the event to kill it nearly 8 months in advance; anything concerning the portfolio of the God (and a God's portfolio obviously includes itself) would be made instantly aware that an event was occurring, and then could use their Remote Sensing to actually view the event occuring.

Well, Remote Sensing does not actually see Invisibility - so you could simply cast Greater Invisibility and be done with it, but Remote Sensing is sensory information - hence a Permanenced True Seeing would allow it to see the Invisibility. As they'd also know that *something* concerning their portfolio was happening at X location (but not what was happening), and again, assuming worst case scenario, that they spent the Standard Action to actually view the situation, what can be done?

A 150HD Dragon would have insane Spot and Search checks, and True Seeing sees Invisible, while remote sensing is not fooled by Nondetection et al. It wouldn't matter if you were Disguised or not - it wouldn't matter what you were. So, there's that to bypass. Mind Blank might work, but it's arguable.

Remote Sensing into the future is screwy RAW; it's the whole "predetermined" thing - if it can see the future, then that future must still occur, or else it wouldn't occur if you did anything about it. If a God saw the future and was aware of an event occuring 30 weeks into the future, he would see people plotting against him. This would give him 30 weeks to prepare himself for the coming battle. He could just remote sense them, and then rather than spend each day every day recruiting an entire army to stop them when they *do* come 30 weeks later, he could kill them in the present; but then if they're killed in the present, how can they be plotting to kill him in the future? Perhaps they were Raised from the dead inside the next 30 weeks, and realising who it was killing them, they turned round to attack the God 30 weeks from the time when he first sensed them; at which point he's changed nothing.

It's a right odd fish of an ability that probably was thought no more about than someone sitting at a desk trying to think up another hundred more words to write so they didn't have to commission yet more artwork 20 minutes before deadline.

However, the ability is there, so how would you go about it?

Using Archmage to SLA Wu Jen Body Outside Body twice a day, and using Incantatrix to Persist each clone for 24 hours, with each of the Clones doing precisely the same.

Assuming a CL of around 40, that's 8 clones each, and within 14 rounds (I only got that far before I broke Excel), I was at nearly 25 Billion clones of myself; there are 14,400 rounds within a day - go figure stupid high number. Design an epic spell which requires 24 hours worth of clones tributing their spell slot.

First of all, make a spell that increases the Effective Caster Level of it by the Participants (+25B after 14 rounds, I have 14,400 at least). Use this base to leapfrog off an Invisibility spell; unless of course the deity has a Caster Level of their Epic True Seeing in excess of 14,400 rounds of an SLA 2/day 24 Hour long Clones x8 (when only 14 rounds was 25 Billion), I'm going to be able to be Invisible. The spellcraft DC would be lowered by each ritual participant giving up an Epic Spellcasting slot (after 14 rounds, that's what -425 Billion on the spellcraft DC?), and make myself Invisible to True Seeing, and even epic Divinations.

As it's an Instantaneous Spell, this affects me utterly. I could then start epic spellcasting stupidly powerful spells, ways, and means of bypassing the God, or defeating it; considering that unless his AMF can bypass me Epic Spellcrafting with Caster Levels in the region of Infinity and Beyond, then he's dead.

[Elderand]

Well, it won't work against greater dieties (they'll see you coming in advance) but you can bind the Elder Evil Shothragot with GPB and one of two methods which increase the HD limit. He drives gods insane with no save and they can't attack him while being insane.

Except the insanity force them to attack the closest creature, which has a good chance to be the caster.

[Vaz]

If you've not got a Mindraped Simulacrum doing that by the time you're trying to kill gods, you're doing it wrong.

[Elderand]

My point wasn't that it was a bad idea, just that it take more preparation than just greater planar binding an elder evil to beat a god

[123456789blaaa]

Except the insanity force them to attack the closest creature, which has a good chance to be the caster.

Why? If the caster wants to come along for some reason, they just have to summon a monster or something (bring along a few ants maybe?)

