Redcloak missed one

[theinsulabot]

perhaps this is a super slow response to something everyone else already figured out, but Redcloak has made a critical mistake.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html

He didn't stop niu. judging from the fact that he either has or would kill anyone one this plane, loyal followers included, my suspicion is he has no idea a message sneaked out. When the order and xykon meet, if they happen to exchange words and banter, as so often is the case, the subject of xykon's phylactery would be a likely choice. As a result, either Hinjo or the order could unintentionally fill xykon in on the fact that red cloak had been duplicitous with the phylactery and its recovery.

Thoughts?

[Kareasint]

They knew that Redcloak recovered the phylactery. They did not know that Redcloak switched it for a fake which took place later after Niu was already out of the area.

[fergo]

Sorry if I've missed something, but all Niu knows is that Redcloak got the phylactery back from the resistance... which, if I recall correctly, is exactly what Redcloak told Xykon.

Presumably she was well out of there before Redcloak's comment about secrecy (indeed, if she wasn't, there doesn't seem to be any way she could have avoided the attention of her enemies).

So, as far as I can see, there's nothing Niu could tell the Order that would jeopardize Redcloak. :smallconfused:

[Kish]

Indeed, I find myself wondering what, exactly, the big secret was that caused Redcloak to leave his spy dead, since the story he told Xykon was "I crushed the Resistance and recovered your phylactery" anyway.

The only thing I can think of is, "Very explicit orders to call for the Supreme Leader, not Xykon or anyone else, when the phylactery is discovered."

[theinsulabot]

They knew that Redcloak recovered the phylactery. They did not know that Redcloak switched it for a fake which took place later after Niu was already out of the area.



I know, but redcloak would have executed his follower at the hide out and disintegrated the corpse of one of his race's master craftsmen to keep the details secret. My guess it took him a while to completely recast everything he needed to on the amulet so has a blank of time between retrieving the real amulet, and presenting the fake to xykon he is trying desperately to prevent anyone from revealing.

admittedly I don't play DnD so I don't know how long it takes to pile on as many enchantments as the amulet has on it, but I'm guessing its long enough to be noticeable.

[Winter]

I wonder what the big reveal is this thread is for. Someone escaped and carries information that was not meant to get out. D'uh? Of course that was not planned and I think the comic was pretty obvious about that. Niu got screenlight and speech panels.

Xykon and the elves/Azurites surely won't talk but even if they did, what could they exchange?
Elf/Azurite: "Well, your goblin killed The Resistance and brought the phylactery back to you!!!1"
Xykon: "I noticed that already. Energy Drain".

Why the spy had to die seems a bit overcareful to me, but I think Redcloak simply does not want to make any mistake. Even a "Report to me, not to Xykon" would be no surprise. If Xykon learned about that order, he'd ask Redcloak "Yeah, why should he report to me? It's your job to puzz around and govern this piece of rubble. I go play Twister."
Redcloak cannot be certain the spy did not learn something with the Resistance he does not know about, so he removes that risk. Redcloak is simply very thorough given the risks his plan involves.

[Winter]

I know, but redcloak would have executed his follower at the hide out and disintegrated the corpse of one of his race's master craftsmen to keep the details secret.

That's no surprise at all as the craftsman knows about the two phylacteries. It's a completely different case than the spy, as the former knows "a lot that could get Redcloak killed" and the latter, as far as we can oversee it, had no dangerous knowledge at all.

[Kish]

Even if Redcloak was trying to hide lost time, I'm having a real hard time seeing how Niu's survival would lead to it being revealed. "Foul lich! Your goblin slaughtered the resistance at exactly 4:52 on Thursday!" :xykon: "Wait, 4:52? Why didn't you bring the phylactery to me until 6:30, Redcloak? And yes, I memorized the exact time you brought it to me!"

[theinsulabot]

That's no surprise at all as the craftsman knows about the two phylacteries. It's a completely different case than the spy, as the former knows "a lot that could get Redcloak killed" and the latter, as far as we can oversee it, had no dangerous knowledge at all.


that kind of supports my case since RC actually said flat out he would have executed the spy, implying his information was to the point that RC would kill a goblin in cold blood to keep his secrets.

