High level caster, versus large cities?

[silverwolfer]

How much damage could a level 20 caster, do against cities like Forgotten realms waterdeep, or eberron stormreach , before the cities could properly defend against said caster?

[Story]

That depends on how much optimization is allowed. In TO, you just do an Apocalypse From The Sky with some way of ignoring material components.

As for slightly less cheesy stuff, Persisted Widened Earthquake anyone? For that matter, Miracle could probably just level the city if you're willing to pay XP, but that's up to DM adjucation.

Anyway, amount of time isn't likely to be an issue. If you use the RAW interpretation of Greater Spell Glyph, you can just drop hundreds of Earthquake Glyphs around town during a Time Stop.

[JoshuaZ]

That depends on how much optimization is allowed. In TO, you just do an Apocalypse From The Sky with some way of ignoring material components.




Locate city bomb is more cheesy and actually does more if done well.

[Story]

Really? From what I've heard, Apocalypse From The Sky can basically obliterate an entire country. The Locate City Bomb is limited to 200 miles and doesn't do much damage to structures.

[silverwolfer]

from the sky is 20d6, and you have to destroy a relic and takes all day to cast.

City bomb leaves you a city to plunder while everyone is dead.

[Carth]

Locate city bomb also doesn't work by RAW.

Persisted undermaster allows you to use xorn movement (earth glide, basically) to wander around underground while firing off earthquakes once per round.

[Aharon]

Greater Spirit Binding (Complete Arcane) for Spirit of the Land => Earthquake at will. Get a few of those, let them all attack in the same round. Assuming the city's own high level casters don't divine your plan and prevent it, or there's some mythal or other widereaching defense in place, or lots of other ors, you can level the whole city this way.

[thethird]

An arcane thesised fimbulwinter with flash frost, invisible spell, lord of the uttercold and fell drain?

Most commoners are going to die (and raise) in the round of casting the others might last for a little longer.... but they will eventually die. Regardless the city is done for 4d12 weeks (once the time passes go back deal with the shadows and you have a nice empty city to fill as you see fit)

[Story]

Shouldn't they be wights, not shadows?

Anyway, things get a lot easier if you only want to kill the people and don't care about destroying the buildings.


P.S. Leaflet bombing (Maximized Enlarged Widened Fell Drain) Explosive Runes is also fun, though it is difficult to set them all off yourself quickly.

[Clistenes]

1.-Create a few infectous undead able to control their spawn, like Shadows, Wraiths, Spectres, Crypt Chanters, Bane Wraith, Dread Wraiths, Umbral Creatures, Wights, Forsaken Shell, Slaughter Wight, Visages,..etc., as much as your magic allows you to control.

2.-Round some humanoids and have your undead slaves turn them into slaves under your control. Repeat until you have an army.

3.-Create a permanent Teleportation Circle that teleports anybody who steps into it to the city or, if it isn't possible, close enough to it.

4.-Make a deal with some nasty extra-dimensional fiend and tell him that you are going to offer him a big sacrifice, and that he must gather all his minions and wait for your word.

5.-Cast Shrink Object on many giant rocks (same command word for all of them), every day during a lot of days. Put all those into a Bag of Holding. Cast Fire Trap on some small steel boxes, crafted in a way that they will open if they are hit hard. Put the little steel boxes in the bag of holding too.

6.-Cast Air Bubble so you can breath at great height, were the air is thin. Fly or Teleport a few miles above the city, as high as you can. Then throw the rocks and boxes, shouting the command word. The rocks are like bombs, and the boxes like incenciary bombs.

7.-Send your undead army the order to attack. They all step into the circle, teleport to the city and start the carnage.

8.-Take land, cast Gate and allow your fiendish allies to cross to the Prime Material.

9.-Cast Improved Invisibility and have fun casting Confusion on the crowd. Casting Obscuring Mist and Pyrotechnics will also help confuse people and slow the defending forces.

10.-Profit.

[Elycium]

1.-Create a few infectous undead able to control their spawn, like Shadows, Wraiths, Spectres, Crypt Chanters, Bane Wraith, Dread Wraiths, Umbral Creatures, Wights, Forsaken Shell, Slaughter Wight, Visages,..etc., as much as your magic allows you to control.

2.-Round some humanoids and have your undead slaves turn them into slaves under your control. Repeat until you have an army.

