Monstrous PCs and the tier system

[SillySymphonies]

The conventional wisdom is that monstrous PCs can’t meaningfully contribute in an optimized party. But most every PC compares unfavourably to a tier 1 class.

Let’s for example consider a vrock PC. Sure, it has only 10d8 HD at ECL 18, but account for its racial bonus to Con, and this becomes 10d8+70 = 8+9x4½+70 = 118 hp. Not accounting for assigning a high ability score to Con*, a ‘regular’ (i.e. sans LA) barbarian would have 12+17x6½ = 122 hp by ECL 18.
Our vrock PC has base saves of +7, but accounting for its racial adjustments to ability scores, these become Fort +14, Ref +9 and Will +10 – a ‘regular’ monk would have base saves of +11 by ECL 18. Base Atk: +10, but accounting for racial Str, that’s +16 (better than a cleric, almost as good as a fighter). Skill points (again, only accounting for racial bonuses to Int): 13x(8+Int) = 130 skill points (a bard has 126 skill points by ECL 18).
Account for its large size, fly speed, +11 natural armor, electricity immunity, poison immunity, damage reduction and at will (!) mirror image, telekinesis and greater teleport and this should make a contributing ECL 18 PC in a tier 3 party (remember that our vrock PC gets the same wealth by level as a regular lvl 18 PC).

tl;dr: a monstrous PC could meaningfully contibute in a tier 3 party

My question: what actual tier would such a vrock PC be? What about (reasonably optimized) mind flayer, rakshasa etcetera PCs?

The only real problem I see, is HD-dependent effects.

*Not relevant this analysis: our vrock PC could just as likely assign a high roll to Con before racial adjustments.

Edit: nevermind, my thesis was wrong. :smallredface: For a thorough explanation as to why, refer to Karnith's reply (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14597736&postcount=6).

[Greenish]

*Not important to this analysis: our vrock PC could just as likely assign a high roll to Con before racial adjustments.Really? I'd have thought Con modifier, being multiplied with your hit dice, would affect the relative hit point totals.

[SillySymphonies]

Really? I'd have thought Con modifier, being multiplied with your hit dice, would affect the relative hit point totals.
Assigning a higher ability score to Con, would result in the hit point total going up by the same ammount for both a regular PC and the vrock PC - no difference there.

[demigodus]

Assigning a higher ability score to Con, would result in the hit point total going up by the same ammount for both a regular PC and the vrock PC - no difference there.

The rock gets +10 hp for each bonus con mod. Others get a +18
Same wit skill points

[SillySymphonies]

The rock gets +10 hp for each bonus con mod. Others get a +18
Same wit skill points
D'oh! Thanks for pointing this out - it's back to the abacus, then!

[Karnith]

The only real problem I see, is HD-dependent effects..
That is a huge problem that monstrous PCs have, and I don't think you quite realize how big it really is. Take, for example, the HP situation; while it's true that a Barbarian and a Vrock would have comparable HP if both had assigned a 10 to their constitution scores, a Barbarian has more HD to apply the bonus HP from his constitution score from. If they both assigned a score of 12 to Constitution during character creation, the Vrock would have 128 hp (well, 128.5, but who's counting?), while the Barbarian would have 140. Assuming that they both assigned a 14 to Constitution, the Vrock would have 138 hp, and the Barbarian would have 160 hp. With a score of 16, the Vrock has 148, and the Barbarian has 176. And so on. Because the 18th-level Barbarian has more HD, Constitution increases cause his HP to go up by more than the Vrock's.

EDIT: Swordsage'd on the HP stuff.

While a Vrock may have a considerable number of skill points thanks to its outsider HD granting an obscene number of skill points, a Vrock is going to be worse at skills than most PCs, because he can only put 13 ranks into any given skill, compared to an 18th level PC who can put 21 ranks into any given skill. He may be able to use more skills than many PCs, but he'll be significantly worse at them than his party mates.