As to why, again, my theory is that attaching like a thousand abjurations to the fake took RC a few hours and he is dealing with the fact that he cant answer what he was doing during that time by preventing the knowledge of exactly when the raid took place from getting to xykon. if he assaults the hide out in the morning, spends the afternoon making the fake look real and then tells xykon he took the base in the evening, he covers his tracks.


Even if Redcloak was trying to hide lost time, I'm having a real hard time seeing how Niu's survival would lead to it being revealed. "Foul lich! Your goblin slaughtered the resistance at exactly 4:52 on Thursday!" :xykon: "Wait, 4:52? Why didn't you bring the phylactery to me until 6:30, Redcloak? And yes, I memorized the exact time you brought it to me!"

you don't think something like "on the morning of so and so we heard the phylactery had been recovered" might not cause xykon to wonder why he didn't hear of it till that night?

Xykon, in certain situations is actually quite intelligent. he is already provably suspicious of RC right now, such a reveal would be very unfortunate, from RC's perspective.

[Codyage]

Even if Redcloak was trying to hide lost time, I'm having a real hard time seeing how Niu's survival would lead to it being revealed. "Foul lich! Your goblin slaughtered the resistance at exactly 4:52 on Thursday!" :xykon: "Wait, 4:52? Why didn't you bring the phylactery to me until 6:30, Redcloak? And yes, I memorized the exact time you brought it to me!"

:redcloak: Remember? I also took the liberty of putting it on a new chain as well. And in a handsome faux leather carrying case.

[Kish]

you don't think something like "on the morning of so and so we heard the phylactery had been recovered" might not cause xykon to wonder why he didn't hear of it till that night?

It might, but the time involved was clearly nowhere near that long.

Tsukiko came to Redcloak's study (...just before Redcloak got back, and well before he started casting spells on the fake phylactery...) already knowing the phylactery had been discovered, and its discovery reported to Xykon. Redcloak went straight to his study with the phylactery, and confronted Tsukiko there. After killing her, he started casting spells on the fake phylactery as he walked to bring it to Xykon. Presumably he cast a few spells off-panel, between saying the word "Greater--" and reaching the creature in the darkness, but unless you're suggesting that from Redcloak's study to the creature in the darkness' box is a walk that takes multiple hours...and even if you are, Xykon would know that there were lost hours between the phylactery being found, stolen, and recovered. (And if there was any error in concealing this hypothetical time-skip, it would be in saying that he killed Tsukiko ten minutes ago, if Tsukiko actually disappeared hours ago.)

(I also wonder how long you're thinking Jirix would have survived Xykon's rage.)

[zimmerwald1915]

:redcloak: Nuh-uh. Her escape was all according to plan.

[Morty]

The way I see it, Redcloak killed the spy to cover all possible bases. He didn't want there to be even the slightest chance of Xykon noticing anything is amiss. If the spy had survived, there was a chance that he might slip something that would make Xykon suspicious - a small chance, but still more than Redcloak was willing to allow. Niu's survival, on the other hand has no relevance to Redcloak's plans.

[Winter]

as to why, again, my theory is that attaching like a thousand abjurations to the fake took RC a few hours and he is dealing with the fact that he cant answer what he was doing during that time by preventing the knowledge of exactly when the raid took place from getting to xykon. if he assaults the hide out in the morning, spends the afternoon making the fake look real and then tells xykon he took the base in the evening, he covers his tracks.

A) We only see Redcloak casting prepared (memorized or on scrolls) spells on the go.
B) You mean he wants to hide a "a few hour-gap" from the Xykon that had arrived just minutes ago (enough to make Jirix get blue, but not enough to make him die). We're looking at a max of 10 minutes. How could Redcloak have brought the thing to Xykon earlier when Xykon wasn't even in town (or on the plane).

I'm seeing no reason at all to kill the Spy but to be "really cautious". Note I understand Redcloak taking that approach but we have not seen any better reason so far.

