Calling all optimizers; please, break this ability!

[Vaz]

Just a quick heads up, I'm in the process of creating a homebrew class, and I'm quite happy with how I've made its signature ability work, but I want to know if it's too powerful. The skinny on the ability is below, so I'd like to see what you could come up with to bust it; you have 5 options of using Extraordinary Learner, although I'm thinking of making a Feat chain of around 3 feat prerequisites and a fourth allowing another usage of "Extraordinary Learner", but can be taken multiple times (so a Soldier 20, maximising this ability could get 9 Ex abilities.


I've made a homebrew class (called soldier from now on) whose signature ability is to copy other classes Extraordinary Abilities and can use them, called Extraordinary Learner.

The ability itself can only copy class based Ex abilities, not Racial, or any other manner of Ex abilities that are not gained through a class feature. To learn it, it must spend a few days learning the ability, and it must be taught by someone who the Soldier has visibly seen use the ability, so no 'kill the BBEG henchmen and copy his ability'.

They can get several abilities, provided that the class level of the soldier is four higher than the level at which the teacher gained the ability first. When the soldier learns the ability all references of the teaching class are replaced by Soldier. If he gains the same ability from taking levels in another class, and it advances in regards to class level, add your Soldier Level-4. They do not need to meet the classes prerequisites either. So, prestige classes can be learned.

You gain Extraordinary Learner at 5, 8, 12, 16, 20.

So, assuming all of the above, and full TO, how would you go around copying any abilities from any classes for a class?

[hoverfrog]

So anything a Barbarian, Ranger and a Rogue can do plus most of what a Monk can do. Add in the Aura of a Cleric, Paladin disease immunity. That's just the core classes. If you look at Prestige Classes then the Soldier can take the abilities of the Dragon Disciple, the Duelist, the Dwarven Defender, etc without meeting the prerequisites.

Let's take the 8th level soldier as an example. Through observation he has the following abilities.

Fast movement from Barbarian
Rage from Barbarian
Uncanny Dodge from Barbarian
Trap Sense from Barbarian
AC bonus from Monk
Flurry of Blows from Monk
Evasion from Monk
Fast Movement from Monk
Still Mind from Monk
Slow Fall from Monk
Wild Empathy from Ranger
Combat Style from Ranger
Animal Companion from Ranger

I'm assuming that this Extraordinary Learner only applies to a single class at a time and continues to advance for that class as the Soldier advances. The text doesn't make that clear and you probably mean that you can copy one ability per Extraordinary Learner, not all of the abilities. Is that right?

[prufock]

It is similar to the factotum's Cunning Brilliance, except (from what I gather), once you learn it you keep it and it's set, no switching it out on the fly. You also gain it much earlier. But basically you're just giving the soldier a class feature that says "take a class feature from another class."

The factotum, however, can't emulate prestige class abilities, so there might be something there that could be broken. The level+4 limitation seems strict enough, though, to keep most things from being too powerful.

To make sure I understand correctly, a soldier basically counts as soldier levels minus 4 as their effective class level for the ability they copy, yes? IE a soldier can learn sneak attack at level 5, but only gets +1d6, which increases to +2d6 at level 7.

[Aharon]

You're opening a can of worms, some people think Spellcasting is (Ex). And it's quite possible that in the vast array of published material, there is some class where this is given in the definition. Just exclude it to be safe.

I assume that your intention was that one ability per use is copied. As hoverfrog points out, this can be made clearer.

You gain Extraordinary Learner at 5, 8, 12, 16, 20, and can copy exactly one (Ex) ability of one class each time you gain this ability.

Also, there are PrCs where "level" becomes a bit fuzzy. I would base it around HD:

They can get several abilities, provided that the class level of the soldier is four higher than the number of hit dice the teacher had when he gained the ability first.

Otherwise, some players might argue you should be able to get


Unstoppable (Ex)

At 1st level, the legendary dreadnought can concentrate his or her power, gaining a +20 bonus on his or her Strength check to break or burst a door or item once per day, plus one additional time per day every five levels thereafter. As a special use of this ability, the legendary dreadnought can attempt to break a wall of force (Strength DC 32, and the character applies his or her unstoppable bonus to this check as well). Alternatively, the legendary dreadnought can apply the +20 bonus to a single attack roll.


this at 5th level (which actually isn't too bad, but still on the stronger side, and I assume there are even worse examples).

[prufock]

Also, there are PrCs where "level" becomes a bit fuzzy. I would base it around HD:
I agree this should be cleared up, but do we want to count racial HD in this? Maybe "character level" instead?


some people think Spellcasting is (Ex)
I don't think there's really much text support on this though. FAQ for factotum said "use DM judgement" on some untyped abilities. The rules certainly aren't clear on this, unless it was cleared up in the rules compendium, which I don't have.

All the same, it might be prudent to state it: "no spellcasting."

[IndirectLemon]

What stops me just cherry-picking lvl 20 base class abilities or lvl 10 PrC abilities... other than finding someone of the appropriate class to train me.

