Shadow Conjuration

[Gotterdammerung]

Is there any errata that prevents Shadow conjuration from being stronger than normal conjurations if you get your quasi-real percentages over 100%?

Example: right now a Shadowcraft mage can use shadow illusion to cast an earth spell silent image heightened to 9th lvl to copy a 10th lvl or lower conjuration summoning spell. Because of the powerful shadow magic ability it will be 130% as strong as the real spell. If the creature is recognized as an illusion his damage and AC become 130% as strong as the real creature.

Is there any errata that fixes this exploit.

If not, what are some other sources that boost quasi real percentages, besides the obvious shadow craft mage?

[Yuki Akuma]

There is no errata to fix this.

Shadowcrafter from Drow of the Underdark increases the reality of your Shadow spells, and I'm pretty sure there's a feat somewhere that does it.

[Psyren]

Google "killer gnome build" and you should find most of the SCM techniques.

As far as errata, I don't know of any that stops >100% illusions from being a thing.

[AuraTwilight]

I always considered this a feature rather than an exploit. Making illusions more real than reality is like my favorite thing ever.

[JaronK]

Exactly, it's brilliant. With normal Shadow Conjurations, it's your own mind making you believe something hurts more than it really does. With SCM powered ones, you're like "wait, that's just an illusion OH GOD THAT'S SO MUCH SHADOW MAGIC OF DEATH!"

There's no errata, nor is there any reason to think it is cheesy or anything.

Also, the way to make this stronger is to use the Shadowcrafter PrC as well as Earth Spell (from the same book as SCM) to boost spell levels.

JaronK

[Gotterdammerung]

Exactly, it's brilliant. With normal Shadow Conjurations, it's your own mind making you believe something hurts more than it really does. With SCM powered ones, you're like "wait, that's just an illusion OH GOD THAT'S SO MUCH SHADOW MAGIC OF DEATH!"

There's no errata, nor is there any reason to think it is cheesy or anything.

Also, the way to make this stronger is to use the Shadowcrafter PrC as well as Earth Spell (from the same book as SCM) to boost spell levels.

JaronK

Earth spell is in the OP example. And I found shadowcrafter shortly after posting. I also found some weird homebrew metamagic feats that increased it. I'm currently reading the suggested "killer gnome" stuff, but so far haven't found anything new to me.

Thanks for all the responses.

P.S. Considering the wording of the shadow conjuration and evocation I think it is an exploit. But I don't have any problems with this kind of exploit because it is flavorful. I was asking about the existence of errata's just to see if anything had been changed about it, in case I ever wanted to play something like this.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's a feat in Dragon 325 that only specialist Illusionists can take called Enhanced Shadow Reality that makes your Shadow spells 20% stronger.

Don't forget about Residual Magic in Complete Mage! If the last spell you cast last round was a Silent Image that's Heightened to X level, the first Silent Image you cast this round is Heightened for free, even if you cast this one Quickened!

[Jack_Simth]

Earth spell is in the OP example. And I found shadowcrafter shortly after posting. I also found some weird homebrew metamagic feats that increased it. I'm currently reading the suggested "killer gnome" stuff, but so far haven't found anything new to me.

Thanks for all the responses.

P.S. Considering the wording of the shadow conjuration and evocation I think it is an exploit. But I don't have any problems with this kind of exploit because it is flavorful. I was asking about the existence of errata's just to see if anything had been changed about it, in case I ever wanted to play something like this.
Heh. It's when you add things like Residual Metamagic and the interpretation that Arcane Disciple(Luck) on your character makes Miracle a Sor/Wiz spell that makes it particularly exploitative.

[Gotterdammerung]

Heh. It's when you add things like Residual Metamagic and the interpretation that Arcane Disciple(Luck) on your character makes Miracle a Sor/Wiz spell that makes it particularly exploitative.

By exploit I am not saying it doesn't work. Of course it works. You just don't normally judge whether or not something is an "exploit" by looking at the RAW. You judge exploits by gauging the fluff and context of whats written. And given the fluff and context I don't think the designers of shadow spells ever considered they would be able to break 100%.

But like I said, I was just checking for an errata so I didn't get blindsided by one if/when I decided to play this type of character.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Your class spell list and the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list are two completely different things, and always will be. Shadow illusions only emulate spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, regardless of what class you have levels in and what spells you've managed to add to your class spell list. If it were any different, then just one Wizard with Arcane Disciple: Luck would be enough to give everyone access to Shadow Miracles, regardless of their own class or their own class spell list.

[Jack_Simth]

By exploit I am not saying it doesn't work. Of course it works. You just don't normally judge whether or not something is an "exploit" by looking at the RAW. You judge exploits by gauging the fluff and context of whats written. And given the fluff and context I don't think the designers of shadow spells ever considered they would be able to break 100%.

Consider, then: A 130% real copy of something from the Summon Monster IX list... is still only around CR 13 at the high end. A 130% real copy of, say, Meteor Swarm from a 9th level spell slot is about the damage than you'd likely get out of an Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball at the 20th level this build is usually measured at (other than the touch attack to avoid the save that Meteor Swarm grants, anyway; 24d6*1.3 vs. 20d6*1.5 is mostly a wash... and you only get that much damage out of Meteor Swarm if they make the first save). Quite frankly, the guy who buys a Greater Metamagic Rod of Maximize Spell or two can just cast a Maximized Meteor Swarm and have a nice day.

Considering the number of classes and feats you have, of necessity, dumped into doing this build, it's not really all that overpowered without things like residual metamagic (so that after the first casting of your massively heightened Silent Image, you're just using a regular silent image to the exact same effect, letting you spam 9th level effects every round of combat all day long).

Is it against the flavour? Eh, maybe. It's arguable either direction. But it's not really all that much of an exploit compared to some things.


But like I said, I was just checking for an errata so I didn't get blindsided by one if/when I decided to play this type of character.
Cool.

[JaronK]

I have to agree that Miracle probably can't be cast because it's not on the Sorcerer/Wizard list, just your particular list. But everything else works great.

Besides, who needs Miracle when you've got Shadow Genesis and Shadow True Creation?

JaronK

[Gotterdammerung]

I have to agree that Miracle probably can't be cast because it's not on the Sorcerer/Wizard list, just your particular list. But everything else works great.

Besides, who needs Miracle when you've got Shadow Genesis and Shadow True Creation?

JaronK

It does work. Arcane Disciple adds the spells to your class list. If your class is wizard, for example, and you take arcane disciple luck domain, then miracle is added to your wizard spells list.

The shadowcraft mage's ability works of any wizard or sorcerer spell. Miracle has become a wizard spell for you.

You might ask, "well how come I don't see tons of arcane miracle scrolls? they should just add it to the sorc/wiz list if your gonna play it that way!"

And the answer is, powerful magic is a closely guarded secret by all who possess it.



Consider, then: A 130% real copy of something from the Summon Monster IX list... is still only around CR 13 at the high end. A 130% real copy of, say, Meteor Swarm from a 9th level spell slot is about the damage than you'd likely get out of an Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball at the 20th level this build is usually measured at (other than the touch attack to avoid the save that Meteor Swarm grants, anyway; 24d6*1.3 vs. 20d6*1.5 is mostly a wash... and you only get that much damage out of Meteor Swarm if they make the first save). Quite frankly, the guy who buys a Greater Metamagic Rod of Maximize Spell or two can just cast a Maximized Meteor Swarm and have a nice day.

Considering the number of classes and feats you have, of necessity, dumped into doing this build, it's not really all that overpowered without things like residual metamagic (so that after the first casting of your massively heightened Silent Image, you're just using a regular silent image to the exact same effect, letting you spam 9th level effects every round of combat all day long).

Is it against the flavour? Eh, maybe. It's arguable either direction. But it's not really all that much of an exploit compared to some things.

You're working under the assumption that something has to be strong to be an exploit. Maybe we have different definitions of exploit. For me an exploit is anything that circumvents the RAI but is supported by RAW. It doesn't have to be strong.

Also your example is erroneous because the shadow mage can maximize and empower his spell as well using the umbral collar trick and the same metamagic rod.

[TuggyNE]

You're working under the assumption that something has to be strong to be an exploit. Maybe we have different definitions of exploit. For me an exploit is anything that circumvents the RAI but is supported by RAW. It doesn't have to be strong.

Yeah, it's possible to have weak or even underpowered cheese, as well as exploits that do no more than bring a rather gimped character up to par. Cheesiness has very little to do with strength.

And SCM exploits are quite cheesy, whether or not they are too powerful.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It does work. Arcane Disciple adds the spells to your class list. If your class is wizard, for example, and you take arcane disciple luck domain, then miracle is added to your wizard spells list.

The shadowcraft mage's ability works of any wizard or sorcerer spell. Miracle has become a wizard spell for you.

You might ask, "well how come I don't see tons of arcane miracle scrolls? they should just add it to the sorc/wiz list if your gonna play it that way!"

And the answer is, powerful magic is a closely guarded secret by all who possess it.

Where do Shadow Illusions say that they draw from your Sorcerer/Wizard spell list? It's just as likely that it draws from that other guy's Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.

The Sorcerer/Wizard spell list is unchanging.
A Sorcerer or Wizard casts spells drawn from that list, but there are effects which can modify that list for purposes of what spells they can cast, but that does not modify that list with regards to any other effect.
Shadow illusions draw spells from that list, and there are no effects which can modify that list for purposes of what those spells can emulate. Other effects which change that list's contents for other purposes have absolutely no effect on what spells anyone's shadow illusions can emulate.

[Gotterdammerung]

Where do Shadow Illusions say that they draw from your Sorcerer/Wizard spell list?



The part where it says "any sorcerer or wizard spell".


The Sorcerer/Wizard spell list is unchanging.
A Sorcerer or Wizard casts spells drawn from that list, but there are effects which can modify that list for purposes of what spells they can cast, but that does not modify that list with regards to any other effect.
Shadow illusions draw spells from that list, and there are no effects which can modify that list for purposes of what those spells can emulate. Other effects which change that list's contents for other purposes have absolutely no effect on what spells anyone's shadow illusions can emulate.

