[3.5 / PF] Is there a way to cast a cantrip as swift or free action?

[LostKobold]

I was wondering if, by using all Official (pulished by WotC and Paizo) material from D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder, there was a way to cast cantrip (namely Arcane Mark) as a swift/free action and STILL use a 0 lvl spell slot (aka no spell slot at all), while being a Magus (PF base class), preferably while being low level (about 5, but I'm open to suggestion that would work for any level).

Anybody think he can manage to find a way to do it?


I am aware that I could do it at 15th level, with Spell Perfection feat, use Quicken on it and just ignore the level adjustment of Quicken... But is there a way to make it faster then 15th level?

Now the reason why I want this it to use the maximum potential of the Spellstrike class feature...

Casting a touch spell grant a free touch attack, and this attack can be made with your weapon because of Spellstrike...

If I could cast Arcane Mark (wich is a cantrip touch-spell) as a swift action, it is then the same as being able to make a swift action attack with my weapon. As cantrips can be cast at will, I would be able to pull it off every round I do not use a swift action to do something else...

this would, at level 5, give 3 attack (swift Arcane Mark, as a touch spell, gets me 1 free attack that Spellstrike let me do with my weapon, then fullattack for 1 attack because of BAB, then cast a spell, making it shocking grasp or any touch spell granting me another free attack, again made with spellstrike), one at max BAB, and 2 at BAB-2... and the damage of the second touch spell added on top...

I know, it's really cheesy, but I'm wondering what is the faster way of pulling this up...

I found a way to do it by 15th level with spell perfection... could anyone do better?

[Waddacku]

Just Quicken it?

[andromax]

Craft wand + dragon prophesier + prophecy's artifex feats willl let you use any wand you made that's a standard action.. as a swift, while you're in dragon focus.

The easiest way would be a metamagic rod of quicken.. not really in the budget for EL 5 though.

[fuggerhugger]

Quicken Spell is a feat in the players handbook. Also on SRD -http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Quicken_Spell

[LostKobold]

I see i haven't made myself clear on this one... I want the spell to still be cast as a cantrip (0 lvl spell slot!)

Now I am aware that I could do it at 15th level, with Spell Perfection feat, use Quicken on it and just ignore the level adjustment of Quicken... But is there a way to make it faster then 15th level?

Now the reason why I want this it to use the maximum potential of the Spellstrike class feature...

Casting a touch spell grant a free touch attack, and this attack can be made with your weapon because of Spellstrike...

If I could cast Arcane Mark (wich is a cantrip touch-spell) as a swift action, it is then the same as being able to make a swift action attack with my weapon. As cantrips can be cast at will, I would be able to pull it off every round I do not use a swift action to do something else...

[Ravenica]

RAW no, not the way you want it with paizo material.

It's like they are trying to avoid such cheese or something :smalltongue:

[LostKobold]

Well RAW it is possible by 15th level, with Spell Perfection, as I said in earlier post... And in my experience, when I was able to find a way to do something at a given level, there where always better optimizer then myself able to do it way faster :P

And don't forget, all material for D&D 3.5 is allowed too, not just Pathfinder! And even material from 3.0 if it as not been replaced by a new version from 3.5 or Pathfinder...

[Need_A_Life]

From the Magus FAQ:
"Can a magus use spellstrike to cast a touch spell, move, and make a melee attack with a weapon to deliver the touch spell, all in the same round?
Yes. Other than deploying the spell with a melee weapon attack instead of a melee touch attack, the magus spellstrike ability doesn’t change the normal rules for using touch spells in combat. So, just like casting a touch spell, a magus could use spellstrike to cast a touch spell, take a move toward an enemy, then (as a free action) make a melee attack with his weapon to deliver the spell."

From the class feature:
"At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell."

So, if I understand correctly, you can already use it every single round without a problem.

