Drow worshiping Corellon

[Yomega]

Alright so I need help making the fluff on why (and posibly how) a secretly chaotic good drow paragon who worships Corellon could hide in plain sight in Menzzobaranzan

[satorian]

At what level? And how smart/paranoid are the Drow in your world? Considering the latter answer to that question is usually "very", I think you'd need a permanent item of Mind Blank, which would protect you from detect thoughts/lies/good/etc. But that is a pretty high level item, and so rather expensive.

You could work with the DM to have it only work on Drow, and so reduce the cost. There is a danger there, of course, in that a visiting Illithid or somesuch would be able to see through your ruse and use his knowledge to manipulate you. Maybe have it just work in the Underdark (but not be destroyed when it surfaces).

You really do need to protect against all forms of thought and alignment detection all the time, so I think Mind Blank may be the only sufficient tool.

[Phelix-Mu]

With great difficulty, I'd imagine. Let's see.

Alright. Back sometime in the young drow's youth, a surface raid on an elven village took place. Captives were taken, and among the captives was a fe/male elven cleric of Corellon. At first, the cleric attempts to keep his/her identity as a cleric secret, hoping to help/counsel the other prisoners. Your character is part of the house that led the raid, and maybe has some kind of position in the house that gave him/her a front row seat. Perhaps son/daughter of the family that traditionally tortures good elves and prepares them for ritual sacrifice to Lolth.

Anyway, a large amount of face time occurs, and the drow feels some strange, alien empathy with the cleric. Eventually the profession of the cleric is discovered, and a big deal is made of torturing him/her to turn away from his/her faith. These efforts in the end fail, as the faith of the cleric is strong. But now it's on to an elaborate sacrificial ritual, and it's part of your character's inauguration into the family torture business to deliver the killing blow or hand the knife to the priestess. Wracked by guilt, the young drow's dilemma is sensed by the cleric. At the final moment, the cleric forgives the young drow. Later, the character finds a simple, wooden holy symbol of the elf good hidden in the cleric's empty cell, and the drow decides to keep it.

Equipped with a holy symbol of Corellon and now having some sympathy for elf captives, the drow now only pretends to torture the elf captives (convincingly so, of course, stabbing in less painful areas, administering numbing poison first). Although s/he lacks the resources to rescue the elves, the drow is filled with the growing determination to oppose Lolth by whatever means possible. Worshiping the elf god Corellon is just a logical step in the process of separating himself from the society that he no longer feels a part of.

Basically, it's a big city. One can hide many things there, and with the help of drow paranoia and practiced deception, a great many things probably go on there which would irritate the priestesses of Lolth if they came to light. Good luck, a good storyline begins!

[Rogue Shadows]

I don't think you really need to disguise your alignment, per se, so much as your intentions, so mind blanking and other forms of thought-detection-prevention are probably sufficient.

After all, being good means "will take risks to help others." That is infinitely exploitable by the drow houses. As long as you're not visibily trying to tear down the ceiling of Menzoberranzan, you can probably get by just fine with Chaotic Good.

[satorian]

I'm under the impression that Mind Blank protects from Detect [Alignment] anyway.

[_Jarlaxle_]

Corellon condemned a whole race for the deeds of some of them, even with members of other elven races doing far more horrible stuff unpunished by him.

So its very unlikely that he accepts a drow worshipper. You character can still worship him of course and do good things in his name but I doubt he will gain any benefits from Corellon.

[Istari]

Ring of Mind Shielding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#mindShielding)
Only 8,000 gp and protects against any divinations you are likely to run into.

[TopCheese]

Corellon condemned a whole race for the deeds of some of them, even with members of other elven races doing far more horrible stuff unpunished by him.

So its very unlikely that he accepts a drow worshipper. You character can still worship him of course and do good things in his name but I doubt he will gain any benefits from Corellon.

Yeah.. Corellon is a.. Well I can't use those words...

Corellon would more than likely rat out the worshiper to lolth just because he hates the drow. Sure he doesn't like lolth but he seems to hate the mortals way more than he should.

[Larkas]

I sense a great history brewing over the horizon! Anyways, if you want a character without contact to the surface elves turn good, Eilistraee might be a safer/logical bet. But by all means, this is just a heads up!

[Darius Kane]

I don't think you really need to disguise your alignment, per se, so much as your intentions, so mind blanking and other forms of thought-detection-prevention are probably sufficient.