Ok except, shadow illusion doesn't say anything about lists. It says sorcerer or wizard spells. Not spells from the sorc/wiz list. If a wizard adds a spell to his class list then it becomes a wizard spell, end of story. It can't be anything else.

You are basically trying to say that the spells I added to my wizard spell list are not wizard spells. And without any text to back the claim. If the spells on my wizard spell list aren't wizard spells then I think we have entered some kind of paradox.

[Psyren]

Ok except, shadow illusion doesn't say anything about lists. It says sorcerer or wizard spells. Not spells from the sorc/wiz list. If a wizard adds a spell to his class list then it becomes a wizard spell, end of story. It can't be anything else.

:smallsigh::smallsigh::smallsigh:

Ugh.

[Lord_Gareth]

:smallsigh::smallsigh::smallsigh:

Ugh.

My sentiments precisely.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The part where it says "any sorcerer or wizard spell".

Ok except, shadow illusion doesn't say anything about lists. It says sorcerer or wizard spells. Not spells from the sorc/wiz list. If a wizard adds a spell to his class list then it becomes a wizard spell, end of story. It can't be anything else.

You are basically trying to say that the spells I added to my wizard spell list are not wizard spells. And without any text to back the claim. If the spells on my wizard spell list aren't wizard spells then I think we have entered some kind of paradox.

Miracle
Evocation
Level: Clr 9, Luck 9

Miracle itself is not a wizard spell, demonstrated right there. That's all Shadow Evocation cares about, whether or not the spell itself is a sorcerer/wizard spell.

You can add it to your wizard spell list. You can learn and cast it as a wizard spell. That does not make that spell inherently a sorcerer/wizard spell, it just makes it one for your character. Shadow Evocation doesn't care about your spells, only the spells themselves. It doesn't say you get to emulate your sorcerer/wizard spells.

[HunterOfJello]

I would ordinarily argue that nothing can be more than 100% 'Real'. However, the Astral Plane is already highly reminiscent of Plato's Forms, so creating shadow versions of things that are more real than real might just work when d&d magic is involved.

My 2 RAI cents.



~

RAW, I'm 99% sure there isn't anything restricting it.

[Lord_Gareth]

Here, let me try to explain this as simply as humanly possible:

In this context, a spell's "type", such as Wizard Spell, Sun Domain Spell, or Initiate of Cyric Spell, is found only in its description. Some features allow you to add spells from outside of your class list to your list of castable spells, just like some features (say, the Hidden Talent feat) let you manifest psionic powers not on your list, or initiate maneuvers not on your list. However, this does not alter your class listing. It just allows you, personally, to cast the spell, manifest the power, bind the vestige, initiate the maneuver, etc.

Why is this important? Well, let us say we have a cleric with the War domain, which gets several Wizard spells. Now, because he has the War domain that Cleric can cast those spells and even scribe them as scrolls. Your argument is that since he can cast them, they're Cleric spells - but that's untrue. If he writes a scroll of Power Word: Kill, it is indeed a divine scroll but other clerics without some method of casting the Power Word will be wholly incapable of using it without a UMD check or the Magic domain.

Same thing with Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation. Just because your Domain Wizard has access to a spell that's outside of the Wizard list doesn't make that spell a Wizard spell. You cast it like a wizard casts it, and it is an Arcane spell no matter what you do to it (put it in a scroll or staff, for example), but it's not a Wizard spell.

[Gotterdammerung]

However, this does not alter your class listing.

Except, Arcane Disciple specifically DOES alter the class listing. And specifics trump general. In this game, when one thing specifically changes another thing, the change takes precedent over the general listing. So saying that the combo doesn't work because the book lists Miracle as a divine cleric and luck domain spell, is an erroneous argument.

I understand your argument fully. You don't need to use simple small words to explain yourself.


Here, let me try to explain this as simply as humanly possible

pshhh... rude.

I am not saying I don't get what he is trying to say.

I am saying he is wrong, and I am listing reasons and rules.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Add the chosen domain’s spells to your class list of arcane spells.
I don't see this feat causing a given spell to become a sorcerer/wizard spell. It could be added to your wizard class spell list, but that doesn't make it a sorcerer/wizard spell. You could multiclass into sorcerer and take the feat again, but in this case it is separately on your sorcerer class spell list and on your wizard class spell list, and is still not a sorcerer/wizard spell. This feat does not do what you think it does, and shadow illusions specifically only emulate sorcerer/wizard spells.

[Jack_Simth]

It does work. Arcane Disciple adds the spells to your class list. If your class is wizard, for example, and you take arcane disciple luck domain, then miracle is added to your wizard spells list.
The fact that it is debated, and so many people argue either way, is why I called it an interpretation. What was actually intended by the designers is questionable - I doubt they really even gave consideration to what happens when someone has their personal Sor/Wiz list expanded, honestly.

However, when it comes down to it, it's the interpretation of the DM at the table that matters. Hence why I called that aspect an interpretation that makes the killer gnome exploitative.



You're working under the assumption that something has to be strong to be an exploit. Maybe we have different definitions of exploit. For me an exploit is anything that circumvents the RAI but is supported by RAW. It doesn't have to be strong.
Problem: Everyone has a different definition of what RAI actually is. The developers generally aren't available to ask, so we're left with guessing. I've seen no strong evidence that the developers had a problem with greater than 100% real shadow effects. I've seen no strong evidence that the developers intended the possibility of greater than 100% real shadow effects.


Also your example is erroneous because the shadow mage can maximize and empower his spell as well using the umbral collar trick and the same metamagic rod.
He can. Of course, he's also put much more in the way of his resources into that particular trick. The other wizard is casting one spell. We do not know what the rest of his build is like. Did he get more levels in Incantatrix to get free metamagic? Did he get some levels in Mage of the Arcane Order to have a slightly improved method of having the right spell easily available? Did he maybe work his way into Dweomerkeeper to get rid of XP and material components occasionally? Perhaps he has a race that gives him an Int bonus.

Meanwhile, we've got a pretty good idea of what the build for the >100% real illusion caster is. There's a couple of specific feats he has to have taken. You just pointed out yet another item he's going to purchase out of his allotment (assuming high-level character creation and/or a DM who stops most money-making schemes), and the implied extra spell he's going to need to cast periodically. Oh yes, and he's almost always going to be a specialist wizard, or maybe a focused specialist wizard.

The example isn't erroneous. It's just not intended in exactly the way you seem to have taken it.

[Gotterdammerung]

I don't see this feat causing a given spell to become a sorcerer/wizard spell. It could be added to your wizard class spell list, but that doesn't make it a sorcerer/wizard spell. You could multiclass into sorcerer and take the feat again, but in this case it is separately on your sorcerer class spell list and on your wizard class spell list, and is still not a sorcerer/wizard spell. This feat does not do what you think it does, and shadow illusions specifically only emulate sorcerer/wizard spells.

Again, shadow illusions doesnt say anything about "sorcerer/wizard spell list" it uses the words "any sorcerer OR wizard spell."

Spells on a wizards class spell list are wizard spells. That is what the phrase "wizard spell" means.

[Lord_Gareth]

Again, shadow illusions doesnt say anything about "sorcerer/wizard spell list" it uses the words "any sorcerer OR wizard spell."

Spells on a wizards class spell list are wizard spells. That is what the phrase "wizard spell" means.

We've pretty conclusively demonstrated that it is not what that phrase means, but whatever, run it at your table however you like despite any wretched rules headaches your interpretation spawns.

[JaronK]

Again, shadow illusions doesnt say anything about "sorcerer/wizard spell list" it uses the words "any sorcerer OR wizard spell."

Spells on a wizards class spell list are wizard spells. That is what the phrase "wizard spell" means.

Actually, that's not the case. Consider the Archivist. They can only take Cleric spells as free spells on level up... which means only spells on the main Cleric list. You can't claim that since that one Cleric/Hexer has a particular Wizard/Sorc spell on his Cleric list that the spell is a Cleric spell and thus he can get it for free on level up.

So, there is a difference between Cleric spells and spells on a certain Cleric's spell list, as well as Wizard spells and spells on a certain Wizard's list.

Remember, the line is "You tap energy from the Plane of Shadow to cast a quasi-real, illusory version of a sorcerer or wizard evocation spell of 4th level or lower." Not a version of a spell that a particular Wizard (even you) happens to have on his list.

At least, that's how I see it.

JaronK

[TuggyNE]

I would ordinarily argue that nothing can be more than 100% 'Real'. However, the Astral Plane is already highly reminiscent of Plato's Forms, so creating shadow versions of things that are more real than real might just work when d&d magic is involved.

That's not especially useful, since the Plane of Shadow has nothing in particular to do with the Astral Plane. Guess which one Illusion (shadow) spells draw from: three guesses, and the first two don't count.

[JaronK]

Well, if "Ideal reality" can be more real than real, couldn't "Shadow reality" be even scarier and more dangerous than real reality?

JaronK

[TuggyNE]

Well, if "Ideal reality" can be more real than real, couldn't "Shadow reality" be even scarier and more dangerous than real reality?

... I suppose I have no answer for that. Carry on, citizens.

[Gotterdammerung]

Actually, that's not the case. Consider the Archivist. They can only take Cleric spells as free spells on level up... which means only spells on the main Cleric list. You can't claim that since that one Cleric/Hexer has a particular Wizard/Sorc spell on his Cleric list that the spell is a Cleric spell and thus he can get it for free on level up.

So, there is a difference between Cleric spells and spells on a certain Cleric's spell list, as well as Wizard spells and spells on a certain Wizard's list.