[LostKobold]

True, but i want to be able to do it twice in the round... Cast Arcane mark as a free action, make the free attack granted by the casting of a touch spell with my weapon... Then Make a full attack, with Spell Combat (As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action) and cast another touch spell as the spell cast, granting me an other free attack (at -2 to touch, as all my previous attack)

this would, at level 5, give 3 attack, one at max BAB, and 2 at BAB-2... and the damage of the second touch spell added on top...

I know, it's really cheesy, but I'm wondering what is the faster way of pulling this up...

I found a way to do it by 15th level with spell perfection... could anyone do better?

[Ravenica]

Well RAW it is possible by 15th level, with Spell Perfection, as I said in earlier post... And in my experience, when I was able to find a way to do something at a given level, there where always better optimizer then myself able to do it way faster :P

And don't forget, all material for D&D 3.5 is allowed too, not just Pathfinder! And even material from 3.0 if it as not been replaced by a new version from 3.5 or Pathfinder...

I'm not an expert on anything other than paizo material, hence why I hedged my answer in that manor :smallwink: of course if you aren't worried about simply going nova quicken is certainly the best bet, or taking a level of sorc and using quickened arcane mark for all your first level slots (it only specifies the spell has to be on the magus list, not cast with it's spell slots) Caveat, while it hasn't been erratta'd out yet it is an oversight

edit: There are a lot of better ways for a Magus to use his swift action though

[LostKobold]

I don't see how takin a sorcerer level would really help... Quicken modify the spell level by +4... Even with the talent that reduce the final modified spell level by 1, it would still take a 3rd level spell slot...

As a magus, I don't even have 3rd level spell slot until level 7, and i have really few of them... and way better spell to prepare in them then a quickened Arcane Mark!

If i take a level in sorcerer, I'm still just Sorcerer 1 and still don't have more 3rd or 4th level spell slot...

[Ravenica]

Sorry, forgot my DM plays house rules that make quicken useful :smalleek:

[searlefm]

there is a way but its cheese and feat hungry and pointless in every way as far as i can tell (no seriously DON'T DO THIS its pointless)

use Innate Spell to treat that ONE spell as a spell like ability
and Quicken Spell-Like Ability to (you can because that one spell is treated as a spell like ability and you can because its a spell and not a spell like ability because the rules are fairly open) cast is for a shortened duration full round > 1 stranded action, and a stranded action to > a quick action and any quick actions to free actions.
so you COULD convert a spell that takes a quick action into an instant and keeps its initial level but it takes 4 feats for one spell and is really stupid to do so.

[Answerer]

What on earth is a "quick action," and what version of Quicken Spell-like Ability does Full-round->Standard and then Standard->Swift? Cuz the Quicken Spell-like Ability just sets the casting time to Swift, and requires that the original Spell-like Ability have had a casting time of 1 Full-round Action or less.

And I'm not familiar with any version of Innate Spell that makes it take a Full-round Action to begin with.

Finally, Quicken Spell-like Ability requires a Spell-like Ability with a Caster Level of 10.

[LostKobold]

Also this way defeat the purpose... I choose a cantrip spell because it was at-will... Making it an Innate spell would only give me 3 use per day... And I don't think that using a spell-like ability qualify for Spellstrike, as it say "casts a spell" and now you're using a spell-like ability, not casting a spell...

Further, even if Innate spell did not limit the number of time you can cast it in a day, and it would somehow qualify for Spellstrike, then Quicken Spell-Like Ability would still limit it's use...

[fuggerhugger]

I think what you are trying to accomplish would be impossible at low level, otherwise you would be overpowered (there is a reason Quicken Spell has the spell level adjustment on it). But you could get a sword of Spell Storing (found in the DMG). Cast the spell on the sword and you may choose the spell to active on any successful attack, one activated a new spell would need to be cast on the sword.

[Person_Man]

Draconic Claw Feat gives you a natural claw attack that does 1d6 damage if your are Medium (1d4 if you are Small). Any round that you cast a Standard Action spell, you may makes a single claw attack as a Swift Action against a foe that you threaten. So sorta vaguely in the same ballpark of what you're trying to do.