3.-Create a permanent Teleportation Circle that teleports anybody who steps into it to the city or, if it isn't possible, close enough to it.

4.-Make a deal with some nasty extra-dimensional fiend and tell him that you are going to offer him a big sacrifice, and that he must gather all his minions and wait for your word.

5.-Cast Shrink Object on many giant rocks (same command word for all of them), every day during a lot of days. Put all those into a Bag of Holding. Cast Fire Trap on some small steel boxes, crafted in a way that they will open if they are hit hard. Put the little steel boxes in the bag of holding too.

6.-Cast Air Bubble so you can breath at great height, were the air is thin. Fly or Teleport a few miles above the city, as high as you can. Then throw the rocks and boxes, shouting the command word. The rocks are like bombs, and the boxes like incenciary bombs.

7.-Send your undead army the order to attack. They all step into the circle, teleport to the city and start the carnage.

8.-Take land, cast Gate and allow your fiendish allies to cross to the Prime Material.

9.-Cast Improved Invisibility and have fun casting Confusion on the crowd. Casting Obscuring Mist and Pyrotechnics will also help confuse people and slow the defending forces.

10.-Profit.

This is some evil s*it what you got here D:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Druid, Wild Shape into some sort of bird (Legendary Eagle), spam (Rod of Maximized) Call Avalanche from Frostburn. That will topple buildings and buy everyone, and you can throw in some Blood Snow from that same book for good measure. Nobody will even know what happened.

[Greenish]

Stormreach, if my memory serves, doesn't really have anyone who could stop a level 20 caster (except the Scar that Abides and other forgotten horrors like that), so the caster could cut the whole place to ribbons with an adamantine dagger if she so wished.

Stormreach doesn't even have anyone they could rely on coming to aid them.

[Eldariel]

The simplest spell of mass destruction is of course Control Winds; Tornadoes can do quite the damage. It gets more finessed from there, of course (and Control Weather can naturally do some stuff too).

Though a city like Waterdeep has so many high level casters and protections anyone who tries to raise their hand against the whole city will die a billion deaths before they finish the thought provided they are not in a divination-proof demiplane.

[Elderand]

All this is good and all, but why not use your powers to mindrape the ruler of the city into becoming your puppet ?

*Warning, additional step may be necessery depending on the ruler defenses

[Story]

This is some evil s*it what you got here D:

But it takes far too long. If you can't level the city in 6 seconds, you're not trying hard enough.

[Clistenes]

The simplest spell of mass destruction is of course Control Winds; Tornadoes can do quite the damage. It gets more finessed from there, of course (and Control Weather can naturally do some stuff too).

Though a city like Waterdeep has so many high level casters and protections anyone who tries to raise their hand against the whole city will die a billion deaths before they finish the thought provided they are not in a divination-proof demiplane.

Mind Blank could protect you from divinations. I guess Contact Other Plane or Commune could be used to predict the attack and locate the undead army before you hit.

Waterdeep is a bit of a special case, with all those wards and epic casters. Anyway, another high level spellcaster could probably enter the city and provoke quite a lot of havok before being forced to escape. Attack a few times, and you will ruin the city even if you can't destroy it.


All this is good and all, but why not use your powers to mindrape the ruler of the city into becoming your puppet ?

*Warning, additional step may be necessery depending on the ruler defenses

That's a completely different situation. If you want to dominate, not to destroy, the only thing that matters is, "does the ruler have the support of a spellcaster as high or higher level than you?" If not, it's an auto-win.


But it takes far too long. If you can't level the city in 6 seconds, you're not trying hard enough.

But my method requires zero cheese.

[Eldariel]

Mind Blank could protect you from divinations. I guess Contact Other Plane or Commune could be used to predict the attack locate the undead army before you hit.

Mhm, the problem isn't the divinations that target you, it's the divinations that target people in the know.


Waterdeep is a bit of a special case, with all those wards and epic casters. Anyway, another high level spellcaster could probably enter the city and provoke quite a lot of havok before being forced to escape. Attack a few times, and you will ruin the city even if you can't destroy it.

Rule #1: You do not mess with epic casters unless you're an epic caster. It's about as smart as messing with Gods. After all, an epic caster can find out everything that's going on in one round and appear and end you in the same round. Since he's epic and inside his own wards you probably don't stand a prayer.