There is a big difference between "the cleric spell list" and "any cleric spell". The archivist picks from "the cleric spell list". "The cleric spell list" is a set universal list. "Any cleric spell" is any spell cast from a clerics class list. A class list can change from various different methods. "The cleric spell list" can not change, as it describes the universal list that all clerics use. This might seem like a minor distinction, but minor distinctions are very important in interpreting the RAW.



Remember, the line is "You tap energy from the Plane of Shadow to cast a quasi-real, illusory version of a sorcerer or wizard evocation spell of 4th level or lower." Not a version of a spell that a particular Wizard (even you) happens to have on his list.

At least, that's how I see it.

JaronK

The bolded part of your quote is extemporaneous. It isn't in the spell description. It is a RAI interpretation. It says "a sorcerer or wizard spell" and shadow illusion ability says "any sorcerer or wizard spell". They do not say "any spell off of the sorcerer/wizard spell list"

Also, even if shadow evocation did have prohibitive wording, the discussion is on the parameters of the shadow illusion ability.



We've pretty conclusively demonstrated that it is not what that phrase means,
There are not varying degrees of conclusive. Something either is conclusive or it isn't.
And you haven't demonstrated conclusively. A spell on a wizards class list is a wizard spell. The ability works on any wizard spell. You can speculate that you think the ability was meant to be used on wizard spells from the universal sorcerer/wizard spell list, but that is RAI not RAW.


but whatever, run it at your table however you like despite any wretched rules headaches your interpretation spawns.

Whether or not I would allow it to work in my campaigns has absolutely no bearing on whether or not it works by the RAW. It works as written. Any GM can change that fact.

[JaronK]

There are not varying degrees of conclusive. Something either is conclusive or it isn't.
And you haven't demonstrated conclusively. A spell on a wizards class list is a wizard spell. The ability works on any wizard spell. You can speculate that you think the ability was meant to be used on wizard spells from the universal sorcerer/wizard spell list, but that is RAI not RAW.

In that case you don't need Arcane Disciple, now do you? If any Wizard ever has had Arcane Disciple, then miracle is a Wizard spell by this logic. Likewise, this now follows for every spell that any Wizard has ever gotten on their list. This means all Bard spells (some Wizard must have been a Wizard/PrC Bard), all Domain spells (from all the possible Arcane Disciples) and so on.

That's obviously going somewhere silly.

JaronK

[Gotterdammerung]

In that case you don't need Arcane Disciple, now do you? If any Wizard ever has had Arcane Disciple, then miracle is a Wizard spell by this logic. Likewise, this now follows for every spell that any Wizard has ever gotten on their list. This means all Bard spells (some Wizard must have been a Wizard/PrC Bard), all Domain spells (from all the possible Arcane Disciples) and so on.

That's obviously going somewhere silly.

JaronK

RAW is often silly. It doesn't make it any less RAW.

[JaronK]

If things are unclear, the interpretation that makes sense at all is the most likely to be true. So, the question is, what is a Wizard or Sorcerer spell? You're going by the interpretation "any spell that any Wizard or Sorcerer has ever had available to them through their casting ability." I'm going by the definition "any spell found on the Wizard or Sorcerer spell list." Which one is more supported by RAW? Well, there's no real support particularly for your position over mine, really, but the results of yours are extremely silly. Specifically, it counts virtually every spell in existence as a Wizard spell, and you don't need Arcane Disciple to get them all. Does that seem reasonable?

JaronK

[Gotterdammerung]

If things are unclear, the interpretation that makes sense at all is the most likely to be true. So, the question is, what is a Wizard or Sorcerer spell? You're going by the interpretation "any spell that any Wizard or Sorcerer has ever had available to them through their casting ability." I'm going by the definition "any spell found on the Wizard or Sorcerer spell list." Which one is more supported by RAW? Well, there's no real support particularly for your position over mine, really, but the results of yours are extremely silly. Specifically, it counts virtually every spell in existence as a Wizard spell, and you don't need Arcane Disciple to get them all. Does that seem reasonable?

JaronK

The rules are not unclear though. And again reasonable has no bearing on RAW. Pun pun is not reasonable, the Wish is not reasonable, most builds that use raw to destroy the game are not reasonable.

The only way to destroy the combo is to say that a spell on a wizards class list is not a wizard spell. Well a spell on a wizards class list cast by a wizard with wizard spell slots can only be defined as a wizard spell. To deny that is unreasonable.

[JaronK]

The rules are not unclear though. And again reasonable has no bearing on RAW.

Okay, so show me where in RAW it shows that your interpretation ("A Wizard spell is any spell that any Wizard can cast via his Wizard casting") is supported whereas mine ("A Wizard spell is any spell on the Wizard class list") is not.

Here's my reference that the Wizard/Sorcerer list is, in fact, the Wizard or Sorcerer spells: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm

Notice the title. And note that the Player's Handbook uses the same title. So, the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list is what "Wizard/Sorcerer spells" are. Furthermore, Dragon Magic page 13 lets a Favored Soul gain a single "Sorcerer spell" rather than a "Cleric spell" as a spell to learn, showing that "spell from the Sorcerer spell list" and "Sorcerer spell" are synonymous.

So, I have RAW support for my position. Where is your RAW support? What you're looking for is any reference to the idea that adding a spell to your particular list makes it count as a "Wizard or Sorcerer spell."

JaronK

[Acanous]

Know what I find funny? Pathfinder took the Sorceror/Wizard bit out of Shades (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shades).
Functions as shadow conjuration, except it mimics conjuration spells of 8th level or lower.

Lollocaust.

Anyhow, I play it that if you get something added to your spell list, it's counted as being on your spell list for anything else you cast.

So Miracle would work, if you had Luck disciple going on.

[Gotterdammerung]

Okay, so show me where in RAW it shows that your interpretation ("A Wizard spell is any spell that any Wizard can cast via his Wizard casting") is supported whereas mine ("A Wizard spell is any spell on the Wizard class list") is not.

Here's my reference that the Wizard/Sorcerer list is, in fact, the Wizard or Sorcerer spells: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm

Notice the title. And note that the Player's Handbook uses the same title. So, the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list is what "Wizard/Sorcerer spells" are. Furthermore, Dragon Magic page 13 lets a Favored Soul gain a single "Sorcerer spell" rather than a "Cleric spell" as a spell to learn, showing that "spell from the Sorcerer spell list" and "Sorcerer spell" are synonymous.

So, I have RAW support for my position. Where is your RAW support? What you're looking for is any reference to the idea that adding a spell to your particular list makes it count as a "Wizard or Sorcerer spell."

JaronK

O.k. here is one example of RAW supporting my claims (there are others but its late and I don't feel like scouring to refind them + this one should suffice as it is pretty clear cut.)

Page 178 of the players handbook Under the header "Wizard spells and borrowed spellbooks"


Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks

A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured.

This section is specifically talking about how "wizard spells" interact with borrowed spellbooks. In that context it explains that a wizard can prepare a spell from borrowed spell book if it is known to her and recorded in her own spellbook. This tells us that spells known to a wizard and recorded in her spellbook are "Wizard spells".

[JaronK]

This section is specifically talking about how "wizard spells" interact with borrowed spellbooks. In that context it explains that a wizard can prepare a spell from borrowed spell book if it is known to her and recorded in her own spellbook. This tells us that spells known to a wizard and recorded in her spellbook are "Wizard spells".

I'm seeing nothing there that says this makes a spell that's not on the Wizard list that gets into his book a "Wizard spell." Where do you see this? Your quote certainly doesn't claim this. In the section you quote, the phrase "Wizard spells" never even appears except in the title of the specific section you're quoting, which is talking about using the spellbook of another Wizard to prepare your own known spells. It has nothing to do with spells from other lists and whether those count as "Wizard spells.", nor is there any reference to spells coming from other lists in any way. The only other thing vaguely relevant is that the earlier page (177) has a section called "Preparing Wizard Spells" but that makes no mention of spells that aren't on the standard list, nor is it talking about anything other than the process of how a Wizard prepares spells (it's not saying that a given spell is a "Wizard Spell" nor in any way defining what a "Wizard Spell" is. It's talking about the whole hour of study and 8 hours of rest thing).

So... your quote and your evidence has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Why bring it up? Shouldn't you be quoting areas of the rules that actually use the relevant phrase (Wizard or Sorcerer spells)?

By comparison, I can cite every single spell list ever printed in any book, which always refers to the list as "Wizard/Sorcerer spells." This includes books that do have methods of grabbing spells from other lists, which never state that the spell becomes a "Wizard or Sorcerer spell" nor any variation of that phrase. For example, that Favored Soul substitution never says the spell becomes a "Favored Sorcerer spell" when added to your list. And the Dragon abilities that let them cast Cleric spells with their Sorcerer casting specifically say these count as being "Cleric Spells" that are arcane... despite the fact that they're casting them with their Sorcerer casting. So that's a perfect example of a spell being added to a list that still counts as being from its original list and not actually counting now as a "Sorcerer spell."

JaronK

[Gotterdammerung]

I'm seeing nothing there that says this makes a spell that's not on the Wizard list that gets into his book a "Wizard spell." Where do you see this? Your quote certainly doesn't claim this. In the section you quote, the phrase "Wizard spells" never even appears except in the title of the specific section you're quoting, which is talking about using the spellbook of another Wizard to prepare your own known spells. It has nothing to do with spells from other lists and whether those count as "Wizard spells.", nor is there any reference to spells coming from other lists in any way. The only other thing vaguely relevant is that the earlier page (177) has a section called "Preparing Wizard Spells" but that makes no mention of spells that aren't on the standard list, nor is it talking about anything other than the process of how a Wizard prepares spells (it's not saying that a given spell is a "Wizard Spell" nor in any way defining what a "Wizard Spell" is. It's talking about the whole hour of study and 8 hours of rest thing).

So... your quote and your evidence has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Why bring it up? Shouldn't you be quoting areas of the rules that actually use the relevant phrase (Wizard or Sorcerer spells)?

