Problem with a Flesh Golem

[fl_swat]

Playing 3.5 and our DM sends us a questions via email between sessions for bonus XP and this week I can not figure out what I am missing. We can use any resource book or internet to answer it. Here are the questions posed.

You are attacking a Flesh Golem with your primary weapons, single handed. It is the third round of combat and the Golem has an AC of 18, 8 Touch and 18 Flatfooted.

What do you need to roll on the d20 to hit the Golem?

If you roll a natural 20 what is your damage?

Explain you answers.

My character is lvl 6 with 3 as rogue/2 fighter/1 master thrower (double toss trick). The DM has a rule that for every round after the first we get +1 for atk/dmg/saves if we are acting "heroic" aka not running or hiding. For this question we have +2 for the third round.

After answering the question I got this mass email from him to everyone:

All have given pretty good answers, but all have overlooked one important bit of information as it relates to damage.

This was my answer for the damage portion:

First off a Flesh Golem is immune to Critical hits/sneak attacks because it has the construct traits even though it has "flesh" in the title. This kills most of my damage.
a) As a ranged attack I would roll 1d3+1 for two daggers (Double Toss), but each would max at 4 damage with two extra for the round for a total of 6 each as two separate damage rolls. Because the flesh golem has a DR of 5/adamantite and I do not have adamantite weapons I would do 1 damage on each dagger at max. That would be 2 damage for single handed attack only.
b) As a melee attack I would roll 1d3-2 for two daggers (Double Toss),but each would max at 1 damage with two extra for the round for a total of 3 each as two separate damage rolls. Because the flesh golem has a DR of 5/adamantite and I do not have adamantite weapons I would do no damage.

I added this part after getting that email:

1. Are you saying magical weapons can get through his DR even though Flesh Golem description doesn't list this? Either way I don't have magical weapons.

He still says that everyone missed it except one person who has updated their info with the missing info.

Does anyone have a clue what is missing here? I have till 10pm to submit my final answer.

Thanks for any takers!

[Chilingsworth]

Special Qualities:

Construct traits, damage reduction 5/adamantine, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to magic, low-light vision

That should cover it.

Found here: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#fleshGolem)


Damage Reduction

A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.

The entry indicates the amount of damage ignored (usually 5 to 15 points) and the type of weapon that negates the ability.

Some monsters are vulnerable to piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage.

Some monsters are vulnerable to certain materials, such as alchemical silver, adamantine, or cold iron. Attacks from weapons that are not made of the correct material have their damage reduced, even if the weapon has an enhancement bonus.

Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Some monsters are vulnerable to chaotic-, evil-, good-, or lawful-aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature.

When a damage reduction entry has a dash (-) after the slash, no weapon negates the damage reduction.

A few creatures are harmed by more than one kind of weapon. A weapon of either type overcomes this damage reduction.

A few other creatures require combinations of different types of attacks to overcome their damage reduction. A weapon must be both types to overcome this damage reduction. A weapon that is only one type is still subject to damage reduction.

Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).

Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury type poison, a monk’s stunning, and injury type disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.

Attacks that deal no damage because of the target’s damage reduction do not disrupt spells.

If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.


Found here: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction)

[fl_swat]

I asked the other players and one of them said that he did figure it out. There has to be something else.

He won't tell me because the bonus XP for answering questions is split between those who get it right. The DM wants this to be done w/o each others help for some competition.

[Chilingsworth]

Reread your post, saw you accounted for the adamantine DR, my bad.

Hmm, unless the answer is something along the lines of "I immdeiately realize I can't fight this thing effectively, I flee and therefore do no damage." Or, "This thing can survive anything I can throw at it. It kills me, I do no damage." I'm stumped.

Wait, other than your weapons, what gear do you have access to?

Actually, what's your build: Why are you able to avoid your strength penalty to damage with thrown weapons?

[fl_swat]

In the past we came against 2-3 golems and each time I used a rope to tangle it up and let the fighters pull to knock it over. I also said I can't do anything and go play cards. lol

He said there is something related between all PCs that we all forgot initially. Including our ranger and fighters who can do serious damage to it.

Double Toss says that you do not add str modifiers to it. The DM said because it does not specify positive only then I can ignore the str modifier all together on this attack only. He leans on the players side for this sorta stuff... mostly so he can throw nasty crap at us. lol

[erikun]

Does your DM automatically deal maximum damage on a natural 20? Does your DM say weapons deal a minimum of 1 damage, even despite damage reduction? Because both are variant rules, but would give different answers than what most people play.

Do your weapons have any special qualities? Do you have any magical equipment which may apply? Because you may be dealing more (or less) damage depending on what additional effects apply to the attacks.

[Qc Storm]

Perhaps you are expected to stay away from the golem and pepper it with weak attacks until it goes berserk.

Sure that could take a while, but just climb a wall and start shooting. Golems are pretty dumb.

[fl_swat]

Does your DM automatically deal maximum damage on a natural 20? Does your DM say weapons deal a minimum of 1 damage, even despite damage reduction? Because both are variant rules, but would give different answers than what most people play.

