Critical Range and Multiplier Increasers?

[Larkas]

In another thread, lots of people threw around how much they liked 3E's critical stacking rule, and how senseless was the 3.5's removal of it (specially in a game where uberchargers and god wizards are a thing). Further reading led me to SKR's blog (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/keenimprovedcritstacking.html), on a rant he made about how Improved Critical and Keen should stack, and it seems that, at least for this once, he made sense. I want to test a hypothesis. I want to know if critical stacking, by itself, would make TWF a viable* archetype for melee. For this, I need to know all the 3E/3.5 critical range and critical multiplier increasers. Could you guys help me with this? So far, this is what I could find:

Critical Range

Improved Critical SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedCritical): Feat. Doubles threat range.

Keen SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#keen): Weapon property. Doubles threat range. Available only to piercing and slashing weapons.

Keen Edge SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/keenEdge.htm): Spell. Doubles threat range. Available only to piercing and slashing weapons.

Weapon Master (Kensei) OA: Ki Critical class feature. Increases the threat range by +2. The bonus is always applied last, and as such isn't multiplied.

Spikes CD: Spell. Doubles threat range. Available only to wooden weapons.

Disciple of Dispater BoVD: Iron Power class feature. Doubles/triples threat range. Specifically doesn't stack with Keen. Available only to iron and steel weapons.

Streetfighter Ci WE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a): Alternate class feature. Increases the threat range by +1 when charging or attacking flat-footed foes.

Critical Multiplier

Kaorti Resin FF, RE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a): Weapon material. Weapon multiplier is x4. Available only to piercing and slashing weapons.

Weapon Master (Kensei) OA: Increased Multiplier class feature. Increases the multiplier by 1. Usable only a few times per day.

Dragondoom Dr: Feat. Increases the multiplier by set steps. Usable only against dragons.

Master Thrower CW: Thrown Weapon Trick (Deadeye Shot) class feature. Increases the multiplier by 1. Available only to thrown weapons. Doesn't stack with anything else.

Deepwood Sniper MotW: Projectile Improved Critical class feature. Increases the multiplier by one/two. Available only to projectile weapons.

I must be missing stuff. I'm looking at first and second party material here (hence, Dragon Magazine is in). Could you guys please help me with this?

* From an optimization point of view.

[Snowbluff]

Um... Improving the crit mods would help 2H just as much as TWFers.

The TWF problem is the number of feats it takes.

[Larkas]

Um... Improving the crit mods would help 2H just as much as TWFers.

The TWF problem is the number of feats it takes.

I know, I know, but you must take a set number of feats to optimize THF, and these feats do not scale well for TWF. While feats that improve critical could indeed be used for THF, they would scale just as well for TWF :smallsmile: In theory, at least. I was already going to include a critical-optimized THF as part of the control group. :smallbiggrin:

[GreenETC]

Technically, the Disciple of Dispater specifically calls out Keen, but then Impact was made, which is Keen for bludgeoning. That means you could technically stack those even without Imp. Crit. The hard part of critting is that you have to confirm, but in places where they don't apply the confirm rule, this might get a bit silly.

A Minotaur Greathammer with Impact and Dispater's boost would be 1d12 9-20 x4. Wear Strongarm Bracers and you could technically dual-wield them.

Also, with an 18-20 crit weapon and Improved Critical, that would jump to 3-20 crit range.

[Snowbluff]

I know, I know, but you must take a set number of feats to optimize THF, and these feats do not scale well for TWF. While feats that improve critical could indeed be used for THF, they would scale just as well for TWF :smallsmile: In theory, at least. I was already going to include a critical-optimized THF as part of the control group. :smallbiggrin:

Well, the main problem with that is... they don't. The biggest bonus to melee damage output is PA. It doesn't scale as well for TWF unless you are a Revenant Badass Blade. :smalltongue:

I guess if you brought enough crit proc based equipment, TWf would have a slight edge before you consider he is 4 Atk and 3 feats behind the THF.

I suggest the DoD THF use a Impact Minotaur Greathorn Hammer. It should get silly.

[GreenETC]

I suggest the DoD THF use a Impact Minotaur Greathorn Hammer. It should get silly.

