Clean books/authors?

[Varen_Tai]

So with GRRM's Fire and Ice series making waves in print and on HBO, suddenly there are a ton of really sexual fantasy books out there. Frankly, I could do without. I'm interested in people's favorite clean fantasy/sci-fi books and series.

Wheel of Time is about the level I'm looking at - it doesn't pretend like sex doesn't exist, but it's very careful to not be explicit.

Obviously LotR falls into the clean category, but what other suggestions do you guys have? I'm looking to start a new book, and I'd like to avoid any pitfalls. :smallbiggrin: Brandon Sanderson is a good bet all the way around, but who else is safe to read?

[Giggling Ghast]

What new sexual fantasy books are you referring to?

*Gets out pen and paper*

I ask not for myself, but for a friend. :smalltongue:

[Varen_Tai]

What new sexual fantasy books are you referring to?

*Gets out pen and paper

I ask not for myself, but for a friend. :smalltongue:

Well, there's [redacted] and [also redacted]. But especially bad was [SOOOO redacted] - tell your friend to avoid that one at all costs. ;)

[Themrys]

Discworld books by Terry Pratchett. I wouldn't say they're "clean", with Nanny Ogg and similar characters, but they're never explicit.

If it doesn't have to be mainstream fantasy, try Jasper Fforde.

A. Lee Martinez also writes nice books. As I remember, sex is mentioned, but not described in detail. Haven't read all books, though.

Or just read books written for older children.

[Varen_Tai]

Or just read books written for older children.

Sure, I could do that, but Mistborn by Brandon Sanderson wasn't exactly written for older children. Don't get me wrong - The Chronicles of Prydain is one of my fav series ever, but there's plenty of adult fiction that also doesn't cross the line of explicit.

Perhaps I should add that I am trying to avoid explicit as well as innuendo as much as possible...

[Tebryn]

Perhaps I should add that I am trying to avoid explicit as well as innuendo as much as possible...

Well then, no offence, but you're going to have to look at Young Adult fiction if you want the above. May I ask why you have such exacting requirements?

[Kitten Champion]

Assuming you don't want fantasy which simply leaves out sexual or romantic themes altogether, like Narnia.

There's of course, Lord of the Rings. Which frankly is more stirring in its chaste and forlorn romance than most novels can achieve with their determined efforts to describe the ubiquitous sharing of bodily fluids.

A series I've finished recently, the Riyria Revelations by Michael J. Sullivan has an appreciation for what's needed to create the natural progression of a romance over the course of a series. Which is actually quite rare, in my view.

David Gemmell's Drenai series has some earnest depictions of love. In the same tone as everything else in that beautiful series.

R.A. Salvatore's series, in general, tend to go with the suggestion of sexuality over representation. Salvatore falls in the Tolkien school of things, for which I'm kind of glad -- had the Drow been handled by certain other authors I suspect we would have seen their S&M qualities turned Up To Eleven. That would have displeased me.

I'm on the fence with Elizabeth Moon, she certainly puts an effort to keep things non-sexual, but she also puts quite a lot of emphasis on the asexuality of her characters so that it can be tiresome. The Paksenarrion series is pretty pushy in this regard, but it's the same message in all her books really.

David Weber's War God series is fairly tame, it's less conscientious of sex than Moon's, but tends towards promoting cautious chasteness generally. For novels based around the redemption of an Always Chaotic-Evil race, the pseudo-Orcs are remarkably well behaved from the get-go. Not really a qualm, the series certainly has reasons to enjoy it, it's just very idealistic throughout.

Then there are books with gentlemanly characters, like Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos, Patrick Rothfuss' Kingkiller Chronicle, or Larry Correia's Grimnoir series, which tend towards discretion on such subjects.

There are plenty to list, and many ways you can write romance, sex, and sexuality without being too explicit or crude.

[ShadowFireLance]

Earagon, Quite a good book series, Also, Dragons of Starlight by Bryan Davis, Quite a good series as well.

[Kindablue]

Some pre-The Lord of the Rings fantasy that I like:

Jorge Luis Borges mostly wrote poems, but for the most part people only remember him for his weird, mind-bending short stories. His Ficcones describes how a library with all possible books would work, what it would mean to have a perfect memory, how to trap and kill a man in a labyrinth made of words, and knife fights. Lots and lots of knife fights. He wrote in Spanish, though that wasn't his only language. I like Andrew Hurley's translations.

H.P. Lovecraft is the cult favorite. (Borges actually has a story in The Book of Sand very similar to The Dunwich Horror dedicated "to the memory of H.P. Lovecraft") I really like the ones about old white people writing letters to each other, but if you're looking for something a bit more engaging, I'll recommend Herbert West: Re-animator, probably the first zomb-com; the aforementioned The Dunwich Horror, about a backwoods wizard who builds a monster in his barn; and The Shadow Over Innsmouth, which has the most exciting chase scene you'll find this side of a Robert Ludlum book.

Lord Dunsany was probably the first modern fantasy writer. I'll recommend his first two books, The Gods of Pegana and Time and the Gods, which describe the fictional land of Pegana through its peoples' epic myths. He gets kind of... out there in a lot of his other books. Those two are very beautifully written.

G.K. Chesterton was one of the most influential and important writers in history, but I'm only recommending one of his books here, The Man Who Was Thursday, a novel about an undercover policeman infiltrating a group of eccentric, international anarchists and getting close to their boss, an enormous, hairless man who always seems to be reading a bit ahead in the book. It explores the nature of order and chaos, revolution and tradition, in a totally free, fantastic manner where anything can happen, completely ignoring all the things a spy thriller is meant to be. I don't know if it's a fantasy book, but there is definitely no sex in it.

I was originally going to put Kafka on this list too, but the more I thought about it the more it occurred to me that just about every damn one of his stories is about sex, or the repression of sex.

[LaZodiac]

The Death Gate Cycle! It's pretty sweet.

[erikun]

I don't recall any sex or innuendo in the King Raven trilogy, by Stephen Lawhead. I haven't read his other books, though.

[JoshL]

as I usually do, I will recommend Charles de Lint (urban fantasy rather than epic fantasy). He does some young adult novels that are only distinguishable from his adult novels by slightly lighter topics (he does delve into some pretty serious stuff at times). But he's never really explicit.

[kitep]

I'm a fan of the MYTH and M.Y.T.H. books (Robert Aspirin, I believe)

Also like the Xanth books (Piers Anthony)

Both are comedy-fantasy, so fair-warning. Xanth in particular uses a lot of puns.

I also liked the 12 swords books (not comedy)

[Gnoman]

Piers Anthony isn't exactly clean. There's not much explicit in Xanth, but there is a huge amount of innuendo.

[erikun]

Yeah, Piers Anthony is pretty freely sensual. Some of the later Xanth books might not have it, but the divining line is kind of vague and it crops up occasionally in later books as well.

[Kitten Champion]

The thing about Piers Anthony, the sexual maturity expressed in his works isn't terribly adult. A lot of the time I think I'm reading something written by a boy in junior high who's just started noticing the ladies and is obsessed with everything about them, but has no Earthly clue what girls are actually thinking whatsoever.

I find it hard to read, personally.

[oblivion6]

As always, I recomend David Eddings.

[Brother Oni]

As always, I recomend David Eddings.

Depends on the book. I believe there's the odd passage in the Belgariad series that's suggestive, but there's nothing explicit.

I think the Tamuli series has something about the past of one of the companions being a female slave and being sexually abused at the hands of a former master.


Unfortunately I tend to read military history or other series with 'gritty' influences, so are rather frank in their depictions of sex and violence.

About the cleanest thing I can suggest that's vaguely fantasy based is probably Romance of the Three Kingdoms.

[oblivion6]

Depends on the book. I believe there's the odd passage in the Belgariad series that's suggestive, but there's nothing explicit.

I think the Tamuli series has something about the past of one of the companions being a female slave and being sexually abused at the hands of a former master.

Yeah, theres a couple suggestive passages and references, but good luck finding a fantasy novel without those. The OP stated he was fine with it as long as its not really explicit.

I believe you might be referring to Mirtai here. I suppose there is that fact, but the books aren't bad or explicit in any way.

[Brother Oni]

Yeah, theres a couple suggestive passages and references, but good luck finding a fantasy novel without those. The OP stated he was fine with it as long as its not really explicit.

I was erring on the side of caution since I'm not quite sure of the OP's requirements and my tastes run pretty much the polar opposite.

Dredging my memory, there's possibly the Dragonlance series and some of the other D&D/AD&D novels, but it's been about 20 years since I've read them.



I believe you might be referring to Mirtai here. I suppose there is that fact, but the books aren't bad or explicit in any way.

A quick google check indicates that's her. I'll defer to you on the specifics.

[Varen_Tai]

Well then, no offence, but you're going to have to look at Young Adult fiction if you want the above. May I ask why you have such exacting requirements?

I'm happy to look at Young Adult fiction - there's a lot of great stuff there. However, plenty of adult fiction also is plenty clean. The aforementioned Wheel of Time is hardly YA fiction, but successfully avoids GRRM style fantasy porn.

Yes, you can - IMHO, even a little bit of poop in the brownies spoils the whole batch. Good literature does not need to have that stuff in it, and I don't need to read it.


Piers Anthony isn't exactly clean. There's not much explicit in Xanth, but there is a huge amount of innuendo.

Yeah, Piers Anthony is one of those authors I've learned to avoid over the years. I actually enjoyed the first few books of the Incarnations of Immortality series, but was turned off by his need to include those kinds of scenes along the way...


Yeah, theres a couple suggestive passages and references, but good luck finding a fantasy novel without those. The OP stated he was fine with it as long as its not really explicit.

I believe you might be referring to Mirtai here. I suppose there is that fact, but the books aren't bad or explicit in any way.

Eddings is pretty tasteful, for the most part. I read the Belgariad (and the Mallorean) a looong time ago, but I am more interested in stuff I've not read rather than rereading stuff I've already gone through. DragonLance and Drizz't novels fall into the "already read" category (as does Death Gate).

These are some great suggestions so far! Any more?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

What about the Redwall series? It's Young Adult, to be sure, but still very solid and awesome.

[oblivion6]

Eddings is pretty tasteful, for the most part. I read the Belgariad (and the Mallorean) a looong time ago, but I am more interested in stuff I've not read rather than rereading stuff I've already gone through.

I'd like to say the same but sadly it wouldnt be true. I make it a goal to read the entire Belgariad and Mallorean saga atleast once every 6 months. I consider them to be the best books i've ever read.

[snoopy13a]

I don't remember L.E. Modsitt's Recluse novels containing explicit sex scenes, but I haven't read those in about a decade.

I once read a sex scene in a Tom Clancy book. Perhaps the lamest sex scene ever :smalltongue:

[Kitten Champion]

Actually, it might be easier to list the series to avoid based on overt sexuality. Of the stuff actually worth reading I mean.

The Second Apocalypse series or the Bas-Lag saga for instance, are some of the best fantasy out there, but certainly don't shy away from the erotic.

[Gnoman]

I once read a sex scene in a Tom Clancy book. Perhaps the lamest sex scene ever :smalltongue:

The Bear and the Dragon, to be precise.

[The Glyphstone]

The Bear and the Dragon, to be precise.

It's been years since I read TBatD, and I still remember that bit, in a vague sense of knowing something awful sits behind that faded brain-bleach stain.:smallyuk:

[enderlord99]

It's been years since I read TBatD, and I still remember that bit, in a vague sense of knowing something awful sits behind that faded brain-bleach stain.:smallyuk:

...And you claim to be an eldritch horror...:smallamused:

[Traab]

Another good David Weber series is his one and only fantasy as opposed to sci fi series, War God. Its a trilogy, though looking it up, apparently a 4th book in that world was released. Oath of Sword, War Gods Own, and Wind Riders Oath. Now, there are a few times when rape gets mentioned over the course of the three books, but its generally something like when a person is telling their history they mention the abuse. There is one right at the start of the series, but the setup is, its already happened, and the bad guy is enjoying himself beating her to death when the hero shows up and takes out the trash in a fairly effective manner.

