Enchanted Thieves Tools?

[Seharvepernfan]

Is there any reason you couldn't get an enchanted set of MW thieves tools?

Like, +5 enhancement bonus to disable device and open lock, on top of the +2 circumstance bonus?

[Prof.Smythe]

I think Craft: Wondrous Item is probably the best way to do it, but otherwise I don't think there's any reason why not.

Though if you would get both the circumstantial bonus on top of the enchantment bonus I'm not sure, I've seen a few magic items that grant a bonus themselves but didn't give a circumstantial bonus in addition.

[BowStreetRunner]

I use a set of these in my current game and the DM has no problem with it. Since the standard skill bonus from the Creating Magic Items rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) is a competence bonus, these do in fact stack with the circumstance bonus from Masterwork Tools. I figured the exact cost at 2600 GP [Skill bonus cost is bonus squared (5x5=25) x 100 GP = 2500 GP plus the base cost of Masterwork Thieve's Tools at 100 GP].

[Chilingsworth]

If you did this, wouldn't you have to pay double the cost because it would be an unslotted item?

Oh, and worse, you'd have to pay much more than that, becuase you'd be improving two skills (open lock and disable device.)

[ArcturusV]

So we're really talking a 10,400 GP item. Which explains why you typically don't see it I suppose.

Of course considering it is Thieves' Tools, the thief in question might consider it an investment that can more than pay for itself in the long run.

[BowStreetRunner]

If you did this, wouldn't you have to pay double the cost because it would be an unslotted item?

I'm not sure on this one. You don't see this cost increase on weapons or tools that you don't wear on your body (like a Crystal Ball).



Oh, and worse, you'd have to pay much more than that, becuase you'd be improving two skills (open lock and disable device.)

My bad, the set I use only enhances Disable Device. I just use Knock for locks and that comes from a different magic item.

[Jeraa]

The double cost for an unslotted item seems to only be for items that would normally take up a slot.

[JaronK]

Also, the tools do use up your hand slot when you use them. It would be double cost for, I dunno, an Ioun Stone that boosts Open Lock or something.

JaronK

[Arcanist]

You would be better off making it an At will - Knock and then having it give a +whatever bonus to disable device.

[Curmudgeon]

You would be better off making it an At will - Knock and then having it give a +whatever bonus to disable device.
Why do you say that? Such an item would be very expensive. Remember, the first rule of custom magic item pricing is actual worth (see Dungeon Master's Guide page 282), with items of comparable power setting a rough price range. The spell formula approach is the least reliable way of pricing an item.

[Arcanist]

Why do you say that? Such an item would be very expensive. Remember, the first rule of custom magic item pricing is actual worth (see Dungeon Master's Guide page 282), with items of comparable power setting a rough price range. The spell formula approach is the least reliable way of pricing an item.

I meant in terms of utility and time. Performing an Open Lock can fail, where as a Knock will not.

[ArcturusV]

Well, except Open Lock is silent. Knock is not. If stealth is an issue.

[Arcanist]

Well, except Open Lock is silent. Knock is not. If stealth is an issue.

1. Spell Trigger
2. Silent Spell (if absolutely necessary)

[ericgrau]

At will knock activated without making noise is 12,000 gp though. +5 to open lock is 2500 gp. I can see why you wouldn't price a +15 to open lock at 22,500 gp, but +5 or +10 is fair game at the normal price. Since open lock is the classic take 20 skill and the highest listed DC on a lock is 40, I doubt anyone would get anything above a +5. You could use +10 at earlier levels, but you can't afford a +10 at earlier levels.

An item with both a +5 to open lock and disabled device would be 5,000 gp. There should be no extra cost for the 2nd skill because they are related, and for the same reason an unslotted item would be 7,500 gp instead of 10,000 gp.

Since most lock opening is done between combat anyway (with plenty of time to swap slotted gear), and opening locks during combat interferes with wielding a weapon, I can see the argument for using the slotted pricing rather than unslotted for handheld theives' tools.

[Curmudgeon]

1. Spell Trigger
2. Silent Spell (if absolutely necessary)
You can add Silent Spell to the Knock spell in the wand, but that's not going to change the noise you must make to trigger that wand.
Spell Trigger

Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Everyone in the D&D multiverse knows the sound of that single spell trigger word, so speaking it is the epitome of not being stealthy. Simple, yes; stealthy, no.