All this is good and all, but why not use your powers to mindrape the ruler of the city into becoming your puppet ?

*Warning, additional step may be necessery depending on the ruler defenses

Ruling is such a pain. Much simpler to just destroy everything except those actually worthy of ruling. Now that I think of it, this specific problem is why Gilgamesh wanted the Grail in FSN.

[Clistenes]

Mhm, the problem isn't the divinations that target you, it's the divinations that target people in the know.

Nobody but you need to know.



Rule #1: You do not mess with epic casters unless you're an epic caster. It's about as smart as messing with Gods. After all, an epic caster can find out everything that's going on in one round and appear and end you in the same round. Since he's epic and inside his own wards you probably don't stand a prayer.

Well, yes, if Epic Casting is allowed, nobody can win against epic characters. On the other hand, if Epic Casting isn't allowed, at least for npcs, there isn't so much difference between a 20 level character with nines and a 21 or 22 level character.

[JoshuaZ]

Locate city bomb also doesn't work by RAW.


Some people have claimed that. I don't find any of the arguments against it working convincing.

[Greenish]

All this is good and all, but why not use your powers to mindrape the ruler of the city into becoming your puppet ?

*Warning, additional step may be necessery depending on the ruler defensesNow, that might cause some trouble if done in Stormreach, since you'd end up subjugating a minion of Lords of the Dusk or the Quori (or both), and either group has enough level 20 (or above) casters to be a serious threat. They might not care about the city, but they're not very happy with poachers.


But my method requires zero cheese.Cheese is relative. Fire Trap bombs and Shrunk boulders dropped from above would be considered cheesy on some campaigns. In others, Locate City bomb (or Locate City based wightocalypse) would be applauded as neat moves.

[ericgrau]

A very large city probably has 1 or more high level casters of its own.

So basically whatever damage you can do in a few rounds. 2 rounds if they have magical detection set up. How much that is depends on lactose tolerance as pointed out. You could at minimum kill dozens of low level people (if not hundreds to thousands), but that's not all that special for any level 20 adventurer regardless of class. A smart caster might want to be more subtle or take on weaker targets where he won't be divined and met with other high level characters.

[Carth]

Some people have claimed that. I don't find any of the arguments against it working convincing.

Well, I haven't seen a convincing argument that it does work, either. For something that's so blatantly against RAI, it had better be on completely solid RAW, and it isn't.

[JoshuaZ]

Well, I haven't seen a convincing argument that it does work, either. For something that's so blatantly against RAI, it had better be on completely solid RAW, and it isn't.

Which steps do you consider to be not solid?

[Greenish]

Which steps do you consider to be not solid?The usual dispute is about the shape of the effect of Locate City, that is, whether it's a flat disc or a sphere.

[Eldariel]

Nobody but you need to know.

Gods don't care who needs to know. High-level spellcasters can easily commune with deities.

[Story]

There's also the question of what is considered a target for purposes of Flash Frost.

[Carth]

Locate city is not a valid target for flash frost, because locate city does not "affect" an area, it's a divination spell.

Flash frost only does its extra damage to "targets," but locate city has none.

The spell also ceases to be a valid target for flash frost once you use energy substitution to get rid of the cold descriptor, in order to be able to apply born of three thunders.

Material components are expended in the casting process. Therefore, the spell does not have the cold descriptor until after it has been cast, and thus you can't put feats requiring an energy descriptor on it. Snowcasting only lets you benefit from things such as frozen magic and cold spell specialization, basically. An incantatrix could retroactively add such feats to spells with a duration, I suppose.

If it were carefully examined I'm sure more holes could be found. But frankly, the worst part about locate city bomb is that it is routinely given as a serious reply. Even if it were RAW legal, suggesting its use is about as helpful as suggesting drowning as healing. It's the sort of thing that's amusing because by the rules it ostensibly works, nobody should seriously consider ever actually using it.

[Clistenes]

Gods don't care who needs to know. High-level spellcasters can easily commune with deities.

I specifically mentioned that the plan's main weakness was the use of Commune to predict the attack and locate the undead army.

Of course, what deities know varies from setting to setting. They are supposed to know anything related to their portfolio in advance, but, how narrow is that? If you don't tell about your plan even to your undead minions (until the moment of the attack) and you are protected by Mind Blank, would they be able to predict the details of it?.