Do your weapons have any special qualities? Do you have any magical equipment which may apply? Because you may be dealing more (or less) damage depending on what additional effects apply to the attacks.

If we confirm the crit then its max damage. With my ranged attack that would be guaranteed vs this target. But he is immune to crits so that part doesn't matter.

Weapons deal a minimum base of 1 damage, but against something with a DR it does not mean a minimum against that. Just in the case of a dagger (1d3) and a str modifier of -3 then he says you still do 1 point of damage against a normal creature.

I only have masterwork weapons. My magical items are a ring of protection +1, brooch of natural armor +1, +2 leather armor, and a headband that gives me darkvision.


The DM said that the thing that was missing was the exact same across the board for all players, so that makes me think it is not class/gear specific.

[fl_swat]

Perhaps you are expected to stay away from the golem and pepper it with weak attacks until it goes berserk.

Sure that could take a while, but just climb a wall and start shooting. Golems are pretty dumb.

His questions are more for ensuring you know the ins and outs of your class and wants simple answers. Every time I try throwing strategy in there he laughs and tells me that he does not want that for the questions. Otherwise I would sneak past it and look for treasure on the other side of him. lol

[erikun]

The DM said that the thing that was missing was the exact same across the board for all players, so that makes me think it is not class/gear specific.
Never underestimate the ability of other people to be incorrect. :smalltongue:

Looking over your information, it sounds like we have the answer already. For Double Toss ranged, you would deal two damage if both dice came up 4, one damage if only one die came up 4, and no damage if neither damage die came up 4. For melee, you won't be doing any damage.

I can't think of what else it could be, unless your +1 bonus per round is some kind of sneak attack/vulnerability bonus that doesn't apply to golems. Your character would only have +5 BAB at most, and so wouldn't be attacking twice per round. I'm not that familiar with Master Thrower but I don't think it does anything regarding damage.

As I said, it sounds like your DM is fishing for some campaign-specific rule. I'm not seeing anything RAW that would change the above answer.

[Edit] Does your DM think that damage reduction is per round rather than per attack, by chance?

[fl_swat]

I am going to kill my DM!!!!! Apparently he lover looked "First off a Flesh Golem is immune to Critical hits/sneak attacks because it has the construct traits even though it has "flesh" in the title. This kills most of my damage. " in my original answer!!!!!

I got it. Thanks for all who tried to help out. Great community here!

[Chilingsworth]

I am going to kill my DM!!!!! Apparently he lover looked "First off a Flesh Golem is immune to Critical hits/sneak attacks because it has the construct traits even though it has "flesh" in the title. This kills most of my damage. " in my original answer!!!!!

I got it. Thanks for all who tried to help out. Great community here!

I'd get another dm first, wouldn't want to be without a game. :smalltongue:

Otherwise, good luck!


(yes, I'm joking. If you actually do that, don't go blaming me!)

[fl_swat]

He is a great DM, just can't read large walls of text apparently. lol

In his defense I sent him how I would atk and dmg for ranged, melee, assisting another, and using a rope to trip the golem. I think he just wanted it for my normal ranged attack. lol

Perhaps I should stop giving to much info? :/

[ArcturusV]

Or he should be clearer on exactly what he's asking for.

[Yogibear41]

What race is your character? are you using small daggers? normal sized daggers are 1d4 not 1d3 so I assume your using small but just checking.

[Yogibear41]

nvm just saw the part about he over looked crits...

[herrhauptmann]

Best thing to do in those fights?
Trip/entangle somehow. (Already done with that rope thing you mentioned)
Flanking bonuses for the guys that can hurt it.
Aid another actions.

Lure it into a pit or off a cliff. You've just defeated an encounter without actually dealing damage. Should get full experience.

[Zombimode]

Double Toss says that you do not add str modifiers to it. The DM said because it does not specify positive only then I can ignore the str modifier all together on this attack only. He leans on the players side for this sorta stuff... mostly so he can throw nasty crap at us. lol

Because I'm nitpicky...
You're thinking of Palm Throw. Doubletoss is the one where you apply your full Str bonus to both attacks. Palm Throw lets you make two attacks for every one you would normally get, but your Str bonus does not apply to the damage.
Now here's the point: it mentions your Str bonus, not your Str modifier. Those are not the same thing.
When you are denied your Dex bonus to AC, your armor class does not improve if you have a negative Dex mod. The terminology of the system does make this distinction.

[TuggyNE]

If it hadn't been the crit immunity, I would have suggested your DM was borrowing magic weapon DR bypass rules from Pathfinder; a +4 or better weapon can bypass /adamantine. Of course, after looking that up, it seems highly improbable that you'd have +4 weapons all around. :smalltongue:

[Starbuck_II]

I know you are unlikely to afford it, but a Sacrab of Golemban denies DR from stopping your damage, cost 2, 500 gp

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#scarabGolembane

"A scarab enables its possessor to combat golems with weapons, unarmed attacks, or natural weapons as if those golems had no damage reduction. "