[winter92]

No, I'm doing other things while I have my patsy do the dirty work for me, because I'm dungeon-diving and tired of having Priests of Nerull keep buffing all the undead in the damn place or whatever motivated me to take out a deity in the first place.

I absolutely love how effective, yet over-the-top this reaction is. I'm picturing the party making this decision:
"These priests are really annoying... How can we make them stop buffing without having to kill them all...?"
"Well... let's just go murder the god that empowers them, then come clear the dungeon!"
"Right on!"

[AuraTwilight]

Can you believe that's basically how D&D goes when I play?

Not to say I'm a munchkin or power gamer but I feel like I have to **** up the cosmic status quo atleast once to call it a successful campaign.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If anyone's interested I did come up with what I feel is a plausible explanation for a greater deity's ability to see the future. It's basically a spin on the theory possited by, I think, Einstein; that if you could accurately measure the position and velocity of every atom in the universe you could predict the future from the point of measurement to the end of time.

Look at the ridiculous scope of a greater deity's senses. They can percieve anything within 16 or more miles of themselves and up to 20 other places wherein there is one of their worshipers, shrines, any item or creature sacred to them, or simply the echo of their name as long as it's been spoken in the last hour, with any of their 5 or more senses as though it was close enough to touch. Their spot and listen modifiers are often high enough that even an optimized, non-epic sneak couldn't evade them even if he knew where the center of their line of effect area was. This is coupled with knowledge of anything that effects their portfolio supernaturally imparted in real time, allowing them to focus these astonishing senses on the location of such events as they occur.

Take a moment and think about just how much information that is.

Now consider the minds of such beings. Hardly any of them has a mental ability under 20 and most have one of the three over 30. The charisma doesn't mean much, but that's alot of mental might processing that plethora of information in the forms of wisdom and intelligence.

Therefore, I possit that a greater deity's ability to read the future is simply a matter of their subconcious mind processing all of that information and allowing them to make stunningly accurate predictions of events yet to occur. It's not perfect, however, so these predictions, while normally uncanny, can be rendered inaccurate by determined parties actively trying to alter the predicted future.

This theory allows gods to have their ability to see the future without forcing that future to be predertemined.

[Chess435]

I just rule that the visions are simply an image of what will happen iff the deity does nothing to intervene, sort of like foresight, but dialed up to 9001.

[ArcturusV]

The problem I see with the Love's Pain thing is as follows. And my Rules Fu is weak enough I'm not sure if it necessarily IS a problem. But it seems like two obvious stumbling blocks.

But deities are immune to AMFs. So why would they not have one up, or at least manifest one after the first bolt hit them though Love's Pain, as AMF stops the bolts cold and the deity in question isn't effected by them at all.

Can you really consider them "dearest loved one" if it's one sided via mindrape? Typically that's an emotion that really needs to be reciprocated to be considered Love, otherwise it's just infatuation. Least by most people's definitions I'd think.

[The LOBster]

You know, if you travel back in time and kill a god while its being created... Wouldn't that just make an Atropal? :smalleek:

[Kelb_Panthera]

You know, if you travel back in time and kill a god while its being created... Wouldn't that just make an Atropal? :smalleek:

O_o did...... did you just invoke the grandfather paradox on a god?........... *clutches head* owwwwwww...... my brain.....

[Slipperychicken]

O_o did...... did you just invoke the grandfather paradox on a god?........... *clutches head* owwwwwww...... my brain.....

Maybe doing that would just cause a much more fearsome time-themed horror to be created. That seems to be the universe's default: If it doesn't know what to do, it turns the problem into a big scary monster that wants to destroy all our nice things, and which can be handily sorted out by our ever-popular and lovely teams of muderhobo-adventurers, the PCs.

[Tr011]

Second; how much of your WBL is left after -just- the armor stack you've compiled there? Unless you're using an infinite wealth loop (pure TO) you're simply not going to get all of your numbers that high.
There's a big difference between having standard WBL (580k gp at lvl 19) and having infinite money. In my current group we have almost 1.2million gp worth of equipment each and are level 19, so double the WBL. With that kind of money you can afford the named AC with ease, especially if you got some kind of crafter in your group.