You might say "well those individuals are rare." but to a player playing this class he hears "DM FIAT Nyah Nyah Nyah!"

Also if a PrC has a nice capstone, like a dervish, which is enterable at lvl 5 then an NPC only needs to be lvl 15, which is less rare than a 20.

Sidenote; Dervish (ex)
A Thousand Cuts (Ex): When a dervish reaches 10th level, once per day she may double the number of melee attacks she makes while performing a full attack action (whether in a dervish dance or not). If a dervish uses this ability in conjunction with her dervish dance, she can make up to two attacks between moves.
The dervish also gains the benefit of the Great Cleave feat with slashing weapons while performing a thousand cuts, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. She does not have to move 5 feet before making any extra attacks granted by this ability.

[Vaz]

The base class with a more wordy version is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268154).

I've noticed while reading the DMG it can give some slightly odd results, like a Dragon Disciples' Wings, or a Druid's Timeless Body.

Sorry I didn't make it too clear;

1; He cannot observe all of those, he only gets 5 uses of the ability.
2; He actually has to observe and then be taught, requiring down time similar to a Wizard copying spells into his book.
3; The ability can apply to any Ex ability he observes, provided he is of 4 levels higher than the Class Level of the Teacher at the time the teacher learned the ability; so a Barbarian 10/Cleric 1 with levels progressed in that order could only learn the Cleric's Aura at Soldier 15. This works with Prestige Classes as well.
4; Ex abilities which scale up of their own accord in regards to class level do so, but at -4 Level. However, if it gains a boost to that ability that's not included in the Ex Ability itself (i.e Greater Rage), then the Soldier must spend another usage of the ability to gain it. So, while you might get the 3/day rage as a 10th Level Barbarian at Soldier 14, you wouldn't get its Greater Rage without spending another use of Extraordinary Learner.

Here's a few I've got so far while reading through a few books;


PHB1

Barbarian; Fast Movement, Rage, Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Damage Reduction, Greater Rage (useless without the ability to rage anyway), Indomitable Will.
Cleric; Aura
Druid; Animal Companion, Nature Sense, Wild Empathy, Woodland Stride, Trackless Step, Resist Nature's Lure, Venom Immunity, Timeless Body
Monk; AC Bonus, Flurry of Blows, Evasion, Fast Movement, Still Mind, Slow Fall, Purity of Body, Diamond Soul
Paladin; Aura of Courage, Divine Health
Ranger; Favoured Enemy, Wild Empathy, Combat Style, Animal Companion, Improved Combat Style, Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker, Evasion, Combat Style Mastery, Camouflage
Rogue; Evasion, Trap Sense, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Crippling Strike, Defensive Roll, Improved Evasion, Opportunist, Slippery Mind
PHB2

Beguiler; Armoured Mage, Cloaked Casting, Surprise Casting, Advanced Learning
Dragon Shaman; Draconic Adaptation (limited to Black, Bronze, Gold, Red and White out of the Core, maybe others), Draconic Resolve, Natural Armour, Energy Immunity
Duskblade; Armoured Mage, Spell Power
Knight; Knight's Challenge (all (Ex) except Loyal Beyond Death), Shield Block, Bulwark of Defence, Armour Mastery, Vigilant Defender, Shield Ally, Improved Shield Ally, Impetuous Endurance
DMG

Assassin; Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge
Blackguard; Aura of Evil
Dragon Disciple; Natural Armour Increase, Claws and Bite, Ability Boost, Blindsense, Wings
Duellist; Canny Defense, Improved Reaction, Enhanced Mobility, Grace, Precise Strike, Acrobatic Charge, Elaborate Parry
Dwarven Defender; AC Bonus, Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense, Damage Reduction, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Mobile Defense
Loremaster; Greater Lore, True Lore
Shadow Dancer; Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Defensive Roll, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Slippery Mind, Improved Evasion


That is all I've got so far.

Edit; Ooh, replize!

@prufock; I haven't played with/against a Factotum and have yet to fully read through Dungeonscape, so I'll take your word on it. The Limitation was there to prevent 20th Level Capstones being taken, level 10 Capstones, well, to get those, the Soldier would have to be around 18-20. And yes, you have your understanding of it correct, although as Sneak Attack is not listed as (Ex), it would not be eligible. I believe Sudden Strike and Skirmish is listed as an (Ex) ability, however, and that the Dark Hunter Prestige Class gains Sneak Attack as an (Ex) ability (although that does not increase in levels). Rage is the example I use, a 5th Level Soldier gains Rage 1/day if they've been taught, and Soldier 8, it would gain Rage 2/day, in addition to another usage of Extraordinary Learner. Note that Extraordinary Learner does not have to be used immediately, you can keep it until you see something of interest.

@Aharon; Spellcasting is not (Ex). It is not listed as such in Class Features, although I will clarify. I had been struggling to get the wording correct. I understood Character Level to be HD+Class Levels, with ECL including the Level Adjusment. Considering;
[quote]The (Ex) Ability learned by the Professional Soldier must have been learned by the teacher when their level (Hit Dice+All Class Levels) that was no larger than the Professional Soldiers current Class Level.

