Lich or Vampire?

[Chilingsworth]

Hi Playground!

Ok, so I'm considering my plans for my current character. I've been told I'll have the option of becoming either a lich or a vampire. I'm pretty sure I'll do this, but not until I reach 20th level. That means I wont get to play as one for long (or possibly at all) but at least I'll advance my casting as much as possible.

The character is a wizard/beguiler/ultimate magus with the following stats:

Str 14, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 21, Wis 8, Cha 16. AL NE (heading for LE, probably.)

Goals: overthrow of current regime with replacement by one of which he is either the head or a high minister; creation of a powerful and prosperous society to ensure prevent future rebellion and generally ensure survival of regime.

For the sake of argument: which type of undead transformation would be better for the character?

The way I see it, each have pros and cons:

Lich:

Pros: I can perform the transformation myself (or will be able to); Assuming phylactery is adequately guarded, I should be harder to permenantly kill; no particular weaknesses.

Cons: Transformation costs gold, XP, and time (for crafting the phylactery); inferior stat adjustments; lackluster special abilities


Vampire:

Pros: If I can find a negotiable (or coerceable) weaker vampire, I can get the transformation for cheap and little/no downside; takes less time (rise 1d4 days after death, rather than the 100 days to craft a phylactery); superior stat adjustments; more (and at least argueably better) special abilities;

Biggest Pro: Ability to reward faithful underlings/allies with conversion, or gain minions by forced conversion.

Cons: Vampire Weaknesses; will need help to pull conversion off safely; risk of being pansified by glitterdust.

So, which is the better bet?

[andromax]

Lich.. unless you're a twitterpated tween.

[Ravenica]

lich, all benefits no drawbacks

[Pickford]

Unless there's something that let's a vampire go out in daylight and not die horribly...I would suggest the lich.

[TuggyNE]

Unless there's something that let's a vampire go out in daylight and not die horribly...I would suggest the lich.

There are some ways to pull this off, I believe, but I don't remember the specifics and they're generally rather clunky and not super-effective.

[andromax]

Can you imagine if Stephenie Meyer and Andy Collins wrote a splatbook?

[Sgt. Cookie]

Lich. They have a lower level adjustment.

[Morph Bark]

Why not both (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101944)? :smallcool:

[Killer Angel]

A vampire is a bbeg. A lich is a BBEG. should I say more?

[andromax]

A vampire is a bbeg. A lich is a BBEG. should I say more?

What is a hero, once smitten - but a Bbeg in training?

[Invader]

Def a lich.

[Alabenson]

One of the major issues with vampirism (aside from the obvious litany of weaknesses and possible association with glitter), is the fact that you are automatically completely under the thrall of the vampire who created you, regardless of any power disparity between the two of you.

[Psyren]

A miserable pile of secrets lich :smalltongue:
Vampires have way too much baggage and weaknesses.

[The LOBster]

Go with the lich, dude.

[CTrees]

Vampire hunters are a thing. Lich hunters are a dead thing. Draw your own conclusions.

Seriously though, vampires have a huge list of weaknesses requiring circumvention. Liches don't. Seems a simple choice.

[Rogue Shadows]

Lich, lich, lich lich...
Lich lich lich lich.

Be a lich
Be a lich
Be a lich...! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY)

[Aharon]

Go for Vampire Lord instead. The advantages of the vampire without the disadvantages :smallsmile:

[ArcturusV]

Vampires (http://cinemassacre.com/2012/10/16/you-know-whats-bull****-2/)

Generally why I don't like Vampires as a route towards Immortality/Ultra Villain status.

[Twilightwyrm]

My general recommendation would be Lich, as it makes you harder to kill than you already are, does not draw the ire of vampire hunters, had a lower level adjustment, and the ability to touch someone and paralyze them is generally more helpful than the ability to touch said person and drain a level. And hell, you are already an illusionist by virtue of having beguiler levels, so appearing not-undead shouldn't be a problem.
This being said, the vampire does have a few advantages: like you said, it gains greater abilities, it is easier to create spawn, and you don't generally need to bother with disguising your appearance that much. There are various feats and magic items that can overcome the light sensitivity, and while you do have a number of weaknesses, there is one important advantage you have over the Lich: your weaknesses are local. Sure, sunlight, mirrors, running water, and stakes are all weaknesses the Lich does not grant, but assuming you can find a way to protect against them, you will be certain they are always protected. A Lich, on the other hand, has an external weakness: the phylactery. No matter how well it is protected, no matter how well it is hidden, destroying this one thing irrevocably kills the Lich. Whereas with a vampire can escape the sunlight or running water with its next standard action, and a stake is an impermanent solution. Further, recovering after being "destroyed" is a much faster process than with a Lich, assuming with can get back to your coffin in an efficient manner. So there are these advantages.
Of course, all this is ignoring the obvious: there is an undead creature that has a litany of powers, is far more difficult to destroy than either a Vampire or a Lich, and while they do not gain nearly the same ability score bonuses, are potentially the hardest creature to permanently "kill" in existence. You could, very simply become a ghost. Seriously, if anyone thought a Lich or Vampiric monarch would be bad, try one that is nigh impossible for a common person to harm, let alone kill, has no local or external weaknesses any more than any other type of undead, and might well be inside your wall, listening to you right now! A vampire or Lich has to waste spells if they want to ethereally watch their citizens, which means they may not bother using it to randomly spy on peasants. All a ghost stands to lose is some time out of the day, and could be anywhere while taking surveillance of the populace. Further, you may always need to watch what you say, as you might be speaking to your monarch right now! What with the ability to possess your subjects, basically at will, finding traitors in your midst, weeding out dissent, or even scaring the crap out of a poor peasant that thought they were talking to their son becomes a pleasant evening walk, rather than a waste of resources.