In combat, a Vrock has a fair number of natural attacks, which sort of makes up for not having good iteratives, but even with his attack bonus adjusted for the racial Strength bonus, he's still lagging behind a fighter, he has fewer feats (10 HD, remember?), and his natural weapons kind of suck in damage output.

Also, just as a reminder, WBL is irrelevant to discussing the tier placement of a class.

Most monstrous races are fairly low-tier, especially those without inborn spellcasting. As to the Vrock, Teleport is sweet, but self-only, and ditto with fly, it can sort of be a skill monkey, but is pretty terrible at it, it's really fragile in combat, the summoning is completely unreliable, the stunning screech's save DC is going to be pretty low, and it doesn't have a lot of other abilities that will help it contribute. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd place it in tier 5 just because of all the different skills you can use, but by the time you can play as one they're verging on tier 6 because of just how outclassed they are. EDIT: I forgot, monsters only get the skills that they're listed having ranks in as class skills, so skill-monkeying is out. Tier 6 all the way for our poor Vrock.

Mind Flayers fall into a similar boat, in that they really just aren't survivable at all in a 15th-level party, though their psionic abilities are nice (if underwhelming at 15th level). Rakshasas at least get access to 3rd level sorcerer casting, but don't really do much else at an ECL of 14.

[SillySymphonies]

That is a huge problem that monstrous PCs have, and I don't think you quite realize how big it really is.
I didn't, but thanks to your explanation, I do now. Thanks. :smallsmile:


a Vrock is going to be worse at skills than most PCs, because he can only put 13 ranks into any given skill, compared to an 18th level PC who can put 21 ranks into any given skill.
Wouldn't that at least partially be offset by the vrock's racial bonuses to ability scores? Compared to a human (21/21/21/21/21/21 ranks in Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha skills), the vrock would have 19/15/20/15/16/16 when accounting for racial bonuses to ability scores.


Also, just as a reminder, WBL is irrelevant to discussing the tier placement of a class.
I am aware of that: I just mentioned this as a reminder to why WBL isn't relevant when comparing monstrous PCs to regular PCs.

[Karnith]

I didn't, but thanks to your explanation, I do now. Thanks. :smallsmile:
No problem. Monstrous PCs are complicated, which is why I've basically given up ever playing as one. (Well, that and they tend to be terrible.)

Wouldn't that at least partially be offset by the vrock's racial bonuses to ability scores? Compared to a human (21/21/21/21/21/21 ranks in Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha skills), the vrock would have 19/15/20/15/16/16 when accounting for racial bonuses to ability scores.It partially makes up for it, but you'd still just be better off in a real skill monkey class if you want to skill monkey; the Vrock doesn't really need the Strength- or Constitution-dependent skills (and those are the abilities that it gets the biggest bonuses in), and it can only compete with 18th level characters on Listen and Spot checks, because of its +8 racial bonus. Also, the Vrock's skill list kind of sucks: Concentration, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (any one), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft (what?), and Spot. You can scout, sure, but that's basically it; you'll be terrible in social situations (not even accounting for being a giant bird-demon), you can't handle locks or traps, and you won't be very knowledgeable about things.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Clumping monstrous PCs into one group at all is weird, as you're combining junk like giants with the outsiders with cleric casting, both of which match or outdo straight cleric spells at low levels, on top of an outsider chassis, before lagging back as their HD advancements slow.

[Karnith]

Clumping monstrous PCs into one group at all is weird, as you're combining junk like giants with the outsiders with cleric casting, both of which match or outdo straight cleric spells at low levels, on top of an outsider chassis, before lagging back as their HD advancements slow.
First, I don't think anyone was grouping all monster PCs together; SillySymphonies' point was that some monsters could make workable PCs, and we were in fact trying to find a tier rating for individual monsters.

Second, as a general rule, monsters don't make good PCs because they tend to have pretty big level adjustments. If you use the Savage Species monster classes (which I assume is what you're referencing?), a lot of monster classes are good at very low levels but get outclassed quickly, because all of their special abilities are really just not worth losing hit dice and everything that goes along with them, especially for those with casting. The creatures with appropriate spellcasting are, additionally, the exception and not the rule when it comes to monster classes. The ones who are combat-focused appear to have been balanced around the capabilities of a similarly-leveled fighter (the example that they provided for deciding an Ogre's level adjustment was to find the level at which players would be indifferent between a single-classed fighter and an ogre, for example), and as such tend to be pretty awful.

