A not so simple question

[thethird]

I have doubts on the interaction between a bow with the exit wound weapon enhancement (found at complete warrior page 134) and the power living arrow (found at races of the wild page 176).

I posted it on the simple RAW questions and got 2 answers.

One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14592725&postcount=1151) saying that my reading is wrong and the other (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14592798&postcount=1154) disputing it.

As I read it:

-Living arrow makes the arrow move towards the designed target (explicitly keeping the properties of enhancements of the weapon or the bow) and then it hits it (assuming the attack roll is successful).

-Normally the arrow is destroyed and there is no need to define what happens to it after the attack.

-But extracting shot specifies that the arrow continues on its trajectory (i.e. it is not destroyed).

-The problem is that extracting shot says that it continues in a straight line but living arrow gives it the ability to alter its trajectory and hits its designed target (i.e. the target that was already hit).

Since there is no defined duration of the "sentience" of the arrow (the power has 1 round/level duration and is not discharged) it seems (at least to me) that the arrow keeps being "sentient" and being able to alter its trajectory to hit its designed target until it is destroyed (i.e. misses or hits an object).

Am I reading this right? Or am I reading this wrong? If so, could you please explain why?

Further discussion at Q&A by RAW

The power does not need to state that the projectile loses the ability. The power only does one thing: "The living arrow travels to the target, even around corners." Once the arrow hits it has traveled to the target. That is the extent of the effect. The effect is not "the living arrow travels to the target, through the target and back to the the target, even around corners." Living arrow works until the arrow hits, exit wound only starts working after the projectile has hit.

Even if the former did work you would create a paradox, because living arrow forces a curving trajectory whereas exit wound forces a straight line.


To not derail the thread I opened another one here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269201).

But to your comment, at no point does living arrow specify that the effect ends once it hits (it specifies though, that it ends if it hits an object and that you have to roll the attack normally, i.e. it ends if you miss), but it specifies "The power affects the first projectile you fire each round, granting it semisentience and the ability to alter its course in midflight." Thus, even if it exits the target in a straight line that doesn't conflict with its ability to alter its trajectory (i.e. hit it again).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Seeing as this is the kind of infinite damage loop that DM's ban on the spot, does it really matter if it's RAW legal or not?

FWIW, I agree with the poster that said that it travels to the target and then living arrow's effect ends for that particular arrow.

[thethird]

Thanks for the input. :smallsmile:

Since exit wound makes each subsequent hit less probable I disagree on the "infinite damage loop" part.

And due to me being the DM (and potentially using it later as a player, due to rule of cool) it matters, to me, if it is RAW legal or not. If it didn't matter I would have not asked.

[Andezzar]

Since exit wound makes each subsequent hit less probable I disagree on the "infinite damage loop" part.Living Arrow auto-hits so even infinite AC is meaningless.

[thethird]

Living arrow doesn't auto hit. Please read the power.



This effect negates cover and concealment modifiers, but the attack is otherwise rolled normally.

Seriously, this is a cool trick and it appears RAW legal to me but at no point it is an infinite loop of damage. And you should read the things I am asking about before stating absolutes.

[Andezzar]

OK, I missed that.

[jindra34]

If Living Arrow were to keep homing and trying to hit its target after impact, it would keep doing it as it went through thereby getting itself stuck. So you either get one or the other not a continuation of both.

[Andezzar]

Seriously, this is a cool trick and it appears RAW legal to me but at no point it is an infinite loop of damage. And you should read the things I am asking about before stating absolutes.You still have not shown how the power does more than traveling to the target. Once it has done that, the power ends for that projectile. Exit wound does not give any ability to alter the projectile's trajectory.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Okay, having read the power I'm dead certain it doesn't work that way. All it does is allow you to make an attack regardless of cover or concealment as long as there's a clear path to the target. That's it. Other than removing the cover and concealment modifiers to the attack all it lets you do is make an attack without clear line of effect.

[thethird]

No. Living arrow defines:

- the arrow can alter its trajectory to hit its target.

- what happens if it hits an object (the power stops working, the arrow is normally destroyed)

- what happens if it hits its target, you roll for attack as normal (in effect you can still miss)

Then exit wound applies, and defines:

- the arrow exits the target (in effect it is not destroyed) in a straight line.