[ericgrau]

Works on a scroll though.

Knowing the command word is an additional requirement for using a wand, not something everyone knows. In fact:


A command word can be a real word, but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation. More often, the command word is some seemingly nonsensical word, or a word or phrase from an ancient language no longer in common use.

Sometimes the command word to activate an item is written right on the item. Occasionally, it might be hidden within a pattern or design engraved on, carved into, or built into the item, or the item might bear a clue to the command word.

So it most certainly varies.

An identify spell also reveals the command word.

[Arcanist]

Simple, yes; stealthy, no.

I figured the logical assumption was that not everyone using a magical item shouts the command word. The word must simply be spoken, not spoken aloud. But I am just splitting hairs here.

Regardless, in terms of price and effectiveness the At Will Knock, slotted item with a bonus to Disable device would yield superior give in such a situation, if stealth is required then that means there are people alive to hear you, the contents of the Door can wait... Those precious chunks of experience need your attention :smallamused:

[ArcturusV]

Generally if I'm sneaking/breaking into some place. Magical Silence is a thing that gets used. That way guards that stumble across you can't shout out alarms. You don't have to worry about Elan style, "I ROLLED A 4!"s, etc. And if you're in magical silence, you couldn't trigger a command word anyway.

But even barring that there are usually times where I don't just want to murder everyone in sight. Sabotage missions. Missions requiring stealth and needing to avoid bloodshed (it happens, sometimes, depending on DM). Jail breaks to rescue captured allies unless I already screwed it up and alarms are tripped. And so on and so forth.

And of course bypassing DMs who are fond of magic screw. Magical Theives Tools are still +2 bonus tools in that case, while your Wand of Knock is a fancy little pointer. Maybe a back scratcher now.

[Curmudgeon]

Knowing the command word is an additional requirement for using a wand, not something everyone knows.
You appear to be confusing command word activation (which command word is particular to each magic item), and the single spoken word required for all spell trigger items. With a command word item the key to activating that item is entirely in the particular command word. The key to triggering a wand isn't in the word, but instead in the special knowledge that comes from the wielder's spellcasting class. The single spoken word for spell trigger items is the verbal equivalent of a "go" button. Every other bit of the knowledge needed for the wand to be ready to activate is in the mind of the user.

[ericgrau]

Ah that is in the command word section right next to spell trigger. Oops. It's still unspecified whether the single word to activate wands is the same or different for all wands. Different seems much more plausible, especially with crafters from far away lands.



Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.


It only says you say a single word for a wand, not whether or not that is the same or different for all wands.

[Norin]

I like the idea of magical +X to thief tools. Neat idea.

[watchwood]

Why do you say that? Such an item would be very expensive. Remember, the first rule of custom magic item pricing is actual worth (see Dungeon Master's Guide page 282), with items of comparable power setting a rough price range. The spell formula approach is the least reliable way of pricing an item.

Instances where the DMG pricing guide is insufficent are very much the exception instead of the rule. Most spells are powered so that usage at will is generally level-appropriate powered, though continuous is generally where things start to break. Example:

True Strike: At will is not a big deal, since you're using a standard action to boost your single next attack. Giving up all your attacks on one turn for a single reliable attack next turn is not an unreasable effect for a cheap item. Continuous True Strike on the other hand, is definitely broken.

Ring of Regeneration: I see a lot of folks talk about how the RoR is proof that constant magical healing needs to be stupid expensive. All of these arguments ignore the fact that the RoR also includes the limb-replacing effects of the Regeneration spell, which is 7th level spell at best. An item emulating a 7th level effect is of course going to be quite expensive.

The list goes on, but you get the idea. Common sense is required, and just because something seems powerful doesn't mean it necessarily is.

[ericgrau]

Yes actual worth always trumps all, but the guidelines are there to give you a rough idea of what that is most of the time. There are loopholes which players shouldn't be allowed to exploit, but it mostly works.

As for at-will knock for 12,000 gp. Hmm. By the time you can afford it mundane doors aren't a huge deal anyway. And a 4,500 gp wand of knock is almost as good; usually no campaign will ever use all the charges. To truly abuse it you'd have to find a way of cracking open several dozen doors that are meaningful and yet you would not have time to break in a more slow way. Like having the fighter break them all with a 3,200 gp adamantine weapon. Nah, I don't think at will knock is broken for the normal price.