By comparison, I can cite every single spell list ever printed in any book, which always refers to the list as "Wizard/Sorcerer spells." This includes books that do have methods of grabbing spells from other lists, which never state that the spell becomes a "Wizard or Sorcerer spell" nor any variation of that phrase. For example, that Favored Soul substitution never says the spell becomes a "Favored Sorcerer spell" when added to your list. And the Dragon abilities that let them cast Cleric spells with their Sorcerer casting specifically say these count as being "Cleric Spells" that are arcane... despite the fact that they're casting them with their Sorcerer casting. So that's a perfect example of a spell being added to a list that still counts as being from its original list and not actually counting now as a "Sorcerer spell."

JaronK

I like how you ignore the validity of my example because the context is provided by the Header and not the text. But then you use a Header for your example. And on the topic of your example "The sorcerer/wizard spells" you are assuming a specific definition of "the". "The" has multiple definitions and not all of them support your interpretation. There is also no text to clarify the intent of the word "the" in your example.

But since you don't like that example let us move on. Since the opposing argument is predicated almost entirely on the class listings in the "Level" entry of each spell, lets look at what the level entry actually means.

The rules compendium pg 123 has this to say on the subject


LEVEL
Spell level is a number between 0 and 9 that defines the
spell’s relative power. This number is preceded by the
name of the class whose members can cast the spell or an
abbreviation of that class.

So you can see, that entry reflects the ability of the class member to cast the spell. If the parameters of your classes casting ability changes then this entry will reflect that change. Much in the same way that a monster would change his size and type entries if an effect directly changed them.




Also, earlier you said,
Well, there's no real support particularly for your position over mine, really, but the results of yours are extremely silly.

But I would like to point out that the results of your interpretation are equally silly and exploitable.

Take archivist for instance. My position clarifies that although an archivist can learn spells off of other class lists, the spells in his prayer book are "Archivist Spells". Makes a whole lot of sense.

Your interpretation says that the spells learned from other class lists are not archivist spells but are defined by whichever class list they were robbed from.
(Even though the quote from the rules compendium shows this is not the case, lets explore it anyway.)

Well this doesn't make much sense and is highly exploitable. I can now use my archivist spells in conjunction with abilities that only effect a certain classes spell without actually having any levels of that class. I can further break this trick by going geomancer to mix these parameters and apply them to all my spells. All swift spells without any levels of paladin is an exploit and it is very silly.

[Piggy Knowles]

There are no such things as archivist spells. They don't have a spell list. They have the ability to cast any divine spell in their spell book, and gain access to cleric spell automatically, but nowhere in all of Heroes of Horror or subsequent books is there an archivist spell list.

[Lord_Gareth]

Well this doesn't make much sense and is highly exploitable. I can now use my archivist spells in conjunction with abilities that only effect a certain classes spell without actually having any levels of that class. I can further break this trick by going geomancer to mix these parameters and apply them to all my spells. All swift spells without any levels of paladin is an exploit and it is very silly.

Do regale us with how precisely you think that works.

Go on.

We'll wait.

[Psyren]

Well this doesn't make much sense and is highly exploitable. I can now use my archivist spells in conjunction with abilities that only effect a certain classes spell without actually having any levels of that class. I can further break this trick by going geomancer to mix these parameters and apply them to all my spells. All swift spells without any levels of paladin is an exploit and it is very silly.

Battle Blessing cannot be applied to non-paladin spells. Your readings of the rules are very questionable at best; at worst, they are based entirely in fantasy.

[Gotterdammerung]

Battle Blessing cannot be applied to non-paladin spells. Your readings of the rules are very questionable at best; at worst, they are based entirely in fantasy.

The entire conversation has been about what defines a spell. I am using his interpretation of the rules for this example. He says a spell is defined by what list it comes off of. therefore by his interpretation an archivist can learn and cast paladin spells and battle blessing can be applied to those spells. Then with the application of the Geomancer prestige class, the parameters of those paladin spells can be applied to all his spells. This is the reality of his interpretation. It has nothing to do with my readings of the rules.

And on the topic of my credentials for rules interpretation, aside from a lifetime of D&D experience, I have presided over several official dungeon and dragons conventions as a head rules DM. This is not to say I am infallible, or that my interpretations carry extra weight, however you accused me of having a questionable grasp of the rules. Therefore, it is necessary to bring up my credentials.


Do regale us with how precisely you think that works.

Go on.

We'll wait.

Your snide and sarcastic comments are unnecessary, unproductive and unwarranted.

Your contribution of Argumentum ad hominem arguments are not appreciated.

Debate my points, ignore me or get out. Stop trolling me.


There are no such things as archivist spells. They don't have a spell list. They have the ability to cast any divine spell in their spell book, and gain access to cleric spell automatically, but nowhere in all of Heroes of Horror or subsequent books is there an archivist spell list.

The entire point I just made is that a class spell is defined by the class that can cast it. A spell list is not a necessary component for defining a class spell. Archivists do cast Archivist spells.

[Lord_Gareth]

Your snide and sarcastic comments are unnecessary, unproductive and unwarranted.

Your contribution of Argumentum ad hominem arguments are not appreciated.

Debate my points, ignore me or get out. Stop trolling me.

Quote some actual rules or get out. I asked for your interpretation. Instead you choose to act snide and superior. Back your claim up or dismiss it.

[Gotterdammerung]

Quote some actual rules or get out. I asked for your interpretation. Instead you choose to act snide and superior. Back your claim up or dismiss it.

All I have been doing is quoting and discussing rules. I am backing my claims. All you have been doing is posting snippy and sarcastic comments. You haven't provided even 1 rule quote and you haven't ever tried to back up your claims. At one point you even claimed to have proven me wrong without having done so.

I don't know what makes you think I am acting snide and superior. My comments up til now have all been about the rules and the topic at hand. And besides your opinion of me has no bearing on the rules. I could be hitler incarnate and you would still have to argue my points to prove me wrong.

[Psyren]

The entire conversation has been about what defines a spell. I am using his interpretation of the rules for this example. He says a spell is defined by what list it comes off of. therefore by his interpretation an archivist can learn and cast paladin spells and battle blessing can be applied to those spells. Then with the application of the Geomancer prestige class, the parameters of those paladin spells can be applied to all his spells. This is the reality of his interpretation. It has nothing to do with my readings of the rules.

And on the topic of my credentials for rules interpretation, aside from a lifetime of D&D experience, I have presided over several official dungeon and dragons conventions as a head rules DM. This is not to say I am infallible, or that my interpretations carry extra weight, however you accused me of having a questionable grasp of the rules. Therefore, it is necessary to bring up my credentials.

Credentials don't stop you from being wrong, even if they are perfectly factual. And you are wrong about both Battle Blessing (Geomancer gives you a specific list of the parameters you can affect - spell list is not one of them) and Shadow Conjuration (Miracle is not a wizard spell even if a wizard can cast it somehow.)

Beyond that, it's getting pretty heated in here so I think it's best if we all take a step back from the thread. (I certainly intend to.)

[Gotterdammerung]

Credentials don't stop you from being wrong, even if they are perfectly factual.

I said as much already. I only listed my credentials because you implied I had a less than standard grasp of the rules of D&D. My credentials show that I actually have a higher than standard grasp of the rules of D&D. I never said my credentials made me automatically right in fact I admitted I am still fallible.


And you are wrong about both Battle Blessing (Geomancer gives you a specific list of the parameters you can affect - spell list is not one of them) I am intimately familiar with spell versatility. Geomancer is my favorite class. You will notice in the recent Iron Chef competition I was the first one to bring up the specific list of parameters you can affect with Spell Versatility. Battle Blessing changes the allowed parameters for the casting of your paladin spells. Spell versatility allows you to mix an match casting parameters at the time of casting. They are most certainly compatible.


and Shadow Conjuration (Miracle is not a wizard spell even if a wizard can cast it somehow.)

Stating it like its fact does not make it fact. Back it up with some rules please.


Beyond that, it's getting pretty heated in here so I think it's best if we all take a step back from the thread. (I certainly intend to.)

I am still calm, although I am getting less and less interested in participating in this debate.

[Lord_Gareth]

You need to back your points up before they can be argued about.

Quote the Geomancer feature you're using, then we'll talk.

[Psyren]

I said as much already. I only listed my credentials because you implied I had a less than standard grasp of the rules of D&D.

I was only questioning your judgments in this thread, not your rules knowledge in general. I apologize if it came across that way.


I am intimately familiar with spell versatility. Geomancer is my favorite class. You will notice in the recent Iron Chef competition I was the first one to bring up the specific list of parameters you can affect with Spell Versatility. Battle Blessing changes the allowed parameters for the casting of your paladin spells. Spell versatility allows you to mix an match casting parameters at the time of casting. They are most certainly compatible.

Spell Versatility has very specific parameters it lets you alter. These are:
- Arcane or Divine
- Spell Failure
- Casting Stat
- Divine Focus in place of components (for spells that allow one or the other.)
- Spontaneous Curing

Changing spell lists is not mentioned anywhere. Your argument is summed up as "the rules don't say I can't!" which is an untenable approach to any RAW discussion as there are many things the rules do not say.



Stating it like its fact does not make it fact. Back it up with some rules please.

I did. We all did. This has been cited numerous times.

Miracle
Evocation
Level: Clr 9, Luck 9

And no matter how many other lists its shown up on, Wizard has never been one of them.

[AuraTwilight]

So by Gotteramdung's logic, if my character multiclasses in a psionic class, I can use Shadow Evocation to replicate Psionic Powers, right?

Because honestly, his entire argument basically boils down to the spell basically being able to work on what spells or abilities you can currently cast...Even though it's primarily intended for replicating spells on the Wizard/Sorcerer Spell List you don't have.

It can't be both, man. Either the spell is set in it's ways and allows everyone to draw on a font of power they otherwise don't have, or it just makes shi!tty, unreal versions of spells you can already cast.