[searlefm]

Person_Man your claws seem the best way to do it at low levels

[mregecko]

The only way I know of to do this is with Metamagic stacking cheese.
It's super feat hungry. You may be able to pull it off bc Pathfinder gives you way more feats than 3.5.

You'll have to get your DM to rule on when you can take Arcane Thesis too... In 3.5 you could take it at 6th level (when you have Knowledge Arcane: 9 ranks), but in Pathfinder you won't get 9 ranks until 9th level. So there will have to be a conversion ruling.

Lvl 1: Quicken Spell
Lvl 3: Sanctum Spell (Tome and Blood)
Lvl 5(Magus Bonus): Invisible Spell (CityScape)
Lvl 5: Easy Metamagic: Quicken Spell (Dragon #325)
Lvl 7: Arcane Thesis: Arcane Mark (PHB2)

I don't see how you could do it before Lvl 7 unless you used flaws and somehow got a feat at 6th level...

ALL OF THIS SAID, I think it's a pretty weird idea.

[Lonely Tylenol]

There's also the Sudden Quicken feat, which quickens a spell without adjusting the spell level, but that's both 3.5 only and 1/day per instance of Sudden Quicken taken as a feat, which is less than fantastic.

[andromax]

...and cast another touch spell as the spell cast, granting me an other free attack (at -2 to touch, as all my previous attack)



I'm not real familiar with PF but how would this
This ability does not grant the magus a free melee attack—such attacks must be made normally work like you're intending, when it says you can't do it. It's telling you that you have to have an un-used attack during your turn in order to use this, so if you were to cast it as a swift action you could do it during a full attack. But if you use a standard action once already to spellstrike, then you will have to find another way to get another attack during a standard action. You'd need something like Snap-kick.

I'm looking at this Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/playtests/paizo---ultimate-magic/magus#TOC-Spell-Combat-Ex-) on the Paizo site, it may be different.

[StreamOfTheSky]

PF has two traits, which stack with each other, which reduce the metamagic level cost of one spell (for one of the traits, the chosen spell must be 3rd level or lower, the other has no limit) by 1. Wayang Spell Hunter and...Magical Lineage, I think?

If you can find a way to drop it another 2, that would do it for you.

EDIT: Ok, d20pfsrd's name changes to comply with paizo's demands are getting pretty annoying. Had to leave the site and google search just to find the above mentioned trait (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/wayang-spellhunter-minata).

[LostKobold]

andromax: The extra attack is not granted by Spellstrike, it is granted by Spell Combat.


Spell Combat (Ex)
At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.



FAQ/Errata
Can a magus use spell combat with cantrips?
Yes. It is not limited to spells of level 1 or higher.

Can a magus use spellstrike to cast a touch spell, move, and make a melee attack with a weapon to deliver the touch spell, all in the same round?
Yes. Other than deploying the spell with a melee weapon attack instead of a melee touch attack, the magus spellstrike ability doesn’t change the normal rules for using touch spells in combat. So, just like casting a touch spell, a magus could use spellstrike to cast a touch spell, take a move toward an enemy, then (as a free action) make a melee attack with his weapon to deliver the spell.

On a related topic, the magus touching his held weapon doesn’t count as “touching anything or anyone” when determining if he discharges the spell. A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell. However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal.

Basically, the spellstrike gives the magus more options when it comes to delivering touch spells; it’s not supposed to make it more difficult for the magus to use touch spells.

[LostKobold]

StreamOfTheSky: true! so basically i could do take:

Trait1: Metamagic Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/wayang-spellhunter-minata) (Arcane Mark) [they seem to have renamed Wayang Spell Hunter]
Trait2: Magical Lineage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage) (Arcane Mark)
Level 1 Feat: Quicken Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/quicken-spell-metamagic---final)
Level 3 Feat: Easy Metamagic (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=%22easy%20metamagic%22%20feat&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.realmshelps.net%2Fcgi-bin%2Ffeats.pl%3FEasy_Metamagic&ei=CHsDUbebK8KB0AGgmIDgBQ&usg=AFQjCNEPDR_qLdJMtATA0YFkBD2AD8z9aQ) (Quicken Spell)
Level 5 Feat: Any
Level 7 Feat: Arcane Thesis (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/arcane-thesis--104/) (Arcane Mark)

Thus Quicken is +4, but becomes +3 with Easy Metamagic. Then because of Arcane Thesis, it becomes +2 because I used a Metamagic on it... And finally the 2 traits apply, making it the same level as started, so 0 level...