[factotum]

The only danger having the spy around would cause is if he somehow noticed that the phylactery Xykon had was not the one he recovered--and the chances of that ever happening is practically zero. In fact, that whole section almost suggests the Giant changed his mind halfway through--for instance, why was Redcloak so sure to make Tsukiko's wights eat her, then themselves, then burn the remnants in the fireplace, only to blurt out that he killed her as soon as he walked into Xykon's presence? Never have understood that.

[Koo Rehtorb]

The only danger having the spy around would cause is if he somehow noticed that the phylactery Xykon had was not the one he recovered--and the chances of that ever happening is practically zero. In fact, that whole section almost suggests the Giant changed his mind halfway through--for instance, why was Redcloak so sure to make Tsukiko's wights eat her, then themselves, then burn the remnants in the fireplace, only to blurt out that he killed her as soon as he walked into Xykon's presence? Never have understood that.

Because Tsukiko figured out that the ritual to control the Snarl doesn't work as Redcloak told Xykon it worked. He couldn't have taken a chance on her being raised.

Edit - the wights are also intelligent and were present for the conversation. They could also have repeated the conversation to someone. Unlikely, but possible.

[FujinAkari]

In fact, that whole section almost suggests the Giant changed his mind halfway through--for instance, why was Redcloak so sure to make Tsukiko's wights eat her, then themselves, then burn the remnants in the fireplace, only to blurt out that he killed her as soon as he walked into Xykon's presence? Never have understood that.

Without Tsukiko, the wights are mindless undead and will go on a rampage, killing half of Gobtopia.

However, Wights are controlled by the Wight that created them, so by giving them all an order to consume themselves in reverse order (so his order would never be jeapardized by the one who was fulfilling it dying and control transferring) he ensured that the wights were never able to threaten the city.

[dancrilis]

Leaving the spy alive allows Xykon to find out that Redcloak knew the location of the resistance for months, it also allows Gobbotopia citizens to know that he didn't do a thing about them during that time while they acted as a murderous terrorist organization.
I would say that killing the spy had very little to do with the phylactery.

[Winter]

Leaving the spy alive allows Xykon to find out that Redcloak knew the location of the resistance for months,

Xykon does not care about the Resistance killing some goblins. In fact, letting the Resistance exist while knowing about it and thus letting the Azurites and Elves live in the illusion they are in control is actually the right strategic solution. If Redcloak had wiped out the Resistance earlier, the opposition would just have made another attempt and this time, they might be more careful or just stay hidden by sheer luck.

Redcloak stomped them in the right moment. Xykon would agree. And Xykon would even more agree it was way funnier and meaner to let them think they won before stomping them.

I strongly doubt he'd get in trouble over this.

The point is: He is not risking anything. Therefore, the Spy had to go.

As for Tsukiko: Redcloak had to explain why Tsukiko could not come along after Xykon explicitly said he wanted her. He could not stay silent, he wanted to move on smoothly. No investiagtion, no thinking. So he solved the issue then and there in the fastest possible way (and he was sure it'd work, given what he knows of Xykon).
That he destroyed the wights is also no surprise: They are powerful and uncontrollable undead (weapons, in his mind) and he can't have them run around and kill goblins.
Also, as it was already pointed out, they listened to the conversation and as such had to get turned into dust as well.

[zimmerwald1915]

Xykon does not care about the Resistance killing some goblins.
The second consideration dancrilis brings up might have more weight. Redcloak doesn't want to jeopardize his standing in the eyes of Gobbotopians. He likes being their hero, if not necessarily their supreme leader, and he wants to retire there when the Plan is complete.

[Winter]

Redcloak doesn't want to jeopardize his standing in the eyes of Gobbotopians.

He is by definition as the High Priest of the Dark One the boss. So I doubt this plays a big role.

And for the argument how Xykon takes this or that the standing of RC with Gobbotopia plays no role at all.

I think what made Redcloak to think he was forced to kill the spy has to be a Xykon-interaction, if it was just about Gobbotopia, he'd not have killed him (and I fail to see where the Spy living could pose a problem for Redcloaks standing in Gobbotopia). Whatever this was about, I am fairly certain it was about Xykon.