- each subsequent target has a +4 to AC.

- if the arrow hits an object it stops (is normally destroyed)

Since living arrow is still in effect, none of the 2 ending conditions were met (no object, no miss) living arrow applies.

- the arrow alters its trajectory to hits its target.

This does repeat but it is not an infinite loop. The arrow will eventually miss. Once it misses one of the stop conditions for living arrow is met and due to missing exit wound does not apply.

Other than subjective interpretation, and wishful thinking, can you point me to a RAW argument against it?


You still have not shown how the power does more than traveling to the target. Once it has done that, the power ends for that projectile. Exit wound does not give any ability to alter the projectile's trajectory.

I cannot point you to where does it say that it doesn't end other than when it hits an object or misses because it doesn't say that it ends unless it hits an object or misses.

And as I said earlier living arrow is the one giving the ability to alter the trajectory.


To not derail the thread I opened another one here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269201).

But to your comment, at no point does living arrow specify that the effect ends once it hits (it specifies though, that it ends if it hits an object and that you have to roll the attack normally, i.e. it ends if you miss), but it specifies "The power affects the first projectile you fire each round, granting it semisentience and the ability to alter its course in midflight." Thus, even if it exits the target in a straight line that doesn't conflict with its ability to alter its trajectory (i.e. hit it again).

[Andezzar]

Other than subjective interpretation, and wishful thinking, can you point me to a RAW argument against it?



I cannot point you to where does it say that it doesn't end other than when it hits an object or misses because it doesn't say that it ends unless it hits an object or misses.

And as I said earlier living arrow is the one giving the ability to alter the trajectory.
You can launch a living arrow at a target known to you and within the maximum range of the weapon. The living arrow travels to the target, even around corners.None of the other rules of the power change any behaviour of the projectile after it has reached the target or missed it. That the power would is wishful thinking on your part.

[Taelas]

I would say that exit wound causes the arrow to have a new target (whoever is behind the original target on a straight-line path, even if there is no one there), and that the living arrow power would work as if the new target was the original target (and if there was no one, would just stop working).

So the only situation where both would kick in is if you had two people A and B standing in a straight line from the shooter, and both are behind cover. Living arrow would remove cover from A, exit wound would target B, and living arrow would again remove cover, this time from B. The increase in AC as per exit wound would function normally (it isn't a cover bonus or from concealment).

But that is my personal ruling on the matter, not RAW. The problem is, there are two contradictory rulings at work, and neither take precedence over the other (there is no primary source for this). Exit wound specifies a straight line, and living arrow allows it to curve away from its trajectory. It can't be both. If exit wound takes precedence, then it doesn't happen; if living arrow does, it's a possibility, to the limit of the arrow's range (so a nigh-infinite loop is still not possible). I should note that a +4 bonus to AC per hit is not technically a stop to a nigh-infinite loop. A 1 in 20 to the nth power where n approaches infinity is infinitely small, but it isn't zero.

Another problem is... when does the arrow curve? Immediately upon exiting the body? That would necessitate an 180 degree angle change, which seems rather excessive (and which should by physics also result in a complete loss of momentum).

[thethird]

After consulting it with the pillow I believe that all of you are proposing valid houserules, and I apologize if I was a bit edgy with the discussion.


None of the other rules of the power change any behaviour of the projectile after it has reached the target or missed it. That the power would is wishful thinking on your part.


When you manifest living arrow, you give a semblance of life to the projectiles you shoot at your foes. The power affects the first projectile you fire each round, granting it semisentience and the ability to alter its course in mid-flight.

This seems to indicate that the arrow can change its trajectory.



You can launch a living arrow at a target known to you and within the maximum range of the weapon. The living arrow
travels to the target, even around corners. Only an unavoidable obstacle or the limit of the arrow’s range prevents the arrow from reaching its target. A closed door thwarts a living arrow, as does an
otherwise sealed chamber.

An unavoidable obstacle, or being out of range makes the power fail.


This effect negates cover and concealment modifiers, but the attack is otherwise rolled normally. The arrow retains any magical properties it would otherwise have, such as an enhancement bonus from the bow or the arrow itself.