[Story]

The spell also ceases to be a valid target for flash frost once you use energy substitution to get rid of the cold descriptor, in order to be able to apply born of three thunders.

Even if that were true (I don't think it is by RAW), Born of Three Thunders isn't really necessary. Just slap Fell Drain on it and enjoy your Wightpocalypse.

[Carth]

Even if that were true (I don't think it is by RAW), Born of Three Thunders isn't really necessary. Just slap Fell Drain on it and enjoy your Wightpocalypse.

Born of three thunders is necessary to give the spell a reflex save, and thus become a valid target for explosive spell. Flash frost explicitly requires the cold descriptor in the present tense, I'm not sure why you think it's okay to put it on a spell that no longer has it. Edit: plus the other reasons I mentioned that flash frost is invalid anyway.

[JoshuaZ]

The usual dispute is about the shape of the effect of Locate City, that is, whether it's a flat disc or a sphere.


This is one of the more valid complaints. The problem is that if one really things it is a flat disc then the spell becomes nearly useless in any non-flat terrain and that's clearly not what it is intended. Moreover, many spells that no one would ever object to having explosive spell apply to have the same issue.



Locate city is not a valid target for flash frost, because locate city does not "affect" an area, it's a divination spell.

Affect isn't a defined term in this way but that's RAI. Moreover, this means that one couldn't use Flash Frost for things like scrying which from seem to be the specific sort of thing it is designed for. So even in an RAI context this is a problem.



Flash frost only does its extra damage to "targets," but locate city has none.

The wording here is actually a bit weird since it talks about "all targets in the area" which isn't a standard wording since normally target doesn't refer to area effects. But I agree that there's some issue here.



The spell also ceases to be a valid target for flash frost once you use energy substitution to get rid of the cold descriptor, in order to be able to apply born of three thunders.

Sorry, I don't follow this logic. First, effects are applied in order. The fact that one effect after it is applied makes another effect no longer valid does't make it go away by anything in RAW. The not strictly RAW but useful analogy for how to naturally read it is akin to how templates can apply in an order even when later templates break down. This claim frankly sounds like motivated cognition that would't ever be made if it were not for a goal of not wanting the LCB to work.



Material components are expended in the casting process. Therefore, the spell does not have the cold descriptor until after it has been cast, and thus you can't put feats requiring an energy descriptor on it. Snowcasting only lets you benefit from things such as frozen magic and cold spell specialization, basically. An incantatrix could retroactively add such feats to spells with a duration, I suppose.

This actually directly contradicts the wording of Snowcasting which says you can do this:


If you add a handful of snow or ice as an additional material component to a spell when you cast it, the spell gains the cold descriptor. This does not actually change the nature of the spell you cast; a fireball cast with this feat still deals fire damage, but since it also carries the cold
descriptor, it can be augmented by a number of feats listed in this chapter, such as Cold Focus and Frozen Magic.

Your reasoning directly contradicts that.



If it were carefully examined I'm sure more holes could be found.

If you mean more questionable interpretations that would't be unreasonable for a DM to invoke in an actual game, yes. But that's not an issue of RAW



But frankly, the worst part about locate city bomb is that it is routinely given as a serious reply. Even if it were RAW legal, suggesting its use is about as helpful as suggesting drowning as healing. It's the sort of thing that's amusing because by the rules it ostensibly works, nobody should seriously consider ever actually using it.


No disagreement that actually using it would be ridiculous, because it is clearly a rule failure not something that should occur in any game.

[Eldariel]

I specifically mentioned that the plan's main weakness was the use of Commune to predict the attack and locate the undead army.

Of course, what deities know varies from setting to setting. They are supposed to know anything related to their portfolio in advance, but, how narrow is that? If you don't tell about your plan even to your undead minions (until the moment of the attack) and you are protected by Mind Blank, would they be able to predict the details of it?.

Portfolio Sense doesn't interact with any particular being, it simply shows the future. A deity of magic will probably know about your city-razing plans, as might deities with e.g. Protection domain.

[Greenish]

The problem is that if one really things it is a flat disc then the spell becomes nearly useless in any non-flat terrain and that's clearly not what it is intended.It wouldn't be the first time that RAI and RAW are at odds with each other. :smalltongue:

But, well, I haven't really looked into it, that's just something that gets brought up every time someone mentions Locate City bomb.

