Swordsage Build - Critique Welcome

[Velikolepni]

Hi, I would like to hear people's opinion on an unarmed variant swordsage build focusing on throwing people around. I want to roleplay him (in part) as a judo master of sorts. However, since not everything can be thrown and since I want him to be at least a bit useful in other situations I decided to branch out into stone dragon and tiger claw. I like the flavor of the combination with setting sun.

Human Swordsage(unarmed variant)(11), Monk(2), Fighter(2), Master of Nine(5), 30pt buy, 16 strength, 14 dexterity, 14 constitution, 10 intelligence, 14 wisdom, 8 charisma, pump strength at every level

Swordsage(Dodge, Adaptive Style(human), Combat Reflexes(flaw:shaky))(Counter Charge, Mighty Throw, Charging Minotaur, Wolf Fang Strike, Burning Blade, Clinging Shadow Strike, Step of the Wind(stance))
Monk(Passive Way) (Combat Expertise)
Monk(Defensive Throw, Improved Trip)
Fighter(Superior Unarmed Attack)
Fighter(Mobility)
Swordsage(Improved Natural Attack)(Baffling Defense, Leaping Dragon Stance)
Swordsage(Mind over Body)
Swordsage(Soaring Raptor strike, Mighty throw->Mountain Hammer)
Swordsage(Elusive Target)(Comet throw, Pearl of black doubt(stance))
Swordsage(Searing charge, Burning Blade->Searing Blade)
Swordsage(Bonesplitting Strike)
Swordsage(Improved Initiative)(Mirrored Pursuit, Charging Minotaur->Elder mountain hammer)
Swordsage(Ballista Throw, Shifting Defense(stance))
Swordsage(Desert tempest, Wolf Fang strike->Dancing Mongoose)
Swordsage(Blind Fight)(Ancient Mountain Hammer)
Master Of Nine(Swooping Dragon Strike, Quicksilver Motion)
Master Of Nine(Girallon windmill flesh rip, Stance of Alacrity)
Master of Nine(Snap Kick)(Diamond Defense, Shadow Blink)
Master Of Nine(Tornado Throw, Balance on the Sky(stance))
Master Of Nine(Time Stands Still, Feral Death Blow)


The maneuver progression is not optimal unfortunately.
Would the following tricks work well?

Use desert tempest. Every time I leave a threatened square I get to attack. With elusive target, every attack of opportunity gives a trip attempt and every trip attempt gives an extra attack.
Improved trip+Setting Sun throws+Step of the Wind = +12 on trip attemps in difficult terrain? Could one make difficult terrain by throwing marbles?
Assuming flurry works a bit like two weapons fighting, then Dancing Mongoose should give two extra attacks, right?

Are there any other cool tricks that would improve defense or trip chances?
Would I be better served to dump the Stone Dragon strikes in favor of Diamond Mind ones?
What can I do against flying opponents? I was thinking of using searing charge until I manage to get hold of some flying items.

[Aegis013]

I don't know what optimization level your group typically plays at, but this looks like a reasonable build to me. You've admitted yourself that it won't be super optimized in maneuver selection, but it looks like it'll do the throw-stuff schtick well.

As far as your tricks - number one will work, but keep in mind, it likely won't be useful multiple times in one round against a single foe. Unless they have Combat Reflexes they only get one AoO to use on you, plus, if you've already tripped them, you can't trip them. Against a lot of foes, it could be very effective.

Number two you'll have to run by your DM. Caltrops don't make rough terrain, so I think it would be a houserule for marbles. (I can't find anything on the SRD anyway)

Number three won't work. I'm not seeing where you're getting flurry, as Unarmed Swordsages don't get it by the adaptation section under Swordsage. However, even if you had it, or used something like Flashing Sun to emulate it, Dancing Mongoose would provide you only one attack. As I recall, you can't TWF with natural weapons.

[Velikolepni]

The monk levels give flurry.

Furthermore, to my knowledge unarmed strikes are not technically natural attacks even though according to this link http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a
a monk can take the feat improved natural attack.

In addition, one can use the feat two weapons fighting in order to get an offhand unarmed strike. In the current situation though, I want to use flurry of strikes and argue that since they have the essentially same effect (extra attack, -2 to hit) they should interact the same way with Dancing Mongoose.

[Aegis013]

It seems I overlooked the two level dip in Monk.

I'm simply going by Curmudgeon's ruling (I trust him as an authority on RAW), though it appears I misremembered the reasoning (see this thread, 6th post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-178790.html).

Though flurry certainly would not count as a secondary weapon for Dancing Mongoose. You can ofc, still run it by your DM, but by RAW, it doesn't.

[Twilightwyrm]

It seems I overlooked the two level dip in Monk.

I'm simply going by Curmudgeon's ruling (I trust him as an authority on RAW), though it appears I misremembered the reasoning (see this thread, 6th post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-178790.html).