[Gotterdammerung]

You need to back your points up before they can be argued about.

Quote the Geomancer feature you're using, then we'll talk.

You mean you have been commenting on an argument without researching the parameters of the discussion?
...So earlier when you said "Do regale us with how precisely you think that works. Go on. We'll wait." You mean to tell me that you didn't personally check to see if it works? You just assumed that I was wrong? Argumentum ad Hominem.



Spell Versatility has very specific parameters it lets you alter. These are:
- Arcane or Divine
- Spell Failure
- Casting Stat
- Divine Focus in place of components (for spells that allow one or the other.)
- Spontaneous Curing

Changing spell lists is not mentioned anywhere. Your argument is summed up as "the rules don't say I can't!" which is an untenable approach to any RAW discussion as there are many things the rules do not say.

Those are not parameters. Those are examples. And they are listed in the ability as such. An example is an instance serving for illustration. Examples by their nature are non-prohibitive.
The part before those examples tells you exactly how the ability works.
This is not a "rules don't say I can't so I can" scenario.

But there is no need to turn this thread into a "how does spell versatility work" argument thread.

This archivist example was just a small aside in response to an earlier statement about silliness and is not relevant to the main point.







I did. We all did. This has been cited numerous times.

Miracle
Evocation
Level: Clr 9, Luck 9

And no matter how many other lists its shown up on, Wizard has never been one of them.

I already directly addressed this very argument when I quoted page 123 of the rules compendium.


LEVEL
Spell level is a number between 0 and 9 that defi nes the
spell’s relative power. This number is preceded by the
name of the class whose members can cast the spell or an
abbreviation of that class.

This is the section of the rules that tells you exactly what Level: Clr 9, Luck 9 means.

The spell parameters like all game parameters are subject to change. If a feat changed the energy descriptor of a spell you would not argue that it has the original descriptor just because the original still does. You wouldn't keep the old range of a spell entry if an effect changed the range of the spell.

The level entry of a spell lists classes whose members can cast the spell. If an effect allows your class to cast the spell then this entry changes just like the others would and do, just like every entry is subject to change across the board in D&D. If a template changes your creature type it is changed. If feat increases your movement speed your movement entry is changed.


P.S. thank you for the apology but if i truly misunderstood your intentions then I should apologize. Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant.

[AuraTwilight]

You mean you have been commenting on an argument without researching the parameters of the discussion?
...So earlier when you said "Do regale us with how precisely you think that works. Go on. We'll wait." You mean to tell me that you didn't personally check to see if it works? You just assumed that I was wrong? Argumentum ad Hominem.

That's not what an ad hominem is. An ad hominem is when you personally attack an opponent's character instead of their argument; Lord Gareth requesting that you explain your reasonin is not an attack on your ethical integrity.

That being said, it is good form in any debate to provide the explanations for your reasoning, because in an actual debate, you can't just pause for intermission while your opponent does research on wtf you're talking about. That's BEFORE we get to the issue of alternate interpretations, misunderstandings, or lack of cited sources.

Explain how what you're citing does what you think it means, or step down. Refusal to do either is intellectually dishonest and cowardly.


Those are not parameters. Those are examples. And they are listed in the ability as such. An example is an instance serving for illustration. Examples by their nature are non-prohibitive.
The part before those examples tells you exactly how the ability works.
This is not a "rules don't say I can't so I can" scenario.

But there is no need to turn this thread into a "how does spell versatility work" argument thread.

This archivist example was just a small aside in response to an earlier statement about silliness and is not relevant to the main point.


Spell Versatility: At 1st level, the geomancer learns to blend divine and arcane magic. He still acquires and prepares his spells in the normal manner for his individual spellcasting classes. When he casts them, however, he can mix or match spellcasting parameters from any of his classes to gain the maximum possible advantage for any spell with a spell level equal to or less than his spell versatility score. Thus, as a 4th-level geomancer, he can cast any of his 3rd-level or lower sorcerer/wizard spells with no chance of arcane spell failure from armor. (The druidic prohibition against metal armor still applies to druid/geomancers, however, since this stricture stems from a spiritual oath rather than a practical limitation.) The geomancer may use his Wisdom modifier to set the save DC for arcane spells, or his Charisma or Intelligence modifier (whichever he would normally use for arcane spells) to set the save DC for divine spells. If a spell requires either an arcane material component or a divine focus, he may use either. A cleric/geomancer who also has levels of wizard, sorcerer, or bard can spontaneously convert any prepared arcane or divine spell (except a domain spell) of an appropriate level into a cure or inflict spell of equal or lower level, though he must be capable of casting the latter as a cleric.

Sooooo nowhere in this ability does it say you can add non-Wizard/Sorcerer spells to your Wizard/Sorcerer spell list. Only that it lets you spontaneously convert prepared spells into cure and inflict spells and that your spells can be treated as Arcane or Divine at your convenience.

Since Arcane does not automatically mean "Wizard/Sorcerer", due to the existence of other arcane spellcasters, your argument based on this ability basically falls apart. It appears to me you're simply seeing what you want to see, here, unless you can demonstrate otherwise.

[Piggy Knowles]

The spell parameters like all game parameters are subject to change. If a feat changed the energy descriptor of a spell you would not argue that it has the original descriptor just because the original still does. You wouldn't keep the old range of a spell entry if an effect changed the range of the spell.

By extrapolation, if I'm a sorcerer with Energy Substitution (Fire) as a feat, and I have a spell that says it can imitate any sorcerer/wizard spell with the [Fire] descriptor, does that mean it can imitate, say, a Fire-substituted Wings of Flurry?

Second question, if I'm a suel arcanamach, my spell list is comprised of all sorcerer/wizard abjuration, transmutation, illusion and divination spells of the appropriate level. Can I take Zeal as a spell known? It doesn't appear on the sorcerer/wizard list ordinarily, but it does appear on the Competition domain. If I've dipped a level of wizard and used Arcane Disciple to add Competition domain spells to my wizard list, then later take suel arcanamach, can I choose Zeal (and other Competition domain spells that otherwise meet suel arcanamach's parameters) as an arcanamach spell?

Those are my two main questions for anyone who argues that the Miracle/Arcane Disciple (Luck) trick works.

That said, for those who are arguing that it does NOT work:

If I have a contingent spell set up to go off whenever my opponent casts a sorcerer/wizard spell, and my opponent is a wizard with the Luck domain via Arcane Disciple and he casts Miracle, does my contingency go off?

I'm inclined to lean toward it not working, and the sorcerer/wizard list being a defined list of spells, with things like Arcane Disciple and Recaster and so on being specific exceptions. But either way, there's messiness.

[Gotterdammerung]

By extrapolation, if I'm a sorcerer with Energy Substitution (Fire) as a feat, and I have a spell that says it can imitate any sorcerer/wizard spell with the [Fire] descriptor, does that mean it can imitate, say, a Fire-substituted Wings of Flurry?

If it specifically says "any sorc/wiz spell" then yes you can.


Second question, if I'm a suel arcanamach, my spell list is comprised of all sorcerer/wizard abjuration, transmutation, illusion and divination spells of the appropriate level. Can I take Zeal as a spell known? It doesn't appear on the sorcerer/wizard list ordinarily, but it does appear on the Competition domain. If I've dipped a level of wizard and used Arcane Disciple to add Competition domain spells to my wizard list, then later take suel arcanamach, can I choose Zeal (and other Competition domain spells that otherwise meet suel arcanamach's parameters) as an arcanamach spell?

Suel arcanamach does not say that. It says "on the sorcerer/wizard spell list". It doesn't say "all sorcerer/wizard spells" or "any sorcerer/wizard spells".

The ability in question is shadow illusion from the shadowcraft mage prestige class. This ability does not say "spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list". it says "any sorcerer or wizard spell".

But both these questions hint at a larger question. Do specific changes to one character then govern all characters universally. I would lean towards saying no but it is a much tougher conversation than one might think.

If a feat adds tumble to your class skill list is it added permanently to that class for everyone? I would say no.

If you had an ability that only worked with class skills would it work with that skill? Yes, it is a class skill for you now. It doesn't matter that it wasn't an original class skill.

Things don't have to be universal to be applicable. And just because things are personally applicable does not automatically mean they have to be universally applicable.


That said, for those who are arguing that it does NOT work:

If I have a contingent spell set up to go off whenever my opponent casts a sorcerer/wizard spell, and my opponent is a wizard with the Luck domain via Arcane Disciple and he casts Miracle, does my contingency go off?

I'm inclined to lean toward it not working, and the sorcerer/wizard list being a defined list of spells, with things like Arcane Disciple and Recaster and so on being specific exceptions. But either way, there's messiness.

Thank you, that is a much clearer example of what I was trying to say earlier about it having silly ramifications on both sides.

[JaronK]

If I have a contingent spell set up to go off whenever my opponent casts a sorcerer/wizard spell, and my opponent is a wizard with the Luck domain via Arcane Disciple and he casts Miracle, does my contingency go off?

I'd say it would depend on your wording. If you said it goes off "when a Wizard or Sorcerer casts a spell" it goes off. If you said "when a Sorcerer/Wizard spell is cast" I think it would not go off for Arcane Disciple Miracles, but might go off if you had said "when a Cleric spell is cast" because Miracle is a Cleric spell.

JaronK

[Psyren]

Is "sorcerer/wizard spell" even an observable characteristic? If someone casts Summon Monster near that guy, the caster could be a Sorcerer, Wizard, Bard, Cleric, Favored Soul, Binder, Savant, faking it with UMD, faking it as a Factotum, using a racial SLA... it's a pretty useless analogy.

[JaronK]

Good point, that might be one of those things that contingency can't figure out anyway.

JaronK

[Darius Kane]

When your Wizard, lets call him Stan, takes Arcane Disciple (Luck) he gets the Miracle on his list. Shadow Conjuration emulates Wizard or Sorcerer spells. The Miracle is on Stan's list, not on Wizard/Sorcerer list, thus it isn't a Wizard or Sorcerer spell. It's Stan's spell.