[JaronK]

Just looking at my current character (he's 11, but I know how he'll be built... Binder 1/Archivist 3/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Anima Mage 10/Tenebrous Apostate 5) he'd teleport into the city into some hard to find location of no special importance and spend a day fortifying it (maybe digging down a ways to be hard to locate). He'd then spam divinations to make sure no one was going to interrupt him (using Zceryll's summons to get divination spells). Then he'd cast, without material components, Twinned Apocalypse from the Sky, doing 20d6 sonic damage to everyone within at least 390 miles (after making sure he'd survive it) while keeping his undead minions in his Enveloping Pit. Then he'd hunt down the survivors. After that, he'd use a spell stitched undead to use Animate Dread Warrior on the skilled members of that town, turning them into his eternal slaves.

He'd have to be really pissed off to want to do that, though.

JaronK

[Carth]

Affect isn't a defined term in this way but that's RAI. Moreover, this means that one couldn't use Flash Frost for things like scrying which from seem to be the specific sort of thing it is designed for. So even in an RAI context this is a problem.

What? Flash frost was designed for...scrying? I don't follow at all, are there typos in there? It can't be applied to alarm either. :smalleek: It seems pretty obvious that it's meant for blasting spells. Flash frost cannot be applied to locate city.




Sorry, I don't follow this logic. First, effects are applied in order. The fact that one effect after it is applied makes another effect no longer valid does't make it go away by anything in RAW. The not strictly RAW but useful analogy for how to naturally read it is akin to how templates can apply in an order even when later templates break down.
This actually directly contradicts the wording of Snowcasting which says you can do this

Metamagic feats don't have an order like templates. They don't take place separately, they all take place as part of the same spell. You're not doing one then the other, you're doing them all at once. You're trying to build a three story house by taking out the first story and putting it on top of the second story.


This claim frankly sounds like motivated cognition that would't ever be made if it were not for a goal of not wanting the LCB to work.

This claim frankly sounds like motivated cognition that wouldn't ever be made if it were not for a goal of getting an overwhelmingly dubious trick to work.



No disagreement that actually using it would be ridiculous, because it is clearly a rule failure not something that should occur in any game.

So go back and edit your initial post, put it in blue, or some other indication that it's not intended to be serious or helpful.

[Story]

Then he'd cast, without material components, Twinned Apocalypse from the Sky, doing 20d6 sonic damage to everyone within at least 390 miles

Don't forget to Empower and Maximize it. You can even do this without cheese by visiting a magical location first (2k for 7 uses of Sudden Maximize and Sudden Empower, unlimited recharges).

If you're using MM reducers, you should also add Widen, Energy Admixture, and Fell Drain.

Also you could make half the damage City damage for the irony.

[JaronK]

Don't forget to Empower and Maximize it. You can even do this without cheese by visiting a magical location first (2k for 7 uses of Sudden Maximize and Sudden Empower, unlimited recharges).

The character I have isn't going to have those feats, I suspect. Not in the plan But what magical location is that?


If you're using MM reducers, you should also add Widen, Energy Admixture, and Fell Drain.

Also you could make half the damage City damage for the irony.

I lack the feats for that. This is my actual character... He can do three free metamagics per day, but I imagine the others would be Persistent spells like Consumptive Field and, at that level, Shapechange. But he does have Twin Spell to play with.


What? Flash frost was designed for...scrying? I don't follow at all, are there typos in there? It can't be applied to alarm either. :smalleek: It seems pretty obvious that it's meant for blasting spells. Flash frost cannot be applied to locate city.

Flash Frost Spell is meant to be applied to spells that affect a large area but don't do damage, so it gives them a damage element... at least I think that was the point. Obviously, we're talking RAI when we start talking about what something was "meant" for and we can never be completely sure unless the designer pops up and says something.


Metamagic feats don't have an order like templates. They don't take place separately, they all take place as part of the same spell. You're not doing one then the other, you're doing them all at once. You're trying to build a three story house by taking out the first story and putting it on top of the second story.

Actually, yes they do. You always get to chose the order of application. This is why Extended Persistent spells work... you persist first (24 hours) then extend (to 48).

JaronK

[Story]

It's the Athenaeum of Boccob (Complete Champion page 151).

And I'm pretty sure RAI on Flash Frost was to make damaging cold spells do more damage. Hence the use of the word "extra".

[Carth]

I hate to be so brusque, but how on earth is the intent of flash frost unclear?