The attack is rolled as normal (so a miss would still be possible)

The arrow retains the properties of the weapon/arrow.

Where does it says that the power stops when it hits the target? Can you quote me the ruling in living arrow where it says that the power (which has duration 1 round/level and is in no way discharged) ends when the arrow hits the target?

Of course as I pointed out in the OP the power doesn't normally need to specify that, the arrow is normally destroyed on hit (or at least it stops moving) but exit wound is pretty clear in allowing the arrow to not be destroyed and keep moving.

As the poster above pointed this is a problem of precedence.

Does the straight line of exit wound robs the semisientent living arrow of its ability to modify its trajectory?

Most responses seem to believe that yes and seem to be pretty absolute on their affirmative but I am still failing to see why other than "no, this doesn't work that way."


That would necessitate an 180 degree angle change, which seems rather excessive (and which should by physics also result in a complete loss of momentum).

Thanks for your response, it is a perfectly valid houserule (and I might rule that the arrow can not make a 180 degree turn, but if there is any enemy in a cone of 90 degrees it will fly to that one and then check to see if it hits)

On the other hands, physics and archery don't really mix well in vanilla D&D so I am not really worried about that.

[Andezzar]

This seems to indicate that the arrow can change its trajectory.You always forget that the power can only change the trajectory on the way to the target, as I quoted several times. It does not say that it can change the trajectory after it has reached its target. Saying so is reading something into the rules that is not there.
Additionally to exit the target the arrow must move away from the target, once it does that, the arrow is no longer on its way to the target and so the power does not apply.

If you are talking about changing the trajectory to hit another target, as I said before, this creates a paradox. A curving trajectory is incompatible with a straight line (as ordered by Exit Wound)

[thethird]

Okay I believe I see where the problem is now, let me paraphrase what you said to make sure that I understand that you are saying.

You are saying that since living arrow only allows to hit a target with an unusual trajectory once, if its hit the power no longer applies.

I am correct until here?

You are saying that since living arrow is able to alter its trajectory midflight it only can do so on the first way to its target.

Still correct?

Since you seem to already have quoted it... I will check your post and reread them carefully.

Okay this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14594467&postcount=11) and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14593881&postcount=1163) post are the only one that contains a quote from the rules of living arrow so I guess that you are referring to them.

Summing up the problem (imho) is this:

-If the arrow is mid-flight it is not on the target.

-The arrow can alter its trajectory mid-flight to the target.

-If the arrow hits the target it exits the target (due to exit wound) in a straight line.

-If the arrow exits the target it is no longer in the target and it is mid-flight.

-The arrow can alter its trajectory mid-flight to the target.

I don't see the conflict of leaving the target in a straight line and then modifying the trajectory mid-flight. There is a temporal order that can satisfy both.

I do see that you intend to read the power as ending once it hits the target, and yes, you quoted clearly that it can alter its trajectory to move to the target, but no, you did not quote where it says that it ends once it hits the target.

I do understand, and totally agree, that the power ending once it hits the target is probably the sanest, but it is not at all RAW.

[Andezzar]

Okay I believe I see where the problem is now, let me paraphrase what you said to make sure that I understand that you are saying.

You are saying that since living arrow only allows to hit a target with an unusual trajectory once its hit the power no longer applies.

I am correct until here?

You are saying that since living arrow is able to alter its trajectory midflight it only can do so on the first way to its target.Yes on both counts.


Okay this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14594467&postcount=11) post is the only one that contains a quote from the rules of living arrow so I guess that you are referring to this one.Yes, that's what I meant. I thought I quoted it more than once.


Summing up the problem (imho) is this:

-If the arrow is mid-flight it is not on the target.

-The arrow can alter its trajectory mid-flight to the target.I agree


-If the arrow hits the target it exits the target (due to exit wound) in a straight line.

-If the arrow exits the target it is no longer in the target and it is mid-flight.

-The arrow can alter its trajectory mid-flight to the target.No, the arrow does not exit in a straight line, it continues away from the target in a straight line:
The weapon or projectile continues in a straight line beyond the original target.This is incompatible with a curving trajectory.