Also, as I was reading its description, the Vrock struck me as an actually pretty good choice for a monstrous PC compared to a lot of other creatures, and that's pretty sad.

[Lans]

It compares pretty well to the monk
Hit points84+18Xhp vs 115+10X hp requires a 18 con mod on the monk, and he likely has a 22 con after a +6 item leaving it with 17 more hp.

Saves vroc fort +14, Ref +9 and Will +10 vs the monks base saves of +11

AC Monk has 13+wisdom Vrock has 22

Miss chance Monk has 50% at best with ACFs, Vrock has mirror image

Damage +13/+13/+13/+8/+3 at 2d8 vs 15/15/13/13/13 at 2d6+6/2d6+6/d8+3/d6+3/d6+3 + d8 spores

Feats Monk has 6 more feats, Vrock qualifies for mindsight

Movement Monk has DD 1/day and +60 to move Vrock has TWE at will and a fly speed of 50

Speech Telepathy vs Tongue of moon and sun

Then some immunities that I don't want to go over

[Karnith]

It compares pretty well to the monk
A glowing recommendation, indeed!

Like I said, a Vrock could, could be a low tier 5, but it's hideously underpowered compared to most other classes.

[DrDeth]

Well, if you get a good racial template, like undead, for a small investment in LA, it can certainly be worth it.

But other than for fun, higher ECL monsters are well at the bottom of the totem pole.

I did enjoy my 3.0 Rakshasha , immunity to lower level spells is lots of fun.

[Oscredwin]

Just to formally say it, I expect almost all monsters with an ECL above a certain point (4? 6?) are tier 5 or lower.

[Lans]

Ettergaunts are tier 1


A glowing recommendation, indeed!

Like I said, a Vrock could, could be a low tier 5, but it's hideously underpowered compared to most other classes.

Do you mean low as in almost tier 6 or low as in almost tier 5? It beat the monk fairly handily on several categories, and was about equal in the others. Its probably mid tier 5. Maybe 4 if its defenses and ability to grab Mindsight are accounted for.

[Rubik]

The conventional wisdom is that monstrous PCs can’t meaningfully contribute in an optimized party. But most every PC compares unfavourably to a tier 1 class.

Let’s for example consider a vrock PC. Sure, it has only 10d8 HD at ECL 18, but account for its racial bonus to Con, and this becomes 10d8+70 = 8+9x4½+70 = 118 hp. Not accounting for assigning a high ability score to Con*, a ‘regular’ (i.e. sans LA) barbarian would have 12+17x6½ = 122 hp by ECL 18.
Our vrock PC has base saves of +7, but accounting for its racial adjustments to ability scores, these become Fort +14, Ref +9 and Will +10 – a ‘regular’ monk would have base saves of +11 by ECL 18. Base Atk: +10, but accounting for racial Str, that’s +16 (better than a cleric, almost as good as a fighter). Skill points (again, only accounting for racial bonuses to Int): 13x(8+Int) = 130 skill points (a bard has 126 skill points by ECL 18).
Account for its large size, fly speed, +11 natural armor, electricity immunity, poison immunity, damage reduction and at will (!) mirror image, telekinesis and greater teleport and this should make a contributing ECL 18 PC in a tier 3 party (remember that our vrock PC gets the same wealth by level as a regular lvl 18 PC).

tl;dr: a monstrous PC could meaningfully contibute in a tier 3 party

My question: what actual tier would such a vrock PC be? What about (reasonably optimized) mind flayer, rakshasa etcetera PCs?

The only real problem I see, is HD-dependent effects.

*Not relevant this analysis: our vrock PC could just as likely assign a high roll to Con before racial adjustments.

