Help with rogue

[Newoblivion]

We have a group of fighter 4 / crusaider 1, Barb 5, wiz 1 / Shadowcaster 3 / Noct 1, Cleric 5, and a rogue 5.

I have noticed that as the time progressed our rogue friend doesn't find a place for himself in the group. We only need him to open locks or find traps, but when we enter combat he is not that useful. Not the best BAB, not the best AC and he can't do high damage directly like the barb or the cruesader.

I promised him that I will find a way to aid him. Now, the idea is to stay within his character idea. I can't just ask him to take levels in Swordsage unless it will have a solid connection to the character's story.

So the character's concept is a dwarf which is like a government agent (kinda like James Bond) and he is dual wielding two short swords. He told me that he doesn't have to do a lot of damage in order to have fun. But, he want to feel useful and that he is contributing to the group.

What do you guys think?

[JeminiZero]

But, he want to feel useful and that he is contributing to the group.

Is there any more precise reason why he does not want Swordsage? I mean, I don't see any reason why a Dwarf Secret Agent who dual-wields Shortswords can't be a Swordsage.

Other than that, the best place to start is to read some guides, like this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233).

[Newoblivion]

Well. Mostly because Swordsage have more "magic like" abilities. And there won't be any explanation as to why suddenly in the middle of the dungeon he can summon small fire elementals and control shadows.

[Karnith]

Well. Mostly because Swordsage have more "magic like" abilities. And there're won't be any explanation as to why suddenly in the middle of the dungeon he can summon small fire elementals and control shadows.
You could just ask him to not take the supernatural Swordsage manuevers/stances like those in the Desert Wind and Shadow Hand disciplines; Diamond Mind and Setting Sun seem like they'd be perfectly appropriate for a secret agent type, Stone Dragon is just hitting things really hard, and Tiger Claw is just a way to do cool things with the two short swords shtick.

[Pickford]

Do you never let them get into flanking positions with the fighter for their sneak attack damage?

I had that issue sometimes on a rogue, where we would always encounter exactly the number of enemies as there were pcs.

[Newoblivion]

Flanking is not the problem. He is doing great job at that. But he is quite a new player, and I think that he got the impression that the lower your BAB is the higher your damage potential. But when he saw the barb doing more then 30 damage with a dagger while charging and our cruesader just owning things, he kinda lost his motivation, because how easy they can just deal damage.

I tried to explain that he have much more skills, and that he can contribute to the party in more ways then just combat. But I can somehow understand him. I am looking for a way to make him feel useful and cool.

[King Atticus]

If you can talk him in to even a 1 lvl dip in Swordsage he'd be better off. It would give him access to the 'Island of Blades' stance so if both he and an ally are adjacent to the same creature, the two of them both gain the benefit for flanking that opponent (triggering S.A.). It would then allow him to take The feats 'Shadow Blade' which allows him to use his Dex mod for damage instead of Str when using a Shadow Hand weapon (this includes short sword). He could also take the feat 'Craven' (if you can get around the FR setting specific b.s.) which allows for an extra point of damage per CL on a sneak attack. It would also grant him (close enough) weapon focus for his weapon freeing up a feat slot or just adding to his to hit plus a little nudge to his Initiative bonus.

All this can be re-fluffed into super-spy training benefits. The stance & Shadow Blade feat because he's been trained when & where to hit a distracted opponent to get max effect, Craven (relabeled Wary) is because he's always on his guard.

All of these things are great for a sneak-attack rogue and would make his combat a lot more fun. He can go back to full Rogue-type normal progression after that if he wants to and be much more effective.

[Curmudgeon]

3/4 BAB limits your combat effectiveness. TWF penalties rub salt in the wound. If you don't hit, you don't deal any sneak attack (or other) damage.

I suggest the Rogue dump the dual short swords and Two-Weapon Fighting feat for a single rapier and Craven feat. He'll hit more often, won't be restricted to full attacks, and will do more damage on every sneak attack. Also the higher critical threat range, and the fact that Craven damage isn't from dice, means its bonus will get multiplied on critical hits. Then with only a single weapon to improve, getting that up to +1 keen status (threat range improved to 15-20) will be more affordable.