Actually, if people play by the rule that a crit always hits, then going for Imp. Critical into a Kukri Crit-fishing build with the Blood in the Water stance would lead to some absolutely maddening games.

[Snowbluff]

Actually, if people play by the rule that a crit always hits, then going for Imp. Critical into a Kukri Crit-fishing build with the Blood in the Water stance would lead to some absolutely maddening games.I don't know anyone who uses that rule.

The hammer's better multiplier would give a bigger advantage than a single Kukri. If you are THF, you don't use light weapons.

... This excercise is pointless. Why don't we just get some aptitude weapons and then Lightning maces + Roundabout Kick. That might be the sort of reason why they reduced crit ranges.

[Larkas]

Well, the main problem with that is... they don't. The biggest bonus to melee damage output is PA. It doesn't scale as well for TWF unless you are a Revenant Badass Blade. :smalltongue:

I guess if you brought enough crit proc based equipment, TWf would have a slight edge before you consider he is 4 Atk and 3 feats behind the THF.

I suggest the DoD THF use a Impact Minotaur Greathorn Hammer. It should get silly.

That's what hypothesis are for, silly! :smalltongue: I want to see how things would work out, is all.


Actually, if people play by the rule that a crit always hits, then going for Imp. Critical into a Kukri Crit-fishing build with the Blood in the Water stance would lead to some absolutely maddening games.

Hmmm, auto-hit is only for natural 20s, regardless of your critical range, unfortunately.


I don't know anyone who uses that rule.

The hammer's better multiplier would give a bigger advantage than a single Kukri. If you are THF, you don't use light weapons.

... This excercise is pointless. Why don't we just get some aptitude weapons and then Lightning maces + Roundabout Kick. That might be the sort of reason why they reduced crit ranges.

When you want to test a hypothesis, you don't want to prove that said hypothesis is correct, you just want see if it says something about the world. Even if this slight change in the rules amounts to nothing, the test will say that, even with an increased number of critting attacks, the TWF archetype is still "useless". It is not "pointless", since even a negative answer will be saying something. The message might not be of interest to you, but it is to me. I believe that you might be on the right track, that changing the rule will, in fact, amount to nothing. But I want to know for sure.

On a tangent: Seriously, guys. The negativity in these boards these past few days is getting on everyone's head. If you don't have anything useful to say, just don't say anything! :smallconfused: And please, don't take this as an attack or anything, Snowbluff, I say this in the most respectful way possible. But if you have nothing else to add, just don't shoot this down, ok?

Oh, and aptitude kukris > lightning maces, for obvious reasons. But this is not relevant yet.

[Larkas]

Technically, the Disciple of Dispater specifically calls out Keen, but then Impact was made, which is Keen for bludgeoning. That means you could technically stack those even without Imp. Crit. The hard part of critting is that you have to confirm, but in places where they don't apply the confirm rule, this might get a bit silly.

A Minotaur Greathammer with Impact and Dispater's boost would be 1d12 9-20 x4. Wear Strongarm Bracers and you could technically dual-wield them.

Also, with an 18-20 crit weapon and Improved Critical, that would jump to 3-20 crit range.

Sorry, only saw this one now! Impact, huh? Is that in the SRD? I'll be sure to look it up!

[Phaederkiel]

Well, the main problem with that is... they don't. The biggest bonus to melee damage output is PA.


no, for a critfisher Blood in the water is obviously much better IF the combat has more than one target.

If it has not, the charging multipliers / charging with a lance Multipliers are at least as good as pa (unfortunately both stack).

Craven and sneak attack die are quite good in combat, too, if the conditions are met.

So i think it is overstated to say that PA is the best. It is one of the easiest.

[Snowbluff]

no, for a critfisher Blood in the water is obviously much better IF the combat has more than one target.Or get something that'll let you keep the combo up between fights.


If it has not, the charging multipliers / charging with a lance Multipliers are at least as good as pa (unfortunately both stack).


40 is a pretty large number. I said PA is the biggest because it multiplies.

SA and Craven are nice, but the conditions are tricky and immunity is easy. I'd say Telling Blow would be a good compliment, but that's another feat.

