Double 9 Planar Shepherd?

[ecw1701]

Greetings, folks:

I am wondering if it's possible to build some sort of Arcane Hierophant / Planar Shepherd non-gestalt build that gets Arcane / Druid Double 9s?

Little background: I'm playing in campaign with only 3 players: Paladin, Cleric, me. Anything is allowed, since we've played together a very long time and know how not to be terrible, lol.

The concept is a character *like* Gandalf, or The Doctor, who is immensely powerful, but primarily uses diplomacy or misdirection to solve his problems, but sometimes the situation calls for a fireball. I'm also open to Factotum levels, since I like the flavor of it, but it's very important that when push come to shove I could wreck an army if I had to. I'd also like any feedback on what plane to pick; I'm leaning towards Dal'Quor since the 10:1 time is what I want the most, but I'm open to other planes that have that with better WS options (read: Efreeti).

Tl;DR Version: How to get Double 9 Arcane/Druid casting with at least Planar Shepherd 5 and no Beholder Mage crap. Most anything else is fair game.

Extra points for triple 9 builds, haha.

Thanks!

[Urpriest]

Some thoughts:

First, if all you want from your arcane side is the ability to toss a Fireball or such occasionally, you can do that with Druid. Druid has plenty of direct damage spells if you want to throw down, and plenty of subtle spells if you want them.

Second, if your group reads spellcasting as being an Ex ability (there are some arguments to that effect, though I find them somewhat dubious) then as a Planar Shepherd Arcane 9ths are only a wildshape away. Just turn into something with that sort of casting and you'll have double 9s.

Third, Planar Shepherd only advances Divine Casting. You can get in at 5th level, but that requires at least Wild Shape, so we're talking Druid 5 or Wild Shape Ranger 5. Since you really can't get Druid 9ths without Druid 5 (unless Bligher 9ths count), we'll assume that. So you've got Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 5. Alternate Source spell can arguably get you into Sublime Chord if you have a Bard dip, so let's say something like Bard 1/Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 5/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Hierophant 8, which I think just barely get you double 9s. But there may be issues with this build that make it unviable.

[Piggy Knowles]

Depending on your plane of choice, you could always use Planar Shepherd to turn into a creature with the required casting.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Ur-Priest.

[ecw1701]

Some thoughts:

First, if all you want from your arcane side is the ability to toss a Fireball or such occasionally, you can do that with Druid. Druid has plenty of direct damage spells if you want to throw down, and plenty of subtle spells if you want them.

Second, if your group reads spellcasting as being an Ex ability (there are some arguments to that effect, though I find them somewhat dubious) then as a Planar Shepherd Arcane 9ths are only a wildshape away. Just turn into something with that sort of casting and you'll have double 9s.

Third, Planar Shepherd only advances Divine Casting. You can get in at 5th level, but that requires at least Wild Shape, so we're talking Druid 5 or Wild Shape Ranger 5. Since you really can't get Druid 9ths without Druid 5 (unless Bligher 9ths count), we'll assume that. So you've got Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 5. Alternate Source spell can arguably get you into Sublime Chord if you have a Bard dip, so let's say something like Bard 1/Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 5/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Hierophant 8, which I think just barely get you double 9s. But there may be issues with this build that make it unviable.

Quick aside, I've been reading these boards for ages, and I always like your stuff Ur-Priest; and you are, in fact, always right.

I'll take a closer look at Bard 1/Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 5/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Hierophant 8; that might in fact solve my problem. I don't mind a tough climb, as long as it's doable. I was thinking along the lines of Wiz 2/Druid 3 /AH 10 /PS 5 but I'm not sure it would add up.

I've scoured the interwebs for 10:1 time ratio planes with full caster wild shape options, but it really does seem to be either or. I don't really care about the cheese wishes, but I want to be able to simulate the "How on EARTH did he just do that" almost Deus Ex Machina effect both The Doctor and Gandalf have. And I think snapping my fingers, and having all their weapons turn to ashes and find all their shoelaces tied together in an instant would do that (since they couldn't perceive me moving 10:1). Obviously 3 free wishes a day would get that across, too.