[The Giant]

It's simple tidying up. The spy was ordered to report directly to Redcloak and only Redcloak, even though squashing the Resistance had been assigned to Tsukiko (and Jirix has assumed general command of the city). That discrepancy alone could cause someone to become suspicious—someone like Tsukiko herself, since he didn't know he was about to kill her when he made those comments.


In fact, that whole section almost suggests the Giant changed his mind halfway through--for instance, why was Redcloak so sure to make Tsukiko's wights eat her, then themselves, then burn the remnants in the fireplace, only to blurt out that he killed her as soon as he walked into Xykon's presence? Never have understood that.

Speak With Dead requires a mostly-intact corpse in order to function, as does Raise Dead. Redcloak drastically reduced the possibility that Xykon could question Tsukiko, the craftsman, or even the wights about his scheme by eliminating their corpses. As far as spur-of-the-moment cover-ups go, it's pretty effective.

I've said this before, but the fact that you don't know why I wrote something a certain way does not mean that I don't know why I wrote something a certain way.

[AgentofHellfire]

The only danger having the spy around would cause is if he somehow noticed that the phylactery Xykon had was not the one he recovered--and the chances of that ever happening is practically zero. In fact, that whole section almost suggests the Giant changed his mind halfway through--for instance, why was Redcloak so sure to make Tsukiko's wights eat her, then themselves, then burn the remnants in the fireplace, only to blurt out that he killed her as soon as he walked into Xykon's presence? Never have understood that.



Having her own undead kill her could've just been sadism acting.

EDIT: ...but apparently not. Wanting Tsukiko dead on a visceral as well as pragmatic level probably helped, though.

[rewinn]

I had assumed that killing the spy was intended to preserve the spy's tradecraft from disclosure, as in so many spy novels. We now have the Word Of The Giant otherwise (... unless of course that is just further protection of tradecraft :smalltongue: ... if a sufficiently high-level thief can swipe a diamond from the Cast Page, can a sufficiently high-level spy mine the forum for information?:smalleek:)

[factotum]

I've said this before, but the fact that you don't know why I wrote something a certain way does not mean that I don't know why I wrote something a certain way.

I know that, which is why I said it "almost" suggested you changed your mind. :smallbiggrin:

[KillianHawkeye]

Without Tsukiko, the wights are mindless undead and will go on a rampage, killing half of Gobtopia.

Wights are not mindless. They are unlikely to go on a rampage when they can very easily use strategy and tactics to ensure that they destroy ALL of Gobbotopia.

Of course, Tsukiko's wights were a tad dense on the Intelligence scale, or shall we say... childlike. But they're definitely a few grades above simple zombies, and given a chance to determine their own fates, I'm sure they would have come up with some sort of plan to ensure a steady supply of fresh bodies to eat.

[Winter]

Wights are not mindless. [...]

Whatever you say there is an even stronger reason for Redcloak to destroy them.

[KillianHawkeye]

Whatever you say there is an even stronger reason for Redcloak to destroy them.

Yes... your point being? I wasn't arguing against destroying them.

[Kornaki]

It was stated that Redcloak knew that the Resistance planted a spy in the goblin ranks. Presumably he let this spy live so that the resistance could steal the phylactery (which he could steal back, giving him a chance to have some alone time with it). The goblin spy probably knew about the resistance spy (since everyone in the resistance did) and Xykon would flip a lid and a half if he knew that Redcloak literally let the resistance have the phylactery for no reason

[FujinAkari]

It was stated that Redcloak knew that the Resistance planted a spy in the goblin ranks. Presumably he let this spy live so that the resistance could steal the phylactery (which he could steal back, giving him a chance to have some alone time with it). The goblin spy probably knew about the resistance spy (since everyone in the resistance did) and Xykon would flip a lid and a half if he knew that Redcloak literally let the resistance have the phylactery for no reason

... what?

Ok, first of all, the Resistance didn't steal the Phylactory, Vaarsuvius did.

Second of all, even if the Resistance did... why would he go through all that work in order to get some alone time with his own holy symbol? He already HAS infinite alone time with it!

Xykon WOULD flip because Redcloak WOULD be doing it for NO reason.

