Good Level 4 and lower Peristable Arcane/Divine Spells

[Muktidata]

I'm playing in a game tomorrow with a party that is 100% mundane except for a Hexblade (rofl). I'm going to build a Theurge using Alternate Source Spell for early entry and DMM'ing my arcane spells. This is mostly to nerf myself a bit. My question is with access to only 3rd level Cleric spells and 4th level Wizard spells, what do you recommend I persist? My character will be a complete noncombatant using minor BFC but hoping to throw out some party-wide buffs rather than too many person-specific buffs. I have three spells I can persist of any level and three spells that must be 3rd level or lower (Rod of Extend, Lesser).

FS Conjurer/CC/Mystic Theurge - non-negotiable - will ban schools later
Level 3 Cleric Spells
Level 4 Wizard Spells
6 Spells Persisted in Total
Party of pure mundanes

Objectives:
Polymorph into a defensive/mobile form
Make my low tier allies feel great about themselves

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Elation (2nd, BoED), Mass Lesser Vigor (3rd, SC), and Magic Circle against Evil (3rd) are fairly standard for divine party buffing.

Arcane spells are almost exclusively self-buffing as far as Persistable choices go. Fell Drain Cloud of Knives (PH2) is up there on my list. Throw in a Fell Drain Death Armor (SC) and nothing is going to mess with you.

[Muktidata]

Yeah, I only have 21 turn attempts and no free feats, so throwing in another MM effect is unlikely. Maybe if low level DMM:Persist is really that bleak I ought to go a different route.

[Valdis]

Going with Wizard spells... I've never persisted with a Wizard before, so here it goes.
You could try:
Greater Invisibility
Mage Armor (it says touch, not personal so I'm not sure if you can use this one)
Blink
Detect Magic
Detect Thoughs

Oh... Lesser Globe of Invulnerability. I guess you can't use this one.. it says "You can leave and return to the globe without penalty." No sense on casting a globe if it doesn't move with you.

[Vaz]

Wraithstrike - everydayattack is a holidaytouchattack
Greater Invisibility - say more?
Bite of the Wererat/wolf - if you're hitting things, anyway.

[Muktidata]

Not planning on hitting anything, but I will keep a polymorph just in case. Greater Invisibility is indeed a good one.

Edit: Why can't Haste be persisted?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Yeah, I only have 21 turn attempts and no free feats, so throwing in another MM effect is unlikely. Maybe if low level DMM:Persist is really that bleak I ought to go a different route.

I'm sure there are some I missed.

Dragon Breath (4th, SC) is a good choice to give you something to do in combat.

Judging by your spell levels I'd say you're starting as a Wizard 2/ Cleric 1/ MT 5. Assuming the Planning and Undeath domains, you're probably looking at Precocious Apprentice, Alternate Source Spell, Persist, and DMM: Persist with a Human. Possibly two flaws for Extra Turning x2, which doesn't really work with Wizard at 1st for Precocious Apprentice, unless those flaws 'during character creation' can be taken after 1st in your group. Be sure to replace Scribe Scroll with Improved Initiative or even Improved Toughness if you take Cleric before Wizard.

Keep it at Wizard 2/ Cleric 1/ MT 5. Switch your race to Illumian (RoD) with the Krau sigil to fix your caster levels. Replace Precocious Apprentice and Alternate Source Spell with Improved Sigil: Krau. You can still keep DMM: Persist but can't use it on arcane spells. Persist those few Cleric group-buffs that I mentioned, and eventually include Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. Use your Wizard spells to be Batman.

[Muktidata]

I'm going kobold and retraining the feats I used to enter Theurge. But who cares about the build? I just need spells!

Edit: Currenty planning on keeping ASS to persist Arcane spells. I had thought to go lore drake sorcerer, but I haven't decide if I want to yet. I could go a different DMM route like extend and take a level of Prestige Paladin with Battle Blessing. Quickened Extended wizard/cleric spells might be nice. But building characters is easy, it's spell selection that's a little rougher for me.

[Valdis]

Not planning on hitting anything, but I will keep a polymorph just in case. Greater Invisibility is indeed a good one.

Edit: Why can't Haste be persisted?

It doesn't have a fixed range. A persisted spell must have a personal range or fixed range.

The range for haste is: Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) , as you can see it's not fixed, it increases 5 feet every 2 levels.