Since i have a free Feat (and could have 2 by being human), I could choose a +0 Metamagic feat (Invisible Spell (http://dndtools.eu/feats/cityscape--53/invisible-spell--1684/) comes to mind), and choose a first level spell (shocking grasp) as a focus spell instead of Arcane Mark... Then the math would be the same, but by applying an extra metamagic (with a +0) to the spell, I would be able to have a final adjustment of -1... I could select any +1 metamagic (as Intensified Spell), and because of Arcane Thesis add it "for free", as the addition of a new metamagic give me a -1 canceling the metamagic +1... Meaning I could memorize a Quickened Invisible Intensified Shocking Grasp in a 0-lvl Spell slot, making it usable at will...

Trait1: Metamagic Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/wayang-spellhunter-minata) (Shocking Grasp)
Trait2: Magical Lineage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage) (Shocking Grasp)
Human Bonus Feat: Invisible Spell (http://dndtools.eu/feats/cityscape--53/invisible-spell--1684/)
Level 1 Feat: Quicken Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/quicken-spell-metamagic---final)
Level 3 Feat: Easy Metamagic (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=%22easy%20metamagic%22%20feat&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.realmshelps.net%2Fcgi-bin%2Ffeats.pl%3FEasy_Metamagic&ei=CHsDUbebK8KB0AGgmIDgBQ&usg=AFQjCNEPDR_qLdJMtATA0YFkBD2AD8z9aQ) (Quicken Spell)
Level 5 Feat: Intensified Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/intensified-spell-metamagic)
Level 7 Feat: Arcane Thesis (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/arcane-thesis--104/) (Shocking Grasp)

As said earlier it would allow me to memorize Quickened Invisible Intensified Shocking Grasp as a 0-lvl spell... Meaning at level 7 an extra attack +9d6 dmg (Arcane Thesis give a +2 CL and Intensified Spell augment Shocking Grasp maximum damage to 10d6), as a swift action, that can crit on a 18-20 (using a scimitar) becoming +18d6... (but targeting a normal AC, not a touch AC)

add Empower spell at level 9, to memorize Quickened Invisible Intensified Empowered Shocking Grasp as a first level spell, and at this level the free attack becomes +10d6x1.5, crit on 18-20 for 20d6x1.5...

[Lonely Tylenol]

Since i have a free Feat (and could have 2 by being human), I could choose a +0 Metamagic feat (Invisible Spell (http://dndtools.eu/feats/cityscape--53/invisible-spell--1684/) comes to mind), and choose a first level spell (shocking grasp) as a focus spell instead of Arcane Mark... Then the math would be the same, but by applying an extra metamagic (with a +0) to the spell, I would be able to have a final adjustment of -1...

Well, yes and no.

Here's the errata for Arcane Thesis:


Page 74– Arcane Thesis [Substitution]
Should read, “When you apply any metamagic feats
other than Heighten Spell” Thus if you were to
prepare an empowered maximized magic missile
(assuming magic missile is the spell you choose for
your Arcane Thesis), it would be prepared as a 4th
level spell (+1 level for empowered, down from +2;
and +2 levels for maximized, down from +3).

Page 74 – Arcane Thesis [Omission]
Add the following text to the end of the “Benefit”
section: “A spell cannot be reduced to below its
original level with the use of this feat.”

Bolded for emphasis.

So an Invisible, Cold Substituted Arcane Thesis'd Fireball is not a 1st-level spell, even though the net metamagic modifier is -2--it's still a third-level spell. However, if you were to apply Maximize to an Invisible, Cold Substituted Arcane Thesis'd Fireball, it would still be third level (Invisible = -1, Energy Substitution [cold] = -1, Maximize = +2).