[Chilingsworth]

Why not both (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101944)? :smallcool:

Now there's a thought: what would happen if you made your phyalctery, then died... via a vampire's blood drain?

Also, the level adjustment difference is irrelevant: I'll be doing this at level 20 if I do it at all. (and the campaign wont be running to level 21.)

And as for vampirism = instant, unavoidable domination, wrong: A vampire can only control a number of HD of vampires/spawn equal to 2x their own HD. Therefore, all I have to do is find a vampire of under 10HD, and it will be unable to control me after creation (ensuring that such a vampire truns me into a true vampire rather than a spawn could be achieved either by negotiation (I could promise it payment, or a position in my new government) and enforcement of the agreement by my allies/minions or via command undead (also, if it succeeds on its save, it's probably too powerful for my needs, anyway.)

Really, the big draw of vamprism for me is the ability to use transformation as a reward for faithful allies (if they're faithful enough, I might even give them immediate (or at least quick) release from servitude.) Is there an efficent way to do anything similiar as a lich?

EDIT: I hadn't considered a ghost. Although, it would mean giving up the ability to cast any spell requiring a material component or a focus (I don't have space in my build for the ghostly grasp feat.) Unless I possessed someone, I suppose? Also, how would I reliably become a ghost? No reliable, mechanical way to do it = I can't do it.

As for Vampire Lord: I suppose it is possible (the transformation is as likely as not to occur in the epilogue of the campaign, surely the transformation into vampire lord could do so.) Still, isn't that a template from the wizard's site?

[Alleran]

Unless there's something that let's a vampire go out in daylight and not die horribly...I would suggest the lich.
As a matter of fact, there is.

Two things, actually. One is a spell in Lords of Darkness. The other is the Vampire Lord (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a) template. To qualify:

- They each have lived as a vampire for at least 100 years. (Hop into a fast-time demiplane.)
- They have acquired 10 or more class levels or Hit Dice. (Easy.)
- A vampire lord was formerly a vampire under the control of another vampire (not a vampire lord) and has slain its creator. (Do-able, with help. Get the party to aid you, maybe.)
- Further, the vampire lord must have created at least 10 vampires and survived an assassination attempt by one of its subjects before achieving vampire lord status. (Create a bunch of vampires, then tell one to attempt to assassinate you... badly. It will naturally fail, and so you tick the checkbox.)

And the survivability is off the charts:

Garlic and holy symbols have no effect (turning still works). They have no fear of mirrors and cast reflections, can cross over/through and be immersed in running water without being harmed in any way, spells that produce sun-effects have no effect (direct sunlight only), and even when under the sunlight, they only take a -4 penalty to ability scores, attacks, saves and skill checks (and can't use any supernatural abilities). Dominated victims aren't freed and can be commanded even in direct sunlight. Nor are they killed outright by a wooden stake driven through their heart. If killed, they assume gaseous form (even in sunlight, and that won't destroy the vampire lord either).

If you want to kill one, you decapitate it, burn the two parts separately, scatter the ashes from the body over running water, immerse the ashes from the head in holy water, and then bury the head-ashes in consecrated ground. Oh, and if the head ashes are ever dug up, separated from the holy water, dried thoroughly, and subjected to an unhallow spell, the vampire lord regenerates in a week if the ashes are placed inside one of its places of rest.

Vampire Lords are very damn hard to keep down permanently. And they don't have the feral cast normal vampires have, and can wander around in the sun without arousing suspicion.


Still, isn't that a template from the wizard's site?
Yes.

[Pickford]

It seems much easier to cast imprison if they can just come back from it...or use a wish for their vampire lord status to be permanently suppressed. (hah, easier)

[Chilingsworth]

The only problem I see with the vampire lord template is that I have no intention of being dominated by my progenitor at all (I'll be 20th level, the progenitor will be level 9 or less, I'll exceed his/her HD limit even without any other minions.) Also, I'd like to have the option to reward my progenitor, rather than having to kill him/her.