Your spells that use cold and ice to damage your foes leave behind a thin layer of slippery frost.

I don't see any possible argument that it's intended to work for non-damaging spells.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

For this, the 'heavy' of the piece is going to be a Wiz5/clr1//Dewomerkeeper10/Archmage4 with Arcane Devotee for the Fire domain.

The base spell is going to be Fire Storm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireStorm.htm). The reason for this is:


Area: Two 10-ft. cubes per level (S)

So at level 20, that's 40 10' cubes. That alone is enough to torch most villages.


Right, so now let's metamagic it.

Going with Dewomerkeeper to help mitigate metamagic, we then turn to Arcane Thesis and several of the 'usual suspects' to mitigate metamagic feats.

Widen Spell doubles "Any numeric measurements of the spell’s area increase by 100%.". So while the 10' cubes would clearly be doubled to 20' cubes, the number 2(CL) is also a numeric measurement of the spells area, and so could also be doubled.

So at CL 20, this is 80 20' cubes. This easily beats the pants off of Earthquake's area of effect.

But we're not done yet. Thanks to the capstone on Dewomerkeeper and Arcane Thesis, anything with a CL +2 or less is simply free of charge.

Let's do some judicious CL boosting.

Let's say we pick up Southern Magician to allow arcane spells to be considered Divine. Then we can Divine Spellpower the spell to redonkulous levels. Oh, and we can cast it as a (Su) instead of a Spell, just to make it extra difficult to prevent or ignore.

So now we're looking at a CL of around 30, just to be conservative, or 120 20' cubes. That's an area which is larger than 200' square.

Now add +4 from the Archmage levels. So now that's CL 34

Toss on the ioun stone for another +1, so now that's CL 35, or 140 20' squares.

Now apply Searing Spell so that it bypasses fire immunities.

Now apply Explosive Spell.

Now apply Fell Drain.

And hey, if you want, toss on Sudden Maximize on top for decoration.

Just about anything that isn't an epic level caster is now fried, hurtled to the outskirts and takes even MORE damage (up to 280d6, depending where in the spell they are), the negative level is just to add insult to injury, this time it's the actual damage itself which is carrying the load.

Now Twin it. I don't think you can actually get away with Chaining it, though, since it doesn't specify a single target.

[JaronK]

I hate to be so brusque, but how on earth is the intent of flash frost unclear?

I don't see any possible argument that it's intended to work for non-damaging spells.

I figured it was for very low damage area spells that have other primary effects like Kelgor's Grave Mist or Blizzard. By "don't do damage" I meant "don't do significant damage, and damage isn't their main point" and it brings up the damage element to something slightly more useful. Otherwise, the +2 damage simply wouldn't matter at all, you know?

JaronK

[Carth]

I figured it was for very low damage area spells that have other primary effects like Kelgor's Grave Mist or Blizzard. By "don't do damage" I meant "don't do significant damage, and damage isn't their main point" and it brings up the damage element to something slightly more useful. Otherwise, the +2 damage simply wouldn't matter at all, you know?

JaronK

I'd be fine with it working on blizzard and similar, because that affects an area. Whether it's the intent is debatable, but I'll agree that it's a plausible reading of the feat. Locate city does not affect an area, however, and is therefore an invalid target. Or if it does affect an area, then so does discern location, in which case it's better than locate city because it has the wonderful range of "unlimited." Sure, its target line reads a measly "one creature or object," but the fact that locate city doesn't target anything doesn't seem to impede its proponents, so that's probably not a problem.

[JaronK]

In the case of Locate Object, because it only has one target, it obviously hits just one enemy.

In some ways, Locate City implies that it targets the settlement itself, which would cause the combo to only hit everyone in the city (but launch all of them, if it works, to the edge of the spell's maximum radius).

This metamagic feat can be applied only to spells that have the cold descriptor and that affect an area. A flash frost spell deals an extra 2 points of cold damage per level of the spell to all targets in the area. When you cast such a spell, the area of the spell is covered with a slippery layer of ice for 1 round. Anyone attempting to move through this icy area must make a DC 10 Balance check or fall prone. A creature that runs or charges through the area must make a DC 20 Balance check to avoid falling.