[andromax]

I'm still not seeing any extra attacks gained by casting any spells as a swift action after you've done your full attack.

[LostKobold]

Well Arcane Thesis does NOT reduce the level of the spell below the original... it's the 2 traits that does! And they don't prevent it in any way!

[andromax]

So an Invisible, Cold Substituted Arcane Thesis'd Fireball is not a 1st-level spell, even though the net metamagic modifier is -2--it's still a third-level spell. However, if you were to apply Maximize to an Invisible, Cold Substituted Arcane Thesis'd Fireball, it would still be third level (Invisible = -1, Energy Substitution [cold] = -1, Maximize = +2).
Would a common (DM's) Interpretation of that mean that any given metamagic feat couldn't be reduced (as in, negative metamagic levels) below the spells effective level?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well Arcane Thesis does NOT reduce the level of the spell below the original... it's the 2 traits that does! And they don't prevent it in any way!

Uh...

From Magical Lineage:


Editor's Note
Magical Lineage was never intended as a way for you to actually lower a spell's level. It was put in to allow you to reduce the increase from a metamagic feat.

[source] (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ohdf&page=2?Potential-Shocking-Grasp-as-a-Level-0-spell#92)

From Metamagic Master:


Editor's Note
It is likely that the same clarification Jason B. made for the Magical Lineage trait (see [Source] link below) also applies to this trait but until he or someone else at Paizo states as such, consider the following just our assumption:

"This trait was never intended as a way for you to actually lower a spell's level. It was put in to allow you to reduce the increase from a metamagic feat. So, no unlimited magic missiles. I will see to it that the language of this ability is clarified soon and I will get this added to the FAQ."

[source] (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ohdf&page=2?Potential-Shocking-Grasp-as-a-Level-0-spell#92)

So actually, they sort of do prevent it.

EDIT:


Would a common (DM's) Interpretation of that mean that any given metamagic feat couldn't be reduced (as in, negative metamagic levels) below the spells effective level?

Not common enough. The commonly held believe is that the net modifier cannot reach zero. It doesn't modify the metamagic feat--it modifies the spell.

[andromax]

Well Arcane Thesis does NOT reduce the level of the spell below the original... it's the 2 traits that does! And they don't prevent it in any way!

Wow.. yeah.. and here I thought that PF was supposed to be more balanced.. that feat is lulzy.
edit:oic errata incoming

[LostKobold]

andromax: it comes from casting a touch spell. Everytime you cast a touch spell, you get a free touch attack to make on the round you cast it.


Touch Spells in Combat

Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn.

[andromax]

I understand that. But your spell strike said it couldn't grant extra attacks and your combat spell said it could only be used with any spell of a standard action.. so I'm still wondering how you are getting an extra attack.

[LostKobold]

Lonely Tylenol: The Editor's note are not errata, just note... By RAW it is still legal. I never said it was RAI, or needed to be ;)

As for Arcane Thesis, by Raw it can reduce an individual Metamagic below 1, so long as the final modification doesn't get to less then +1. Then both traits apply.

Yes, it is true that really few GM would accept it, but it's still ok by RAW, at least until they do official errata on the 2 traits!

[Lonely Tylenol]

Lonely Tylenol: The Editor's note are not errata, just note... By RAW it is still legal. I never said it was RAI, or needed to be ;)

...But the source of the editor's note is the designer who released these two traits.

...Technically, it is RAW legal until a publication of errata follows it. But trying to sneak this past your DM without at least letting them know that the designer has stated his intention was never that this reduce a spell to a lower level than original, and that it is going to be errata'd as soon as official errata is released, is downright skeevy.

[LostKobold]

andromax: as stated earlier, Spellstrike is not giving me an extra attack, it just allow me to do a touch attack i have from another source (here it's the casting of a touch spell as a swift action that grant me a free touch attack on the round I cast it).