Third, very nearly all of those bonuses can be removed quickly and easily with targetted and area dispels.
You have to target dispel the character or the magic item. Assuming no chain spell metamagic, the character himself has to be the target of a dispel spell because an area dispel would only take away one buff. You can have a ring of counterspells or a high caster level + ring of enduring arcana or a spellblade weapon. Against level 9 spells like Reaving Dispel or Mordekainen's Disjunction, let's just say you shouldn't be targeted by level 9 spells in the first place. There are lots of ways to ensure not to randomly get some 9s in your face, in example keep an eye on any hostile level 17+ caster in sight, buy a ring of spell-battle for emergencies and ready actions to counter or escaping.[/quote]


Finally, given that host of immunities common to -all- gods (individuals will have a few resistances and immunities of their own) what avenue of attack do you propose exactly?
Maybe an archer with the splitting and force enchantment could deal some damage. Immunities gained by something else than divine ranks versus precision damage can be got around and with rapid shot and haste you should have 12+ attacks per full attack. Force ignores DR and an average damage per attack of 30+ without precise damage or 60+ with precise damage is easy to get by, so just by that guy making a couple of full attacks the enemy would be dead. Of course he won't be able to simply full attack all the time, but I mean that's just one person of a party. Remember also, that making several full attacks in one round as one person is nowhere near impossible.

[tilionvevfet]

If all else fails, simply create an epic spell that does exactly what you want in zero time by increasing the number of spell slots from other spellcasters to reduce the spellcraft DC to 0. Thus it takes no time, no money, and you can achieve it by gate-chaining appropriate monsters. Cheesy as all get out, but that is Epic Spellcasting. :smallsigh:

[Aharon]

@tilion
That's a TO solution assuming a lenient DM. As the OP wants to do this in an actual game, it is completely DM-dependent (as part of their creation, epic spells need DM-approval).

[Clistenes]

Question: WHAT are your gods?

Greyhawk gods seem to be very powerful outsiders/spirits that draw power from worship, and there can be more than one god of death, more than one god of magic, more than one god of light, more than one god of war...etc. They are gods of stuff, but they doesn't have full control over that stuff, they are just good manipulating it.

Also, typically there is little difference between epic characters, archfiends and demigods in Greyhawk, they are all basically in the same leage (3.5 ed changed that a little).

Forgotten Realms gods seem to be the metaphysical incarnation of their portafolios...the God of War IS War, the Goddess of Magic IS Magic, the God of Justice IS Justice, with all the advantages and drawbacks it entails. You kill or depower the goddess of magic, and magic is f*cked (happened twice). You become the god of Madness and Illusions, and you become delusional and mad. Everytime you commit a murder, the God of Murder becomes stronger, and everytime a war is fought, the God of War becomes stronger.

Killing a god in Greyhawk (at least a demigod or a lesser god) entails becoming an epic caster and creating something similar to Garyx's Godtrap.

Killing a god in Faerun seems impossible unless you are a god yourself, have godly help or the god is severely weakened (Times of Troubles).

EDITED to correct grammar mistakes.

[Vaz]

Non-specific, assuming created and possibly played by a Player, although in character.

So, a reasonable sense of optimization, with intelligent playing, while still holding true to its fluff without being Pun Pun. For example, Imhotep being comparatively weak-sauce is a fairly easy example of taking one down, but what about some of the more threatening ones (as a guideline), before going into some TO horror.

The initial case was an assumed Greater Deity based off 150 HD worth of Advanced Time Dragon, although I'm open to any others.

[Aharon]

@Vaz
What do you consider reasonable optimization? You said above that WBL is not a factor - is it for the god in question? => See my post about Imhotep. If wealth is no issue, anybody can be arbitrarily powerful. A commoner 1 with sufficient wealth is superior to a wizard 20 limited to WBL.

[Asta Kask]

Get a bigger, meaner God to do it. Diplomacy.