Edit: nevermind, my thesis was wrong. :smallredface: For a thorough explanation as to why, refer to Karnith's reply (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14597736&postcount=6).I had to hit the 'quote' button just to read. Please don't use silver-on-white. It gives people eyestrain.

[Karnith]

Ethergaunts are tier 1Indeed, but the number of monsters that have spellcasting comparable to their ECL is vanishingly small. I am not contesting that some monsters are competitive with character classes at similar ECLs, but very few are, and those that are tend to have small level adjustments. The problem is usually that monsters' ECLs are almost always far higher than their CR.

Do you mean low as in almost tier 6 or low as in almost tier 5? It beat the monk fairly handily on several categories, and was about equal in the others. Its probably mid tier 5. Maybe 4 if its defenses and ability to grab Mindsight are accounted for.
I meant "almost in tier 6" as in the low end of tier 5, where the monk also resides. Being better than a monk does not make it particularly good at anything; even compared to other tier 5s, it's bad at combat and skill-monkeying. It can be a serviceable scout, but that's about it. Using JaronK's terms, a Vrock is "Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well," and "[i]n some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the rest of the party is weak in that situation and the encounter matches their strengths."

[Lans]

Indeed, but the number of monsters that have spellcasting comparable to their ECL is vanishingly small. I am not contesting that some monsters are competitive with character classes at similar ECLs, but very few are, and those that are tend to have small level adjustments. The problem is usually that monsters' ECLs are almost always far higher than their CR.

I meant "almost in tier 6" as in the low end of tier 5, where the monk also resides. Being better than a monk does not make it particularly good at anything; even compared to other tier 5s, it's bad at combat and skill-monkeying. It can be a serviceable scout, but that's about it. Using JaronK's terms, a Vrock is "Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well," and "[i]n some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the rest of the party is weak in that situation and the encounter matches their strengths."

I don't think its actually bad at combat, it gets 5 natural attacks, a decent strength boost, has heroism, great defenses, is large and can fly. Compare its attacks to soulknife, monk, paladin.
So it has a good breadth of skills, great defenses, an alright attack routine, can fly, and telepathy.

With mind-sight its an awesome scout. If it gets pounce it becomes an alright damage dealer, or it it takes combat reflexes+standstill. It is by no means shocktrooper barbarian, but its defenses are the type that it can survive against the shocktrooper barbarian with an AC bonus that can push himself off the RNG, plus misschances at will

[Runestar]

It basically depends on how much your party optimises. The more they do, the less attractive monster PCs will look in comparison, because you get way less room to customise them. If you have people playing combinations like sorc/dragon disciple, a vrock will fit right in and not seem too weak.

Outsiders are generally not worth it (with the exception of perhaps the good-aligned angels - trumpet archon, astral deva, ghaele), not sure why wotc assigned such a debilitating ECL to them anyways.

For a mindflayer, I would compare it to a warlock (since both involve you spamming those same few SLAs over and over again). It does have some nice tricks (at-will mind blast, albeit at a crappy DC, planeshift to positive energy plane for at-will healing, charm monster for infinite army), but still strikes me as being too fragile and situation-specific to be a worthy ECL15 PC.

Raksasha - however I look at it, can't touch a 14th lv sorc, however poorly built.

[JeminiZero]

Outsiders are generally not worth it (with the exception of perhaps the good-aligned angels - trumpet archon, astral deva, ghaele)

And Neraphs, and Humanoid races with the Otherworldy feat to change their type to Outsider.

[awa]

I think your underestimating how useful greater teleport at will is when you say hes only slightly better then a monk.

the vrock makes a decent scout (flight, spot, listen, and can report back to the party with telepathy) mind sight makes it even better.

and hes not useless in combat.




at bare minimum hes solid tier 5 "In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed" (long distance travel)

[Lans]

You could give the vrock a guisarme, the imp trip, combat reflexes and mindsight feats and have a decent tripper who can still scout




For a mindflayer, I would compare it to a warlock (since both involve you spamming those same few SLAs over and over again). It does have some nice tricks (at-will mind blast, albeit at a crappy DC, planeshift to positive energy plane for at-will healing, charm monster for infinite army), but still strikes me as being too fragile and situation-specific to be a worthy ECL15 PC.