[Gotterdammerung]

When your Wizard, lets call him Stan, takes Arcane Disciple (Luck) he gets the Miracle on his list. Shadow Conjuration emulates Wizard or Sorcerer spells. The Miracle is on Stan's list, not on Wizard/Sorcerer list, thus it isn't a Wizard or Sorcerer spell. It's Stan's spell.

By that logic, if Stan the wizard follows the rules to create a brand new spell (lets call it Booger) then that spell is also not a wizard spell because it doesn't appear on any master lists. Stan the wizard can't apply any effects that react with wizard spells to booger. What kind of spell is Booger? No one knows but its definitely not a wizard spell, even though it was invented by a wizard, written in a wizard spell book, and cast with a wizard spell slots by a wizard.

Yeh, I don't buy it, and the rules don't back it.

[Darius Kane]

There are no rules for making a Booger. Don't bring up houserules into a discussion of RAW.

[JaronK]

By that logic, if Stan the wizard follows the rules to create a brand new spell (lets call it Booger) then that spell is also not a wizard spell because it doesn't appear on any master lists. Stan the wizard can't apply any effects that react with wizard spells to booger.

What effects that react with Wizard spells are you referring to with this custom spell? Metamagics and such work fine. The only thing that doesn't happen is every Shadow Evocation spell in the world (and every other world/plane) doesn't suddenly get the ability to simulate your spell (assuming it was an evocation). That's actually relatively reasonable.

So yes, your new spell doesn't instantly propagate across the planes, because it's Stan's spell only, not a general Wizard spell.

JaronK

[Gotterdammerung]

There are no rules for making a Booger. Don't bring up houserules into a discussion of RAW.

There are no rules for wizards creating new spells? Hmmm, I think you might want to re-read the books there buddy.



What effects that react with Wizard spells are you referring to with this custom spell? Metamagics and such work fine. The only thing that doesn't happen is every Shadow Evocation spell in the world (and every other world/plane) doesn't suddenly get the ability to simulate your spell (assuming it was an evocation). That's actually relatively reasonable.

So yes, your new spell doesn't instantly propagate across the planes, because it's Stan's spell only, not a general Wizard spell.

JaronK

And the spells that appear here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a don't belong to any class because they aren't on any of the master lists.

[AuraTwilight]

By that logic, if Stan the wizard follows the rules to create a brand new spell (lets call it Booger) then that spell is also not a wizard spell because it doesn't appear on any master lists. Stan the wizard can't apply any effects that react with wizard spells to booger. What kind of spell is Booger? No one knows but its definitely not a wizard spell, even though it was invented by a wizard, written in a wizard spell book, and cast with a wizard spell slots by a wizard.

Yeh, I don't buy it, and the rules don't back it.

You realize how inherently incongruent it is to compare the creation of new spells with a wizard simply learning to use someone else's magic?

Your argument completely breaks down the existence of class lists because Gods can basically do anything, so surely they should be able to grant Sorcerer/Wizard spells to Clerics and thus make them Cleric spells.

The rules don't back entirely deconstructing the existence of Class Lists like you claim. The existence of a new arcane spell is different from anything you're proposing ipso facto.

And yea, spells have to propagate in the D&D rules and universe, by the mere fact that Wizards don't just download all possible arcane spells into their brain. Shadow Evocation is not a semi-sentient spell that can look up a "Sorcerer/Wizard Spell Wiki" for all possible updates, it's a constructed, repeatable formula with predictable behavior programmed with the ability to emulate all these observed effects familiar to pretty much all wizards ever.

[JaronK]

There are no rules for wizards creating new spells? Hmmm, I think you might want to re-read the books there buddy.

Note that the rules for that basically boil down to "it's up to the DM, try to keep it balanced." That's actually it. So... REALLY fuzzy area.

JaronK

[Darius Kane]

There are no rules for wizards creating new spells? Hmmm, I think you might want to re-read the books there buddy.
[Citation needed]


And the spells that appear here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a don't belong to any class because they aren't on any of the master lists.

Acorn of Far Travel
Transmutation
Level: Druid 2, Ranger 2

Creaking Cacophony
Illusion (Figment) [Sonic]
Level: Bard 3, Druid 3, Sorcerer/Wizard 4

Deadfall
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Druid 8

Fey Ring
Conjuration (Calling) [See text]
Level: Bard 6, Cleric 7, Druid 6, Sorcerer/Wizard 7

Splinterbolt
Evocation
Level: Druid 2, Sorcerer/Wizard 2
I think you might want to re-read the spell descriptions there, comrade.

[Vaern]

By that logic, if Stan the wizard follows the rules to create a brand new spell (lets call it Booger) then that spell is also not a wizard spell because it doesn't appear on any master lists. Stan the wizard can't apply any effects that react with wizard spells to booger. What kind of spell is Booger? No one knows but its definitely not a wizard spell, even though it was invented by a wizard, written in a wizard spell book, and cast with a wizard spell slots by a wizard.

Yeh, I don't buy it, and the rules don't back it.
Creating a new spell and gaining access to a spell are two completely different things.

A spell description includes the classes capable of casting it. The rules for creating a new spell say that the attempt to create it fails if the spell is not viable.
Most DMs won't let a player to successfully create a spell that he can't cast himself. Assuming Stan the wizard is just an average run-of-the-mill wizard, he can't cast a spell that isn't labeled as a wizard spell. Therefore, assuming Stan is just an average wizard, Booger must be a wizard spell, regardless of how unknown it is. If another wizard finds his spellbook, they are capable of copying Booger just like any other wizard spell.

Taking Arcane Disciple doesn't change the limitations of the spell, like you keep insisting that it does. A feat changes the limitations of the character with the feat, not the entire world surrounding the character with the feat.
A wizard gaining access to the Luck domain doesn't turn Miracle into a wizard spell. It turns the wizard into a character whose class spell list consists of the wizard spells and the luck domain.


[Citation needed]
DMG 3.5, page 198

[Darius Kane]

These "rules" say they are guidelines.

So... yeah, I stand by my statement.

[Vaern]

These "rules" say they are guidelines.

So... yeah, I stand by my statement.
If you think about it, everything in D&D is guidelines. The books are full of side bars containing variant suggestions and house rule ideas, rather than forcing you to take everything exactly as it is written in the main text. The only thing that really matters is that what the DM says goes.

[Darius Kane]

Except some things are called "rules" and some are called "guidelines". And I take "rules" as, you guessed it, rules.

[TuggyNE]

If you think about it, everything in D&D is guidelines. The books are full of side bars containing variant suggestions and house rule ideas, rather than forcing you to take everything exactly as it is written in the main text. The only thing that really matters is that what the DM says goes.

I'm sorry, but that's sophistry; there is a large and obvious difference between default rules (which are assumed in all cases) or variant rules (which are generally at least moderately thought-out and carefully worded, but have to be opted into by the DM) on the one hand, and general guidelines (which require interpolation from the DM in order to function at all) or vague suggestions (which need a thorough homebrewing before you can get anything done) on the other. The essential difference between those, of course, is whether the DM needs to work out the details first before using them; i.e., whether they're actual complete fully-fledged rules.

Guess which side spell research falls on.

[Vaern]

You seem to have completely ignored the point of that post: What the DM says goes.

And even though it says "guidelines" in the section for creating spells, it lists a very specific process for the development of a spell including cost, time, a spellcraft check, and a final result. That sounds like what you might call a variant rule to me, although it is written in the main text.
The only vague guidelines that require consideration from the DM is the spell's actual effect. But this isn't a question of whether a specific spell can be created, or even the process of creating them. The question is whether it's possible for a character to create a spell at all.

[Darius Kane]

What the DM says goes.
Not relevant in a discussion of RAW.

[Vaern]

Not relevant in a discussion of RAW.
And not ever discussion about the game is strictly RAW. It was the creator of the thread who proposed the creation of a hypothetical spell. It was his discussion. You could easily have made a point without completely disregarding his question.

[Darius Kane]

It was the creator of the thread who proposed the creation of a hypothetical spell.
As an argument for a wrong interpretation of RAW.

[Vaern]

As an argument for a wrong interpretation of RAW.
The argument was whether or not there's a difference between wizard spells and the wizard class spell list. That seems like a RAI argument to me, and bringing up a hypothetical custom spell an example seems perfectly acceptable to make a point in that situation.

[nedz]

I considered joining this debate by raising the issue of spell research — but I didn't — because Spell Research relies on Rule 0. Rule 0 means DM fiat and is irrelevant to the discussion of RAW.

[Darius Kane]

The argument was whether or not there's a difference between wizard spells and the wizard class spell list.
When Stan adds a divine spell, using the Arcane Disciple feat, to his spell list it is a "Stan spell" on "Stan's spell list", not a "Wizard spell" on "Wizard spell list", and therefore can't be mimicked with Shadow Conjuration.
When Stan homebrews researches a spell and adds it to his spell list it is a "Stan spell" on "Stan's spell list", not a "Wizard spell" on "Wizard spell list", and therefore can't be mimicked with Shadow Conjuration.
A "Wizard spell" is a spell that every Wizard can take. Not every Wizard can take Miracle, because not every Wizard has the Arcane Disciple feat, therefore it's not a Wizard spell. A "Wizard spell list" is a list of spells that every Wizard can take. Any spell that's not on that list is not a "Wizard spell".
Homebrewing Researching spells is outside of a RAW discussion and therefore not relevant here, but even if it were it still doesn't prove anything.

[strider24seven]

And thus we have come around to the monthly thread of
Arcane Disciple + SCM = Shadow Miracle
and arguing about what constitutes a spell list.

[Vaern]

Oh. I found where it says "Only the creator of such a spell can prepare and cast it, unless he decides to share it with others." It's in the under independent research in the divine spells section of the PHB. I guess I was wrong about that bit after all.