Despite the grim start, it has a LOT of humor. It also takes a fairly different view on the normal fantasy races. For example, halflings have horns, and are mainly considered cowardly thieves, barring a single group as an exception, elves are immortal and suicidally depressed about it, dwarves tend to be more mercantile than miners, though they do live underground, and the hradani are a unique race and are the two main characters. The magic system is fairly unique too. I REALLY suggest reading it, as its a great series. And now I have to go out and buy this 4th book so I can enjoy THAT too.

[Tebryn]

Yes, you can - IMHO, even a little bit of poop in the brownies spoils the whole batch. Good literature does not need to have that stuff in it, and I don't need to read it.

This may be a difference in opinion but I think you'll find that some of the most renowned authors in the history of literature haven't shied away from poop jokes or sexual innuendo/flat out sex. Shakespeare comes to mind as does Chaucer. Earnest Hemingway is another that springs to mind.

[Togath]

It's intended as a young adult book series, but the Septimus Heap could be good, as it's very well written.

Another interesting series could be The Immortal Secrets of Nicolas Flamel, it's an urban fantasy, rather then medieval though, so it depends on the sort you like.

[Weezer]

This may be a difference in opinion but I think you'll find that some of the most renowned authors in the history of literature haven't shied away from poop jokes or sexual innuendo/flat out sex. Shakespeare comes to mind as does Chaucer. Earnest Hemingway is another that springs to mind.

I agree wholeheartedly. Sexuality and sex is an incredibly important aspect of human existence and you really can't skip all books that feature it without missing some of the best works ever written. Sure, some books deal with it really badly, and the HBO adaptation of ASoIaF is definitely one of them (with the original definitely crossing the line in some parts especially in every lesbian scene), but that's a problem of execution, not topic.

[oblivion6]

I just got Oath of Swords on my kindle. Sounds interesting. Thanks for mentioning it Traab!

[Traab]

I just got Oath of Swords on my kindle. Sounds interesting. Thanks for mentioning it Traab!

Awesome, let me know how you like it. I always like talking with another fan. I think one of my favorite parts is how he does a good job of standing the cliche racial characteristics of fantasy beings on its head without being stupid about it. So many laxy authors try to be "original" by doing a mirror image of each race and calling it done. If the classic version is peaceful, bang, they are warlike, if they are standoffish and xenophobic BAM, now they love to meet new people. I bet if the race is normally right handed these guys would make them left handed just because.

[Tebryn]

I agree wholeheartedly. Sexuality and sex is an incredibly important aspect of human existence and you really can't skip all books that feature it without missing some of the best works ever written. Sure, some books deal with it really badly, and the HBO adaptation of ASoIaF is definitely one of them (with the original definitely crossing the line in some parts especially in every lesbian scene), but that's a problem of execution, not topic.

To be honest, growing up as a gay man and reading A Song of Ice and Fire was my first experience with homosexuality in Fantasy Literature. Mercedes Lackey was second probably, and I'm still quite fond of her work even if it is a little cliche. It was something that made the books better for me despite how it was executed. It was just enough that someone was trying. I never found, as a seventeen year old boy, that sex in ASoIaF to detract or really add to the book, even the incest. I understood that was just something that was in the book and moved on.

[Brewdude]

Steven Brust, for the most part.
Amber Chronicles by Zelazney.
Glen Cook's Black Company series.
Neil Stephenson, for the most part.

[Serpentine]

Tamora Pierce writes Young Adult fantasy that handles sexual activities but never explicitly.
Tad Williams, maybe? I think there may have been one semi-explicit sex scene in Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, but it may well have been a fade-to-black one. It's been years since I read it, though, so I could be completely wrong.
Stephen King's The Eyes of the Dragon.
The Princess Bride is a really good one.

[Weezer]

To be honest, growing up as a gay man and reading A Song of Ice and Fire was my first experience with homosexuality in literature. It was something that made the books better for me despite how it was executed. It was just enough that someone was trying. I never found, as a seventeen year old boy, that sex in ASoIaF to detract or really add to the book, even the incest. I understood that was just something that was in the book and moved on.

Really? Huh, interesting. To me it seems like I can't help but stumble across lesbian sex scenes obviously aimed at the heterosexual male libido... But also, if that's your only experience with homosexuality in literature, I'd say get reading! Picture of Dorian Grey is a great non-explicit, but so obviously gay that it's no longer homoerotic subtext, it's just plain text, book.

[Tebryn]

Really? Huh, interesting. To me it seems like I can't help but stumble across lesbian sex scenes obviously aimed at the heterosexual male libido... But also, if that's your only experience with homosexuality in literature, I'd say get reading! Picture of Dorian Grey is a great non-explicit, but so obviously gay that it's no longer homoerotic subtext, it's just plain text, book.

It's certainly not my only experience, just one of the first I can remember. :smalltongue: There may well be books I read earlier than that which had homosexual relationships that were at least passingly handled well but I've read a ton of books and to be honest, I don't really remember the ones that didn't stick out to me. A Game of Thrones really hit the right note for me for what ever reason, and it's shaped my feelings on literature and fantasy since reading it even up to today.

I edited my above post, Mercedes Lackey was another writer that I like. I don't count lesbian sex scenes written for young male audiences as positive writing, that may just be me. It's been ten years since I've read the first book of ASoIaF, I've read plenty more books though I've yet to read Picture of Dorian Grey in full.

[Brother Oni]

It's been years since I read TBatD, and I still remember that bit, in a vague sense of knowing something awful sits behind that faded brain-bleach stain.:smallyuk:

Urgh, don't get me started on TBatD. :smallannoyed:

How can you go from writing excellent military fiction in Rainbow 6 to that absolute mess of cultural misunderstanding?
Even leaving aside that, there's a whole bunch of technological errors that he really should have picked up (The Great Firewall for example, not to mention there's maybe 2 'phone booths in the whole of Tiananmen Square, both of which leads to how the hell those students were streaming that video...).

Ooops, nearly set me off again. :smallredface:

[dehro]

David Eddings, Michael Moorcock (despite the name), Ursula LeGuinn, Homer, JRR Tolkien, Eoin Colfer, Terry Pratchett, David Gemmell...

[The Glyphstone]

...And you claim to be an eldritch horror...:smallamused:

So think about how bad it had to be to scar me...:smallbiggrin:

[Avilan the Grey]

I feel like I should help, but I really can't.

I don't read as much as I would like, and since my philosphy is basically the opposite of the OP (I have always enjoyed both innuendo, fanservice and explicit stuff) I have never tried to find "Clean" things.

The only I can remember right now would be Tolkien and maybe Harry Potter.

[Stadge]

G.K. Chesterton was one of the most influential and important writers in history, but I'm only recommending one of his books here, The Man Who Was Thursday, a novel about an undercover policeman infiltrating a group of eccentric, international anarchists and getting close to their boss, an enormous, hairless man who always seems to be reading a bit ahead in the book. It explores the nature of order and chaos, revolution and tradition, in a totally free, fantastic manner where anything can happen, completely ignoring all the things a spy thriller is meant to be. I don't know if it's a fantasy book, but there is definitely no sex in it.

Just thought I'd draw attention to this as it is an utterly fantastic book. I'm also not sure if it counts as fantasy, but it makes a fine read.

Otherwise I would suggest Raymond E. Feist. I could be mistaken but his earliest stuff the Riftwar Saga itself, is clean. Later books aren't quite as clean but aren't too bad in that regard. But if it must be clean then the original three books stand pretty well on their own I'd say.

[Morbis Meh]

Just thought I'd draw attention to this as it is an utterly fantastic book. I'm also not sure if it counts as fantasy, but it makes a fine read.

Otherwise I would suggest Raymond E. Feist. I could be mistaken but his earliest stuff the Riftwar Saga itself, is clean. Later books aren't quite as clean but aren't too bad in that regard. But if it must be clean then the original three books stand pretty well on their own I'd say.

I second the Riftwar Saga, it is fairly PG 13 but his later writings are definitly not...

I am surprised no one has mentioned Terry Brooks and his Shannara Series (there are a lot of them), his Landover Series and Knight of the Word series. The first and last eventually combine but hey he is a good writer and all of it is not overly explicit. There is also a fantastic series written by Mercedes Lackey... can't remeber the name but it basically involves a failed mage binding himself to an oath of chastity (one of the books was called to light a candle and another was When Darkness falls) great stuff I tell ya.

[khoregate]

I have to second David Gemmel for GOOD heroric fantasy im currently rereading the drenai series and if there is a sex scene in his books he generally glosses over it

[Traab]

Just thought I'd draw attention to this as it is an utterly fantastic book. I'm also not sure if it counts as fantasy, but it makes a fine read.

Otherwise I would suggest Raymond E. Feist. I could be mistaken but his earliest stuff the Riftwar Saga itself, is clean. Later books aren't quite as clean but aren't too bad in that regard. But if it must be clean then the original three books stand pretty well on their own I'd say.

Yeah im pretty sure right up to the end of darkness at sethanon, the sex is reduced to something like, "Stay with me?" "Ok" /the next day.

I know there is a bit more sex/nudity starting with the Prince of the Blood and The Kings Buccaneer, but not much, then you reach the serpentwar saga and it starts getting more explicit, though generally not that common. Man this guy has a very VERY long list of books dealing with midkemia. All in a fairly tight timeline.

[Weezer]

It's certainly not my only experience, just one of the first I can remember. :smalltongue: There may well be books I read earlier than that which had homosexual relationships that were at least passingly handled well but I've read a ton of books and to be honest, I don't really remember the ones that didn't stick out to me. A Game of Thrones really hit the right note for me for what ever reason, and it's shaped my feelings on literature and fantasy since reading it even up to today.

I edited my above post, Mercedes Lackey was another writer that I like. I don't count lesbian sex scenes written for young male audiences as positive writing, that may just be me. It's been ten years since I've read the first book of ASoIaF, I've read plenty more books though I've yet to read Picture of Dorian Grey in full.

Whoops, sorry about jumping to conclusions. :smallredface: In that case, ignore my post (besides the Dorian Grey recommendation, that's simply an amazing book)

[Gnoman]

Urgh, don't get me started on TBatD. :smallannoyed:

How can you go from writing excellent military fiction in Rainbow 6 to that absolute mess of cultural misunderstanding?
Even leaving aside that, there's a whole bunch of technological errors that he really should have picked up (The Great Firewall for example, not to mention there's maybe 2 'phone booths in the whole of Tiananmen Square, both of which leads to how the hell those students were streaming that video...).

Ooops, nearly set me off again. :smallredface:

Clancy's never done well with IT-related tech. In two seperate cases "removing a few thousand lines of code" resulted in massive improvements in performance, which is nonsense from a programming perspective. It kind of made sense in Cardinal, where the removed lines were unneeded aim double-checks, but the reprogramming of the SM-2 in that matter makes no sense. Likewise, Chinese text is easily avaliable as a font, there's no need to encode it as "tiny pictures" that would result in the huge transfer times seen in The Bear and the Dragon. Amusingly, right after that massive size inflation, he has the drone feed streamed in real-time to the same computers that were explicitly stated to be using 56k modems.

[Varen_Tai]

This may be a difference in opinion but I think you'll find that some of the most renowned authors in the history of literature haven't shied away from poop jokes or sexual innuendo/flat out sex. Shakespeare comes to mind as does Chaucer. Earnest Hemingway is another that springs to mind.