So let's explain it plainly:

1. Cast a quickened touch spell: takes a swift action. By casting the spell I get a free touch attack in the current round, as stated in the rules.
2. Use Spellstrike with this free touch attack. It doesnt give me an additionnal attack, it just REPLACE the touch attack I would have made otherwise. I must target the normal AC instead of the touch AC

Action spent: 1 Swift action, Action Left: Full Round action.

3. Use Spell Combat (full-round action) to do the following:
.....3A) Cast Shocking Grasp (a spell with a casting time: 1 standard action).
.....3B) Since I just cast a touch spell (shocking grasp) I get a Free touch attack on the same round as the spell being cast. Because of Spell combat I would get a -2 on the attack.
.....3C) Use Spellstrike with this free touch attack. It doesnt give me an additionnal attack, it just REPLACE the touch attack I would have made otherwise. I still get the -2 on the attack and must target the normal AC instead of the touch AC
.....3D) Make a full attack, but with all my attack at -2 because of Spell Combat. By 9th level I would have a BAB of +6/+1, meaning 2 attack with my weapons...

End of round.

So basically I would get (add the str modifier, size modifier and other modifier to touch with the weapon like weapon focus or anything other):

1 attack at +6 doing weapon dmg + the shocking grasp (9d6 electricity as stated earlier)
1 attack at +4 doing weapon dmg + the shocking grasp (9d6 electricity as stated earlier)
1 attack at +4 doing weapon dmg (+ the shocking grasp if previous attack missed)
1 attack at -1 doing weapon dmg (+ the shocking grasp if both previous attack missed)

giving me 4 attack instead of 2

[LostKobold]

Lonely Tylenol: Never said anyone should actually try to do this without notifying the DM! Just that it was still RAW to do it.

And in the game I build this character for, my DM see no problem with it, as long as it is RAW... The game will be pretty broken anyway... Each player will be optimized to ridiculous degree, and monster being far stronger then they are in the books... Each player is a Gestalt character (with one of the two class being selected from a restricted list), the stats are super high (like 18, 18, 18, 16, 14, 12 plus racial modifiers!!!), we all have the most broken 3.0 feat for free (Knowledge Devotion (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-champion--57/knowledge-devotion--1727/)) plus another bonus feat of our choice...

[andromax]

So let's explain it plainly:

1. Cast a quickened touch spell: takes a swift action. By casting the spell I get a free touch attack in the current round, as stated in the rules.
2. Use Spellstrike with this free touch attack. It doesnt give me an additionnal attack, it just REPLACE the touch attack I would have made otherwise. I must target the normal AC instead of the touch AC

This is dubious at best.. spell strike specifically states that it doesn't let you make an extra melee attack outside of what you are able to do normally.

Also your intentions of trying to exploit a feat that is essentially already errata'd for all intents and purposes kind of goes to show that you aren't really concerned with any sort of RAW/RAI so do whatcha want, lol

[Ravenica]

nah it's legit any quickened touch spell allows that attack (ie the touch attack) all the ability does is add in a weapon strike (making hit regular ac instead which offests the extra attack benefit) yeah it is cheesey to use a nondamaging touch spell to get an extra attack but its legit

[LostKobold]

andromax: I'm concerned by RAW only, as stated in previous post.

And the part that is bugging you is not dubious at best, in fact it's the only part that is RAI...

I'll quote again, and bold important information:


Spellstrike (Su)
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon’s critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier. See FAQ/Errata at right for more information.

This part show that Spellstrike is INTENDED to use with Spell Combat...


FAQ/Errata
Can a magus use spellstrike to cast a touch spell, move, and make a melee attack with a weapon to deliver the touch spell, all in the same round?

Yes. Other than deploying the spell with a melee weapon attack instead of a melee touch attack, the magus spellstrike ability doesn’t change the normal rules for using touch spells in combat. So, just like casting a touch spell, a magus could use spellstrike to cast a touch spell, take a move toward an enemy, then (as a free action) make a melee attack with his weapon to deliver the spell.

On a related topic, the magus touching his held weapon doesn’t count as “touching anything or anyone” when determining if he discharges the spell. A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell. However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal.