I was thinking a mid tier 5, but their defenses and lack of hp leave a lot to be desired. Low tier 5, they can badly attack 1 save with mind affecting attacks, and thats only if they don't get cold cocked on the 1st round of combat


Raksasha - however I look at it, can't touch a 14th lv sorc, however poorly built.

Compare it to a 14th level adept or magewright. It may only have third level spells but with the charisma boost they hit like fifth level, and they have a good defense suit. I would say tier 4-3 depending on level.

[TheifofZ]

At about +4-5 LA monsters lose out to PCs, simply due to HD advancement/loss and they can't remove the LA either.
Before that, the adjustments aren't cripplingly unbalanced, and the higher power monsters can bring to the table can make up for the lost HD. As well, the LA can be "payed off" with experience levels.

[Runestar]

Compare it to a 14th level adept or magewright. It may only have third level spells but with the charisma boost they hit like fifth level, and they have a good defense suit. I would say tier 4-3 depending on level.

Who in their right mind is going to play an adept as a PC? :smallconfused:

[Novawurmson]

Overall, I'd recommend building your own race using the Pathfinder system (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/arg-creating-new-races) or another similar system if you want to play an unusual race. The problems with racial HD are manifold.

[AuraTwilight]

Who in their right mind is going to play an adept as a PC? :smallconfused:

Dude, Adepts have an incredibly awesome spell list. I'd play one if for whatever reason I didn't want to play a Wizard or Sorcerer, such as if it were a low-power game.

[JaronK]

I'd say most monster levels are probably T4-5, but the level adjust could easily drop someone a tier (or more). There are exceptions (Black Ethergaunt is an obvious one). But since you have to "multiclass" the monster levels with class levels as you level up, it does get a bit weird.

JaronK

[Lans]

How much do defensive abilities play into the tier system?

The vrock is going to hit about as hard as a monk, but has much better defenses. Which I feel is going to be the difference between low tier 4 and high 5.

[lunar2]

it isn't always the LA that's a problem, though. look at trumpet archon (already mentioned, but bears repeating). compared to a cleric, sure, he sucks. but compared to, for example, a barbarian? he looks much better. i'd call a trumpet archon a solid T3.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Who in their right mind is going to play an adept as a PC? :smallconfused:

Nobody. That's why I play commoners.

It's like being a fighter, except you're not expected to go on the front lines. That way I can spend more time on being like MacGyver.

[Lans]

Looking at the hound archron class progression, and its randomly stronger than just being a hound archron. By 2 stat boosts and 5 feats, as it now has 11 levels, and the class progression gave it 3 bonus feats for some reason or another.

Edit Isn't unspecified bonus feats actually a powerful class feature? I forget if you needed prereqs or not. Hound archrons might actually be alright.

[Answerer]

Edit Isn't unspecified bonus feats actually a powerful class feature? I forget if you needed prereqs or not. Hound archrons might actually be alright.
Unless it explicitly says otherwise, you need to meet the prerequisites for the bonus feats granted by a class.

Monstrous bonus feats (though marked with a B in the Monster Manual) are gained ignoring prerequisites (unless the text says otherwise as with Human).

[Phelix-Mu]

Monstrous PCs are pretty much always done for flavor experiments. LA is an explicit nerf, and racial HD aren't far behind. Across the board, the judgement must be bad for using monstrous PCs from an optimization perspective. Coolness++, functionality --.

Now, case by case, I think some monsters may lend themselves very well to certain builds. Sirine bard and similar synergies (nereid battledancer?) will probably fare well enough to outweigh their ECL handicap, but I totally agree that the farther up we go, particularly with LA, the functionality of certain monsters plummits. Monster classes really don't improve this much, rather they make such races an option in campaigns that start at lower levels. Higher up the difference will once again become apparent.