True, and I will confess that I did not enjoy that part of the Canterbury Tales, nor do I appreciate Shakespeare's need to add unnecessary ribald comments. I'll grant that he was writing for the audience, but innuendo is not like wine - age does not make it better.


I agree wholeheartedly. Sexuality and sex is an incredibly important aspect of human existence and you really can't skip all books that feature it without missing some of the best works ever written. Sure, some books deal with it really badly, and the HBO adaptation of ASoIaF is definitely one of them (with the original definitely crossing the line in some parts especially in every lesbian scene), but that's a problem of execution, not topic.

Who said I was trying to skip it? Have you read Wheel of Time? Plenty of nudity and sex going on, but it was done tastefully without it reading like porn, which is my main beef. I don't need married couple characters to sleep in different beds, but I'd like to be spared detailed explanations of what they are doing in that bed. Discuss just enough so that you know what is happening, but keep it behind the line of titillation, please. GRRM goes out of his way to cross that line every chance he gets, which is why I stopped reading ASoFaI.

So I agree - it's incredibly important, and shouldn't necessarily be ignored (sex would NOT be a good addition to Narnia), but it can be addressed directly without being titillating.

[/soapbox] :smalltongue:


Tad Williams, maybe? I think there may have been one semi-explicit sex scene in Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, but it may well have been a fade-to-black one. It's been years since I read it, though, so I could be completely wrong.

MS&T is one of my favs - you are correct, it was a fade-to-black. Tad got a little more explicit in Otherland, but not horribly so.

I love these suggestions so far! Keep 'em coming. :smallbiggrin:

[Weezer]

Who said I was trying to skip it? Have you read Wheel of Time? Plenty of nudity and sex going on, but it was done tastefully without it reading like porn, which is my main beef. I don't need married couple characters to sleep in different beds, but I'd like to be spared detailed explanations of what they are doing in that bed. Discuss just enough so that you know what is happening, but keep it behind the line of titillation, please. GRRM goes out of his way to cross that line every chance he gets, which is why I stopped reading ASoFaI.


This doesn't jive at all with your earlier statement of:


Perhaps I should add that I am trying to avoid explicit as well as innuendo as much as possible

And yes I have. After book 5 or so it was awful. The more this thread goes on the more I feel our tastes are irreconcilably different (which is not a bad thing, it just is).

[Varen_Tai]

This doesn't jive at all with your earlier statement of:

Sure it does. I just suspect that your definition of innuendo and mine are different - I am talking about full on sexual comments, double entendres, etc, not subtle implications of behavior going on behind the scenes.


And yes I have. After book 5 or so it was awful. The more this thread goes on the more I feel our tastes are irreconcilably different (which is not a bad thing, it just is).

While, yes, it seems our tastes are different, whether you liked WoT was also irrelevant to my comment. Having read as much as you have, you know that Jordan did not shy away from sex, nor were all his characters virtuous, but he did not make his writing titillating. Even when Mat was doing his thing, we never saw even a single GRRM style sex scene. Not a one. And for that, I greatly appreciate the series. :smallsmile:

[Traab]

Sure it does. I just suspect that your definition of innuendo and mine are different - I am talking about full on sexual comments, double entendres, etc, not subtle implications of behavior going on behind the scenes.



While, yes, it seems our tastes are different, whether you liked WoT was also irrelevant to my comment. Having read as much as you have, you know that Jordan did not shy away from sex, nor were all his characters virtuous, but he did not make his writing titillating. Even when Mat was doing his thing, we never saw even a single GRRM style sex scene. Not a one. And for that, I greatly appreciate the series. :smallsmile:

So im guessing things like, "They began making the beast with two backs as howls of pleasure echoed in the room" are not acceptable, while

"As her dress fell to the floor, lord rottingham shut the door gently behind him. The next day..."

is ok? In one the author is describing what happened (crudely at that) and in option two we know whats going to happen and its skipped over.

[Varen_Tai]

So im guessing things like, "They began making the beast with two backs as howls of pleasure echoed in the room" are not acceptable, while

"As her dress fell to the floor, lord rottingham shut the door gently behind him. The next day..."

is ok? In one the author is describing what happened (crudely at that) and in option two we know whats going to happen and its skipped over.

You nailed it quite well! That is precisely what I am talking about.

[Kitten Champion]

Alright, since I just thought of these.

Jonathan Stroud - The Bartimaeus Trilogy. I think this is listed as young adult, but it's simply some of the best fantasy out there period.

Yahtzee Croshaw - Mogworld. In the vein of Terry Pratchett, it's an off-coloured adventure in an crazy MMORPG world with sentient NPCs.

Patricia Mckillip -- The Forgotten Beasts of Eld, Od Magic, Ombria in Shadow, Riddle-Master Trilogy, The Bards of Bone Plain -- she's paints with words, it's really quite exquisite.

Karen Miller -- Kingmaker, Kingbreaker and Rogue Agent series. Her strength is in her characters and their relationships. These are, in my opinion, better than Godspeaker.

Ursula K Le Guin -- Wizards of Earthsea, Annals of the Western Shore... and her works in general. Some people hate her work, but she's one of my favourite authors of any stripe.

Kristen Britain -- Green Rider series. I enjoyed it, it's fast paced and thrilling.

Micheal Moorcock -- Elric series. I haven't read it in a while, but I believe Moorcock is fairly discrete in the sexual aspects of his work.

Diana Wynn Jones -- everything as far as I know. One of the more creative and whimsical story tellers to bless this world.

Alexey Pehov - Chronicles of Siala. A high fantasy D&D world taken from a new viewpoint. It's been one of the better novel series I've read last year.

[VanBuren]

This may be a difference in opinion but I think you'll find that some of the most renowned authors in the history of literature haven't shied away from poop jokes or sexual innuendo/flat out sex. Shakespeare comes to mind as does Chaucer. Earnest Hemingway is another that springs to mind.

Also, toilet humor has a great deal of value in the sense that it's at the very bottom of the ladder of comedy: meaning that you need the least amount of intelligence and cultural understanding.

As you go up the ladder, the jokes get (IMO) funnier, but require greater levels of intellect and cultural context as you go from Physical Mishap--Verbal Wit--Comedy from Character--Comedy of Ideas (which deals with the very core social mores of society).

In all honesty, the Ladder of Comedy is not to say that one type is funnier than the other, but if you're writing for a bunch of peasants and all you have are the higher rungs of the ladder, then you're not very good at what you do.

Also, Louis C.K. deconstructed the fart joke and explained what makes it hilarious, and the season 2 of Louie had the world's greatest fart joke in it's first episode.

[Avilan the Grey]

True, and I will confess that I did not enjoy that part of the Canterbury Tales, nor do I appreciate Shakespeare's need to add unnecessary ribald comments. I'll grant that he was writing for the audience, but innuendo is not like wine - age does not make it better.

They are not unneccesary, they are hilarious. Also... you are right, it is not the age tha makes them better, it is the quality of the jokes. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, I don't think calling the "dirty" parts of Shakespeare's writing "unnecessary" makes you come off in a good way. To say you do not enjoy them is one thing, but to claim he did something wrong for putting them in there to begin with is just wrong.

Edit:
As I said I feel kind of useless right now because I can't really come up with any titles or authors to help you in your quest. Apart from Tolkien I can only think of children's literature, like the Narnia books or Harry Potter, as I said above.

[Brother Oni]

Amusingly, right after that massive size inflation, he has the drone feed streamed in real-time to the same computers that were explicitly stated to be using 56k modems.

I forget, are modems still available that pick up signals over a telephone receiver like in the film Wargames with Matthew Broderick? As that is what you'd need to get a signal where those laptops were, as wifi was in its infancy and free public wifi was as yet unheard of.

[Melayl]

You nailed it quite well! That is precisely what I am talking about.

As others have suggested, Steven Brust would be what you're looking for then. As would Joel Rosenberg, Christopher Stasheff, and Mercedes Lackey. Probably Jennifer Roberson and Tara K. Harper, as well.

[JediSoth]

I expressly wrote my fantasy series The Foundation of Drak-Anor (http://www.amazon.com/Hans-Cummings/e/B005VEBILK) to NOT do things I saw in ASoIaF. There's hints of things that happen behind closed doors, but nothing explicit.

There's nothing wrong with fantasy door stoppers, but that's not what I want to write (and often, not what I want to read). I write fun, fast-paced fantasy adventure stories, not grim the-world-is-horrible-and-filled-with-horrible-people tomes of Serious Business™.

[Varen_Tai]

Seriously, I don't think calling the "dirty" parts of Shakespeare's writing "unnecessary" makes you come off in a good way. To say you do not enjoy them is one thing, but to claim he did something wrong for putting them in there to begin with is just wrong.

Yeah, you're right. I actually do not begrudge other people the enjoyment of those things, I just don't personally tend to enjoy them. Very often, at least. :smallsmile: I admit that some of Shakespeare's dirty jokes are quite hilarious indeed.

As an addiction counselor, I suppose I work with too many sex and porn addicts to find a lot of enjoyment in those kinds of things since I get to see first hand the kind of devastation that can occur with even seemingly small issues. Very often, stuff that starts small either grows out of control or affects future relationships in crazy unexpected ways.

[/soapbox AGAIN] :smallbiggrin:

Sorry, it's an issue I am quite passionate about...

[Varen_Tai]

I expressly wrote my fantasy series The Foundation of Drak-Anor (http://www.amazon.com/Hans-Cummings/e/B005VEBILK) to NOT do things I saw in ASoIaF. There's hints of things that happen behind closed doors, but nothing explicit.

There's nothing wrong with fantasy door stoppers, but that's not what I want to write (and often, not what I want to read). I write fun, fast-paced fantasy adventure stories, not grim the-world-is-horrible-and-filled-with-horrible-people tomes of Serious Business™.

Thank you for that. I'll stick your series at the top of my list. Anyone who is a fan of Alton Brown AND writes clean fantasy is a friend of mine! :smallbiggrin:

[Avilan the Grey]

As an addiction counselor, I suppose I work with too many sex and porn addicts to find a lot of enjoyment in those kinds of things since I get to see first hand the kind of devastation that can occur with even seemingly small issues. Very often, stuff that starts small either grows out of control or affects future relationships in crazy unexpected ways.

[/soapbox AGAIN] :smallbiggrin:

Sorry, it's an issue I am quite passionate about...

But that goes for everything. The risk, statistically, for becoming a porn addict is no higher than to become one to World Of Warcraft. Although I admit that porn now is free and easily accessible on a scale it has never been before; back when I was a kid I had to shoplift porn mags... :smallredface::smallbiggrin: Anyway, I can see where you are coming from, but you have to remember that the people you treat are a VERY small minority.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I think Varen_Tai is perfectly welcome to his preferences. Let's keep this thread a recommendations thread, instead of questioning what he wants to read.

[Varen_Tai]

But that goes for everything. The risk, statistically, for becoming a porn addict is no higher than to become an to World Of Warcraft. Although I admit that porn now is free and easily accessible on a scale it has never been before; back when I was a kid I had to shoplift porn mags... :smallredface::smallbiggrin: Anyway, I can see where you are coming from, but you have to remember that the people you treat are a VERY small minority.

As much as I wish you were right (and at the risk of derailing my own darn thread :smallwink:), the science of the brain has shown that porn is the single most addictive substance we have today. Due to the easiness of access and the number of places in the brain that get lit up with porn (not just visual porn, but verbal porn hits all the same buttons, which is why I don't like GRRM), it's actually a flood, not a trickle.