[Newoblivion]

3/4 BAB limits your combat effectiveness. TWF penalties rub salt in the wound. If you don't hit, you don't deal any sneak attack (or other) damage.

I suggest the Rogue dump the dual short swords and Two-Weapon Fighting feat for a single rapier and Craven feat. He'll hit more often, won't be restricted to full attacks, and will do more damage on every sneak attack. Also the higher critical threat range, and the fact that Craven damage isn't from dice, means its bonus will get multiplied on critical hits. Then with only a single weapon to improve, getting that up to +1 keen status (threat range improved to 15-20) will be more affordable.

This is a great idea. I will talk to him about it. Not sure if he will go with the -2 vs fear though.

[Pickford]

Flanking is not the problem. He is doing great job at that. But he is quite a new player, and I think that he got the impression that the lower your BAB is the higher your damage potential. But when he saw the barb doing more then 30 damage with a dagger while charging and our cruesader just owning things, he kinda lost his motivation, because how easy they can just deal damage.

I tried to explain that he have much more skills, and that he can contribute to the party in more ways then just combat. But I can somehow understand him. I am looking for a way to make him feel useful and cool.

Hrm....1d4 + StrMod(+7 raging)..8-11...if they hit a 9 and crit for x2 full...22 damage.

How'd the barbarian get another 8 damage? Magic item?

[Newoblivion]

Hrm....1d4 + StrMod(+7 raging)..8-11...if they hit a 9 and crit for x2 full...22 damage.

How'd the barbarian get another 8 damage? Magic item?

Headlong Rush, 24 str while raging (+7), he critted. So it was 3d4+21.

[Pickford]

Ok I can't figure it out...why a dagger? (instead of anything else which deals more damage)

[ArcturusV]

Any chance you can get him into the Gadget Racket? Which is both very dwarfy, and very James Bondish. If he had Craft (Alchemy) or even Craft (Poisons) or Craft (Traps) or something it would open up quite a number of options for him to contribute in meaningful ways. There's almost always something under one of those categories that you may want to use in a fight. Or just in general.

[Newoblivion]

Ok I can't figure it out...why a dagger? (instead of anything else which deals more damage)

He uses a two handed sword. But an evil cleric used a command spell or something on him. So he dropped his main weapon and ren to the other side of the room. Then, no longer under the affect of the spell he draw his dagger and charged at the cleric.

[Menzath]

Well one thing that no one mentioned is... UMD! (Use Magic Device.) exactly games bond like in the use of trinkets/tools. Can be used to AMAZING effect at times. Get a wand of ray of enfeeblementand and those pesky heavy armor types you fight suddenly can't even move, or if they can thier abilities are severly reduced. A scroll of antimagic zone. Now those enemy casters and beholders are a joke to fight.
There are an amazing amount of utility spells and items out there that you can use. I myself have a list 2+ pages long of stuff to get for my rogue still, and thats not including custom made items! Having scrolls and wands of these spells handy also lets your casters freely prepare different spells as well(though they could benfit from investing in those as well).

[Newoblivion]

Any chance you can get him into the Gadget Racket? Which is both very dwarfy, and very James Bondish. If he had Craft (Alchemy) or even Craft (Poisons) or Craft (Traps) or something it would open up quite a number of options for him to contribute in meaningful ways. There's almost always something under one of those categories that you may want to use in a fight. Or just in general.

Where can I find this PRC?

[Newoblivion]

Well one thing that no one mentioned is... UMD! (Use Magic Device.) exactly games bond like in the use of trinkets/tools. Can be used to AMAZING effect at times. Get a wand of ray of enfeeblementand and those pesky heavy armor types you fight suddenly can't even move, or if they can thier abilities are severly reduced. A scroll of antimagic zone. Now those enemy casters and beholders are a joke to fight.
There are an amazing amount of utility spells and items out there that you can use. I myself have a list 2+ pages long of stuff to get for my rogue still, and thats not including custom made items! Having scrolls and wands of these spells handy also lets your casters freely prepare different spells as well(though they could benfit from investing in those as well).

Yeah, he is maxxing UMD. I will try to make him some scrolls with my wizard, though I am not sure how Shadow Weave items are affecting UMD users..