And also props to the analysis about how they matched a bunch of monsters off against fighters to see how to peg the ECL. Not close to approaching a rigorous way to determine ECL, this is more along the lines of arbitrary. Particularly in light of how 3.x evolution has shown fighters to be wanting. Part of the problem revolves around many LA being determined under the theory that the monster might be a cohort option, a somewhat more limited analysis than making the race playable as a character.

That said, if a DM is open-minded enough to make the vrock barbarian an option in a campaign, then you can probably expect the DM won't curbstomp said character into irrelevance if the "normal" members of the party out-op the vrock (not hard as we just demonstrated). Even with ECL shenanigans, bending PrC entry reqs or allowing flavor stuff to have tangible benefits (this vrock is more chaotic than evil, so at some point a feat to purchase some kind of upgrade or synergy to racial/class DR might be nice), and such, the DM can always help to keep a good character concept relevant.

Anyway, in a tier discussion, all of these niceties are irrelevant. Bottom line, class levels>racial HD>whatever you traded for LA. Exceptions excepted. Higher tier class levels are better than lower tier ones, and any class is probably going to be more flexible than racial HD, since you can always ditch a class with an understanding DM; rebuilding racial stuff is far more plot-dependent.

[Lans]

The guideline that I think works for brutes is if monsters base attack+strength mod is =>its ECL and its hit points from its constitution modifier is =>6* its ECL then its tier 4. Like frost, fire and hill giants.

For casters its caster level+1/2 its appropriate modifier has to equal its ecl to be at least tier 4.

For creatures with spell like abilities it needs to have a base DC of 10+1/2 ecl before accounting for character modifiers to be tier 4 if its a save or lose. If its a good battle field control spell with no save then its just automatically at least tier 4.

If a creature is severely lacking in level based defenses(ie succubus) -1/2 to the tier.

Thoughts

[SillySymphonies]

Looking at the hound archron class progression, and its randomly stronger than just being a hound archron. By 2 stat boosts and 5 feats, as it now has 11 levels, and the class progression gave it 3 bonus feats for some reason or another.

Edit Isn't unspecified bonus feats actually a powerful class feature? I forget if you needed prereqs or not. Hound archrons might actually be alright.
Those feats are its HD-dependent feats (the ones every creature gets at 1,3,6,9,12,15,18 HD). The only added value of the monster class is being able to play a hound archon before ECL 12. Cf. Savage Species chapter 3.

[Lans]

Those feats are its HD-dependent feats (the ones every creature gets at 1,3,6,9,12,15,18 HD). The only added value of the monster class is being able to play a hound archon before ECL 12. Cf. Savage Species chapter 3.

No, the one in the planar handbook is worded differently, its the only one in the book that is worded like it. You could argue that character level=HD, and the hound archron would only get a feats when it hit 1/3/6, but the phrasing of

A hound archon also gains bonus feats at 1st, 3rd, and 9th level. leaves it hard to argue against it not getting bonus feats

[lunar2]

really, for most monster. if you want to play a monster with an LA, go with this houserule.

"A level adjustment is a D1 RHD that grants a 1/2 bab progression, all poor saves, 1+Int skill points per level, with no class skills".

there. every LA is an RHD (and therefore increases the DCs of Ex and Su racial abilities appropriately). each LA grants 1+con (minimum 1) HP and 1+int (minimum 1) skill points. every second LA grants 1 bab, and every 3rd LA grants 1 to each save.

and you get feats and ability score increases on the same level as everyone else, which is nice. LA still sucks, but not quite so badly (and your PC vrock is actually more powerful than other vrocks).

[Lans]

Does that lead to any overshadowing?

Vrock would have 46 more hp than a barbarians base hp
Higher saves, AC, defensive options.

His attack would be 4 behind an orc barbarian, or 2 behind a non orc before heroism is factored in.
He would deal about d6+1 damage more per hit with a two hander
Loses out on 1 iterative, but has 3 natural attacks to make up for it
Doesn't get access to pounce
His stunning screech would have a DC of 26+additional con, other spell likes
8 Skills/level
So tier 3ish?