I know people who say, "Nah, I'm not addicted to porn, I just enjoy it every now and again," but to those people I say, "Riiiiight. Try walking away from it for 6 months. Don't look at it, actively avoid anything that is titillating even a tiny bit, so not just straight porn, but also Maxim magazines and anything along those lines. If you can go 6 months and feel no craving, no anger at it not being in your life, then OK, I'll accept that you may not be addicted. Odds are? You'll go 2, maaaayyybe 3 weeks before you crash back into it. If you have a lot of self discipline, you'll get 2-3 months, but it's a sure fire way to find out if you are addicted or not. Good luck!"

[/soapbox] Argh. I am really trying to not soapbox, sorry! *sits on hands* :smallbiggrin:

[Avilan the Grey]

As much as I wish you were right (and at the risk of derailing my own darn thread :smallwink:), the science of the brain has shown that porn is the single most addictive substance we have today. Due to the easiness of access and the number of places in the brain that get lit up with porn (not just visual porn, but verbal porn hits all the same buttons, which is why I don't like GRRM), it's actually a flood, not a trickle.

I know people who say, "Nah, I'm not addicted to porn, I just enjoy it every now and again," but to those people I say, "Riiiiight. Try walking away from it for 6 months. Don't look at it, actively avoid anything that is titillating even a tiny bit, so not just straight porn, but also Maxim magazines and anything along those lines. If you can go 6 months and feel no craving, no anger at it not being in your life, then OK, I'll accept that you may not be addicted. Odds are? You'll go 2, maaaayyybe 3 weeks before you crash back into it. If you have a lot of self discipline, you'll get 2-3 months, but it's a sure fire way to find out if you are addicted or not. Good luck!"

[/soapbox] Argh. I am really trying to not soapbox, sorry! *sits on hands* :smallbiggrin:

It is only an addiction if you suffer from it. You are not addicted to porn unless in impacts negatively on important aspects of your life, like your relationships, job or sleep.

On top of that the criteria you set up above is a strawman. The level you suggests indicating "addiction" is comparable to the "addiction" you feel for say coffee. You are basically saying that a person is addicted to porn if he or she looks at the attractive person behind the counter at WalMart.

Also, not to slide into "too much information" but most people don't need porn, it's an AID, not a requirement... Imagination (and a closed door) is your friend...

[/Soapboxing right back at you].

[Varen_Tai]

It is only an addiction if you suffer from it. You are not addicted to porn unless in impacts negatively on important aspects of your life, like your relationships, job or sleep.

On top of that the criteria you set up above is a strawman. The level you suggests indicating "addiction" is comparable to the "addiction" you feel for say coffee. You are basically saying that a person is addicted to porn if he or she looks at the attractive person behind the counter at WalMart.

Also, not to slide into "too much information" but most people don't need porn, it's an AID, not a requirement... Imagination (and a closed door) is your friend...

[/Soapboxing right back at you].

OK, OK, fine, I'll soapbox with ya, but via PM. :smallbiggrin:

[Kindablue]

I know people who say, "Nah, I'm not addicted to porn, I just enjoy it every now and again," but to those people I say, "Riiiiight. Try walking away from it for 6 months. Don't look at it, actively avoid anything that is titillating even a tiny bit, so not just straight porn, but also Maxim magazines and anything along those lines. If you can go 6 months and feel no craving, no anger at it not being in your life, then OK, I'll accept that you may not be addicted. Odds are? You'll go 2, maaaayyybe 3 weeks before you crash back into it. If you have a lot of self discipline, you'll get 2-3 months, but it's a sure fire way to find out if you are addicted or not. Good luck!"

[/soapbox] Argh. I am really trying to not soapbox, sorry! *sits on hands* :smallbiggrin:

I'm terribly addicted to water myself. I've tried, oh have I tried, but never have I gotten over that three-day-hump. :smallfrown:

[Varen_Tai]

I'm terribly addicted to water myself. I've tried, oh have I tried, but never have I gotten over that three-day-hump. :smallfrown:

*snerk*

The difference, of course, is that you die without water, but lack of porn and/or sex will never kill you. :smalltongue:

[Brother Oni]

The difference, of course, is that you die without water, but lack of porn and/or sex will never kill you. :smalltongue:

I beg to differ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_balls).

I've also seen some papers that suggest extended periods of actively being denied release can damage the reflex mechanism involved in ejaculation.

On a more frivolous note, while lack of sex may not kill the individual, it will certainly kill the species. :smalltongue:

[Varen_Tai]

I beg to differ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_balls).

I've also seen some papers that suggest extended periods of actively being denied release can damage the reflex mechanism involved in ejaculation.

On a more frivolous note, while lack of sex may not kill the individual, it will certainly kill the species. :smalltongue:

I am a huge fan of sex and the propagation of the species. :elan: I am just not a fan of detailed sexual encounters in my entertainment.

Granted, there can be issues related to not releasing for males. Fortunately, for most of us who have to go a long time without, we get a natural release, so it's largely a non-issue. A painful non-issue, perhaps, but very rarely an issue of any magnitude whatsoever.

[Gnoman]

I forget, are modems still available that pick up signals over a telephone receiver like in the film Wargames with Matthew Broderick? As that is what you'd need to get a signal where those laptops were, as wifi was in its infancy and free public wifi was as yet unheard of.

The book explicitly states that the laptops in question were hooked in to cell phones for internet, which I'm not certain was possible. The computers I was referring to as using 56k modems were the Chinese government computers in the spy's girlfriend's office.

[Brother Oni]

The book explicitly states that the laptops in question were hooked in to cell phones for internet, which I'm not certain was possible. The computers I was referring to as using 56k modems were the Chinese government computers in the spy's girlfriend's office.

:smallfurious:

I think I'm going to have to hurt something small and defenceless now.

[JediSoth]

Thank you for that. I'll stick your series at the top of my list. Anyone who is a fan of Alton Brown AND writes clean fantasy is a friend of mine! :smallbiggrin:

I appreciate that! Alton Brown is one of my heroes. Whenever I need to know how to cook something, his cookbooks are the first place to which I turn!

[Traab]

:smallfurious:

I think I'm going to have to hurt something small and defenceless now.

Hey wifi has to start somewhere! :smallbiggrin:

[JoshL]

The book explicitly states that the laptops in question were hooked in to cell phones for internet, which I'm not certain was possible. The computers I was referring to as using 56k modems were the Chinese government computers in the spy's girlfriend's office.

Depends on when it was. Here's a handy guide for using a cellphone as a modem in 2006 (http://voices.yahoo.com/cell-phone-as-modem-internet-connection-while-40367.html) from a quick google search. I haven't really followed cell phone tech, but I'm pretty sure this was possible even before this.

All that said, streaming live video over 56k is still pretty silly. Anyone who has used a webcam over dial-up should remember how awful that really was.

[Traab]

Depends on when it was. Here's a handy guide for using a cellphone as a modem in 2006 (http://voices.yahoo.com/cell-phone-as-modem-internet-connection-while-40367.html) from a quick google search. I haven't really followed cell phone tech, but I'm pretty sure this was possible even before this.

All that said, streaming live video over 56k is still pretty silly. Anyone who has used a webcam over dial-up should remember how awful that really was.

Hell, I remember using dialup just to load message board screens. It could take a minute or longer depending on images. Of course, that was WAY back in pre pentium days. I cant even imagine how much web cams would have sucked. Like 10 frames a minute maybe? :p

[Varen_Tai]

I appreciate that! Alton Brown is one of my heroes. Whenever I need to know how to cook something, his cookbooks are the first place to which I turn!

His Thanksgiving Turkey recipe is The Best. I use it every year. Plus, WaffleMan was pure genius. Good Eats is what turned me on to cooking!

[Brother Oni]

Depends on when it was. Here's a handy guide for using a cellphone as a modem in 2006 (http://voices.yahoo.com/cell-phone-as-modem-internet-connection-while-40367.html) from a quick google search. I haven't really followed cell phone tech, but I'm pretty sure this was possible even before this.

All that said, streaming live video over 56k is still pretty silly. Anyone who has used a webcam over dial-up should remember how awful that really was.


The Bear and the Dragon was published in 2000. Reading up on mobile broadband modems this would mean it was on the 2G technology which had speeds of 30-50k.

Leaving aside the expense and availability of both laptops and internet capable mobiles in China, the author also assumed that the PRC didn't have virtual control over network providers (let alone providers that allowed internet access) and the PRC's other censorship mechanisms were ineffective.

Also the streaming video wasn't over the 56K modems, it was over the cell phones into laptops.

[Gnoman]

It was both, actually. The spy's girlfriend's boss watches it just before the students storm the government offices.

[Themrys]

Yeah, you're right. I actually do not begrudge other people the enjoyment of those things, I just don't personally tend to enjoy them. Very often, at least. :smallsmile: I admit that some of Shakespeare's dirty jokes are quite hilarious indeed.

As an addiction counselor, I suppose I work with too many sex and porn addicts to find a lot of enjoyment in those kinds of things since I get to see first hand the kind of devastation that can occur with even seemingly small issues. Very often, stuff that starts small either grows out of control or affects future relationships in crazy unexpected ways.

[/soapbox AGAIN] :smallbiggrin:

Sorry, it's an issue I am quite passionate about...

I am not sure whether Shakespeare's dirty jokes count as porn. They're intended to be funny, not...something else. At least the ones I remember from reading "Romeo and Juliet" (I admit I was surprised at how dirty that was... as non-native speaker I might have missed half of the dirty jokes, and it still was dirty.)

Do you like Elan from OotS, or is he already too dirty for your likes? There are a lot of double entendres when he's involved, after all.

If you don't want to read women portrayed as objects, then don't read the Kingkiller Chronicle. Not the second book, at least. The protagonist thinks he respects women, but he doesn't. Most female characters are just there to emphasize how great and sexy and gentlemanlike the protagonist is. It is quite annoying. (The writing is not titillating to me, but I'm a heterosexual woman so I am not quite sure how heterosexual men view the descriptions of female bodies.)


I would like to read your soapboxing. Your argumentation is quite interesting. (I know the feminist point of view, yours seems to be somewhat different)

[Frathe]

I don't remember L.E. Modsitt's Recluse novels containing explicit sex scenes, but I haven't read those in about a decade.

No, The Death of Chaos has a sex scene. If you really want to be careful about avoiding sex, sticking to either old (pre-Tolkien), young-adult, or light (as opposed to high/serious) fantasy might be your best bet.

Edit: Actually, The Death of Chaos is never explicit. Never mind. The two main characters certainly are.. close, though. I think that's what I was remembering. But the metaphorical camera always leaves right before they get down to it, if that's the kind of thing you're looking for.

[Wardog]

Ironically, the the Conan the Barbarian stories might actually meet your needs.

There's lots of mention of wenches, and lots of implied sex, but it pretty much all goes on "off page", and I don't think there is anything really explicit, or "dirty".

(I've just started re-reading "The Complete Chronicals of Conan", and one thing I'd forgotten about the stories was quite how Lovecraftian they are).

[Brother Oni]

(I've just started re-reading "The Complete Chronicals of Conan", and one thing I'd forgotten about the stories was quite how Lovecraftian they are).

Apparently Howard and Lovecraft were friends, so it wouldn't be surprising if some elements of the Lovecraft horror/mythos crept into the original Conan.

[Traab]

Apparently Howard and Lovecraft were friends, so it wouldn't be surprising if some elements of the Lovecraft horror/mythos crept into the original Conan.

"Dude, Howard, that big boss doesnt have NEARLY enough tentacles on it."

[Brother Oni]

"Dude, Howard, that big boss doesnt have NEARLY enough tentacles on it."

If it were Lovecraft, the twist would be that Conan's faithful companion for this adventure was mixed race.