The time requirement isn't likely to be a problem, as I'd expect the transformation into a vampire lord to happen in the epilogue, anyway.

[almightycoma]

since this is happening in an epilog you should become a lich then a demilich they are pretty sweet.
I mean come on who doesn't love keeping souls as snacks in your teeth?:smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

I didn't see anything in the VL entry about removing the stupid "ask permission to enter all buildings" restriction. You won't find many liches forced to wait on the PCs' porch because they know better than to answer the door.

Also, you could just as easily spend those 100 years becoming a demilich instead, and without the silliness of foiling a required assassination attempt.

[Urpriest]

Are you sure your DM is allowing you to postpone this? It sounds like the sort of thing your DM is planning to come up in the near-term.

[Morcleon]

I didn't see anything in the VL entry about removing the stupid "ask permission to enter all buildings" restriction. You won't find many liches forced to wait on the PCs' porch because they know better than to answer the door.

There's actually quite a simple solution to this:

1. Vampire Lords get control weather and telekinesis at-will.
2. There's no restriction against entering a large pile of rubble. :smallamused:

[The Viscount]

I will also say lich. At the end of the day, being undead gives you a rather frightening weakness: things like disintegrate kill you, and once you are dead, you cannot be brought back, except through revive undead (which will cost you a level) or resurrection (which will bring you back as a living being). If you die as a vampire through running water or sunlight, it's over. If you die as a lich, you're fine and back with no penalty, though your party might have to go on without you for a while. While your phylactery may be destroyed as a lich, you can simply get a true resurrection and then make another. Becoming a vampire ultimately depends on trusting another vampire, as well as trusting your DM not to use it against you. Also, your coffin can be destroyed, too, and there are no rules for designating a "home coffin" so that might be it, or you might just carry 50. Either way, you will need to bring it with you, and coffins are conspicuous.

[Psyren]

There's actually quite a simple solution to this:

1. Vampire Lords get control weather and telekinesis at-will.
2. There's no restriction against entering a large pile of rubble. :smallamused:

1) 10 minutes is plenty of time to retreat to the next safehouse.
2) Good luck using either of those on our fortified underground bunker with a MMM inside :smalltongue:

Come to think of it, what counts as a "home" anyway? Can a vampire enter a rope trick without its wizard's permission? Can they get to anyone's private demiplane without permission, ever?

[gooddragon1]

Only possible problem is a marut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut). But that's really up to the DM to send one of those after you.

Lich is in most ways superior.

If you had another option I'd go with necropolitan (no level adjustment).

[TuggyNE]

Come to think of it, what counts as a "home" anyway? Can a vampire enter a rope trick without its wizard's permission? Can they get to anyone's private demiplane without permission, ever?

It says "home or other building"; maybe the requirement is a non-public edifice with a threshold?

[Morcleon]

It says "home or other building"; maybe the requirement is a non-public edifice with a threshold?

Like a lot of things in D&D, it's never been properly defined. I think this sums it up nicely:


They are utterly unable to enter a home or other private residence unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so. A private residence is defined as a place that is owned by a specific person or person, legally. If no deed to the property exists, the space is treated as public to the vampire. A space whose total area exceeds 3000 square feet is never considered to be a private residence, even if a deed for such a space exists. However, inside one of these large spaces where a deed does exist, the vampire is unable to enter a private bedroom or other area whose primary purpose is for resting and whose ownership belongs clearly to an individual or a specific group of individuals who share the space equally (unless he has permission from the individual or from one or more of the group of individuals who own the space). Vampires may freely enter public places, since these are by definition open to all.

[Chilingsworth]

Are you sure your DM is allowing you to postpone this? It sounds like the sort of thing your DM is planning to come up in the near-term.

Pretty sure, yeah. I've discussed this with him and he seems ok with my desire not to turn until 20th level. In any case, it would be completely voluntary, so it wont be forced on me.

[The Viscount]

Only possible problem is a marut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut). But that's really up to the DM to send one of those after you.

Maruts are actually quite poorly designed to take down a lich. Its fists aren't magic, so deal 2d6-3 after DR. Fists of Thunder and Lightning are incapable of blinding or deafening a lich, and the electricity damage from the right fist is negated by immunity. Of its SLAs, fear, greater command, mass inflict light wounds, geas, circle of death, and chain lightning all have no effect on a lich, and all but the last are similarly useless against its undead minions. Earthquake works but is once a week. Marut can use Greater Dispel at will, and that is pretty bad, but even the weakest lich is only 3 caster levels below him, assuming no boosts, and liches are the type to boost their caster level. All in all, not the best man for the job.

[Morph Bark]

1) 10 minutes is plenty of time to retreat to the next safehouse.

SLAs require a standard action to use, unless otherwise specified.