I don't see how researching spells is outside of RAW. The process is clearly laid out, and the one line I just found would have been more than enough to avoid a full page of pointless arguing.
Homebrewing spell effects is outside of RAW's grasp, but there's more than enough about the subject to at least acknowledge Booger's existence for the sake of its intended argument.

[nedz]

And thus we have come around to the monthly thread of
Arcane Disciple + SCM = Shadow Miracle
and arguing about what constitutes a spell list.

And this would be the other reason I avoided this debate. :smallsigh:

It really all comes down to how you choose to interpret RAW — which is never going to be resolved.

[Gotterdammerung]

When Stan adds a divine spell, using the Arcane Disciple feat, to his spell list it is a "Stan spell" on "Stan's spell list", not a "Wizard spell" on "Wizard spell list", and therefore can't be mimicked with Shadow Conjuration.

Whatever you choose to call stan's spell list, it doesn't change the fact that he has a class spell list. His class is wizard, his class spell list is the wizard spell list. Arcane disciple specifically adds these domains to his class spell list. These spells are added to his wizard spell list. Any spells on that list are wizard spells. Shadow Illusion can be used with "any wizard or sorcerer evocation or conjuration spell." It does not say it can only mimic spells that every wizard and sorcerer has access too. It does not say only spells from the sorcerer or wizard spell list. It does say any sorc or wiz spell. It doesn't matter if he is the only one in the world who can cast miracle as a wizard spell, because arcane disciple has made miracle a wizard spell for him and therefore it falls under the category of "any wizard spell".


When Stan homebrews researches a spell and adds it to his spell list it is a "Stan spell" on "Stan's spell list", not a "Wizard spell" on "Wizard spell list", and therefore can't be mimicked with Shadow Conjuration.


The rules on creating spells give specific guidelines for assigning it to the proper class, so no personally created spells do not just become "Stan's spell".



A "Wizard spell" is a spell that every Wizard can take. Not every Wizard can take Miracle, because not every Wizard has the Arcane Disciple feat, therefore it's not a Wizard spell. A "Wizard spell list" is a list of spells that every Wizard can take. Any spell that's not on that list is not a "Wizard spell". Show me in the book where it backs the bolded statement. Show me anything even remotely supporting that assumption. This conversation would be non-existent if the book just said a "wizard spell" is a spell that every wizard can take. But it doesn't say anything even remotely near that.






Homebrewing Researching spells is outside of a RAW discussion and therefore not relevant here, but even if it were it still doesn't prove anything.

Vaern just explained why it was relevant to bring up.


I don't see how researching spells is outside of RAW. The process is clearly laid out, and the one line I just found would have been more than enough to avoid a full page of pointless arguing.
Homebrewing spell effects is outside of RAW's grasp, but there's more than enough about the subject to at least acknowledge Booger's existence for the sake of its intended argument.

But ultimately all this extemporaneous discussion is unnecessary. Arcane Disciple adds the spells to his wizard spell list, that makes them wizard spells. They are now on a list of wizard spells. Shadow illusion works with any wizard spell. The combo works.

The argument over whether personal changes govern universally is irrelevant.
Because even if its only a wizard spell to him personally, it still is a wizard spell and therefore can be used by an ability that specifies "any wizard spell."

[JaronK]

Show me in the book where it backs the bolded statement. Show me anything even remotely supporting that assumption. This conversation would be non-existent if the book just said a "wizard spell" is a spell that every wizard can take. But it doesn't say anything even remotely near that.

At the top of every single Wizard/Sorcerer spell list, they call them "Wizard Spells" or "Wizard and Sorcerer spells." And when you level up, any Wizard can take two free spells from that list. So yes, a Wizard spell is a spell any Wizard can take (of sufficient level). So that's... about 50 things that more than "even remotely supporting that assumption."

The simple fact is, "Wizard spells" and "spells found on the general Wizard spell lists" are synonyms. We know that because that's what every spell list is labeled as.


But ultimately all this extemporaneous discussion is unnecessary. Arcane Disciple adds the spells to his wizard spell list, that makes them wizard spells.

Where does Arcane Disciple say this? I see it saying it's added to his spell list, but it says nothing about the Wizard spell list or specifically saying it counts as a Wizard spell now in any way.

JaronK

[Gotterdammerung]

The simple fact is, "Wizard spells" and "spells found on the general Wizard spell lists" are synonyms. We know that because that's what every spell list is labeled as. Spells found on the general wizard spell list are wizard spells. I agree. But that fact does not mean that wizard spells are exclusively defined by whether they appear on the general wizard spell list or not. Just because all squares are rectangles does not make all rectangles squares.




Where does Arcane Disciple say this? I see it saying it's added to his spell list, but it says nothing about the Wizard spell list or specifically saying it counts as a Wizard spell now in any way.

JaronK

It doesn't say "his spell list". It says

Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells.

the Wizard Spell List IS his class list of arcane spells. The Wizard Spell List is a list of wizard spells. Adding new spells to the list does not change its function as a list of wizard spells, no matter what source they originally came from.

[JaronK]

"Your class list", when put into the third person, becomes "his class list." As in "the Wizard Stan has a class list, and it contains these spells." That's not the same as "once the Wizard Stan can cast X spell, that spell is now on the general Wizard class list."

"Your class list" != "The Wizard class list."


Spells found on the general wizard spell list are wizard spells. I agree. But that fact does not mean that wizard spells are exclusively defined by whether they appear on the general wizard spell list or not. Just because all squares are rectangles does not make all rectangles squares.

Where in the rules does it actually say the spells are added to "The Wizard/Sorcerer Class List"? Because that's what "Wizard or Sorcerer Spell" means. That's why all Wizard/Sorcerer class lists are called "Wizard/Sorcerer Spells."

JaronK

[Gotterdammerung]

"Your class list", when put into the third person, becomes "his class list." As in "the Wizard Stan has a class list, and it contains these spells." That's not the same as "once the Wizard Stan can cast X spell, that spell is now on the general Wizard class list."

"Your class list" != "The Wizard class list."



Where in the rules does it actually say the spells are added to "The Wizard/Sorcerer Class List"? Because that's what "Wizard or Sorcerer Spell" means. That's why all Wizard/Sorcerer class lists are called "Wizard/Sorcerer Spells."

JaronK

The part where the feat says to add it to his class list.

What class is he? Wizard.

What class list does the wizard use? The wizard spell list.

He is a wizard, his class list is the wizard spell list, ergo, the feat adds it to the wizard spell list.

"Generic" class spell lists? There is no "generic" game descriptor on the wizard's class list. Where are you getting this from?


"The wizard Stan's class list"? Translate that thought into its final game term description and you get "Stan's wizard spell list."

[Darius Kane]

The part where the feat says to add it to his class list.

What class is he? Wizard.

What class list does the wizard use? The wizard spell list.

He is a wizard, his class list is the wizard spell list, ergo, the feat adds it to the wizard spell list.

"Generic" class spell lists? There is no "generic" game descriptor on the wizard's class list. Where are you getting this from?


"The wizard Stan's class list"? Translate that thought into its final game term description and you get "Stan's wizard spell list."
1 milion points question: What if Stan isn't a Wizard? :O

[AuraTwilight]

Whatever you choose to call stan's spell list, it doesn't change the fact that he has a class spell list. His class is wizard, his class spell list is the wizard spell list.

Stan multiclassed in Druid. Wizard spells and Druid spells are both on Stan's spell list, therefore Druid Spells are now Wizard spells.

Your argument is stupid.

[Psyren]

Or what if Stan is an Archivist? Or Mystic Theurge? Or Cerebremancer? Or Ultimate Magus? Does any spell he research get added to all lists he has access to simultaneously? What if he's a Sha'ir, would it get added to his domains too?

[Rijan_Sai]

Stan multiclassed in Druid. Wizard spells and Druid spells are both on Stan's spell list, therefore Druid Spells are now Wizard spells.

Your argument is stupid.

(I was going to avoid this, and I need to leave, but...)

No, yours is. Multiclass Druid/Wizard Stan has "Stan's Druid Spell List" as well as "Stan's Wizard Spell List." Both totaly separate from each other.

*We now return you to your regularly scheduled argument*

[Psyren]

(I was going to avoid this, and I need to leave, but...)

No, yours is. Multiclass Druid/Wizard Stan has "Stan's Druid Spell List" as well as "Stan's Wizard Spell List." Both totaly separate from each other.

No. He has the wizard spell list, the druid spell list, and "Stan's list." Nothing he creates himself will be added to either of the first two.

[nedz]

Suppose the Wizard/Druid Stan takes the Southern Magician feat ?

[Psyren]

Suppose the Wizard/Druid Stan takes the Southern Magician feat ?

That doesn't say anything about making Miracle a Wizard spell.

[nedz]

That doesn't say anything about making Miracle a Wizard spell.

Well obviously not, but Stan can cast Druid spells as Arcane spells.

[Psyren]

Well obviously not, but Stan can cast Druid spells as Arcane spells.

What does that have to do with Shadow Conjuration?

[JaronK]

Note that by the ruling that "if any Wizard can cast it on his list, Shadow Conjuration/Evocation can cast it" pretty much every Evocation, Conjuration Summoning, and Conjuration Creation spell can be cast. You've got Dragonwrought Kobolds who can cast off the entire Cleric or Druid list as Sorcerers (due to Sovereign Archetypes). The existence of just one such creature, Gotter's claiming, lets you cast all those spells. Even without Dragonwrought there's going to be some Great Wyrm dragon with the appropriate Sovereign Archetype.

JaronK

[Acanous]

The ACF says he adds the domain spells to his class list. For intents and purposes of things he does, those spells are considered to be on his class list. If they weren't, it wouldn't say so.

Trying to say that doesn't work is like saying if you took Racial Heritage: Orc that you couldn't use Orc-only items/spells/features, because you're not an orc, you just count as one.