[Avilan the Grey]

Apparently Howard and Lovecraft were friends, so it wouldn't be surprising if some elements of the Lovecraft horror/mythos crept into the original Conan.

There is no doubt about it. many of the non-human enemies Conan fights would fit right into Lovecraft.

[Geostationary]

Can't recall if it's been suggested yet, but the Abhorsen Trilogy by Garth Nix is quite good and clean enough for your tastes. Actually, most of Nix's writing probably works, as he's also written The Keys to the Kingdom, Shade's Children, and several other books that fit what you're looking for.

Scott Westerfeld is also another good author to look into, though he also primarily writes YA fiction. His Uglies series and Leviathan are pretty good, and I enjoyed Midnighters.

[Wardog]

There is no doubt about it. many of the non-human enemies Conan fights would fit right into Lovecraft.

It's not just the creatures themselves - it's the way they are described.


They hated me, but they feared me, for I controlled beings from outside which came at my call and did my bidding. By Set, mine enemy knew not the hour when he might awake at midnight to feel the taloned fingers of some nameless horror at his throat! I did dark and terrible magic with the Serpent Ring of Set, which I found in a nighted tomb a league beneath the earth, forgotten before the first man crawled out of the slimy sea.
- Thoh-Amom describes his powers, in The Phoenix on the Sword


Conan felt his soul shrivel and begin to be drawn out of his body, to drown in the yellow wells of cosmic horror which glimmered spectrally in the formless chaos that was growing about him and engulfing all life and sanity. Those eyes grew and became gigantic, and in them the Cimmerian glimpsed the reality of all the abysmal and blasphemous horrors that lurk in the outer darkness of formless voids and nighted gulfs.
- Conan's encounter with one of Thoth's summons.

Although at least Howard generally avoids Lovecraft's obsession with italics.

[Velaryon]

It's been a year or two since I've read them and I haven't gotten to the latest book yet, but I believe Naomi Novik's Temeraire series is pretty clean with regard to sex and so on.

[Killer Angel]

Sure it does. I just suspect that your definition of innuendo and mine are different - I am talking about full on sexual comments, double entendres, etc, not subtle implications of behavior going on behind the scenes.

IN this case, you should consider:
Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser series (Fritz Leiber)
The Dying Earth series (Jack Vance)


Conan the barbarian has already been mentioned.

[Kindablue]

Ironically, the the Conan the Barbarian stories might actually meet your needs.

There's lots of mention of wenches, and lots of implied sex, but it pretty much all goes on "off page", and I don't think there is anything really explicit, or "dirty".

(I've just started re-reading "The Complete Chronicals of Conan", and one thing I'd forgotten about the stories was quite how Lovecraftian they are).

Yasala made no reply. She crouched, watching her captor with eyes baleful as those of a basilisk. Stubborn silence always fans anger. Valeria turned and tore a handful of cords from a near-by hanging.

"You sulky slut!" she said between her teeth. "I'm going to strip you stark naked and tie you across that couch and whip you until you tell me what you were doing here, and who sent you!"
--Red Nails. Plenty of, um, material for the young Weird Tales fan. I actually like that one. It's pretty Lovecraft, too, but more in the sense of civilization falling apart than in the sense of contact with the incomprehensible other. Also in the sense that it's racist.

Lovecraft and Howard never met, but they wrote each other enough that the highly edited two volume set of their correspondence that was published a few years ago is longer than The Complete Chronicles of Conan and just a hundred pages shorter than the eleven hundred page long Complete Fiction of H.P. Lovecraft. Lovecraft by himself was having regular correspondence with about a hundred people when he died. Guy would've loved Twitter, I'm sure...

[Man on Fire]

Why every time I go only for a moment I find a thread that I cannot resist making quick post to? Well, anyway...

Guy G. Kay Fionavar Tapestry - While characters have sex it's never described and usually has some plot purpose, very Tolkien and very into elements of mythologies that inspired him, so sex is mostly related to Celtic themes (I'm looking at you, second book). I don't know about Kay's other books, apparently there he sometimes shows his feelings for BDSM and cheating wives.
Peter S. Beagle's The Last Unicorn - completely clean. The Innkeeper's Song has one, very plot important sex scene that is kinda strange, but it's still plot, not fetishes

Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions and Broken Sword - While characters have sex, it's never really the focus, just offhand mentions. Some attention is drawn to attractivness of love interest characters and there is one plot-important thing in "Sword" that leads to tragedy. There is much mroe sexual themes in "Sword" than "Three Hearts..." through and tis book is really dark (and it's older than Earthsea)

Glen Cook's The Black Company - While there is some sex, rarerly it's shown (I can think of maybe one example) and even less beign described, because of Cook's style (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeigeProse).



Piers Anthony isn't exactly clean. There's not much explicit in Xanth, but there is a huge amount of innuendo.

Accidentially grouping female centaur's breasts and withnessing unicorn and griphon hainvg sex is now innuendo?

[Serpentine]

I thought it was The Black Company that had a long, brutal (plot-relevant) mass rape scene. May well be thinking of something else, though.

[Gnoman]

Accidentially grouping female centaur's breasts and withnessing unicorn and griphon hainvg sex is now innuendo?

I said "There's not much", not "There nothing".

[Varen_Tai]

SUPAH LONG POST AHEAD!

Sorry I've not replied earlier, but I've had three things hit me in this order -

1) slipped on some blueberries (they must have released a Grease spell) at Costco and fractured my right wrist, making all typing crazy laboriously slow

2) left town on Sunday to teach a seminar, and I don't have any web access at the office

3) came down with a serious flu and spent the past three nights feverish and sore throaty

:smallannoyed:

Anyhoo, I am still reading, and yes, Themrys, I'd be happy to soapbox as I have time to type up these posts all slow and laborious like. :smallsmile:

In the meantime, Avilan the Grey said he didn't mind if I posted up our PM conversation, so here's where our soapboxing took us right up until Friday when that darn Grease spell took me down.

Me:

OK, OK, I can see we both like to soapbox, but I think we should keep it out of the thread. Sound good?

A note - although I am passionate about this subject, at the same time, I bear no animosity to those that disagree with me. I quite enjoy a good debate, since I often learn stuff I had never heard before.


It is only an addiction if you suffer from it. You are not addicted to porn unless in impacts negatively on important aspects of your life, like your relationships, job or sleep.

So I'm only in slavery if I feel it impacts me negatively? If I am totally happy being a slave, I'm not really a slave?

Addiction chains our behavior in ways that we don't even recognize until we try to shake them off. Thus my challenge...


The level you suggests indicating "addiction" is comparable to the "addiction" you feel for say coffee.

You are completely correct. Coffee is addictive. Not as addictive as porn, but still addictive.


You are basically saying that a person is addicted to porn if he or she looks at the attractive person behind the counter at WalMart.

Actually, I'm not. Acting out means that I actively seek out titillating images and experiences. Passively enjoying looking at an attractive person isn't quite the same thing, though when digging into the guts of an addiction, this has to be given up as well in order to truly clear out a porn addiction, else you're keeping the seeds of addiction alive in your own heart.

Ready, set, go!

AvTheGr:



It is only an addiction if you suffer from it. You are not addicted to porn unless in impacts negatively on important aspects of your life, like your relationships, job or sleep.
So I'm only in slavery if I feel it impacts me negatively? If I am totally happy being a slave, I'm not really a slave?

Addiction chains our behavior in ways that we don't even recognize until we try to shake them off. Thus my challenge...


The level you suggests indicating "addiction" is comparable to the "addiction" you feel for say coffee.
You are completely correct. Coffee is addictive. Not as addictive as porn, but still addictive.

No, what I am saying is that you AREN'T a slave unless it does negatively impact your life. This is why this is actually the usual definition of whether or not you are addicted to something.

(Yes, from a strict medical point of view addiction is purely a physical trigger, but when it comes to therapy and treatment, the consensus is that the definition is this one: You are addicted if it interfere with other aspects of your life in a negative way).

Your definition just doesn't make sense. If I don't suffer from it, it is not a problem. On top of this, unlike say alcohol or McDonalds, it does not do PHYSICAL damage to my body. So the ONLY criteria is if it causes problems for me in my life.

There is a reason why Use and Abuse are separate words in the English language after all.

As for the "test" you posted: I believe I can pass it without problem, as long as I am allowed to masturbate during the period. After all, that is what it boils down to. That's what the frustration really s about. Porn is an aid, as I said.

Me:


No, what I am saying is that you AREN'T a slave unless it does negatively impact your life. This is why this is actually the usual definition of whether or not you are addicted to something.

You are assuming that the damage must be noticeable to me in the moment. Every addict I deal with admits they were addicted even when they thought they weren't because the damage they were doing to themselves was invisible to them. It wasn't until the damage built up to a certain level that it hit their conscious radar.

Imagine all my nerves are dead and numb. If I cut myself, I don't feel it. Or perhaps more analogous, internal bleeding is damaging, but is completely invisible until the damage reaches a boiling point.

So, no. I disagree with your assessment. Every addict I work with, without exception, would disagree with your assessment. Every addict coming out of addiction knows the first step is admitting you have a problem, because being blind to the problem does not magically make it not a problem.


Your definition just doesn't make sense. If I don't suffer from it, it is not a problem. On top of this, unlike say alcohol or McDonalds, it does not do PHYSICAL damage to my body. So the ONLY criteria is if it causes problems for me in my life.
There is a reason why Use and Abuse are separate words in the English language after all.

But it DOES do physical damage to the body. Research has shown that porn is a drug, except it's one that you create within yourself. All kinds of horrible things happen to the brain when one spends a lot of time in porn.


As for the "test" you posted: I believe I can pass it without problem, as long as I am allowed to masturbate during the period. After all, that is what it boils down to. That's what the frustration really s about. Porn is an aid, as I said.

That is an interesting point. Most of my addicts look at porn and masturbate both, however many of them have discovered that both are independent (though related) addictions. One can steer free of porn while still being addicted to masturbating, or vice versa.

So if you are focused on masturbation being the end goal, then I would add removing masturbation to the challenge. If you cannot go long without doing that, you are addicted to it, and you didn't even know it.

Sex isn't food. It isn't air. It isn't shelter. People can live and die having no sexual relations and still be very happy and fulfilled. If you (not YOU you, but people in general) cannot stay away from it, there's a problem.

AvTheGr:


That is an interesting point. Most of my addicts look at porn and masturbate both, however many of them have discovered that both are independent (though related) addictions. One can steer free of porn while still being addicted to masturbating, or vice versa.

So if you are focused on masturbation being the end goal, then I would add removing masturbation to the challenge. If you cannot go long without doing that, you are addicted to it, and you didn't even know it.

Sex isn't food. It isn't air. It isn't shelter. People can live and die having no sexual relations and still be very happy and fulfilled. If you (not YOU you, but people in general) cannot stay away from it, there's a problem.

This is definitely a no-no for me. There is enough stigma attached to sexuality (and especially masturbation, even though that is mostly for women unfortunately) to even consider agreeing with, or to, this.

I still, to begin with, disagree with your assessments of what constitutes an addiction, and especially when it comes to porn or sex. And the "damages" done by it.

Second, I find that this is a contested field on many levels, especially since porn addiction is not a recognized form of addiction in America.

Anyway, that aside, I would say that people who can go through life without any kind of sexual gratification suffer from asexuality. This is not a normal condition. It is a condition that doesn't hurt them, but they are not the norm, hence they are not, per definition, normal.



If you cannot go long without doing that, you are addicted to it, and you didn't even know it.

Sex isn't food. It isn't air. It isn't shelter. People can live and die having no sexual relations and still be very happy and fulfilled. If you (not YOU you, but people in general) cannot stay away from it, there's a problem.