So, let's see here. First of all, can Flash Frost Spell be applied to a Snowcasting Locate City? Yes, because the only requirement is the cold type on the spell and an area, which it clearly has. And it definitely covers the area in ice for 1 round, so enemies must make balance checks. The question is what to do with "to all targets in the area." Locate city says nothing of targets... in some way you're the target (which would lead to hilarious results), in some way it targets the whole area (looking for cities), and in some ways only the nearest city is the target. Which one is obviously very important. So this is definitely a potential hole in the trick.

I don't buy the circle objection too, because the spell straight up says it would find a city that's 5 miles away overland before finding a city that's half a mile underground. If it weren't a sphere, it wouldn't detect the underground one ever. So really, it's "all settlements that could be found within a [radius] circle drawn with you at the center" instead of "it only searches along a 2D circle plane."

Either way, Apocalypse from the Sky gets the job done.

JaronK

[Carth]

affect an area

Locate city has an area, just like detect magic, discern location, and other divination spells, but none of those things affect the areas they target. That's not what affect means.

Edit: and yeah, frankly by the time LCB comes online, you're not far from apocalypse from the sky anyway.

[JaronK]

Divinations can be resisted, which means they are affecting something. It's not much of an effect, but it's an effect none the less. The state of "being detected" evidently counts. Think of it as the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle of Magic.

JaronK

[Carth]

Divinations can be resisted, which means they are affecting something. It's not much of an effect, but it's an effect none the less. The state of "being detected" evidently counts. Think of it as the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle of Magic.

JaronK

The fact that divinations can be resisted is not evidence that they affect anything. That's not what affect means, the divination isn't doing something to affect the thing it's divining. You could make an argument that being blocked affects the diviner possibly, but it's tortuous to say that the divined is affected.

[JaronK]

Actually, the PHB says saving throws are to resist damage or harm (page 312). You can't even make a save if there's no damage or harm.

Thus, divination, by game rules, "harms" the target... evidently having your location revealed via divination magic counts. So that's affecting the target.

JaronK

[Carth]

Locate city, along with the other divination spells I mentioned, do not involve saving throws, or anything that would characterize being affected by something. The fact that other divination spells do has no relevance to the ones that don't. You're making enormous assumptions in the process of connecting all those dots.

[Darth Stabber]

Locate city, along with the other divination spells I mentioned, do not involve saving throws, or anything that would characterize being affected by something. The fact that other divination spells do has no relevance to the ones that don't. You're making enormous assumptions in the process of connecting all those dots.

So are you. I can buy the arguments that the traditional LCB doesn't actually work, but the Locate City Wightpocalypse does by RAW, and I have never seen any counter evidence (please present your evidence, I will happily consider it, and tell you why you're wrong, or apologize and admit my mistake).

And viewing something does affect it, that is one of the basic tenants of quantum physics, relating to the heisenburg uncertainty principle JaronK mentioned. The act of observation collapses the quantum wave form, and determining if schrödinger's cat is dead or alive. Until viewed it is both, and hence it is a quantum wave form, quantum wave forms collapse into certainty upon observation, thus the act of viewing does affect it, that which you study you also change. Which has massive philosophical implications if you believe in empiricism.

tl;dr: observing is affecting, and the population of catgirls has been substantially culled.

[AxeD]

Step 1: Cast mind blank and extended Greater Invisibility (and any other spells that could prevent witnesses/diviners from identifying/tracking you)
Step 2: Teleport to the northern section of the city you are targeting
Step 3: Gate in a Titan, commanding it to gate in another Titan (and for it to gate in another Titan, and so on) and to all attack the city. (At 20th level, you can have 20 titans (CR 21) casting quickened chain lightning (20th level - at will) rampaging through the city within one round). This lasts 20 rounds.
Step 4: Teleport to the eastern section of the city and repeat with the western and southern sections. (A 20th level specialised wizard has 5+ 9th level spells a day - you could summon 100 titans a day)
Step 5: Teleport to safety and scry on the proceedings.
Step 6: Repeat the next day from different locations (wizard acadamies, watch-houses, churches, etc) with more titans.

Probably wouldn't work in the long term as the cities could arm their clerics and wizards with scrolls of dismissal/banishment. You'd also end up with 20 pissed off titans who would hunt you down for using them in such a way. But for the short term? You'd be able to raze a city with practically no danger to yourself.

Then again, you could also use most of your WBL to purchase scrolls of Gate and hit the city with a 500 - 1,000+ titans at once and completely overrun them.