[ChristianSt]

It was stated that Redcloak knew that the Resistance planted a spy in the goblin ranks. Presumably he let this spy live so that the resistance could steal the phylactery (which he could steal back, giving him a chance to have some alone time with it). The goblin spy probably knew about the resistance spy (since everyone in the resistance did) and Xykon would flip a lid and a half if he knew that Redcloak literally let the resistance have the phylactery for no reason
... what?

Ok, first of all, the Resistance didn't steal the Phylactory, Vaarsuvius did.

Second of all, even if the Resistance did... why would he go through all that work in order to get some alone time with his own holy symbol? He already HAS infinite alone time with it!

Xykon WOULD flip because Redcloak WOULD be doing it for NO reason.

Vaarsuvius tried to throw in the rift and lost it (659 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html)/660 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0660.html)).
After being found (823 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0823.html)) the Resistance stole it (824 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0824.html)).

I think this is fine reasoning - Redcloak could have argued about it might by valuable to could feed him false information, but so he doesn't even need to. Whitout the Resistances intervening he would have been forced to tell Jirix about it (since the phylactery should go straight to him), so letting them the possibilty to steal it was crucial. (Sure, maybe he could have told Jirix more, but safer for Redcloak if nobody else knows anything).

And before V's action Redcloak has thought he not needed a fake phylactery.

[Winter]

We know exactly how Xykon reacts to the Resistance stealing the phylactery. We saw it in the comic. And we also saw he stopped caring the moment he believed the thing to be aquired.

Xykon is only caring for results and if the Resistance does not pose an issue to his results he does not care at all. Redcloak had no problem at all in that regard.

[Mr. Pants]

It might, but the time involved was clearly nowhere near that long.

Tsukiko came to Redcloak's study (...just before Redcloak got back, and well before he started casting spells on the fake phylactery...) already knowing the phylactery had been discovered, and its discovery reported to Xykon. Redcloak went straight to his study with the phylactery, and confronted Tsukiko there. After killing her, he started casting spells on the fake phylactery as he walked to bring it to Xykon. Presumably he cast a few spells off-panel, between saying the word "Greater--" and reaching the creature in the darkness, but unless you're suggesting that from Redcloak's study to the creature in the darkness' box is a walk that takes multiple hours...and even if you are, Xykon would know that there were lost hours between the phylactery being found, stolen, and recovered. (And if there was any error in concealing this hypothetical time-skip, it would be in saying that he killed Tsukiko ten minutes ago, if Tsukiko actually disappeared hours ago.)

(I also wonder how long you're thinking Jirix would have survived Xykon's rage.)

You could say that the hobgoblin spy foreshadowed her ultimate fate. :largeeek:

Anyways, so far :redcloak: has covered his tracks pretty good. But how long do you think he can keep it up? It's probably only a matter of time before :xykon: finds out he's trying to stab him in the back...

[Mordae]

The dialogue in 833 seems to imply rather strongly that Xykon already knows Redcloak doesn't trust him, that Xykon was working behind the scenes to uncover Redcloak's duplicity, and further that Xykon is fully willing to "smoke" Redcloak (or any other uppity minion) if that's what it takes to achieve world domination. At this point, it's simply a matter of positioning themselves to strike the first blow.

[Snails]

The goblin spy might have revealed information that implied Redcloak could have squashed the Resistance days or weeks ago. By not doing so, Redcloak allowed the phylactery to fall into elven hands. Even if in enemy hands for mere minutes, Xykon might simply kill Redcloak for that decision.

But it is worse than that, because there is no obvious gain to Redcloak for doing so. This is where the real trouble lies. Xykon might well guess that Redcloak was purposefully using the Resistance as a distraction.

Now the question becomes whether Xykon guesses incorrectly that the Resistance was just a lame excuse for Redcloak sitting on his keester in Goblotopia, or does Xykon guess the real reason -- that Redcloak was using the distraction of the Resistance for a few unaccountable minutes with the phylactery?

[Winter]

The dialogue in 833 seems to imply rather strongly that Xykon already knows Redcloak doesn't trust him,

Did you read Start of Darkness?

Xykon knows Redcloak hates him.