[AuraTwilight]

(I was going to avoid this, and I need to leave, but...)

No, yours is. Multiclass Druid/Wizard Stan has "Stan's Druid Spell List" as well as "Stan's Wizard Spell List." Both totaly separate from each other.

*We now return you to your regularly scheduled argument*

Yes, thank you for pointing out the incredibly obvious logical fallacy in my post meant to demonstrate what Gotterdammerung is committing himself. Your reading comprehension is fantastic.


The ACF says he adds the domain spells to his class list. For intents and purposes of things he does, those spells are considered to be on his class list. If they weren't, it wouldn't say so.

Trying to say that doesn't work is like saying if you took Racial Heritage: Orc that you couldn't use Orc-only items/spells/features, because you're not an orc, you just count as one.

You're right, but that's HIS class list, not "The Sorcerer/Wizard spell list." The two are different, despite being functionally the same thing until Stan starts messing with it.

[Acanous]

The line pointed out by Gotter specified it gets added to his "Class list" though, not personal list. So any other spells he casts that key off his class list (This case being Wizard) would count that spell as being on it.

[Darius Kane]

His class list IS his personal list. The part in a spells description that tells you to which spell lists a the spell belongs is the only thing that matters here. A spell either is on a spell list or it isn't. There's no "but's" or "if's".

[Gotterdammerung]

His class list IS his personal list.

Personal list is not a game term supported by the rules. A player can make a personal list of spells he can cast for reference, but it has no bearing on the rules.

He is a wizard. The wizard's class list is the wizard spell list. His class list is the wizard spell list.

[Darius Kane]

Stan isn't a Wizard. Your argument is invalid.

Do you see the part in Arcane Disciple's description that says it adds the spells to the Wizard spell list? Yeah, me neither.

[Gotterdammerung]

Note that by the ruling that "if any Wizard can cast it on his list, Shadow Conjuration/Evocation can cast it" pretty much every Evocation, Conjuration Summoning, and Conjuration Creation spell can be cast. You've got Dragonwrought Kobolds who can cast off the entire Cleric or Druid list as Sorcerers (due to Sovereign Archetypes). The existence of just one such creature, Gotter's claiming, lets you cast all those spells. Even without Dragonwrought there's going to be some Great Wyrm dragon with the appropriate Sovereign Archetype.

JaronK


And the existence of Sarrukh's made Pun Pun possible. These ramifications have no bearing on whether or not the combination works by raw. As the content of any system grows, resource mining material will always skyrocket in power. As more spells are introduced, the divine salient ability Alter Reality grows in power,and wish, limited wish, miracle, and any other resource mining spell grow in power. As more monsters are statted spells that mine for monster forms increase in power. Possibilities of the game change as new feats are introduced.

A large % of these power spikes from expanding content cause horrendous balance issues within the game.

And these are all wonderful opportunities for a DM to flex his muscles and exercise his power to re-balance his game.
But none of that has any bearing on the RAW.

[Psyren]

But none of that has any bearing on the RAW.

You have yet to show any RAW that says that Miracle is on the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

[JaronK]

And the existence of Sarrukh's made Pun Pun possible. These ramifications have no bearing on whether or not the combination works by raw. As the content of any system grows, resource mining material will always skyrocket in power. As more spells are introduced, the divine salient ability Alter Reality grows in power,and wish, limited wish, miracle, and any other resource mining spell grow in power. As more monsters are statted spells that mine for monster forms increase in power. Possibilities of the game change as new feats are introduced.

A large % of these power spikes from expanding content cause horrendous balance issues within the game.

And these are all wonderful opportunities for a DM to flex his muscles and exercise his power to re-balance his game.
But none of that has any bearing on the RAW.

It does, however, mean that taking Arcane Disciple: Luck is a complete wasted feat either way and the trick either doesn't work at all or does nothing because you have the ability to cast the entire Cleric and Druid Evocation/Conjuration(Summoning and Creation) list anyway as well as all relevant domain spells.

At least that part we can agree on.

JaronK

[Gotterdammerung]

You have yet to show any RAW that says that Miracle is on the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

Yeh except I did. Arcane Disciple (luck domain) puts it on the list.

[Darius Kane]

Arcane Disciple (luck domain) puts it on Stan's list.
Fixed that for ya.

Stan isn't a Wizard.

[Gotterdammerung]

Fixed that for ya.

Quit making up game terms that aren't supported in the rules. There is no such thing as "Stan's list".

[JaronK]

Quit making up game terms that aren't supported in the rules. There is no such thing as "Stan's list".

Sure there is. You keep quoting it. "Your class list." That's just Stan's. Not "The class list."

JaronK

[Darius Kane]

I'm not. And there's no Miracle on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list.

[Gotterdammerung]

Sure there is. You keep quoting it. "Your class list." That's just Stan's. Not "The class list."

JaronK

Everything on your character has a game term. The game term here is class list. Just because it is on your character and is your class list, does not make it instantly impotent. It doesn't make it work any differently, or somehow less important. That isn't the way the game works. And if you force that interpretation then the whole game falls apart. Nothing interacts with anything from the books because everything becomes "your X" and is no longer compatible with the rules. Feats don't interact with attacks because they are "your attacks" instead of just attacks. Nothing interacts with skills because they are " your skills" instead of just skills. Nothing interacts with spells because they are "your spells" instead of spells.

If you have to tear the fabric of game apart to justify your interpretation of RAW - I don't mean unbalance it, I mean crush the game... reduce it to an incoherent paradoxical pile of rubble, then chances are you aren't interpreting it the right way.

[Vaern]

Taking Arcane Disciple doesn't change the limitations of the spell, like you keep insisting that it does. A feat changes the limitations of the character with the feat, not the entire world surrounding the character with the feat.
A wizard gaining access to the Luck domain doesn't turn Miracle into a wizard spell. It turns the wizard into a character whose class spell list consists of the wizard spells and the luck domain.
Reposting, since the portion of that post that was actually relevant to the discussion seems to have been completely overshadowed by the argument following the post in question.
I stand by this statement.


If you have to tear the fabric of game apart to justify your interpretation of RAW - I don't mean unbalance it, I mean crush the game... reduce it to an incoherent paradoxical pile of rubble, then chances are you aren't interpreting it the right way.
I'd like to point out that the way you're interpreting RAW is completely reducing the concept of differentiation of class spell lists to an incoherent paradoxical pile of rubble.

[Baron Corm]

IMO, "Wizard spells" can refer to multiple, entirely separate things. So can "up a level" and "down a level".

IMO, the writers of D&D didn't have arguments like this in mind, nor did they have perfect proofreading, so sometimes you'll find vague, incomplete, or contradicting statements/rules.

IMO, you guys will never convince each other, and should agree to disagree.

[Psyren]

Yeh except I did. Arcane Disciple (luck domain) puts it on the list.

It lets Stan cast it. There is no sourcebook that puts Miracle on a list of Wizard spells. You're the one who isn't following RAW here.

[Piggy Knowles]

For another theoretical question...

If adding a spell to my class spell list lets me emulate it with Shadow Evocation, if I had a class feature that removed a spell from my personal list, would that prohibit me from emulating it with Shadow Evication?

[Vaz]

How can Greater Shadow Evocation let a Wiz cast Miracle anyhow? It is limited to 7ths.

In regards to Sorcerer and Wizard spells, referring to generic Divine/Domain Evocation spell from Arcane Disciple, if you are a Wizard and you have Arcane Disciple of the relevant domain, then you yourself can cast the Shadow Evocation spell, provided you have taken that domain.

[Vaern]

For another theoretical question...

If adding a spell to my class spell list lets me emulate it with Shadow Evocation, if I had a class feature that removed a spell from my personal list, would that prohibit me from emulating it with Shadow Evication?
I don't see why it would. The spell doesn't care what's on your personal list. All that matters is that the emulated spell is a sorcerer or wizard evocation. As a matter of fact, Shadow Evocation is on the bard spell list, allowing bards to cast shadows of spells they normally don't have access to.

[Karnith]

How can Greater Shadow Evocation let a Wiz cast Miracle anyhow? It is limited to 7ths.
Greater Shadow Evocation can't let you do so, but cheese involving a shadowcraft mage's Shadow Illusion ability, and using Heighten Spell and Earth Spell together, does let you mimic Wizard/Sorcerer spells of up to 9th level.

[AuraTwilight]

I don't see why it would. The spell doesn't care what's on your personal list. All that matters is that the emulated spell is a sorcerer or wizard evocation. As a matter of fact, Shadow Evocation is on the bard spell list, allowing bards to cast shadows of spells they normally don't have access to.

And this is exactly why "Shadow Evocation can do Cleric spells if my character knows them" is really goddamn dumb.

Stan is a Bard. He has no Sorcerer/Wizard spell list to reference...except THE class list.

[Cruiser1]

IMO, "Wizard spells" can refer to multiple, entirely separate things.

Yes, exactly! We have at least two different things:

The generic set of all spells normally castable by Wizards. This is fixed and never changes (barring new sourcebooks). If a spell is marked as "Wiz 5" or something, it's in this set.
The specific set of spells on a specific character's class list that they are able to cast through their Wizard class levels. This can be adjusted (added to or removed from) in various ways, such as adding via Arcane Disciple or removing via specialization.

The concept of "Wizard spells" may refer to one or the other. "Wizard spells" on its own is ambiguous by RAW, and can't be proven to mean either "generic Wizard spells" or "character's Wizard spells". People can try to argue RAI one way or another (usually motivated by "I want my character to be able to do X" or "I don't want characters to be able to do X for balance reasons") but again the problem can't be resolved by RAW, and comes down to DM rulings in specific games.

[Jack_Simth]

For another theoretical question...

If adding a spell to my class spell list lets me emulate it with Shadow Evocation, if I had a class feature that removed a spell from my personal list, would that prohibit me from emulating it with Shadow Evication?
It would be the same logic, yes, irrespective of whether or not the logic is correct.