You are very very wrong. Both from a biologial standpoint; the urge to mate is one of the strongest instincts we have. It is right up there with gathering food, or sleep. Without it we wouldn't be here.

Also, a person that don't stay away from sex (masturbation or otherwise) is not addicted. It's as simple as that.

To be frank, it seems you are confusing factual arguments and arguments based in morality, which are completely irrelevant to this discussion. There is no reason to not masturbate. None.

In fact, there are way too many people in this world that thinks, for god knows what reason, that masturbation is "bad" or "dirty" or "a sin". These people NEED to learn that masturbation is natural, and a perfect way to work out stress as well as (of course) sexual tension.

-------------------

I haven't replied yet, but I will mention that I haven't used the word "morality" yet. I am referring purely to how the brain reacts biologically to the stimulii of masturbation and porn, which is significantly different from how it reacts to more normal sexual stimulii. It does the exact same thing that it does with other substance abuse, except even worse. I don't have access to my books and research here at the hotel, but when I get home, I may scan in a couple of diagrams showing the brain chemistry of it all.

[Kindablue]

A metric, let's say. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzm2MCg5HfU&t=1m35s)

[Varen_Tai]

A metric, let's say. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzm2MCg5HfU&t=1m35s)

I lasted about 20 seconds before turning it off. :smallsmile: Waaaay too much profanity and explicitness for me.

[Serpentine]

Masturbation is a normal sexual stimulus.

And that is all I'll say on the subject here, cuz it's both not relevant to the thread and probably not really... if not allowed, then not encouraged by the rules.

[Tremayne7]

I have to say that I am reading a book right now that just came out call "Six Gun Tarot" by R. S. Belcher. You can't really describe it as it's like well... westerns, meets Lovecraft, meets World of Darkness, meets well... I could go on.

Really good read and I'm having a blast.

[The Glyphstone]

It's been a year or two since I've read them and I haven't gotten to the latest book yet, but I believe Naomi Novik's Temeraire series is pretty clean with regard to sex and so on.

It is mostly implied/glossed-over, though she sneaks in some very well-hidden dirty stuff once in a while.


Also, Porn Addiction is probably not an Appropriate Topic to continue discussing. Cough cough cough.

[Das Platyvark]

Abstinence is not a virtue. It is not a sin. It just is, like every other view of human sexuality.

I'm perfectly respecting of the desire to read something with less sexual content than shows up in modern literature; I just don't think that you should rationalize your desire to on a moral basis; and if you have to, take a look at your morals. A personal take is fine; wanting to read something less pornographic is wonderful, relaxing, what have you, just please don't pretend it's right, or any more right than any other perspective.

[Hawriel]

I have to say that I am reading a book right now that just came out call "Six Gun Tarot" by R. S. Belcher. You can't really describe it as it's like well... westerns, meets Lovecraft, meets World of Darkness, meets well... I could go on.

Really good read and I'm having a blast.

So Dead Lands.

Dragon Lance by Tracy Hickman and Margret Weis. All of the romance is romantic love. Nothing I would worn a parent about if their 13 year old was reading it.

Pretty much all D&D novels that have romance in them play out like Tolkien, or at the most a PG-13 movie.

Glenn Cook is not so bad. Most of the sex is usually in the set up, fade to black, next day type of stuff. His Garret PI novels are pretty much like this. The character has a big eye for the ladies and he does have sexual relation ships with several women. However the acts are not talked about in detail.

His descriptions of women usually run something like these.

She had all the right parts in all the right places.

She was the kind of girl that would make a man howl.

She really new how to turn on the heat.

The main character never has a relation ship with a women that is not a mutual agreement.

[Traab]

I will tell you this though. if you want good clean books. Never, ever, EEEEEVER, read Anne Bishops Black Jewels trilogy. I mean it, dont do it. You will be scarred forever if you do. My reproductive organs took 6 days to re descend after some of the things that happened in those books. Thats how terrified my body parts were of the sort of things that happened there. Male or female, some really bad sexual stuff happens there. They are great stories and all, but holy hannah montana. I very nearly reenacted this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ8-eiHLg-M) scene irl

[Man on Fire]

I thought it was The Black Company that had a long, brutal (plot-relevant) mass rape scene. May well be thinking of something else, though.

No, it idn't had any of this. There is a rape scene in last book, Soldiers Live, but it looks like this:
One sentence saying it happened.
Few lines about how much Company had improved because soldiers participating in rape were punished and back in the old days these things were happening on daily basis without command giving a s***.

[Math_Mage]

Goddammit, now my To-Read list is getting another fifty or so books on it. Why do you guys have to give so many good ideas >.<

[Varen_Tai]

Abstinence is not a virtue. It is not a sin. It just is, like every other view of human sexuality.

I'm perfectly respecting of the desire to read something with less sexual content than shows up in modern literature; I just don't think that you should rationalize your desire to on a moral basis; and if you have to, take a look at your morals. A personal take is fine; wanting to read something less pornographic is wonderful, relaxing, what have you, just please don't pretend it's right, or any more right than any other perspective.

I admit this post confused me. As I pointed out earlier, I have never used the word "morality" nor have I used the word "abstinence". I was using concrete, real-world experience and research to defend why my tastes run the way they do. I never discussed "right vs wrong", only the damage that can be done to the brain and relationships by certain behaviors.

Sooooooo..... I guess you are free to read whatever you'd like into my comments, but what you say you saw isn't actually there.

I'm just sayin'.


Glenn Cook is not so bad. Most of the sex is usually in the set up, fade to black, next day type of stuff. His Garret PI novels are pretty much like this. The character has a big eye for the ladies and he does have sexual relation ships with several women. However the acts are not talked about in detail.

His descriptions of women usually run something like these.

She had all the right parts in all the right places.

She was the kind of girl that would make a man howl.

She really new how to turn on the heat.

The main character never has a relation ship with a women that is not a mutual agreement.

Yeah, I've read a lot of the Garrett PI books. Funny stuff, but the main character is a bit too bawdy for my tastes, even if the language isn't too explicit. I find I can deal with secondary bawdy characters so long as their tastes don't take up very much screen time, so to speak - it's present as a piece of their character, but isn't dwelled (dwelt? done dwellten?) on too much.

[Weezer]

I admit this post confused me. As I pointed out earlier, I have never used the word "morality" nor have I used the word "abstinence". I was using concrete, real-world experience and research to defend why my tastes run the way they do. I never discussed "right vs wrong", only the damage that can be done to the brain and relationships by certain behaviors.


Do you have any citations (preferably from peer reviewed literature from respectable academic journals) that support your claims? Because I've never heard anything like them before...

[Varen_Tai]

Do you have any citations (preferably from peer reviewed literature from respectable academic journals) that support your claims? Because I've never heard anything like them before...

I do, but all my books are at home and not here at work, besides which The Glyphstone has made it clear this is not a discussion for public consumption.

It'll take me a few days to gather up the info and charts that I have, but anyone who is interested in this info is free to PM me so as to not violate thread appropriateness. I'll be happy to send out what I have via that mode of communication.

[LadyEowyn]

I like Elaine Cunningham's Songs & Swords series; the first two (Elfshadow and Elfsong) are fairly free of sexual content. So is Ursula LeGuin's A Wizard of Earthsea, one of my favourite fantasy novels after Tolkien.

There's the Harry Potter books as well, which I love. Chronicles of Narnia, too, though both series are famous enough that I assume that you're familiar with them. Till We Have Faces by CS Lewis is also excellent clean fantasy/mythology.

With regard to some of the earlier-mentioned references, Mercedes Lackey's books and the Dragonlance ones aren't free of sexual content.

And I support your literary preferences. Goodness sakes, a person would probably get less guff on these forums if they flat-out asked for smut than you do for asking for works that don't include it.

[endoperez]

I would advice against Black Company books and against Fionavar Tapestry.


The Black Company books doesn't go into explicit detail, but it describes some horrible stuff in a nonchalant manner. I wouldn't be surprised is there was, indeed, a plot-relevant mass rape, since IIRC at least one character was introduced as a traumatized victim of rape.

I don't remember how detailed Fionavar Tapestry goes, but again, rape is presented and shown. I remember I really disliked the scene, it was almost enough for me to stop reading the series.

There are so many books out there that are good, and match the expectations perfectly, that there's no need to recommend stuff that's only half-way clean.

[warty goblin]

With regard to some of the earlier-mentioned references, Mercedes Lackey's books and the Dragonlance ones aren't free of sexual content.


In the case of Dragonlance they are however very much of the fade-to-black sort. The first two trilogies in particular never get more risque than one or two references to fur lined underpants, and the occasional 'the next morning' sort of scene. Some of Margaret Weiss' solo stuff is fairly explicit though.

[Logic]

And I support your literary preferences. Goodness sakes, a person would probably get less guff on these forums if they flat-out asked for smut than you do for asking for works that don't include it.

While I personally don't find the need to limit myself like the OP, I have to agree that different strokes for different folks is the rule, not the exception.

As to the original topic, I recall reading The Green Rider and enjoying it, and cannot recall smut of any sort.

[Traab]

I like Elaine Cunningham's Songs & Swords series; the first two (Elfshadow and Elfsong) are fairly free of sexual content. So is Ursula LeGuin's A Wizard of Earthsea, one of my favourite fantasy novels after Tolkien.

There's the Harry Potter books as well, which I love. Chronicles of Narnia, too, though both series are famous enough that I assume that you're familiar with them. Till We Have Faces by CS Lewis is also excellent clean fantasy/mythology.

With regard to some of the earlier-mentioned references, Mercedes Lackey's books and the Dragonlance ones aren't free of sexual content.

And I support your literary preferences. Goodness sakes, a person would probably get less guff on these forums if they flat-out asked for smut than you do for asking for works that don't include it.

True, some Lackey books do have sexual scenes. But for the most part they are fairly minor and many books have none at all. If I had to guess, out of her valdemar series, the Mage Winds trilogy would probably be the most explicit, with a scene or two here and there in each book.

[oblivion6]

Some of Margaret Weiss' solo stuff is fairly explicit though.
You're referring to her Dragonship books specifically? I agree that is quite explicit sometimes.


Fur-lined underpants
I believe that is indeed the worst it gets. That refers to Tika correct?(Sad that I remember that?)

[Avilan the Grey]

And I support your literary preferences. Goodness sakes, a person would probably get less guff on these forums if they flat-out asked for smut than you do for asking for works that don't include it.

From my perspective the problem is not the OP's reading preferences but the claims made later. Enough said about this, though.

[Man on Fire]

The Black Company books doesn't go into explicit detail, but it describes some horrible stuff in a nonchalant manner. I wouldn't be surprised is there was, indeed, a plot-relevant mass rape, since IIRC at least one character was introduced as a traumatized victim of rape.

So? OP isn't scared of such things but wants to avoid when books gets exactly into this stuff Black Company never dwells into.

And there isn't any long, detailed, plot-relevant mass rape scene. Yes, one character was a victim of rape, but that's different pair of shoes.

Closer Black Company gets to sex scene is when two characters try to have concensual sex in Shadow Games, and they stop halfway through.


I don't remember how detailed Fionavar Tapestry goes, but again, rape is presented and shown. I remember I really disliked the scene, it was almost enough for me to stop reading the series.

TO be fair, that scene is presented in such way that it remains rather ambigious at the moment if it is rape - I personally thought it was a torture, until reading the second book which confirmed what it was. It was horryfing and unpleasant, yes, but I wouldn't call it that bad when it comes to detailed sex scenes.

[Varen_Tai]

So while we are on the subject, how's the Dresden Files for cleanliness? Typically, these PI-style books feature a lot of lust on the part of the protagonist PI, and sleeping around with all their female clients and other girls who happen to cross their paths (Glen Cook's Garrett PI being a prime example).

I watched the TV show and enjoyed it - it didn't seem to feature Dresden as being that kind of guy much, but I'm curious as to how the books fare. I believe they are excellently written (too many people have recommended them for me to feel otherwise), but are they clean? Innuendo and sex scenes?

[Serpentine]

I haven't read it, but I watched the show with someone who has, and she said that a running theme of the books was that Dresden never gets laid. Don't know anything more than that, though.

[The Glyphstone]

A good chunk of the humor in DF comes from Harry's inability to pick up women, so a lot less than you'd think. Off the top of my head, I can think of one suggestive bit in the first book involving a misapplied love potion - though it also involves a murderous monster attack, so there are bigger priorities than the nude woman trying to seduce Harry. There's one not-quite-explicit scene around book...5 or so? He finally gets a semi-steady girlfriend in the middle-late third of the series, but aside from one mention of 'crazy monkey sex', it's entirely offscreen and ignored.

Oh, and any time a White Court Vampire is around. They just come with a built-in aura of sexiness, and tend to hang out in places like strip clubs. So avoid books with the White Court featured and you'll be almost squeaky-clean.

[Varen_Tai]

Oh, and any time a White Court Vampire is around. They just come with a built-in aura of sexiness, and tend to hang out in places like strip clubs. So avoid books with the White Court featured and you'll be almost squeaky-clean.

Right, that was the same in the TV series - the vampire episodes were the ones that made my wife and I the most uncomfortable.

Good to know!

[LadyEowyn]

Dresden Files manages to have a fair amount of sexual content despite Harry not getting laid all that often. I wouldn't recommend it as 'clean' fantasy. (Especially not as of Cold Days.)

[Varen_Tai]

OK, I have my first set of research available. Anyone who wants it, PM me.

I DO have more coming. :smallsmile:

[Hawriel]

A good chunk of the humor in DF comes from Harry's inability to pick up women, so a lot less than you'd think. Off the top of my head, I can think of one suggestive bit in the first book involving a misapplied love potion - though it also involves a murderous monster attack, so there are bigger priorities than the nude woman trying to seduce Harry. There's one not-quite-explicit scene around book...5 or so? He finally gets a semi-steady girlfriend in the middle-late third of the series, but aside from one mention of 'crazy monkey sex', it's entirely offscreen and ignored.

Oh, and any time a White Court Vampire is around. They just come with a built-in aura of sexiness, and tend to hang out in places like strip clubs. So avoid books with the White Court featured and you'll be almost squeaky-clean.

Susan was wearing her dress in that scene while harry was wearing a towel. Susan never took her dress off. Harry's towel fell off half way through the fight.

Harry was wearing a towel because he was late getting ready for his date with Susan, or she was early. One of the two. Harry was taking a shower while Susan was waiting for him. The demon attacked, Harry grabbed the towel while rushing out to see what was going on.



Yeah, I've read a lot of the Garrett PI books. Funny stuff, but the main character is a bit too bawdy for my tastes, even if the language isn't too explicit. I find I can deal with secondary bawdy characters so long as their tastes don't take up very much screen time, so to speak - it's present as a piece of their character, but isn't dwelled (dwelt? done dwellten?) on too much.


I can see why he might be considered bawdy. I never thought the author had the character act crude toward females. Garrett is pretty much a guy. he notices a woman, he likes woman, and he has the don't hit girls point of view about woman. Because of the style of the noir detective the reader is in side the characters head. So you are going to get a lot of his thoughts and impressions.

One of the reasons why I recommended the Garrett books was because even though he might think like a guys at times, he does have an emotional investment with the women he sleeps with. Even if he does not want to admit it. Which is part of the joke on Garrett. However sense you read some of the books I'm sure you've seen that. Garrett's eye for the ladies does not limit them to being sex objects. He does see them as people. And will walk away from a romantic possibility because of that. Rose Tate is a good example. Unfortunately I think Cook should have had Garrett show similar restraint with two other characters.

Harry Dresden Also has an eye. He is more toned down Garrett. Most of Harry's thoughts about woman are honest acknowledgement of a persons attractiveness. In some ways it's the authors way to express the woman's inner beauty. Or lack there of.

Some of the woman who are sexually over the top are well either vampires or the Winter Lady. They are empty and hungry predators who only want to sate their desires. These are also used to tempt Harry in various ways. It usually another obstacle he must over come.

There is only one prominent sex scene in the books that I can recall right now. It in no way crude. The scene is not really about sex, it is Harry and his girlfriend finally acknowledging their deeper feelings about each other.

Harry really is not a love them and leave them kind of guy. Sure he might have had a fling in his life here and there. But mostly its got to mean some thing.

Edit.
Oh need to say this for honesty. One of the Dresden books does have him working a case for a pornographic film maker. Harry is the butt of a lot of jokes from his friends because of this. I can understand if you want to skip that particular book, but I think you should think twice on that because it has important character and long term plot development.

[The Glyphstone]

Susan was wearing her dress in that scene while harry was wearing a towel. Susan never took her dress off. Harry's towel fell off half way through the fight.

I guess I need to re-read Storm Front then, I thought I remembered the dress coming off.




Edit.
Oh need to say this for honesty. One of the Dresden books does have him working a case for a pornographic film maker. Harry is the butt of a lot of jokes from his friends because of this. I can understand if you want to skip that particular book, but I think you should think twice on that because it has important character and long term plot development.

Yeah, but that one is also very White-Court-Vampire heavy, so it's a double-whammy dose of uncleanliness.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Dresden Files manages to have a fair amount of sexual content despite Harry not getting laid all that often. I wouldn't recommend it as 'clean' fantasy. (Especially not as of Cold Days.)
Uh, yeah.

I don't know much about the TV version, but Bob is a "pervy old man" spirit, even if his wisecracking is awesome as ever. There's a fair amount of innuendo here and there, and...there were definitely some sex scenes. I'm thinking first of a plot-relevant one in Changes, and then an earlier one which I can't remember where
Harry has at it while Susan is in the grip of her Red Court vampire hunger.

Oh, and not to mention that there's the scene at the end of Ghost Story, and (as mentioned) in Cold Days, there's a particular point made out of the fact that
as the Winter Knight, Harry has a strong and aggressive sexual drive that he has to constantly repress, among other things

Though, I must say that the moment in Summer Knight where
Harry beats his libido (vs. Maeve) with a glass of icewater
and then later in the series where he does the same
when Molly goes all YoSaffBridge on him
was a nice change-up for him.

So....yeah. If you're looking for clean fantasy, Dresden won't be it, although the books are fantastic. (And I don't think that Butcher really goes out of his way to give anything beyond an honest portrayal. The White Court is intentionally skeevy, because that's what they do. It's a nice counterpoint to, say, Twilight.)

[The Glyphstone]

I think you swapped Molly and Maeve in those last two...it was Molly with the glass of icewater.

[Deepbluediver]

So with GRRM's Fire and Ice series making waves in print and on HBO, suddenly there are a ton of really sexual fantasy books out there. Frankly, I could do without. I'm interested in people's favorite clean fantasy/sci-fi books and series.

If you like Fire and Ice (the politics and backstabbing, the low-magic feel, the gritty psuedo/AU-european history, the doorstopper sized books, the violence, etc) EXCEPT for the explicet-ness of the sex scenes, then I would recomend The Crown of Stars series by Kate Elliot.

King's Dragon (1997)
Prince of Dogs (1998)
The Burning Stone (1999)
Child of Flame (2000)
The Gathering Storm (2003)
In the Ruins (Aug 2005)
The Crown of Stars (Feb 2006)

Edit: if you want more details, let me know, but the series gets increasingly complex rather quickly (again, like Fire and Ice) so I need to be careful what I say to avoid spoilers


I can probably recomend other books or series, if you tell me what level of fantasy you are looking for (i.e. children vs. young adult/teenager vs. adult) or what kind of story you like.

[Varen_Tai]

the doorstopper sized books,

I read fast. Really, really fast. I can plow through a normal 300 pg book in very short order, so I love me the epic sized tomes since they keep me occupied for a while.

But yes, please - give me more suggestions since I finished Storm Front in just 1.5 days and it won't take me long to get through the rest of the Dresden Files.

So, after reading Storm Front, I'll say it's more sexually heavy than I prefer, but it doesn't cross the line of being too explicit for me. That being said, I'm still going back to Brandon Sanderson as the best example of modern clean fantasy - he's a fantastic writer and doesn't need to get into that stuff to write a great book. I'm still reeling from how amazing Way of Kings was.

[Deepbluediver]

I read fast. Really, really fast. I can plow through a normal 300 pg book in very short order, so I love me the epic sized tomes since they keep me occupied for a while.

But yes, please - give me more suggestions since I finished Storm Front in just 1.5 days and it won't take me long to get through the rest of the Dresden Files.

So, after reading Storm Front, I'll say it's more sexually heavy than I prefer, but it doesn't cross the line of being too explicit for me. That being said, I'm still going back to Brandon Sanderson as the best example of modern clean fantasy - he's a fantastic writer and doesn't need to get into that stuff to write a great book. I'm still reeling from how amazing Way of Kings was.

Hmm...well, I think some one already mentioned the Abhorsen Trilogy but I want to second that, because it does necromancy in such an detailed and unique way. I will also recomend the Deed of Paksenarrion by Elizabeth Moon. It's 3 books in 1 volume (unless you stumble across an older version), and it should keep you busy for at least a few days. The main heroine is essentially asexual, so no worries there.
The author also has a few other books set in the same world, though I can't vouch for all of them.

Like I said, Crown of Stars was enjoyable, and the whole thing is complete, so no waiting around for the next book for 5 years *cough* *cough* MARTIN *cough*. But is VERY like Fire and Ice in many ways; the sex-scenes are just about the only thing that is tuned down. So, I want to warn you that while it does get...better?...(I'm not sure what word fits) the first few chapters contain some pretty un-fun stuff, and if you decide to give it a try, don't let it turn you off.
If certainly don't think its any worse than Wheel of time in that respect, except for being a bit darker and grittier.


I also wanted to say that I totally understand your aversion to certain styles of writing. One of the reasons that I still read a fair amount of teenager-aimed fantasy and sci-fi is that the writing is easy to get through, isn't overly preachy, and avoids a lot of the gore and smut you get in fantasy that is targeted at adults or older teens.

Biggest pet-peeve: in Hollywood, every alien race is a galaxy-conquering invader out to either steal earth's water or lay it's eggs in your abdomen.
This is still preferable to "adult sci-fi" literature, where 95% of alien races are honorable warriors or techno-philosophers (sometimes both), far more advanced than humans and who seemingly exist only to show humanity how terrible it is. :smallfrown:

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I think you swapped Molly and Maeve in those last two...it was Molly with the glass of icewater.
Not quite. (I can't believe I remember this...)

With Maeve, it was the glass of icewater he'd been offered in Undertown. With Molly, it was the pitcher of icewater that he'd gotten.

<ahem>

Odd trivia aside...

[The Glyphstone]

Not quite. (I can't believe I remember this...)

With Maeve, it was the glass of icewater he'd been offered in Undertown. With Molly, it was the pitcher of icewater that he'd gotten.

<ahem>

Odd trivia aside...

ooooh, right. Double the icewater duty.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

ooooh, right. Double the icewater duty.
I have a bizarre affinity for weird trivial details. Perhaps some wizard will enchant me into a skull or something.