Get your Cleric spells up to 4th level and you can Persist: Consumptive Field (http://dndtools.eu/spells/libris-mortis-the-book-of-the-dead--71/consumptive-field--1472/).. FTW!!!

[Muktidata]

Perhaps build is relevant:

How about CC 1/Sorceror X/War Weaver X

Then with ASS I can persist my war weaver chained buffs. I will use Loredrake etc for early entry as I see fit.

What are good persisted 4th level arcane spells to go with war weaver? Animalistic Power and Elate plus Ability Enhancer?

[Valdis]

Perhaps build is relevant:

How about CC 1/Sorceror X/War Weaver X

Then with ASS I can persist my war weaver chained buffs. I will use Loredrake etc for early entry as I see fit.

What are good persisted 4th level arcane spells to go with war weaver? Animalistic Power and Elate plus Ability Enhancer?

Looks like you are wanting to go arcane, why take a dip in CC? I'm assuming that CC = Cloistered Cleric

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you do go Sorcerer, take Ancestral Relic (BoED) at 3rd level, and make it a custom Runestaff (MIC p224). You get to decide every spell that's on it and how often each can be used. Every time you upgrade/modify it you can completely replace its current properties with new ones if equal value. The value of its magical properties has a level-based limit, but there is no limit to the value you can sacrifice into it for later use.

When your party would sell junk loot for half price, buy it from the party pool for that price. You'll still get a fair share of that back when the cash is split, so for example in a party of four characters, 1,000 gp worth of junk loot will cost you 500 gp, and you'll get 125 gp of that back, for a net cost of 375 gp. You can sacrifice the full value of all that junk loot into your Ancestral Relic to upgrade it, so it's upgraded for considerably less than half price.

That will give you any 1/day persistable spells you want, plus you can learn choice Sorcerer spells like Wings of Cover and Wings of Flurry. You can even put non-Sorcerer spells on your Runestaff, pick up one rank in UMD, and use Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) to UMD: Emulate Class Feature to attune to the runestaff each day and be able to cast any spells it contains via your Sorcerer spell slots.

[Muktidata]

For ASS + DMM Persist + Kobold CL buffing for catching back up on my missed levels + chaining useful buffs to my melee friends

[Valdis]

For ASS + DMM Persist + Kobold CL buffing

I'm officially lost now. Have no idea what ASS stands for and not familiar with Kobold CL (caster level?) buffing.

I'm currently in the same boat, I'm -1 CL because I'm taking levels in the sovereign speaker PrC. That is why I'm planning on persisting Consumptive Field, to gain that level back + some.

[Muktidata]

ASS = Alternate Spell Source lets you cast arcane as divine
Kobold tricks = Lore Drake and Greater Draconic Rite to get +3 Sorceror spell casting levels

[Valdis]

ASS = Alternate Spell Source lets you cast arcane as divine
Kobold tricks = Lore Drake and Greater Draconic Rite to get +3 Sorceror spell casting levels

What's the advantage to casting arcane spells as divine? I know I'm missing something major.

[Vaz]

Alternate Spell Source is in Dragon 325.

http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Alternative_Source_Spell

[Muktidata]

You can't DMM: Persist an Arcane spell.

[Valdis]

You can't DMM: Persist an Arcane spell.

Oh duh... that would explain my first post, as to why I've never done it before.. LOL


Going with Wizard spells... I've never persisted with a Wizard before, so here it goes.

[Muktidata]

So assuming touch is fine for persist, what shall I weave for my friends? Spell level 4 and lower. Six different spells.

[Valdis]

So assuming touch is fine for persist, what shall I weave for my friends? Spell level 4 and lower. Six different spells.

I found this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177588) thread.

At least it will give an idea of what you can persist, then go from there.

If you consider "touch" attacks to be persistable, there is some debate about this. Some say you need the Reach Spell feat to make touch spells persistable. I believe you can only persist spells on yourself, not others.

4th
Polymorph
Invisibility, Greater
Fire Shield
Stoneskin

3rd
Water Breathing
Gaseous Form
Fly
Blink
Displacement
Heroism
Tongues
Protection from Energy
Nondetection
Magic Circle against XXXX

2nd
Spider Climb

Just some of them. I only had access to 1 spell list. I know there are many others out there.