Though flurry certainly would not count as a secondary weapon for Dancing Mongoose. You can ofc, still run it by your DM, but by RAW, it doesn't.

You're right, the Flurry itself would not count as a second attack. However, if he had Two-Weapon Fighting, since you can Two-Weapon Fight with your unarmed strikes, he could gain an extra attack out of that.

[GenericMook]

Out of curiosity, you've got Improved Initiative listed there twice. I'm pretty sure you can't do that.

Also, as an Unarmed Swordsage, I'd seriously consider getting Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse. Because unarmed strikes are Shadow Hand weapons. It makes you less MAD. Strength isn't nearly as useful as Dex, after all.

[Talionis]

Shadow Sun Ninja will also progress a lot of your Monk abilities, especially unarmed attack so some of those mid level Swordsage levels might be better served as SSN.

A trick that is expensive by costing to feats grenadier and Mad Alchemist feat ( both feats in PHB2) allows you to open a Tangleroot Bag and create rough terrain. It has another useful trick to keep casters from casting.

[Shining Wrath]

I think at level 20 you may want Mountain Tombstone Strike, which RAW has no prerequisites, instead of Feral Death Blow. FDB requires Jump followed by attack and grants a Fort save for partial, but won't work nearly as well against things which are immune to critical hits, which includes a fair number of major baddies.

MTS does 2d6 Constitution damage if your attack hits ... no saves. Taking a baddie with lots of HD down by 1-6 HP/HD with one smack is useful.

For example, hit a 34 HD Wyrm Black Dragon for (whatever your base attack is), and tack on another 34 to 204 points of damage from the Constitution reduction (2-12 Con ==> 1-6 reduction in HP/HD). And again, no saves.

For the FDB, first make a jump check against the Wyrm's 39 AC, which even with a strength bonus up as high as possible and 23 skill ranks might not be a gimme. Then hit that AC 39. Then the Wyrm gets to make a Fort save against 19 + your strength modifier, and their base Fort save is 26. They've probably got at least a 50/50 chance of saving, and that's if you've somehow gotten your STR modifier up to 17 (STR = 44 is impressive, no?). If it all works, you've one-shotted a dragon, and you'll be getting free drinks in taverns off that story for the rest of your life. It's just that it requires 3 rolls to pull it off.

[Velikolepni]

Out of curiosity, you've got Improved Initiative listed there twice. I'm pretty sure you can't do that.

My mistake, one of them was supposed to be Blind fight.

I have looked at Shadow Sun Ninja and consider it to be a pretty bad prestige class with badly written and mostly useless abilities. The only thing it has over the unarmed swordsage is the flurry progression but I don't think it is worth to give up a lot of maneuvers for that.

I don't have enough feats for Weapon Finesse and Shadow Hand. In addition I don't want to make yet another ninja character that spends his time in a Shadow Hand stance. I mostly want to be in a Setting Sun stance throwing people around. I don't think that MAD is such a problem.

Mountain Tombstone Strike is probably better than Feral Death Blow in many situations. I will consider it, but I honestly like the fluff of Feral Death Blow too much.

[Velikolepni]

For the FDB, first make a jump check against the Wyrm's 39 AC, which even with a strength bonus up as high as possible and 23 skill ranks might not be a gimme. Then hit that AC 39.
I don't think that the jump is a problem at that level. 23 skill ranks + 10 from Leaping dragon stance + 10 from an item + running = easy roll.

The high AC is indeed a problem. I wonder if one can get a Necklace of Natural attacks and use it to make one's fists into a Tiger Claw/Setting Sun/Diamond Mind/Desert Wind/Stone Dragon/Shadow Hand discipline weapon. By RAW it seems that this is only a +6 enchantement that would provide a significant boost to hit chance. If I am reading it correctly it should provide a +11 bonus to to hit and even more when using a maneuver, but I am not sure since the book only gives an example for two disciplines

[Darrin]

Would I be better served to dump the Stone Dragon strikes in favor of Diamond Mind ones?


Grab Mountain Hammer and Bonesplitting Strike. You don't need the Elder or Ancient versions, but if you want to swap them in for Mountain Hammer, that's fine.



What can I do against flying opponents? I was thinking of using searing charge until I manage to get hold of some flying items.

*shrug* You can trip flying opponents and force them to make recovery rolls if they stall.


The monk levels give flurry.


I'm not sure it's worth it. If you need two feats, Psychic Warrior 2 or Cleric 1 (Time domain = Imp. Init, Darkness domain = Blindfight) might work just as well. If you want an extra attack, use TWF or Snap Kick.



Furthermore, to my knowledge unarmed strikes are not technically natural attacks even though according to this link http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a
a monk can take the feat improved natural attack.