[Psyren]

Nobody but you need to know.

The problem is that as long as somebody knows, the whole universe does as well. The only way around this is something like Vecna-blooded, which is impossible to actually get save from the man himself.

[TroubleBrewing]

The problem is that as long as somebody knows, the whole universe does as well. The only way around this is something like Vecna-blooded, which is impossible to actually get save from the man himself.

If your chosen method was to raze a city by raising undead, I think Vecna could be persuaded to grant a template to a humble petitioner with big dreams.

[Carth]

So are you. I can buy the arguments that the traditional LCB doesn't actually work, but the Locate City Wightpocalypse does by RAW, and I have never seen any counter evidence (please present your evidence, I will happily consider it, and tell you why you're wrong, or apologize and admit my mistake).

And viewing something does affect it, that is one of the basic tenants of quantum physics, relating to the heisenburg uncertainty principle JaronK mentioned. The act of observation collapses the quantum wave form, and determining if schrödinger's cat is dead or alive. Until viewed it is both, and hence it is a quantum wave form, quantum wave forms collapse into certainty upon observation, thus the act of viewing does affect it, that which you study you also change. Which has massive philosophical implications if you believe in empiricism.

tl;dr: observing is affecting, and the population of catgirls has been substantially culled.

My knowledge of quantum physics is not sufficient (well, okay, barely existent) to delve into the subject. I'm interested in going there as my curiosity has been piqued, but you're going to have to start with smaller pieces if you want to have that conversation, because I don't grasp what you just wrote well enough to reply, which isn't conducive to a conclusion on anyone's part. I had intended to stick to an ordinary language debate of what affect means. No linguistic definition I've looked at implies that that what locate city does affects anything. An ordinary language approach also strikes me as more authoritative. As I've admitted, my knowledge in quantum physics is utterly lacking, but are its principles more or less assailable than dictionaries? Because the impression I have in my head about the philosophy of science (all philosophy, really), is that everything is constantly being disputed, whereas dictionaries are comparatively authoritative. Again, I'm willing to go there...but baby steps please?

[Elderand]

So are you. I can buy the arguments that the traditional LCB doesn't actually work, but the Locate City Wightpocalypse does by RAW, and I have never seen any counter evidence (please present your evidence, I will happily consider it, and tell you why you're wrong, or apologize and admit my mistake).

And viewing something does affect it, that is one of the basic tenants of quantum physics, relating to the heisenburg uncertainty principle JaronK mentioned. The act of observation collapses the quantum wave form, and determining if schrödinger's cat is dead or alive. Until viewed it is both, and hence it is a quantum wave form, quantum wave forms collapse into certainty upon observation, thus the act of viewing does affect it, that which you study you also change. Which has massive philosophical implications if you believe in empiricism.

tl;dr: observing is affecting, and the population of catgirls has been substantially culled.

That's is clearly not an argument, because quantum mechanic is not about watching something, it's about interaction, and every thing interact with every other things, therefore, if that argument was valid, we'd have to accept that flash frost can be put on every area spells ever. Hell let's got farther, since there isn't such a thing as zero size space (everything is at least plank sized) we could argue that everything as an area (even if it's just plank size area) so flash frost can be applied to every spell ever.

[JaronK]

That's is clearly not an argument, because quantum mechanic is not about watching something, it's about interaction, and every thing interact with every other things, therefore, if that argument was valid, we'd have to accept that flash frost can be put on every area spells ever. Hell let's got farther, since there isn't such a thing as zero size space (everything is at least plank sized) we could argue that everything as an area (even if it's just plank size area) so flash frost can be applied to every spell ever.

No, because spells with an area have a definition in the rules. But "affects" doesn't. The result is that Flash Frost Spell works on any cold based spell with an area of effect.

JaronK

[Elderand]

When you have to start bringing in quantum mechanic to justify your trick it is clearly not on solid ground was the point of my post. There might be argument to justify the trick, but quantum mechanic isn't a good one.

[Kelb_Panthera]

On the question of being divined before you go for the kill: legend lore. Divination can tell someone about you even if literally noone knows. Legend lore can tell the caster things about the target that even the target himself doesn't know.

There are gods of the city too. Bet your ass that their going to get a ping on their portfolio sense. If any of them are greater deities (I don't remember off the top of my head) they'll know a season ahead of time.