[Qwertystop]

Where can I find this PRC?

Not a PrC. He's just saying "make lots of gadgets".

[ArcturusV]

Yes. Via the Craft Skill. Which is a Class Skill for him so it would be really easy to dump enough points into one of them to be viable next time he has skill points coming his way.

As far as places that have a lot of decent traps/poisons? A wide variety of source books. Vile Darkness and Exalted Deeds both have quite a number of poisons as I recall. Think Complete Adventurer did too. Most of the terrain based ones like Stormwrack, Frostburn, etc, if I remember correctly.

[Chilingsworth]

Where can I find this PRC?

It's not a PrC as such. Just taking ranks in the Craft skills alchemy, poison making, and trapmaking.

There are trap making PrC's in complete scoundrel and dungeonscape, I believe.

[thethird]

Not to burst people bubbles but he would need to be a spellcaster to use craft (alchemy).

I will go with Curmudgeon suggestion, the most important about sneak attacking is hitting at least once.

Also, if he is so focused on melee combat making a daring outlaw might be a good idea.

Something like rogue 3 / swashbuckler x works really well if the intention is to deal damage.

Being a dwarf a dwarven waraxe might also be a good change of weapon (it has a nice base damage and the crit is x3) or a dwarven warspike (nothing says surprise mother****ers like a dwarven warspike).

If he doesn't have penetrating strike from dungeonscape he should take it (it would make its sneak attack more reliable), it also works wonders with craven.

[Newoblivion]

Those are great ideas people! he is more interested in feeling awesome then actually doing damage. So I think I will talk to him about dropping the TWF and taking some crafts so he will be able to make funky stuff.

Also, I found this PRC, Nightsong infiltrator. Now, I know he is not the best in combat but I do think that it will add more to the character. And I think that he will like the idea of how this PRC affect the rest of the group.

[Newoblivion]

Not to burst people bubbles but he would need to be a spellcaster to use craft (alchemy).

I will go with Curmudgeon suggestion, the most important about sneak attacking is hitting at least once.

Also, if he is so focused on melee combat making a daring outlaw might be a good idea.

Something like rogue 3 / swashbuckler x works really well if the intention is to deal damage.

Being a dwarf a dwarven waraxe might also be a good change of weapon (it has a nice base damage and the crit is x3) or a dwarven warspike (nothing says surprise mother****ers like a dwarven warspike).

If he doesn't have penetrating strike from dungeonscape he should take it (it would make its sneak attack more reliable), it also works wonders with craven.

The thing is that he is the only one in our group that can find traps and pick locks. So with the 4+int skills of the swashbuckler he will have a hard time..

[thethird]

I would add the golden hand of vergadain (dwarf only rogue ACF) at level two to get favored enemy: rival organization. That would give him a bonus when dealing with the enemies of its organization, since he seems based on a secret agent that will probably work pretty well.

edit. If he is the only one picking locks / detecting traps... well then UMD him something, a wand of knock could do wonders.

[Menzath]

as A rogue if you don't go combat feats @ lvl1 do bother. get magic items. Namely Heartseeking amulet + deathstrike bracers.

They are more effective if you have combat feats, but it more than fills the gap for those without.
Also scrolls/wands of flame blade(PH) Flame Dagger (SC) Flame Whips (SC) and I think the name of the spell is Thunder Lance (Also SC(Spell Compendium)) make you very effective in combat.
(P.S. touch attacks ignore DR)

[Curmudgeon]

This is a great idea. I will talk to him about it. Not sure if he will go with the -2 vs fear though.
There's a way to address that, if it's a significant concern. The Uncanny Bravery ACF (Dragon Magic, page 14) trades Improved Uncanny Dodge for the ability to ignore Dragon Frightful Presence, and a general +4 to resist other fear effects. This more than makes up for the drawback of Craven. He would have to live with the vulnerability until level 8, though.

[Zman]

You could give my Rogue Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14438831&postcount=1) a shot. Should give him a needed boost in combat while allowing him to stay true to concept.

Otherwise a dip in swordsage for isle of blades and shadow blade for a feat would go nicely.