After all, being good means "will take risks to help others." That is infinitely exploitable by the drow houses. As long as you're not visibily trying to tear down the ceiling of Menzoberranzan, you can probably get by just fine with Chaotic Good.
Um, no. Being Good is considered a weakness and weakness is eliminated in drow societies. If someone cares for the Good drow, they'll try to "reform" him, but if he's no one important then they just kill him (likely by sacrificing him to their God). It's also against their goddess's dogma.

[Phelix-Mu]

Corellon condemned a whole race for the deeds of some of them, even with members of other elven races doing far more horrible stuff unpunished by him.

So its very unlikely that he accepts a drow worshipper. You character can still worship him of course and do good things in his name but I doubt he will gain any benefits from Corellon.

Hmm, this doesn't sound entirely accurate. The people that followed Lolth were defeated in the Elfwar, and then followed her underground, subsequently being molded into drow by Lolth, though I guess Corellon might have given them the light sensitivity after Corellon banished her. They weren't a separate subrace until after the Elfwar, unless I'm missing some setting-based history.

Certainly some of them might have had second thoughts about siding with Lolth, but being on the losing side of history always sucks.

EDIT: I would also say that drow society is slightly more chaotic than evil, since the evil really arises from each individual feeling beholden to no one besides their own desires. Ultimate freedom, so to speak, so much so that the result of everyone following their bliss is that there is a crazy large amount of hedonism, murder, and power-tripping. Sure, Lolth wants some evil to be going on, but the whole society is based on no sense of order or collective loyalty other than to Lolth, and Lolth encourages everyone to do as much as they can get away with, short of any lack of loyalty towards her or her clergy.

Just my interpretation, though. DM's flavor is king, once again.

[Psyren]

Yeah.. Corellon is a.. Well I can't use those words...

Corellon would more than likely rat out the worshiper to lolth just because he hates the drow. Sure he doesn't like lolth but he seems to hate the mortals way more than he should.

If he hated good Drow that much, Eilistraee would have no followers.

As far as hiding, there's a psionic feat that makes you always detect as neutral but I don't know of any other feat-based methods.

[Rogue Shadows]

Um, no. Being Good is considered a weakness and weakness is eliminated in drow societies. If someone cares for the Good drow, they'll try to "reform" him, but if he's no one important then they just kill him (likely by sacrificing him to their God). It's also against their goddess's dogma.

Zaknafein managed to live for several hundred years in Menzoberranzan despite despising drow culture - officially he's Chaotic Neutral, but he clearly leaned towards Good. He was still an exploitable tool for Malice, and a damn good one at that, so she kept him around.

This also all depends on the idea that drow clerics literally go around casting detect alignment on every drow they see. They probably don't, as they have better things to do with their time, and given that their society as a whole promotes evil they probably just assume that everyone is evil anyway.

[Phelix-Mu]

If he hated good Drow that much, Eilistraee would have no followers.

As far as hiding, there's a psionic feat that makes you always detect as neutral but I don't know of any other feat-based methods.

Mmm, and there wouldn't be a need for that minor god that hates drow and lives to hunt them down if Corellon already filled that role. The reason that good-aligned drow rarely, if ever, would come to worship Corellon is probably due as much to the difficulty of actually coming into contact with good surface elves in order to learn about Corellon as to Corellon bearing all drow some kind of grudge. Again, largely down to DM setting flavor.

Of course, Lolth teaches that Corellon is a back-stabbing, soulless bastard. This is another good indication that he probably is not.

As for alignment, just steer clear of the clerics, and never lie in their presence (just re-fluff the truth). If you go with some kind of profession, like torturer, and do a convincing job of faking it, then a lot of drow won't bother to question your loyalty. Again, the clerics of Lolth and so forth are the big issue.

[Darius Kane]

Zaknafein managed to live for several hundred years in Menzoberranzan despite despising drow culture - officially he's Chaotic Neutral, but he clearly leaned towards Good. He was still an exploitable tool for Malice, and a damn good one at that, so she kept him around.
Yeah, he wasn't Good. And considering that Lolth technically allows CN Clerics then it's not unusual that a useful male warrior got a pass.


This also all depends on the idea that drow clerics literally go around casting detect alignment on every drow they see. They probably don't, as they have better things to do with their time, and given that their society as a whole promotes evil they probably just assume that everyone is evil anyway.
Sure. But if you're Good and not smart or careful enough, you'll slip up sooner or later. And almost anyone you know (other than other Good or Neutral drow) will gladly sell you to the authorities.