Basically, the spellstrike gives the magus more options when it comes to delivering touch spells; it’s not supposed to make it more difficult for the magus to use touch spells.

This part is explaining the same thing as I have...

[LostKobold]

Lonely Tylenol: And it's true that when the errata on both traits will come out (and it will sooner or later!), it will be impossible to lower shocking grasp to 0th level spell slot... But it wont prevent to add Maximize Spell to the Shocking grasp, Making it still a level 1 spell (so not less then original level), but still be incredibly powerfull and RAW even while using a 1st level spell slot to cast!

Replacing Empower Spell by Maximize Spell at level 9, will allow you to memorize Quickened Invisible Intensified Maximized Shocking Grasp as a first level spell, and at this level the free attack becomes +60, crit on 18-20 for +120...

[LostKobold]

oops, it would be a level 2 spell slot... And would still be a level 2 spell slot even while adding Empower Spell later making it +60+(10d6*0.5) and on critical +120+(20d6*0.5)

[andromax]

andromax: I'm concerned by RAW only, as stated in previous post.

And the part that is bugging you is not dubious at best, in fact it's the only part that is RAI...

I'll quote again, and bold important information:



This part show that Spellstrike is INTENDED to use with Spell Combat...



This part is explaining the same thing as I have...

Fair enough. I follow you.

I guess with the investment required its not that borked considering most caster shinanigens, though the only way you're gonna be able to do it raw at 5 level is with a wand. And I'm considering that q&a to be raw, whether your DM does or not. :smalltongue:

[andromax]

Have you spent much time at the table with this char? how does he compare to a duskblade?

[LostKobold]

I'm still waiting for the game to begin... The first session should be Febuary 4th if everything goes well...

And it could not be legal by RAW at level 5 with wand, because you're not casting the spell, you're activating the wand.. Thus you can't use Spellstrike with the spell if it comes from the wand...

You can still memorize a Quickened Shocking Grasp in a 2nd level spell slot tough, wich would normally be impossible without those feats and traits... And if replacing Intensified Spell by Empower spell, you could memorize a 1st level Empowered Shocking Grasp, wich is pretty good too!

By memorizing Arcane mark as a 0 level spell, you ensure to always be able to do your Combat Casting/Spellstrike, even when out of spell of first level or more... It's not a swift action, but still usefull...

The build can only get to is full potential when hitting level 7 and taking Arcane Thesis... In fact you could take it at level 6 if you found a way to get a feat at this level... but I don't know of any...

[andromax]

Well for what it's worth there much more valuable things to do with a swift action than make attacks.. you could always move. Consider travel devotion, the swift=movement boots from the MiC, or martial study: sudden leap.

[LostKobold]

Well, since I will go for Intensified Shocking Grasp casting instead of Arcane Mark, it's not just attacking, it's nuking...

I'm using a +1 Spell Storing Falchion [thanks to Magus Arcana (Enruned Great Weapon)], and with my Arcane Pool I add Keen and flaming, meaning I do 2d4+1d6+11 (crit on 15-20/x2)...

Since the Weapon is spell storing, i begin the day by casting an Intensified Shocking Grasp into it (0-lvl spell for me, so no resource expenditure).

So at my level (5), as an opening attack I could cast Quickened Shocking grasp for 2d4+5d6(Quickened Shocking Grasp)+5d6(Spell Stored Shocking Grasp)+1d6(flaming)+11, and threaten a critical on 15-20...
average dmg: 7 + 17.5 + 17.5 + 3.5 + 11 = 56.5 dmg

On a critical the damage becomes 4d4+10d6(Quickened Shocking Grasp)+10d6(Spell Stored Shocking Grasp)+1d6(flaming)+22
average dmg: 14 + 35 + 35 + 3.5 + 22 = 109.5 dmg

and this is as a swift action... Then I can Full Attack with Spellstrike, giving me 2 additional attack, the first being:

2d4+5d6(Quickened Shocking Grasp)+1d6(flaming)+11, and threaten a critical on 15-20...
average dmg: 7 + 17.5 + 3.5 + 11 = 39 dmg