[JaronK]

An Eternal Wand of Knock is pretty cheap too, and 2/day should be sufficient most of the time.

JaronK

[BowStreetRunner]

An Eternal Wand of Knock is pretty cheap too, and 2/day should be sufficient most of the time.

JaronK

Nah, you don't want a wand like that. Compare:

Eternal Wand of Knock [M159] 4420 GP - cast Knock 2/day if you are an arcane caster or can make the UMD check.
Rod of Escape [M173] 3500 GP - cast Jump and Knock each 2/day and create a water-free 5-foot sphere once per day and you don't have to be an arcane caster or use UMD.

You do the math.

[ericgrau]

Yeah eternal wands are usually poor choices compared to wands or scrolls... and sometimes other items too. The only time they are good is for spells that you use every day even on days when there might not be any encounters. Like buffs that you want to be up even during a surprise assassination attack or some kind of daily non-adventuring activity going on for a month of downtime or more. Your chances of using an eternal wand for 25 adventuring days are pretty slim.

[Chilingsworth]

Nah, you don't want a wand like that. Compare:

Eternal Wand of Knock [M159] 4420 GP - cast Knock 2/day if you are an arcane caster or can make the UMD check.
Rod of Escape [M173] 3500 GP - cast Jump and Knock each 2/day and create a water-free 5-foot sphere once per day and you don't have to be an arcane caster or use UMD.

You do the math.

Note to self: try to get a rod escape for my ultimate magus.

Thanks for pointing that out! :smallbiggrin:

[Piggy Knowles]

Who needs eternal wands of knock? The universal key (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20061106a) is cheaper and can be used on way more than doors... and most important, it's way cooler, too.

[JaronK]

Except that explicitly can't defeat Arcane Lock (though it can take off the hinges of the door, but theoretically you could do that to any arcane locked door).

JaronK

[Chilingsworth]

Also, some DM's distrust material from the wizard's site.

[Mystral]

Just get a set of gloves +5 for each skill. If you need to disable a trap or open a lock, you should have the time to switch gloves.

Magical Equipment gives a competence bonus, btw, not an enhancement bonus.

[Kelb_Panthera]

People always call on knock as the replacement for a skilled lock-pick but that spell has limits you know.

An item producing the spell can only unlock a door that's no more than 30ft square. That's about the size of your front door. It won't do squat for a large vault door, or even just a double door on a mansion's balcony. It's also limited to two locks per door. If your front door has a chain, a deadbolt, and a lock in the knob then knock couldn't even open that in one go.

It's a good spell, but it's not an outright replacement for a rogue's lock-picking skills. It also does nothing at all about any traps on the locked portal you're trying to open.

[JaronK]

You do need it, though, to defeat Arcane Lock.

JaronK

[Piggy Knowles]

Except that explicitly can't defeat Arcane Lock (though it can take off the hinges of the door, but theoretically you could do that to any arcane locked door).

JaronK

The universal key will not only take the hinges off the door, it will remove the actual lock from the door (without unlocking it):


The universal key cannot open any magically sealed lock, but it can undo the physical aspect of whatever is affected by the magic. For example, if a universal key encountered a door with arcane lock cast on it, the key could not unlock the door. It would, however, remove the hinges from the door and possibly detach the lock itself from the door if that were possible.

Unless you make a door with no moving parts, the universal key should open it. And it'll work in an antimagic field, too (not that arcane lock is really a concern in an AMF - but an amazing adamantine lock inside an AMF, with its DC 40 and hardness 20, would put a stop to most rogues).

And again, the universal key works in way more situations than a wand of knock.

Sorry to keep gushing over it, it's just one of my favorite items. My artificer/factotum that I'm playing now has several of these in different sizes, and he has ever so much fun with them.

[ArcturusV]

Unless the hinges were on the other side of the door.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You could always use a "gnomish lockpick" :smallamused:

Secrets of Sarlona has the explosive pack alchemical item. If placed against an object just so (represented by a profession siege engineer check) it does double or even triple damage to an object and several doses can be stacked together for greater effect. If you make it yourself you can get the equivalent of a fireball spell in area and damage dice, but with bludgeoning and piercing damage for about 300gp. 30d6 damage will take out most doors quite handily.:smallbiggrin: