3.5 Mystic Theurge question

[Zanthy1]

My DM has a houserule that allows the bonus spells allotted from high stats count towards spells for day even if you cannot normally cast a spell of that level. For example, a lvl 1 Wizard with a high enough intelligence to gain 1 bonus lvl 9 spell could, in theory, cast a lvl 9 spell. He also allows it to track to other classes, for metamagic purposes. He only allows wizards to cast higher levels using this, but any spell caster gains the extra metamagic slot.

Is this a house rule, or an actual thing? Because I played with another DM and he allowed the same thing, but I am not sure if its just a coincidence or not.

Using this rule, I made a mystic theurge. He started with 2 levels in cleric and 1 in wizard, with a 16 in Int and Wis. This grants him bonus spells (1 each for levels 1, 2, and 3). Then my 4th level was in mystic theurge (waited that long becuase of the skill rank requirement).

I explained to my DM that though I find this really cool, I am not sure how literal it is.

How do you feel about this, and what tips would you have for playing it?

[Urpriest]

It's a houserule, and a stupendously bad one. The wizards-only limit is especially bizarre, but the whole thing is somewhere in between misunderstanding and outright munchkinly intentional ignorance of the way the game works.

The whole point of spell levels is to restrict the level at which characters can access a given spell. Under this system, every Wizard should start the game able to cast at least one 3rd level spell every day, and possibly 4th (or 5th for a race with an Int bonus). There's really no possible way you can look at the class tables and infer that that was intended.

[Karnith]

My DM has a houserule that allows the bonus spells allotted from high stats count towards spells for day even if you cannot normally cast a spell of that level. For example, a lvl 1 Wizard with a high enough intelligence to gain 1 bonus lvl 9 spell could, in theory, cast a lvl 9 spell. He also allows it to track to other classes, for metamagic purposes. He only allows wizards to cast higher levels using this, but any spell caster gains the extra metamagic slot.

Is this a house rule, or an actual thing? Because I played with another DM and he allowed the same thing, but I am not sure if its just a coincidence or not.
That is most definitely a house rule. The SRD has this to say (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilitiesAndSpellcasters) about bonus spell slots from high ability scores:
In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level.

Using this rule, I made a mystic theurge. He started with 2 levels in cleric and 1 in wizard, with a 16 in Int and Wis. This grants him bonus spells (1 each for levels 1, 2, and 3). Then my 4th level was in mystic theurge (waited that long becuase of the skill rank requirement).

I explained to my DM that though I find this really cool, I am not sure how literal it is.

How do you feel about this, and what tips would you have for playing it?
This is extremely strong, for one; the game was balanced assuming that parties only have access to level-appropriate spells, and giving characters higher-level spell slots can easily make encounters trivial. I would never allow this in one of my games. Under these rules, wizards will also be the most powerful class by far if played remotely competently.

If you are going to play the game this way, you should sink as much money as your DM will let you into buying Intelligence-boosting items, so that you can get more higher-level spell slots. Pearls of Power and such will be even more useful for you than they usually are (and they're pretty good to start with). Be careful when you select your spells to make sure that they aren't caster-level dependent, since your caster level will be much lower than intended when the writers put the spells together. Spells like Enervation (if you get early access to 4th-level Wizard spells, which ought to be a priority) can be backbreaking for low-level encounters. Your spell save DCs will be higher than they ought to be for level-appropriate encounters, because you're using higher-level spells, so your save-or-dies will also be better than expected for your level. Since you're a theurge and get bonus spell slots in both classes, metamagic feats are a good option. Otherwise, just follow standard advice from wizard guides/handbooks in terms of what spells you want.

[herrhauptmann]

House rule. And yeah, a bad one. Don't even need early entry tricks to get into casting prc's quickly.
If you're doing prc entry prereqs like that, warriors should get to count str towards bab. Like letting a level 3 dwarf fighter with 18 str get into dwarven defender if he wasted his feats on those horrible prereqs.
And if a prc or feat has a skill prereq, should get the stat bonus to apply to it, and skill synergies, not just skill ranks.

[Zanthy1]

It's a houserule, and a stupendously bad one. The wizards-only limit is especially bizarre, but the whole thing is somewhere in between misunderstanding and outright munchkinly intentional ignorance of the way the game works.

The whole point of spell levels is to restrict the level at which characters can access a given spell. Under this system, every Wizard should start the game able to cast at least one 3rd level spell every day, and possibly 4th (or 5th for a race with an Int bonus). There's really no possible way you can look at the class tables and infer that that was intended.

The reason why he only allows it for wizards is because of how the spellbook works. Technically a spellbook can hold any level spell, provided there is space in it. Writing the spell in, however, is not easy, but once it is in there, you can prepare it providing you have at least 1 slot open.

One reason why he does it is because, aside from me, all the other players know very little about DnD and it makes things a little easier for them to understand. Also he knows that I am not going to abuse the system. For example, I only used it in this case to get to Mystic Theurge a little early, but as a 10th level character, a bonus 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spell are not super broken.

Thank you for your opinions

[Vaz]

There's making it easier for people to understand, and then there's using explicitly different rules. They'll come to used to the rules if they're taught the "rules" way, from when they'd then get experienced enough to house rule otherwise.

Incorporating houserules from the start is a bit screwy. He can always lower encounter difficulty, which prevents you from either dominating or gimping your own abilities.

[Zanthy1]

There's making it easier for people to understand, and then there's using explicitly different rules. They'll come to used to the rules if they're taught the "rules" way, from when they'd then get experienced enough to house rule otherwise.

Incorporating houserules from the start is a bit screwy. He can always lower encounter difficulty, which prevents you from either dominating or gimping your own abilities.

I understand what you are getting at. When I DM, I stick as close to RAW as I can, with minor house rules, if any at all. However it is not my place to change his house rules, I just wanted some introspective ideas. I did explain the replies I received on this, but he said he was not too worried about it.

[herrhauptmann]

For example, I only used it in this case to get to Mystic Theurge a little early, but as a 10th level character, a bonus 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spell are not super broken.

Thank you for your opinions
If the newest players don't get the game, maybe they should play simpler classes, like fighter or rogue. Because now they're going to learn the game under the houserules, then get confused again when they go to a game without that houserule.

Bonus 1st, 2nd, 3rd level spells, as a 10th level character. In your case, Wiz2/Clr2/MT6. So 8th level casting for both cleric and wizard. No, it's not broken in this case. It's at early levels that it's broken.
If you don't abuse the rules, beyond using it for early entry, great.

[chardyks09]

I read on another forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284768)that if you are a mystic theurge and take a PrC that gives you +1 level of existing spellcasting class you could chouse mystic theurge as the existing spellcasting class. can any one confirm this is true. If it is if someware in the rules proves it that would be a big help.

[Skevvix]

I read on another forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284768)that if you are a mystic theurge and take a PrC that gives you +1 level of existing spellcasting class you could chouse mystic theurge as the existing spellcasting class. can any one confirm this is true. If it is if someware in the rules proves it that would be a big help.

This is false. MT does not have casting in and of itself, it only advances casting just as the other Prc would. Any PRC that adds to caster levels only applies that bonus tyo a class that has casting.

[eggynack]

I read on another forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284768)that if you are a mystic theurge and take a PrC that gives you +1 level of existing spellcasting class you could chouse mystic theurge as the existing spellcasting class. can any one confirm this is true. If it is if someware in the rules proves it that would be a big help.
That forum is this forum, and the thread in question explains the fact that it's not possible. You'd generally need something that advances a whole class, like legacy champion or uncanny trickster.

As for the OP, this houserule is taking one of the most powerful classes in the game, and making them a lot more powerful across a decent chunk of levels. Imagine a wizard actually pumping intelligence to the maximum possible level, and it's pretty easy to see the issue. For the sake of argument, how about we use a venerable gray elf wizard at level 4. That puts you at 24 intelligence, right off the bat, and then you just need a +4 intelligence item to hit 9th level spells. A +4 int item can be picked up at around level seven or eight, and you can cut that to five or six if you craft.

This is a slightly extreme case, but you could easily imagine a less extreme case that's still ridiculous. If you toss the character down to just being a first level gray elf, they're tossing out 5th level spells right off the bat. That is utterly ridiculous. Just about every build in the game would be better off dipping a wizard level at first, and pumping intelligence out the wazoo, because they could effectively be a fully powered wizard with fewer slots. It's bad, in other words. Your DM is paying an extraordinarily high price to avoid a little confusion.

[Rebel7284]

This is false. MT does not have casting in and of itself, it only advances casting just as the other Prc would. Any PRC that adds to caster levels only applies that bonus tyo a class that has casting.

Legacy Champion may allow you to do something like this, but that's a special exception due to progressing a CLASS.

[Captnq]

How can you meet the minimum casting requirements? What? He ignores them? I mean, starting wizard gets a 4th level spell. So he casts ice storm, no question. But if he casts fireball, it's 1d6 damage.

Check out my sig and read the spell handbook. Maybe send your DM a copy.

[Chronos]

On the other hand, there's a difference between not getting spells of some level, and getting zero spells of that level. For example, a fourth-level bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm) gets 0 second-level spells per day. This means that, if the bard has a high enough Cha, he'll get a bonus spell, and be able to use it. On the other hand, for the same bard under 3rd-level spells, the table lists "--", meaning that the bard doesn't get any spells of that level at all, bonus or otherwise.

[Vertharrad]

It's a houserule, and a stupendously bad one. The wizards-only limit is especially bizarre, but the whole thing is somewhere in between misunderstanding and outright munchkinly intentional ignorance of the way the game works.