On a critical the damage becomes 4d4+10d6(Quickened Shocking Grasp)+10d6(Spell Stored Shocking Grasp)+1d6(flaming)+22
average dmg: 14 + 35 + 3.5 + 22 = 74.5 dmg

and the other being only the weapon:

2d4+1d6(flaming)+11, and threaten a critical on 15-20
average dmg: 7 + 3.5 + 11 = 21.5 dmg

On a critical the damage becomes 4d4+1d6(flaming)+22
average dmg: 14 + 3.5 + 22 = 39.5 dmg

For an average total damage of
109.5 + 74.5 + 39.5 = 223.5 dmg

if all attack crit (not unlikely with a 15-20 threat range and a +3 to confirm critical hit...)

[andromax]

For an average total damage of
109.5 + 74.5 + 39.5 = 223.5 dmg

While this is cool and all... that damage at EL 5 is a bit overkill, is it not? Your class is obviously PURE damage per round and I respect that. It speaks to my heart. But consider the fact that creatures aren't even going to have Hit Points totaling 1/4 the amount of damage you are trying to do. How is that optimized?

Focus on ways to survive. Focus on ways to not get stunned/dazed so that you don't have to sit out a whole agonizing round. Focus on ways to keep yourself from taking damage when 3 brutes charge you.

You've got the offense covered coming out of the gate. Optimization in your case is making the total package. More-over, optimization is not showing your true potential to your DM until he tries to bring you to your knees and you're like, "actually, bitch, I ignore that difficult terrain, and that evard's black tentacles can suck my nuts, and that greater blink is ignored b/c of X, and by the way that threatens a critical."

[LostKobold]

andromax: in a normal level 5 game I would be in agreement with you... but the DM stated to us that his monster would be way more stronger then in a normal game (a lot more HP, better AC, save, BAB, additionnal ability...)

So this kind of damage may not be overkill at all for this game...

And as stated earlier in another post, all characters are Gestalt (in my case I'm Magus//Warblade), and it gives me other things I could do with combat maneuver...

In fact Warblade, as i found while building this character does not mix well with Magus as most of his damage dealing ability comes from taking a standard or full-round action, preventing the magus from using Spell Combat and one of those together... So being able to cast my Shocking Grasp as a swift action actually let met use most of my Warblade stuff while still benefiting from Spellstrike.

It takes away all the boost maneuver on the round I do it, but I'm not forced to do it every round... If i judge a boost would be better in the situation, I simply do not use the Quickened spell, and then use the boost with Spell Combat OR a maneuver...

I'm still working on the maneuver I'll take, but I'll try to focus on those giving me movement or resistance or "cleansing" from negative effect...

I'll have access to all the normal Discipline normally available to a Warblade, plus Desert Wind (thanks to a feat granting me the Burning Blade maneuver and access to this Discipline from level 1 [DM's ruling of how Martial Study feat works...])

If you have any suggestion...

[Answerer]

Wow.. yeah.. and here I thought that PF was supposed to be more balanced.. that feat is lulzy.
Ahaha, haha. Sorry, no, Paizo's been lying to you. It's not. It's not generally appreciably worse, but it's certainly not particularly better.

[LostKobold]

I disagree... it's way more balanced, as long as you don't take D&D 3.5 material on top of Pathfinder material...

When you do, you get all the abuse of D&D 3.5 (an aherrant number), and add to this the rare off Pathfinder (just a couple, and soon to be errata-ed...)

[TuggyNE]

I disagree... it's way more balanced, as long as you don't take D&D 3.5 material on top of Pathfinder material...

When you do, you get all the abuse of D&D 3.5 (an aherrant number), and add to this the rare off Pathfinder (just a couple, and soon to be errata-ed...)

Let's not get into this, OK? There's a bunch of examples people will inevitably bring up of wacky things in PF balance, and arguments that you can bring in only the best 3.5 stuff, and on and on, and then five pages later there will be a lock, and no one wants that. :smalltongue:

Besides, chocolate ice cream is best.