[Phelix-Mu]

Maybe the OP's character doesn't manage to become CG until "coming out" so to speak, usually done by escaping from drow society (difficult) or rebelling against the authorities (very difficult, and highly suicidal). Still, drow are creatures of passion, and if this character feels passionately that being evil is bad, that is strong motive to move heaven and earth in order to fool the powers that be.

To the OP, some consideration of class and abilities is definitely important. While drow paragon may or may not affect your social status, your class levels will be key to how you interact. Finally, I'd advise not dropping any of your mental stats. For someone put one over on all of his/her conniving fellow drow, you will benefit greatly from having decent interaction and alertness skills from early levels. If you aren't planning to leave Menzzobaranzan, then you should definitely aim for a class that has a decent skill list.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Alright so I need help making the fluff on why (and posibly how) a secretly chaotic good drow paragon who worships Corellon could hide in plain sight in Menzzobaranzan

With a level in Shadowdancer.:smallbiggrin:

Isn't there a ACF/feat/PrC somewhere for hidden worshippers of Eilistraee in the Underdark? I remember seeing something about that, but it might just have been a fluff passage.

Is there a reason why Eilistraee isn't being considered? As I see it, she makes a lot more sense, given the situation (ignoring the fact that she, like Lolth, takes only female clerics (at least in the novels)).

[Andezzar]

With a level in Shadowdancer.:smallbiggrin:Play a Dark Drow, then you can do it at level 1, well ECL 2. :smallbiggrin:

You would have to find a reason why that Drow was born on the Plane of Shadow and now lives in Menzoberranzan though.

[Psyren]

Play a Dark Drow, then you can do it at level 1, well ECL 2. :smallbiggrin:

You would have to find a reason why that Drow was born on the Plane of Shadow and now lives in Menzoberranzan though.

He could simply have been born in an area infused with supernatural shadow. The Underdark has plenty of those - in fact, it actually merges with the PoS if you go deep enough.

Also, an ECL 1 Dark (Lesser) Drow is possible; the Dark template in ToM only has LA if it significantly increases the capabilities of the base creature. Simply granting HiPS is not enough. Drow already have darkvision and are already good at hiding, so it can easily be argued that the Dark template is an LA 0 on them.

[Andezzar]

Also, an ECL 1 Dark (Lesser) Drow is possible;Forgot the LA of the Drow.

the Dark template in ToM only has LA if it significantly increases the capabilities of the base creature. Simply granting HiPS is not enough. Drow already have darkvision and are already good at hiding, so it can easily be argued that the Dark template is an LA 0 on them.You are mistaken. This rule only applies to the creature's CR. LA is unaffected by it. LA is always +1

You would want to have the Dark template from Cormyr Tearing of the Weave anyways. While both grant an ability called Hide in Plain Sight, the ToM version only allows to hide while being observed, you would still need concealment to hide. The faerunian template waives the requirement for concealment but is SU instead of Ex.

Sorry for derailing the thread.

[kardar233]

While I rarely see it brought up, at the end of the Lady Penitent series Eilistraee is killed, a minor subset of the drow race changes back to their original elf-with-brown-skin forms (long story) and Corellon takes over responsibility for them. A former drow who had lived in their society for a while (and thus had gotten used to living in it and then suddenly became elfy again could use disguise magic to mimic their previous form, though they'd need to find some way to snag continuous darkvision as the new form loses it.

[_Jarlaxle_]

They weren't a separate subrace until after the Elfwar, unless I'm missing some setting-based history.

Seems so. In FR they got banished by Corellon because of their acts (including siding with Lolth and other demons) and abusive magical use against their elven kind.
Strangly unleashing the killing storms didn't get those Vyshaanti High Mages punished.

[ArcturusV]

Huh... that new backstory for the Drow? As I recall originally they were some dark heart of Africa style subset of elves who lived deep in lightless jungles.

Then Elfwar and being driven underground, and Lolth/Lloth becoming the patron Goddess of the Drow after that.

Though that was from a sourcebook during the TSR era and 2nd edition. So maybe it got changed.

[Phelix-Mu]

Seems so. In FR they got banished by Corellon because of their acts (including siding with Lolth and other demons) and abusive magical use against their elven kind.
Strangly unleashing the killing storms didn't get those Vyshaanti High Mages punished.

Can't speak to this other example, but I'm sure after the net negative result of banishing the drow from the surface, Corellon (and probably other good gods) would hesitate to create splinter cultures or races through excessive punitive measures. Kind of like the treatment of the Germans by the rest of Europe after WWI not being so wise in retrospect, even if it was somewhat deserved.