[Vaz]

@Vaz
What do you consider reasonable optimization? You said above that WBL is not a factor - is it for the god in question? => See my post about Imhotep. If wealth is no issue, anybody can be arbitrarily powerful.
Typically along the standard of Iron Chef style; as if a DM was watching over. Making an Epic spell which has a DC to beat the gods save (as I showed using the Persisted Body Outside Body SLA chain) by Infinite would be a no-no.


A commoner 1 with sufficient wealth is superior to a wizard 20 limited to WBL.
I'd be interested to see this occuring without any DM reliant features, such as access to artefacts, etc.

A Wizard 20 limited to WBL could simply break WBL by Wall of Salt et al, so it wouldn't be limited to WBL, prior to that.

In my eyes, WBL is an arbitrary figure attached by WotC to not make any newcoming characters more powerful than they should be. I don't like it, and during a campaign, I'd be able to make more money than what WBL gives.

[Aharon]

Typically along the standard of Iron Chef style; as if a DM was watching over. Making an Epic spell which has a DC to beat the gods save (as I showed using the Persisted Body Outside Body SLA chain) by Infinite would be a no-no.


That's a bit vague, but I'll take a look at Iron Chef.


I'd be interested to see this occuring without any DM reliant features, such as access to artefacts, etc.


Sofawall's Cube (Stronghold Builder's Guide for a very hard to penetrate defense, spellclocks for offense), add stuff to your taste (Belt of Magnificence+Google for better stats, lots of spellblades, Minor Schemas of every spell, lots and lots of minor schemas of metamagic item(persistent spell),...

Basically, almost any ability in the game can be had in item form, and if you are sufficiently careful, your stuff will not be disjoined.


A Wizard 20 limited to WBL could simply break WBL by Wall of Salt et al, so it wouldn't be limited to WBL, prior to that. In my eyes, WBL is an arbitrary figure attached by WotC to not make any newcoming characters more powerful than they should be. I don't like it, and during a campaign, I'd be able to make more money than what WBL gives.

It is an arbitrary figure, but there are so many schemes for generating money that the game breaks immediately if it isn't used in some form.

[rweird]

Non-specific, assuming created and possibly played by a Player, although in character.

So, a reasonable sense of optimization, with intelligent playing, while still holding true to its fluff without being Pun Pun. For example, Imhotep being comparatively weak-sauce is a fairly easy example of taking one down, but what about some of the more threatening ones (as a guideline), before going into some TO horror.

The initial case was an assumed Greater Deity based off 150 HD worth of Advanced Time Dragon, although I'm open to any others.

Its 144 HD FYI, anyways, my arguement is you can't because it can freaking travel anywhere [or is it anywhen] in the time stream, it could be chilling in the future and send astral projections into the past (present for you), as soon as it becomes great wyrm it could just travel all through the time stream and learn everything just by always being there and having a really long time (forever) to work things out. I don't think time traveling could kill it because it can travel anywhere in time, while you'll have trouble getting to the future (or the exact time and place in the past it is right), as well as it being able to muddle its own timeline so multiple versions of it oppose you (a bunch of them will if the threat is serious), also, as a greater deity that travels through time, it'd know when it'll die, and prepare, or just avoid that point indefinitely.

The only way to really beat it is to gain time travel and divinity (PoA into great wyrm time dragon +ice assassin gods), though as long as it was a great wyrm god before you were, it'd detect that and stop you. I don't even think Pun-Pun could do it unless he ascends earlier in the Time Stream than the Time Dragon because the dragon would learn of his ascension and stop him (unless he's cool with something like that existing).

[Slipperychicken]

I don't even think Pun-Pun could do it

The moment ascension happens, he wins. He just creates some abilities like these.

It Was Always Like This (Ex)
Pun Pun has always possessed all the abilities listed here, even before he acquired them. Additionally, Pun Pun is aware of, and may exempt himself from, any consequences of a time paradox which may result from this ability.