There's been a lot of argument about this issue, but I think Curmudgeon, Keld Denar, and myself all agree that unarmed strikes are treated as natural attacks (except when the combat rules say otherwise).



In addition, one can use the feat two weapons fighting in order to get an offhand unarmed strike. In the current situation though, I want to use flurry of strikes and argue that since they have the essentially same effect (extra attack, -2 to hit) they should interact the same way with Dancing Mongoose.

This doesn't work. In fact, the class features for the Monk are pretty explicit that there is no such thing as an offhand attack when the Monk Flurries. The Monk can freely trade out unarmed strikes with monk weapons if he wants to, but all those attacks are treated as "primary" attacks when part of a Flurry.

The D&D FAQ does say you should be allowed to mix Flurry with TWF, but this isn't universally accepted as canon. If you do mix them, you can only use unarmed strikes and monk weapons as part of the flurry. While you could offhand with unarmed strikes, you'd still have to have a monk weapon as your "primary". (Unless your DM is one of those "multiple striking surface" guys and is ok with unarmed strike as primary and offhand during the same full attack.)

For Dancing Mongoose to work, you need to be wielding two weapons. It's not clear if unarmed strike counts as "wielding", but I'd be inclined to say "no" (but check with your DM on that). While several Tiger Claw maneuvers include an option to use an unarmed strike as an "offhand" or second weapon, Dancing Mongoose makes no such provision.

If you want a RAW way to get these all to work, then you'd probably have to wield two monk weapons. This satisfies Flurry, TWF, and Dancing Mongoose. You could even add Snap Kick to get an additional unarmed strike attack in there.



I don't have enough feats for Weapon Finesse and Shadow Hand.


Hmm. Cleric 1/Swashbuckler 1 Could get you three feats: Improved Initiative, Blind-Fight, and Weapon Finesse (plus Knowledge Devotion if you go Cloistered). You could also feycraft some light weapons for the equivalent of Weapon Finesse. Oh, you mean Shadow Blade, not Shadow Hand. Ok. Yeah... not enough feats to do that properly.



Mountain Tombstone Strike is probably better than Feral Death Blow in many situations. I will consider it, but I honestly like the fluff of Feral Death Blow too much.

The problem with Feral Death Blow is not the Jump check but the Fort save, which will be laughably easy for most CR-appropriate monsters, and won't work at all against anything immune to crits: undead, constructs, elementals, plants, oozes, etc. Which means you're just doing an average of 70 damage. You get much better DPS with Strike of Perfect Clarity. Mountain Tombstone Strike is nifty because it does 2d6 Con damage without a save... which admittedly isn't much use against non-Con opponents, but against everything else, lots of ouch and no mucking around with failed saves.



The high AC is indeed a problem. I wonder if one can get a Necklace of Natural attacks and use it to make one's fists into a Tiger Claw/Setting Sun/Diamond Mind/Desert Wind/Stone Dragon/Shadow Hand discipline weapon. By RAW it seems that this is only a +6 enchantement that would provide a significant boost to hit chance. If I am reading it correctly it should provide a +11 bonus to to hit and even more when using a maneuver, but I am not sure since the book only gives an example for two disciplines

Hmmm.
+1 basic enhancement
+6 for knowing six different disciplines
+2 for using an associated stance
+2 for using an associated strike
+2 for using an associated boost
Total: +13 untyped attack bonus

(the +1 untyped bonus is replaced with a +3 bonus when using a maneuver, hence the +2)

[Shining Wrath]

I don't think that the jump is a problem at that level. 23 skill ranks + 10 from Leaping dragon stance + 10 from an item + running = easy roll.

The high AC is indeed a problem. I wonder if one can get a Necklace of Natural attacks and use it to make one's fists into a Tiger Claw/Setting Sun/Diamond Mind/Desert Wind/Stone Dragon/Shadow Hand discipline weapon. By RAW it seems that this is only a +6 enchantement that would provide a significant boost to hit chance. If I am reading it correctly it should provide a +11 bonus to to hit and even more when using a maneuver, but I am not sure since the book only gives an example for two disciplines

You are therefore putting yourself into a particular stance and choosing a magic item (Boots of Striding and Springing, perchance). By 20th level that's very doable but you now can't be in a higher-level stance.

At any rate, even if you do hit, the dragon is VERY likely to make that Fort save. It's a freaking dragon, after all. Base SR of 26, so they need to roll your strength modifier -7.

As for the fluff factor - for Feral Death Blow I get a visual of your unarmed monk leaping over a dragon, reaching down and grabbing its head in mid-air, and snapping its neck like a branch. Kewl factor = 10, but only if it works.

But the Mountain Tombstone Strike means your unarmed monk punches a dragon so hard that the dragon's bones splinter and crack within him. That, too, is very kewl.