[kardar233]

Huh... that new backstory for the Drow? As I recall originally they were some dark heart of Africa style subset of elves who lived deep in lightless jungles.

Then Elfwar and being driven underground, and Lolth/Lloth becoming the patron Goddess of the Drow after that.

Though that was from a sourcebook during the TSR era and 2nd edition. So maybe it got changed.

Never heard that one.

Spoilers for the Lady Penitent series, if anyone actually wants to read them. They're not that great, so I don't recommend them, but I'm spoilering them here in case anyone decides to.

~EDIT~ By the way, the series in question was part of WotC's plan for transition into 4E, so this may not be valid in your game. Weirdly enough, I haven't actually seen any references to a dark elf/drow split in 4E materials, so it might have been retconned.

In the series, (which dates to 2007/8, so may have been changed) drow were originally a subrace of elves that happened to have brownish skin and organized themselves into the two nations of Miyeritar and Ilythiir.

When Aryvandaar went on an expansionist streak (partly due to influence from a fallen solar and former archdevil by the name of Malkizid) they tried to annex Miyeritar, which didn't work very well. Then they invaded Miyeritar and initially succeeded but couldn't get control over the place due to the Miyeritari's very effective guerilla warfare.

The Ilythiiri (who were pretty nasty types) decided to "help" their Miyeritari friends and went to war on Aryvandaar's allies, most of whom hadn't had anything to do with the devilish types that were running the show. They were so nasty about this that the elven empires as a whole started calling them "dhaerrow", meaning "traitor".

After a while, the Aryvandaar elves got so frustrated with the Miyeritari guerilla warfare that they worked up an epic ritual that blasted the Miyeritar lands into an uninhabitable wasteland.

Sometime later, the Ilythiiri (who were slowly getting beaten back because they'd made enemies of damn near everyone) cut a deal with a ridiculously powerful balor called Wendonai to give them the power they needed to win the war, which also tainted their race in a way that wouldn't become apparent for a while.

This still wasn't enough, as they eventually were pushed back into the Underdark and the Aryvandaar mages pulled together another ritual to link the Ilythiiri dark elves to the natural Underdark magic (the faerzress) to make sure they stayed in the Underdark and also to set them apart from the rest of the elves. While it was designed to hit the Ilythiiri, it got the Miyeritari as well. This ritual was the one that turned their skin from brown to black and gave them darkvision, and is also the reason why they have such a strong reaction to sunlight and generally being on the surface. It's at this point that the elven term for "those Ilythiiri bastards", "dhaerrow" transforms into "drow". Lolth takes credit for turning them into their drow form and that's the story that's preached to drow kids for the next eleven thousand years or so.

In the late 1300s (specific date isn't given, but sometime after 1378) several major events occur. Firstly, Qilue Veladorn, the high priestess of Eilistraee (who has recently killed Vhaeraun and taken over his domain and followers) and one of the Seven, sacrifices herself (and also Eilistraee) to cleanse Wendonai's demonic taint from all drow worshippers of Eilistraee (originally intended to cleanse all drow, but things went wrong). At the same time, Q'arlynd Melarn works up another epic ritual that is supposed to lift the curse that turned the drow into what they are today from all drow, but it turns out that somehow Wendonai's taint stops it from working, so it only affects pureblooded Miyeritari dark elves (which are few and far between) and Eilistraee/Vhaeraun followers. All other drow stay the way they were.

That... probably doesn't make a lot of sense, looking back at it. I hope I carried my point across sufficiently.

[Phelix-Mu]

Spoilers for the Lady Penitent series, if anyone actually wants to read them. They're not that great, so I don't recommend them, but I'm spoilering them here in case anyone decides to.

~EDIT~ By the way, the series in question was part of WotC's plan for transition into 4E, so this may not be valid in your game. Weirdly enough, I haven't actually seen any references to a dark elf/drow split in 4E materials, so it might have been retconned.


Hmm, hurray for making history more complicated than myth? Very complicated, and relegates Lolth to an opportunistic parasite. Quite the demotion, considering she just recently gained enough power to make her realm a separate plane or w/e that storyline was about.