[snoopy13a]

Another "clean" author--Jacqueline Carey. Oh wait . . . :smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

Another "clean" author--Jacqueline Carey. Oh wait . . . :smallbiggrin:

*smacks snoopy with a rolled-up newspaper*

[warty goblin]

Another "clean" author--Jacqueline Carey. Oh wait . . . :smallbiggrin:

I don't recall anything particularly skeevy in Banewreaker, although I guess the central conflict basically came down to the elves getting pissed off about how everybody else was out humping like rabbits and out-breeding them. It never got more explicit than the previous sentence though. Depressingly the plot didn't involve a quest for magical elf Viagra either; that would have provided far fewer opportunities for whining.

Which is to say it may be cleanish, but it should not be read. The characters were so cardboard it's a wonder they didn't ignite around open flame, the plot tedious, and the central theme complete BS. You'd get more out of it as mulch than reading material.

So in other words it's just like one of Carey's other books, but without the promise of horribly written sex scenes keeping things interesting. I spent most of my time with Kushiel's Dart either bored, rolling my eyes or laughing for all the wrong reasons.



In terms of actual recommendations, I'm coming fairly dry for books that don't feature lots of sex, and are actually worth reading. Here's what I've got: Watership Down is always fun, Redwall and sequels are solidly sex-free, although they get rather repetitious after a while. I'm inordinantly fond of The Book of the Dun Cow. Leigh Brackett's Book of Skaith trilogy never gets more explicit than mentioning two people are (enjoyably) sharing a tent, and is also a wonderfully weird and varied planetary fantasy adventure.

[cucchulainnn]

dose it have to be fantasy?

lately i've been reading a lot of historical fiction which fits your requirements, entertaining with out being explicit.

the best of the group is the Matthew Shardlake books by C.J. Sansom. they are mysteries where the main character is a hunchbacked london lawyer during the rein of Henry the VIII. these have gotten high reviews for getting the way the law courts worked at that time. which is just one more plus. a very vivid portrayal of 16th century london.

http://www.goodreads.com/series/49599-matthew-shardlake

then there are the brother cadfael books again mysteries, this time set in 12th century england. cadfael is a monk that is a retired sea captain and crusader.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadfael
http://www.goodreads.com/series/42167-chronicles-of-brother-cadfael

the books i'm currently reading are the plantagenet series by sharon kay penman. the first book is about the session wars between william the conquers grand daughter maud and her cousin stephen. the 2nd which i'm currently reading is about her son Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine. good stuff. you know the two from lion in winter only young :)

http://www.goodreads.com/series/87752-plantagenets

[Varen_Tai]

dose it have to be fantasy?

That's an excellent question! I'm not averse to reading other types of books, but right now, I'm focused on Fantasy/Sci-Fi.

Edit: Heck, Les Mis is one of my favorite books ever. The unabridged 1400 pager, yes.

[Varen_Tai]

OK, some updated questions and comments:

First off, after having read the first three books of Dresden, here's my commentary.

I would not rate Dresden as "clean" since nearly every female character gets some kind of description of their sexiness or is wearing some kind of next-to-nothing type clothing, which then gets some kind of description. Especially the supernatural females. The mortal females Harry runs into often have some kind of "sex kitten" thing going on. Not that all of them do, but enough of them that sex is a major theme in the books.

It's obviously short of GRRM style porn, but it's almost over the line for me. I *am* enjoying the story, but I'm finding it harder to go on through the series as this keeps up.

I figure this could be good indicator of what I consider "clean" or not.

Next, can anyone tell me about the quality and cleanliness of these authors/series?

Septimus Heap
Patricia Briggs
Ranger's Apprentice
Erin Hunt
Chathrand Voyage (Robert V S Redick)
Ted Dekker
Artemis Fowl (and other Eoin Colfer books)
Ross Lawhead
Diana Gabaldon (Outlander)

I found all these available as eBooks through my local library. :) Gonna get through my free offerings before I spend more on permanently increasing my Kindle library. :smallsmile:

[The Glyphstone]

Artemis Fowl is going to be almost entirely squeaky-clean in terms of adult content. If I remember right, the book involving time travel is where Artemis is starting puberty and throws a few hints out, but it's then ignored in the future books again.

Re: Dresden. If you make it that far, skip over book 9 entirely - that's the one where he takes on a case involving porn stars being assassinated via magic, at the behest of the White Court vampires.

[Eldan]

NEvermind.

[Kitten Champion]

Next, can anyone tell me about the quality and cleanliness of these authors/series?

Septimus Heap
Patricia Briggs
Ranger's Apprentice
Erin Hunt
Chathrand Voyage (Robert V S Redick)
Ted Dekker
Artemis Fowl (and other Eoin Colfer books)
Ross Lawhead
Diana Gabaldon (Outlander)

I found all these available as eBooks through my local library. :) Gonna get through my free offerings before I spend more on permanently increasing my Kindle library. :smallsmile:

Septimus Heap is decent, young adult fantasy with nothing particularly objectionable in it.

Patricia Briggs is melodramatic and pretty generic but lacks anything upsetting.

Nothing particular offensive in Ranger's Apprentice, they're just boring and completely lacking in depth.

Erin Hunt writes novels about animals having adventures for young audience, so I hope to hell there's no sex. No idea about the quality.

Haven't read the Chathrand novels.

Dekker doesn't shy away from violence, but not much sex to my knowledge, he's written quite a bit. He's got religious undertones which vex me, but he's fine critically speaking. A matter of taste I guess.

Colfer is alright, he's no Stroud, but there's fun to be had in his works.

Lawhead's Pendragon Cycle was well... okay. He repeats plot-lines over the series, with nothing objectionable of a pornographic variety. He can't write female characters and they quickly become objects, which annoys me.

Don't read Outlander, please just don't. It's neither clean of disturbing sexual material or well written.

[Varen_Tai]

Hey, wow, that was an excellent sum up! Danke!

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Re: Dresden. If you make it that far, skip over book 9 entirely - that's the one where he takes on a case involving porn stars being assassinated via magic, at the behest of the White Court vampires.
Book 6, actually, Blood Rites. (I checked to make sure.) Which, unfortunately, is where you find out a certain important character detail, but ah well.

[oblivion6]

Rangers Apprentice is clean. Good books though.

Artemis Fowl is clean as well. Atleast the first several. I stopped 1-2 books ago.

Might I recommend the Percy Jackson books by Rick Riordan? They're clean and pretty good.

[Varen_Tai]

It's been a while since I've read Discworld but having dipped back into it yesterday and today, it stands as a good example of what I would term "clean". Sex exists and there are a few comments along the way, but it's not front and center with lengthy descriptions.

[The Glyphstone]

Book 6, actually, Blood Rites. (I checked to make sure.) Which, unfortunately, is where you find out a certain important character detail, but ah well.

Right, my bad. I thought it was White Night - that's the other White-Court-centric book, with the horror convention. That one really should not be skipped either, for similar important plot events.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Right, my bad. I thought it was White Night - that's the other White-Court-centric book, with the horror convention. That one really should not be skipped either, for similar important plot events.
Heh, yeeeeeeeeeeah. In some ways, more important.

[warty goblin]

Not as you know a clean author, but George RR Martin's Fevre Dream is pretty much sex-free, IIRC there's one non-explicit and failed seduction attempt and that's it. It's also a seriously excellent bit of writing, and for my money the best he's done. His first novel, Dying of the Light is also pretty clean. There's some weird sexual arrangements going on, but it never gets more explicit than an acknowledgement that there's weird sexual arrangements going on, and like one line referencing a past sexual encounter. Not as good as Fevre Dream, but it's an excellent sort of thing if you're in the mood for some dark and opalescent romance. Both are very different in tone and scale from A Song of Ice and Fire.

[oblivion6]

He writes more than A Song of Ice and Fire? Interesting.

[Hawriel]

He writes more than A Song of Ice and Fire? Interesting.

Wild Cards dude. Granted that series was broken up into short stories by an assortment of authors, yet Martin was a key guy. Not a recommendation for the OP. These are pulp fiction type books and there is a lot of sex, and sexual violence in one form or another. One character gets his super powers by having sex.


Most if not all of the Star Wars and Star Trek novels will fit in with the OP's request. Sure romance gets a little more detailed than in the movies, but it stays in the realm of a moderate PG-13.

A.C. Crispin's Han Solo trilogy

Micheal Stackpole's X-Wing Rogue Squadron series.

Aaron Alston's continuation of the X-Wing series, Wraith Squadron.

Any thing by Timothy Zhan.

As for Star Trek, I have not read many books. Most romantic situations are in line with what you would get with the TV show. After all they have a family friendly image.

I have read the Titan series of books. Will Riker accepts a promotion to captain and commands the USS Titan. A luna class exploration ship. The back ground of the story is that Riker's ship is a multispecial crew. They are not all written by the same author. The first three are entertaining enough. Some are mediocre.

There are a crap ton of star trek novels. Some are based around the klingon empire, Star Fleet Core of Engineers, Original cast, TNG, DS9, new ships and crews not seen in the shows. Even the history of Khan. If you like the trek enough to watch the show from time to time give a novel or two a try.

[warty goblin]

He writes more than A Song of Ice and Fire? Interesting.

Martin's been writing for years. His first novel came out in '77, and he'd been hammering out some really quite good short stories for at least half a decade before that. Honestly some of my favorite work of his is the non-Song of Ice and Fire stuff.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Not as you know a clean author, but George RR Martin's Fevre Dream is pretty much sex-free, IIRC there's one non-explicit and failed seduction attempt and that's it. It's also a seriously excellent bit of writing, and for my money the best he's done. His first novel, Dying of the Light is also pretty clean. There's some weird sexual arrangements going on, but it never gets more explicit than an acknowledgement that there's weird sexual arrangements going on, and like one line referencing a past sexual encounter. Not as good as Fevre Dream, but it's an excellent sort of thing if you're in the mood for some dark and opalescent romance. Both are very different in tone and scale from A Song of Ice and Fire.
Whoa....his book about vampires is pretty much sex-free?

[warty goblin]

Whoa....his book about vampires is pretty much sex-free?

They really aren't the seductive sort of vampire, and they're not being employed as a metaphor for uncontrolled animal sexuality either. What he's doing is a lot more savage than that.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

They really aren't the seductive sort of vampire, and they're not being employed as a metaphor for uncontrolled animal sexuality either. What he's doing is a lot more savage than that.
Intriguing. I must say, when I saw "GRR Martin does vampires" on the book shelf, I gave it a pass for that reason. This is interesting...

[Clertar]

For wuxia, the Crane Iron saga by Wan Dulu is a nice, well-written series of novels

[warty goblin]

Intriguing. I must say, when I saw "GRR Martin does vampires" on the book shelf, I gave it a pass for that reason. This is interesting...

Trust me, by halfway through the book sex will be the last thing you think of when it comes to vampires.

[Deepbluediver]

Trust me, by halfway through the book sex will be the last thing you think of when it comes to vampires.

I'm not sure who, exactly, we have to blame for the "sexy-vampires" trend, but whenever I hear "vampire" the first thing I always think of is Nosferatu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosferatu).

[Weezer]

I'm not sure who, exactly, we have to blame for the "sexy-vampires" trend, but whenever I hear "vampire" the first thing I always think of is Nosferatu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosferatu).

Well it has its roots all the way back to Stoker's Dracula, but I'm not sure when it became essentially the only way they are portrayed.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Well it has its roots all the way back to Stoker's Dracula, but I'm not sure when it became essentially the only way they are portrayed.
Yeah; in some ways, Dracula defined that aspect of vampires. (As opposed to the zombie-esque characterization of them in medieval times.) All I know is that Rice was one of the writers who romanticized it.

[dehro]

there's a "pissed old guy" joke out there that has something to say about "old days vampires" as opposed to the sexy ones... but it's got some profanity so I probably shouldn't post it here... but if you google "pissed old guy" together with vampires, you'll bump into it.