[Phaederkiel]

40 is a pretty large number. I said PA is the biggest because it multiplies.


yes, and at lvl 1, 2 damage more are also nice, but do not compare to 1d8x3 on a charge.
PA gets better as the game progresses, but we did not specify a point in play.

and since crit fishing goes up a lot too in the later levels, i'd say blood in the water is also quite gigantic. Bloodstorm masters with blood in the water can rack up numbers higher than 40 (althoug you'd need a LOT of enemies for that)

[SowZ]

There is also laminated and serrated steel. Though those are third party and crazy OP. One increases threat range, one increases damage multiplier.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d)

[Larkas]

Immunity against critical strikes isn't so problematic after the Gravestrike, Golemstrike, and Vinestrike spells (Spell Compendium).

And thanks for the pointers, guys! Keep them coming!

[TuggyNE]

Sorry, only saw this one now! Impact, huh? Is that in the SRD? I'll be sure to look it up!

It isn't, sadly; I believe it's in MIC/SpC (Impact weapon special and weapon of impact respectively). I only know the names from DDO :P

[Zetapup]

The mythic exemplar from complete champion can, once per day, increase its threat range by 1. It's interesting to note that this specifically stacks with keen, etc.


Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d)

It's worth noting here that psychic weapon master doesn't stack with disciple of dispater due to PWM requiring a crystal weapon and DoD requiring an iron weapon. There's some material type which apparently mimics properties of both (crysteel? Not sure of the name), but that's a bit of a gray area.

[Ageir]

In my group keen and imp crit stack. And weapin masters imprived multiplyer is permanant. I personally enjoy it, it makes mundanes a lot more dangerous. Its definatly not for everybody. and we definatly don't allow the laminated weapons or anything.

[Snowbluff]

@Larkas More feats and spell costs. No good. What do you don't about immunities that do not come from type?




It's worth noting here that psychic weapon master doesn't stack with disciple of dispater due to PWM requiring a crystal weapon and DoD requiring an iron weapon. There's some material type which apparently mimics properties of both (crysteel? Not sure of the name), but that's a bit of a gray area.

Perhaps your weapon would be made out of iron arranged as a crystal? How does DnD define 'crystal'?

[Morcleon]

Perhaps your weapon would be made out of iron arranged as a crystal? How does DnD define 'crystal'?

Pretty specifically... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/specialMaterials.htm)

Of course, if you can convince your DM to allow you to get a ferrite sword, then more power to you. :smallbiggrin:

[Axier]

It's worth noting here that psychic weapon master doesn't stack with disciple of dispater due to PWM requiring a crystal weapon and DoD requiring an iron weapon. There's some material type which apparently mimics properties of both (crysteel? Not sure of the name), but that's a bit of a gray area.

Riedran Crysteel
Its somewhere in Eberron...

And yea, it isn't really a gray area, it is specifically an alloy of crystal and iron, and definatley has something to do with psionics.

[Snowbluff]

Pretty specifically... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/specialMaterials.htm)

Of course, if you can convince your DM to allow you to get a ferrite sword, then more power to you. :smallbiggrin:

... "Mundane Crystal" could mean anything, lol. I would call that the opposite of specific. :smalltongue:

I was thinking Ferrite, but I was hoping to find a better Iron containing crystal. Not that it matters. Magic weapons can be plenty tough.

[Story]

Immunity against critical strikes isn't so problematic after the Gravestrike, Golemstrike, and Vinestrike spells (Spell Compendium).


Actually, those specifically don't bypass immunity to critical hits. They only let you sneak attack through the racial immunity. And there are tons of other ways to get immunity that aren't covered by spells anyway.

[VGLordR2]

Mythic Exemplar (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070504a&page=3) 2 with the Sunyartra Paragon Path increases the threat range of a weapon by one. It specifically stacks with other sources of crit improvement, too.

[JaronK]

Note the current crit fisher builds could become massively overpowered with this change. A Barbarian 7 (Lion Totem and Cityscape Variant)/Warblade X/Fighter Y/Disciple of Dispater 8 with Blood in the Water, Roundabout Kick, Lightning Mace, Improved Critical (Light Mace), and a pair of Keen Aptitude Kukris has a crit range with full stacking of 8-20 (IIRC) and should easily hit infinite attacks for infinite damage, in essence.