[Velikolepni]

Grab Mountain Hammer and Bonesplitting Strike. You don't need the Elder or Ancient versions, but if you want to swap them in for Mountain Hammer, that's fine.

What should I do agains DR? I suppose I could use greater insightfull strike. It should do more than enough damage for the pain to go through.



*shrug* You can trip flying opponents and force them to make recovery rolls if they stall.

I am somewhat unclear as to how that would work, especially agains targets with perfect maneuvrability.



I'm not sure it's worth it. If you need two feats, Psychic Warrior 2 or Cleric 1 (Time domain = Imp. Init, Darkness domain = Blindfight) might work just as well. If you want an extra attack, use TWF or Snap Kick.

I want the two monk levels for Improved trip without having to put intelligence at 13. I suppose I could replace them with two levels of Wolf Totem Barbarian. By the way, can one mix totems? For instance taking the first level of Barbarian as Lion totem and the second one as Wolf totem? If so, that would be quite cheesy.



If you want a RAW way to get these all to work, then you'd probably have to wield two monk weapons. This satisfies Flurry, TWF, and Dancing Mongoose. You could even add Snap Kick to get an additional unarmed strike attack in there.

I think that I will just replace Dancing Mongoose with Rabid Bear Strike or something of similar nature.



Hmm. Cleric 1/Swashbuckler 1 Could get you three feats: Improved Initiative, Blind-Fight, and Weapon Finesse (plus Knowledge Devotion if you go Cloistered). You could also feycraft some light weapons for the equivalent of Weapon Finesse. Oh, you mean Shadow Blade, not Shadow Hand. Ok. Yeah... not enough feats to do that properly.

Is there any god that has Darkness and Time as domains? My DM tends to be rather unflexible on that point.

One of the reasons I don't want to focus of Dexterity by taking weapon finesse and shadow blade is that only setting sun trips allow one to use dexterity in place of strength. For Defensive throw and Elusive target I need strength, so why no just use it for attacks as well.



The problem with Feral Death Blow is not the Jump check but the Fort save, which will be laughably easy for most CR-appropriate monsters, and won't work at all against anything immune to crits: undead, constructs, elementals, plants, oozes, etc. Which means you're just doing an average of 70 damage. You get much better DPS with Strike of Perfect Clarity. Mountain Tombstone Strike is nifty because it does 2d6 Con damage without a save... which admittedly isn't much use against non-Con opponents, but against everything else, lots of ouch and no mucking around with failed saves.

Well I think that you're right. If I ever get this character to level 20, I will take mountain tombstone strike, unless we are only fighting undead by that point.

[Darrin]

What should I do agains DR? I suppose I could use greater insightfull strike. It should do more than enough damage for the pain to go through.


Ring of Adamantine Touch, Silversheen, oils of align weapon, etc. Cold Iron is probably the only special material that's difficult to mimic with a spell effect.



I am somewhat unclear as to how that would work, especially agains targets with perfect maneuvrability.


From the Rules Compendium, p. 145:

"A winged creature can be tripped, and if it is, it falls as if it didn't maintain its minimum forward speed."

Getting close enough to trip... yeah, that might be a "magic item" kinda thing.



I want the two monk levels for Improved trip without having to put intelligence at 13. I suppose I could replace them with two levels of Wolf Totem Barbarian. By the way, can one mix totems? For instance taking the first level of Barbarian as Lion totem and the second one as Wolf totem? If so, that would be quite cheesy.


How many totem poles have you seen with only one animal?



I think that I will just replace Dancing Mongoose with Rabid Bear Strike or something of similar nature.


If you need a second manufactured weapon: armor spikes.



Is there any god that has Darkness and Time as domains? My DM tends to be rather unflexible on that point.


Sort of. If you worship Sertrous (Elder Evils p. 115-116), you can pick any two domains freely as if you were devoted to an ideal. On the downside, you worship a thoroughly evil demonic giant snake that, as he gets more powerful, causes the earth itself to vomit torrents of poisonous snakes.

In Deities & Demigods, you can also worship an entire pantheon, and just select two domains from the entire pantheon. Unfortunately, all of the pantheons you can choose from were printed before both the Time and Darkness domains.

[Velikolepni]

From the Rules Compendium, p. 145:

"A winged creature can be tripped, and if it is, it falls as if it didn't maintain its minimum forward speed."

Getting close enough to trip... yeah, that might be a "magic item" kinda thing.

That is a great thing to know, thanks.



How many totem poles have you seen with only one animal?

In that case, would it be possible to combine the City brawler variant(gives two weapon fighting that can only be used with unarmed strikes at first level) with the wolf totem variant? If so, the two levels of monk would become quite obsolete.



If you need a second manufactured weapon: armor spikes.

I was thinking about going unarmored, but maybe that is not the best thing to do. On the other hand, I do want to look like a mystical dude that kills dragons in his pyjamas.