Screw Time Dragons (Ex)
Time Dragons don't exist, can't exist, never existed, and never will, unless Pun Pun decides it to be so, which he may accomplish at any time without spending any actions. This supersedes all text involving them, completely removing these creatures from the game.

[rweird]

The moment ascension happens, he wins. He just creates some abilities like these.

It Was Always Like This (Ex)
Pun Pun has always possessed all the abilities listed here, even before he acquired them. Additionally, Pun Pun is aware of, and may exempt himself from, any consequences of a time paradox which may result from this ability.

Screw Time Dragons (Ex)
Time Dragons don't exist, can't exist, never existed, and never will, unless Pun Pun decides it to be so, which he may accomplish at any time without spending any actions. This supersedes all text involving them, completely removing these creatures from the game.

I mean the time dragon would be able to kill Pun-Pun pre-ascension assuming the Time Dragon lived before Pun-Pun did. He'd sense Pun-Pun's ascension so he'd kill Pun-Pun the moment he says "Paz-" if not before. I'm just saying a Time Dragon would be able to prevent his ascension.

[Vaz]

Why? Even if the event occurs and the Kobold is seen with sensory abilities, would the Time Dragon *really* be all that bothered by a Kobold getting the ability to manipulate it's own form? What serious threat would a lowly weakling kobold have against the Might of Deific Time Dragon? Just because *we* know that as soon as Manipulate Form is achieved, it's simply a matter of time before it achieves a deities status, there's still nothing to state it would be a threat to the advanced Time Dragon.

[rweird]

Why? Even if the event occurs and the Kobold is seen with sensory abilities, would the Time Dragon *really* be all that bothered by a Kobold getting the ability to manipulate it's own form? What serious threat would a lowly weakling kobold have against the Might of Deific Time Dragon? Just because *we* know that as soon as Manipulate Form is achieved, it's simply a matter of time before it achieves a deities status, there's still nothing to state it would be a threat to the advanced Time Dragon.

He has int ~100, a yes, he'd realize what it can do, and would try to stop it, probably get it for himself to. He's had eternity to discover stuff, and a brain better than anyone alive has. He'd sense whatever effect there'd be of Pun-
Pun getting any ability to travel through time. Pun-Pun gaining the ability "Screw Time Dragons" would alert him 16+ weeks before it happens because the removal of him from the time stream would change the universe. Anything gaining ultimate power is a potential threat, what the dragon would do about it varies, but if he wants to stop Pun-Pun, he would. I said " don't even think Pun-Pun could do it unless he ascends earlier in the Time Stream than the Time Dragon because the dragon would learn of his ascension and stop him (unless he's cool with something like that existing)." If he is, he obviously wouldn't stop him, though unless manipulate form has never been used before, he'd know what it can do, and that this kobold would greatly change time with it.

Its IQ is like 900, it can remember everything its ever seen with perfect clarity, with the right SDA, it can know everything ever learned (Perfect Recall), and it has eternity to learn it. I think its a reasonable assumption for it to know that manipulate form is massively broken.

[Vaz]

Yes, but why would Pun Pun getting Manipulate Form alert the God? It has nothing to do with its portfolio.

[rweird]

Yes, but why would Pun Pun getting Manipulate Form alert the God? It has nothing to do with its portfolio.

One, Pun-Pun's (possibly legal) "Screw Time Dragons" ability would mess with the time stream (its divine sense), or anything temporal Pun-Pun attempts (he'd want to do that quickly because Time Travel killing him is one of his only weaknesses), also, he'd understand the power of manipulate form, and either hunt down all creatures with it in existence, or at least have them followed (considering he can create them himself, killing them and trapping there souls is reasonable). Also, various SDA can tell him stuff (Perfect Recall, things manipulating time, whatever Pun-Pun does to kill the Time Dragon would do such, once he travels to the future he'd learn that). He can scry for possible threats and stuff, Pun-Pun would resistor. Also, the portfolio of time could be interpreted to include everything that involves time (Pun-Pun's ascension, any action anything takes, etc).