Thank you for the input, please keep it coming!

[Urpriest]

I've scoured the interwebs for 10:1 time ratio planes with full caster wild shape options, but it really does seem to be either or. I don't really care about the cheese wishes, but I want to be able to simulate the "How on EARTH did he just do that" almost Deus Ex Machina effect both The Doctor and Gandalf have. And I think snapping my fingers, and having all their weapons turn to ashes and find all their shoelaces tied together in an instant would do that (since they couldn't perceive me moving 10:1). Obviously 3 free wishes a day would get that across, too.


I've heard it argued that Dal Quor, as the Plane of Dreams, has dream-versions of every monster. But again, not familiar enough with Eberron fluff to verify that.

[ecw1701]

I've heard it argued that Dal Quor, as the Plane of Dreams, has dream-versions of every monster. But again, not familiar enough with Eberron fluff to verify that.

Dream up a Modron, polymorph to look like 'myself', turn on 10:1 time, win the game. Done, lol.

*Edit:
Although, in all seriousness in terms of power, and even versatility, I suppose Druid 5/ Planar Shepherd 10 / Druid 5 is going to outperform Bard 1/Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 5/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Hierophant 8, wouldn't it?

[ecw1701]

Ah, and I just saw that Sublime Chord requires "Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells", so the Bard 1/Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 5/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Hierophant 8 wouldn't work, after all. Weak.

*Edit: Amazing what happens when you check before you talk:
Alternate Spell Source
Name Alternative Source Spell
Type Metamagic
May be taken multiple times No
The effects stack No
Version Dragon 325
Sources Dragon Magazine #325 on page 61
Prelude You can prepare any of your spells as either divine or arcane.
Prerequisites
Ability to cast both divine and arcane spells.

So it would fly, after all; interesting.

[Morph Bark]

Even if Dragon material would not be allowed, there's also Southern Magician from a Forgotten Realms book, IIRC. Or you can pull off Precocious Apprentice + Sanctum Spell shenanigans with the Bard.

[ecw1701]

Thanks for that with the Southern Magician. My DM is pretty lax, and the group is cool; we tend to police ourselves. Honestly he'd probably let me play Pun-Pun if I wanted to, and either 1. break the game and start over with non-dumb characters, or 2. attack us with a group of 10 pun-puns.

I would like you guy's opinions, though: I guess the question is if lvl 9 arcane casting is worth what you give up in Planar Shepherd 6-10? Since the build Ur-Priest proposed Bard 1/Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 5/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Hierophant 8 would only net a loss of two Druid levels to gain all the arcane tomfoolery.

And I think it would fit the concept to be a bit weak at first, and suddenly pull out something magnificent. Put not to the point of (unwittingly) pursue a build that's terribad.

[Urpriest]

The big downside to doing things that way is losing Outsider Wild Shape. It's up to you whether it's worth Arcane 9ths...and if you can get Arcane 9ths via Wild Shape anyway, then it's definitely not worth it. Though keep in mind that depending on starting level you might just be able to do everything you want with Shapechange anyway.

[ecw1701]

The big downside to doing things that way is losing Outsider Wild Shape. It's up to you whether it's worth Arcane 9ths...and if you can get Arcane 9ths via Wild Shape anyway, then it's definitely not worth it. Though keep in mind that depending on starting level you might just be able to do everything you want with Shapechange anyway.

Starting at level 1, non-gestalt. Gotta climb that hill.
It certainly will be simpler with Druid 5/ PS 10 / Druid 5. Probably with Dal'Quor with dream versions of the monsters, unless there is another flowing time plane.

Part of my original idea was Bard 1/Druid 5/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Hierophant 8/Planar Shepherd 5 (Or any build that finished with PS 5) so I could *create* the plane I was attuned to, but I think creating a plane doesn't allow you to put creatures into it for wild shaping purposes.

[ecw1701]

Update: I decided to split the difference.
I'd already selected Bard 1, so now I'll go Druid 5 and see what makes sense when I get there.

Thank you all again for your help!