Since there is no rule for precedence here. You cannot tell what the projectile would do per RAW. Whatever you decide is a houserule.

[thethird]

Thanks :smallsmile:

That was I was getting on, per RAW it is a problem of precedence, imho the arrow can alter its trajectory, due to its semisentience, but it is in fact a houserule.

Of course, what annoyed me (a little) was the fact that it seemed that I was reading something wrong, as it was pointed that it didn't work that way and left at it.

I will probably go with the option to allow it to redirect itself to the original target.

On a tangent, I hope that my player doesn't ask me the interaction between this and arrowsplit from champions of ruin...

Similarly a note like the one in doublestrike arrow from champions of ruin "it cannot strike the same target twice and it is destroyed even if it misses" would have been helpful.

[mattie_p]

Regardless of how you work this, the interaction requires a DM judgement call. Why?

The living arrow does not state what maneuverability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#tableManeuverability) the arrow now has. We can assume that it is at least "good" (as it turns corners) - it might be "perfect." Also, does the arrow have to attack from the same direction/square each time (in other words, does it have to make a half-orbit around the target until it strikes again)? or can it exit and immediately re-enter from the other side?

So it seems to me that range might be the only RAW way for the living arrow with exit wound to expire each round.

Incidentally, the power never states that the power expires when it misses, this is an assumption that everyone is making. You do get one arrow per round though, without augmentation.

[Vaz]

I'd posted a continuation in the Simple QA, but I was redirected here - thanks, Andezzar.

My take on it, regardless of physics/magic, etc, that due to this wording

"Only an unavoidable obstacle or the limit of the arrow's range prevents the arrow from reaching its target"

from Living arrow, that the only possible way in which the arrow does not turn back on itself is if the initial target is no longer counted as the arrows target once it is hit. As far as I know, there is no ruling for that (as before this specific example, I don't believe it crops up, but then I'm fairly new to DnD - but not Rules Lawyering, go figure Games Workshop).

By my understanding/reading, it would aim at target, if it hits, penetrates, 180's, rinse and repeat with a further AC bonus of +4(n-1) in regards to the number of times it is suffers an attack roll from that arrow.

In regards to the sense, it might not make such sense on a linear weapon, but on a Shuriken Throwing Weapon, or a Boomerang, maybe. Still, it's magic, baby.

However, you're well within your right to modify it, and on a weapon with linear projectiles, it makes more sense that it's a 90 degree cone - AAM missiles typically have a similar field of vision but they still have a turning circle around half a mile in size.

[Andezzar]

"Only an unavoidable obstacle or the limit of the arrow's range prevents the arrow from reaching its target"Once it reaches the initial target it has done that. There is no rule that says it does it again to another or the same target. Unfortunately Wizards never spelled out whether D&D is a permissive ruleset. But if you go by the "if it is not forbidden you can do it" mentality you can do all sorts of shenanigans.


By my understanding/reading, it would aim at target, if it hits, penetrates, 180's, rinse and repeat with a further AC bonus of +4(n-1) in regards to the number of times it is suffers an attack roll from that arrow.This however would break the rules for Exit wound Which enables it to continue on in the first place. Exit wound states that the projectile "continues in a straight line beyond the original target." As such it cannot change its trajectory beyond the initial target.

[Vaz]

And yet Living Arrow allows you to turn corners. I believe you choose the order in which things are applied to be the most beneficial to you, so that's down to player's choice.

[Andezzar]

And yet Living Arrow allows you to turn corners. I believe you choose the order in which things are applied to be the most beneficial to you, so that's down to player's choice.Yes, but you cannot ignore parts of either benefit. If you start with the maneuverability of living arrow, the arrow cannot exit the initial target yet. If the arrow exits the target, it must continue in a straight line.

[Vaz]

Edit; blegh, you're right - we were both looking at the wrong part - not "continues in a straight line" - we could apply Living Arrow after that to let it turn corners fine; it's the bit after it though. "target's in that path".

So, you may only continue on to hit other targets in the path (which still benefit from the Living Arrow, mind), but it may only hit targets on the path, as the initial target is behind the path, you may not target him again with the same arrow.