@IndirectLemon; Outside of restriction to access, nothing. In regards to DM Fiat, it's fairly similar to a Wizard's/Archivist Spellbook/Prayerbook. A DM can say "no there's no scrolls of Gate available. Automatically assuming you'll be able to get access to more than the 2 Free Spells per level you learn. In regards to the Base 5/Prestige 10, as mentioned, you'd need to wait to Level 19 to be able to learn it yourself, as well as forgoing the ability of 3 levels of using another ability.

You can also still learn abilities off your allies; although lower levelled, and doubling up on an ability within , you can fill in the role until someone else raises the dead guy, or allows a dead guy to make another character as the party no longer requires someone capable with Trap Sense. Not much point in having 1 tool for every job if you cannot do the job because that 1 tool is broken. Of course, that is then down to the players you're with, and allows a bit of roleplay to learn the ability; a party with a Dragonborn of Bahamut and a Red Slaad Cleric of Tiamat is only going to end in conflict between the two, so the two should not be able to learn abilities off one another. For TO purposes, I see no problem, and encourage it, but for regular play purposes, I also encourage a DM stopping the Solar Professional Soldier learning abilities from the class levelled Pit Fiend.

[GenericMook]

Here's some silly PrC ones I remember off the top of my head:

The Revenant Blade's Legendary Force ability can be learned at level 16, and lets you treat both sides of a Valenar Double Scimitar as a two-handed weapon.

The Bloodstorm Blade's Thunderous Throw ability can be learned at level 12, and lets you throw your weapon with impunity. Actually, you can learn all of the Bloodstorm Blade's abilities.

[prufock]

Sneak Attack is not listed as (Ex), it would not be eligible

That's true. Sneak Attack was listed in the FAQ as one of those abilities I mentioned earlier that are "DM judgement," even though by the rules they are natural abilities.

[Person_Man]

IMO, it's just far too open ended, and far too flexible/powerful. The Factotum ability is a better model, and it's noteworthy that it's a very high level ability.

I have a homebrew Spellthief somewhere, that is capable of stealing pretty much any type of ability at high enough levels. I play tested it a lot, and the keys to balance were:

Putting a time limit on the ability, in rounds.
Allowing a Saving Throw for the opponent.
If the opponent passes the Save, that steal ability can't be used against them again for 24 hours.


There's nothing wrong with having a super cool and flexible copycat ability. But there needs to be some sort of balance.

[Sith_Happens]

I say, less general discussion, more attempting to find hilariously broken combinations of (Ex) class features. I'd have cooked one up myself before posting this, but I'm AFB.

[JaronK]

First of all, be aware that almost every unlabeled class ability is Ex. Sp abilities are always marked as such, and virtually every Su ability is too, because they have to tell you it's magic. Natural abilities are those abilities gained by your physical form, so they're only secondarily granted by class abilities (Wild Shape can give you claw attacks which are natural, for example). Absolutely all abilities are either Sp, Su, Na, or Ex, so that pretty much leaves Ex except for a few very rare special cases where a class ability is Na (certain prestige classes might just give you a natural attack).

See Rules of the Game: All About Polymorph for a full discussion of this by one of the designers, in addition to the PHB and MM discussions on the topic (it's also found in other places if you need more sources, I've been through this discussion too many times to really get into it but I've got all the sources memorized).

So this means the following abilities could be taken:

All Warblade Manuevers.
All Fighter Feats.
Rogue Sneak Attack
All Swordsage Maneuvers (note: a few maneuvers themselves are Su, but the ability to use Maneuvers is Ex)
All Crusader Maneuvers (see above)

Seems a bit overpowered to me. If you want to say the ability only works on abilities explicitly marked as Ex, you can. Definitely state that you don't want spellcasting to work (simply stating that nothing magical can ever be gained would work, as that would also knock out Swordsage teleports and such). But in general, something this open ended is bound to be broken.

JaronK

[Story]

Are you sure the Swordsage teleports count as magical? I don't see anything saying that Shadow Jaunt is (Su) for instance.

[JaronK]

Yes, there's a special note about it, but it's not found with the maneuvers.

JaronK

[Gandariel]

I'd be taking pounce, the Factotum level 8 ability for extra actions, sneak attack, the Druid's animal companion.. not sure about what else. Some monk bonus, i guess.

Actually the factotum thing would be pretty weak since you don't have many inspiration points..

Question: do the abilities i gain from this ability count as prerequisites for feats (Craven, Font of inspiration, Natural bond,etc) or PrCs?

Also, you should avoid recursion!
So i saw myself in the mirror learning an ability...

[Story]

Yes, there's a special note about it, but it's not found with the maneuvers.

JaronK

Darn, I guess I need to read the whole thing. I was hoping it was an easy way to teleport in AMFs.