JaronK

[Morcleon]

... "Mundane Crystal" could mean anything, lol. I would call that the opposite of specific. :smalltongue:

I was thinking Ferrite, but I was hoping to find a better Iron containing crystal. Not that it matters. Magic weapons can be plenty tough.

Well, the word "crystal" seems pretty specific to me, especially considering the relative level of specificity in D&D in general... :smalltongue:


Actually, those specifically don't bypass immunity to critical hits. They only let you sneak attack through the racial immunity. And there are tons of other ways to get immunity that aren't covered by spells anyway.

Get a greater truedeath and greater demolition crystal. These let you sneak attack and crit undead and constructs, respectively. Nothing for plants, though...

[Story]

Nothing for plants, though...

Or Warshapers. But I suppose you don't fight them very often unless you're an NPC.

[Vaz]

Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d)

Whut on urf with those Feat prerequisites? They're horrible!

Why the Psychic Warrior didn't have the Ancestral Weapon ability in the first place, I just don't know.

[andromax]

OP: There's the 1st level spell Critical Strike, in complete adventurer.. adds Improved Crit and Power Critical

[Vaz]

Well, the word "crystal" seems pretty specific to me, especially considering the relative level of specificity in D&D in general... :smalltongue:



Get a greater truedeath and greater demolition crystal. These let you sneak attack and crit undead and constructs, respectively. Nothing for plants, though...

Plants? Flaming Enchantment? Not strictly precision dakage, but it deals d6*1.5 additional, more with flaming burst.

[Larkas]

Thanks for all the replies guys!

@Zetapup, VGLordR2 - Great call on the Mythic Exemplar. That will certainly be useful.

@Story - D'oh, that's what I get for not double-checking stuff listed on the Lists of Stuff. :smallyuk:

@JaronK - Hmmmm, Lightning Maces could be problematic... But since I would be threading on homebrew territory, might as well ban the feat altogether, or limit it somehow.

@Morcleon - Oh, great, totally forgot about the MIC's crystals! Great find!

@andromax - Ooooh, that's a nice one too!

@Vaz - Hmmmm, Flaming Enchantment might be a nice one, but it doesn't really relate to critical strikes... Good to have as a backup though, I guess.

Furthermore, I also found the Deathstrike Bracers in the MIC. That should cover all the bases!

And does anyone know if there's any 17-20 short of a stump knife? Losing a hand for an improved critical range is going too far into MinMaxing territory. :smallbiggrin:

[Morcleon]

Plants? Flaming Enchantment? Not strictly precision dakage, but it deals d6*1.5 additional, more with flaming burst.

Yeah, but then it's pretty much useless against anything with even resistance 5...:smallannoyed:

[JaronK]

@JaronK - Hmmmm, Lightning Maces could be problematic... But since I would be threading on homebrew territory, might as well ban the feat altogether, or limit it somehow.


Better to simply make a house rule (which was probably RAI anyway) that the Aptitude weapon enchantment only applies to feats that could legally chose that particular weapon anyway (like the Warblade's Weapon Aptitude ability). Thus, Weapon Focus could be switched, but Lightning Mace and Roundabout Kick can't. This means you can never stack the two feats, and even with stacking crit modifiers (Cityscape Barbarian 7 + Disciple of Dispater 8 + Impact + Improved Critical) you still only get to a 16-20 crit range... potent with those feats, but not broken.

JaronK

[Agent 451]

Isn't there something called Overwhelming Critical in the Epic Level Handbook?

Edit: There is! There is also the Maiming weapon enhancement in the Miniatures Handbook which gives a random multiplier to your crit multiplier that is keyed to the weapon's original multiplier.

[ksbsnowowl]

Deepwood Sniper (Masters of the Wild, 3.0) put keen on any arrow you fired, and increased your bow crit multiplier from x3 to x4, and later to x5.

I know Impact was first in Magic of Faerun, though it may have been reprinted elsewhere.