The whole point of spell levels is to restrict the level at which characters can access a given spell. Under this system, every Wizard should start the game able to cast at least one 3rd level spell every day, and possibly 4th (or 5th for a race with an Int bonus). There's really no possible way you can look at the class tables and infer that that was intended.




That is most definitely a house rule. The SRD has this to say (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilitiesAndSpellcasters) about bonus spell slots from high ability scores:

This is extremely strong, for one; the game was balanced assuming that parties only have access to level-appropriate spells, and giving characters higher-level spell slots can easily make encounters trivial. I would never allow this in one of my games. Under these rules, wizards will also be the most powerful class by far if played remotely competently.

If you are going to play the game this way, you should sink as much money as your DM will let you into buying Intelligence-boosting items, so that you can get more higher-level spell slots. Pearls of Power and such will be even more useful for you than they usually are (and they're pretty good to start with). Be careful when you select your spells to make sure that they aren't caster-level dependent, since your caster level will be much lower than intended when the writers put the spells together. Spells like Enervation (if you get early access to 4th-level Wizard spells, which ought to be a priority) can be backbreaking for low-level encounters. Your spell save DCs will be higher than they ought to be for level-appropriate encounters, because you're using higher-level spells, so your save-or-dies will also be better than expected for your level. Since you're a theurge and get bonus spell slots in both classes, metamagic feats are a good option. Otherwise, just follow standard advice from wizard guides/handbooks in terms of what spells you want.

I get up on these boards and say this exact thing using the wording and examples from rules books(Rules Compendium especially) and get told I'm wrong, and yet you guys get up on here to say the same thing and noone tells you your wrong.


The reason why he only allows it for wizards is because of how the spellbook works. Technically a spellbook can hold any level spell, provided there is space in it. Writing the spell in, however, is not easy, but once it is in there, you can prepare it providing you have at least 1 slot open.

One reason why he does it is because, aside from me, all the other players know very little about DnD and it makes things a little easier for them to understand. Also he knows that I am not going to abuse the system. For example, I only used it in this case to get to Mystic Theurge a little early, but as a 10th level character, a bonus 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spell are not super broken.

Thank you for your opinions

Your DM doesn't understand how the spellbook works...listen to Urpriest and Karnith(yes you can possibly copy the spell, but it doesn't give you the ability to prepare or even cast it. This is where we get Generalist Domain elven wizard misunderstandings.). If your going to use a houserule with new players make them understand it is a houserule so they don't get angry and frustrated/flustered when a group that uses the rules tells them thats not how it's done.

[Chronos]

Quoth Vertharrad:

I get up on these boards and say this exact thing using the wording and examples from rules books(Rules Compendium especially) and get told I'm wrong, and yet you guys get up on here to say the same thing and noone tells you your wrong.
You do? Where?

[Vertharrad]

Long enough ago that I'm not going looking for it. Needless to say that even the person who came up with the elven Domain Generalist wizard couldn't even show where specifically the general rule was being subverted. And players kept being told they can cast 9th lvl spells at 1st lvl. I have yet to see how it's possible.

[eggynack]

Long enough ago that I'm not going looking for it. Needless to say that even the person who came up with the elven Domain Generalist wizard couldn't even show where specifically the general rule was being subverted. And players kept being told they can cast 9th lvl spells at 1st lvl. I have yet to see how it's possible.
Domain wizard is different, in that it says that you add the spells to your spells known as soon as you have the capacity to cast them. There is a counterargument, to be sure, but the reason why people disagreed with you before, and aren't disagreeing with other people now, is because the situations are different. In other words, the rule isn't necessarily that you're absolutely limited in your maximum castable spell by the spells prepped table. You're absolutely limited in that way, unless you cheese around it. That's likely what was occurring.

Edit: Also, you should probably avoid bringing your odd baggage into random threads. It is a true thing.

[Vertharrad]

Domain wizard is different, in that it says that you add the spells to your spells known as soon as you have the capacity to cast them. There is a counterargument, to be sure, but the reason why people disagreed with you before, and aren't disagreeing with other people now, is because the situations are different. In other words, the rule isn't necessarily that you're absolutely limited in your maximum castable spell by the spells prepped table. You're absolutely limited in that way, unless you cheese around it. That's likely what was occurring.

Edit: Also, you should probably avoid bringing your odd baggage into random threads. It is a true thing.

No basis for argument...there is no specific mention of bypassing the normal way of getting the capacity to cast those spells ie. apprpriate class level.

[eggynack]

No basis for argument...there is no specific mention of bypassing the normal way of getting the capacity to cast those spells ie. apprpriate class level.
You bypass the requirement for appropriate class level by other means, if I'm not mistaken. Something involving heighten spell, and some other stuff. It's not just domain wizard, in other words. Domain wizard just gives you the spell known to progress up the chain after you've acquired a spell of that level. It'd be easier to do this arguing if I actually had the specific trickery being discussed in front of me, instead of your vague allusions to it. In any case, when the people you were quoting said stuff, they were talking about the general case, while what you're talking about is a specific exception.