[ArcturusV]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1560761326

Yeah, that was the book I was thinking of. It's history is somewhat similar in so far as there IS an Elf War. But that's about where the similarities end. They were jungle dwelling surface elves, and even some of the things we think of as "Underdark stuff" existed before they were exiled like the darkvision, and the famous Drow Sleep Poison. Elves kicked them downstairs over the typical "You look different than us so we must fight you!" ideals that lead people to hunt down Gobbos and the like. The drow end up at war with the Dwarves soon after they get kicked down, taking over some of their mines/cities. It doesn't go well. They get driven further down. During all the countless wars Lolth/Lloth becomes the dominant deity as the other Drow Gods were ill suited to the constant warfare, or life underground.

[Phelix-Mu]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1560761326

Yeah, that was the book I was thinking of. It's history is somewhat similar in so far as there IS an Elf War. But that's about where the similarities end. They were jungle dwelling surface elves, and even some of the things we think of as "Underdark stuff" existed before they were exiled like the darkvision, and the famous Drow Sleep Poison. Elves kicked them downstairs over the typical "You look different than us so we must fight you!" ideals that lead people to hunt down Gobbos and the like. The drow end up at war with the Dwarves soon after they get kicked down, taking over some of their mines/cities. It doesn't go well. They get driven further down. During all the countless wars Lolth/Lloth becomes the dominant deity as the other Drow Gods were ill suited to the constant warfare, or life underground.

Still, all we get from this is that Corellon interferes with his worshipers even less than in the Elfwars version. The elves themselves are the culprits. Unless Corellon is going to deny the worship of just about any elf, then, he should be receptive to a drow who honestly and truthfully wants to worship him. After all, gods do want worshipers, that really is their whole reason for existing. Now, the rest of the church of Corellon might be less receptive.

In short, I see that there isn't an obvious reason why the OP's concept won't work. It's ultimately down to the DM, but the character is the right alignment and is an elf, the major components of the racial churches have been met.

[ArcturusV]

Really it SHOULD work. There's even precedence too for Clerics in Drow Society. I seem to recall at least one trilogy of FR novels where a Cleric of Vaehraun (Or however it's spelled, my mind is blanking on me, the Drow Thief God) managed to get away with pretending to be a Cleric of Lolth, even getting powers from Lolth, because her god also kept her off the divine radar as his follower.

[Yomega]

Holy hell I love you guys I posted this just before I went to bed and I have this many great post when I wake up.

Well from what I gather my prime consern was in the middle of a prayer Corellon smites me because I am a drow seems not to be the case I think I can make it work.

The game is prisoners in menzobaranzen are escaping so if I wanted to play a drow I needed a danmed good reason for me to go with freed slaves and a danmed good explanation on how I survived everyday life.

I also definatly like the idea of a feat over an item besides the cost aspect you are far more vulnerable with the fact it can be removed does anyone know the psionic feat Psyren was talking about?

And last I had originaly chosen Corellon because he was a clearly polarizing concept from Lolth and he has a pretty cool relic Bow of the Wintermoon I wanted to use but that other god Eilistraee sounds interesting does anyone know what book would have his official fluff and I guess crunch as well dont think I will end up with cleric levels but you never know it a pretty medium rare level of optamization.

[Kuulvheysoon]

And last I had originaly chosen Corellon because he was a clearly polarizing concept from Lolth and he has a pretty cool relic Bow of the Wintermoon I wanted to use but that other god Eilistraee sounds interesting does anyone know what book would have his official fluff and I guess crunch as well dont think I will end up with cleric levels but you never know it a pretty medium rare level of optamization.

Eilisraee is about the same level of polarization - she's Lolth's (rebel) daughter. Your best bet for fluff/crunch would probably be either Faiths and Pantheons or the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Book-wise, the Daughter of the Drow trilogy (Elaine Cunningham?) focuses quite a bit on her, as does a few of the books from War of the Spider Queen and The Lady Penitent.

Favored Weapon is the Bastard sword, if you were curious.

[_Jarlaxle_]

Spoilers for the Lady Penitent series, if anyone actually wants to read them. They're not that great, so I don't recommend them, but I'm spoilering them

Not all of that info is new in the LP series though. You find a lot about it in the Grand History of the Realms ending in:

-10,000 Corellon's magic, as
directed through his priests and High Mages, transforms the dark
elves, whether the corrupt Ilythiiri or others, into the drow.
Whether by magic or by the weaknesses that banish them from
the sunlit lans, all drow retreat within two month's passing into
the Underdark.

[Psyren]

I also definatly like the idea of a feat over an item besides the cost aspect you are far more vulnerable with the fact it can be removed does anyone know the psionic feat Psyren was talking about?


Mind Mask, though it's from an Eberron book.