Minmax my Monk

[Santra]

So I was bored and was building a character to play in a friends campaign starting at level 5 when I got the idea for a Barbarian/Monk and called the DM up. He gave the OK on ignoring alignment restrictions (Said he never pays attention to race or alignment restrictions on classes) so I currently have planned Spiritual Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1/Monk 4 but am open to change. I would like this build to be primarily Monk if possible. Any ideas on how to improve it from here?

[Juntao112]

Take the Fist of the Forest prestige class.

Then go into Bear Warrior so you can be a kung-fu panda.

[Santra]

Take the Fist of the Forest prestige class.

Then go into Bear Warrior so you can be a kung-fu panda.

I am liking bear warrior however I am not a fan of fist of the forest having never liked the restrictions it forces on you. Would picking up Extra Rage and Extend Rage be worth it? Is Touch of Golden Ice as good as everyone says it is?

[Urpriest]

I am liking bear warrior however I am not a fan of fist of the forest having never liked the restrictions it forces on you. Would picking up Extra Rage and Extend Rage be worth it? Is Touch of Golden Ice as good as everyone says it is?

Extra Rage is useful, especially if you don't expect to take more levels of Barbarian. Extend Rage isn't: your Rage already should last most combats.

As for Fist of the Forest, remember, your DM is a fan of ignoring alignment restrictions. My guess is he'll let you skip the code of conduct.

[thethird]

Fist of the forest is actually pretty good it (it is one of the best monk prcs).

Touch of Golden Ice is only worth it if you have vow of poverty and for most of the time vow of poverty isn't really helpful in itself.

By being primary monk do you mean having as many monk levels as possible?

Because having more than 2 or depending on the build 3 monk levels is normally not a great idea.

I will probably get another level of barbarian wolf totem is nice.

On some prestige classes that you might want to consider:

- Fist of the forest (complete champion): Con to AC, a big bump on your unarmed strike damage and feral trance.

- Shou Disciple (unaprochable east): If you are going to be taking Bear Warrior it would allow you to use your natural attacks as part of the flurry.

- War mind (expanded psionic handbook): Normally tashalatora works best with pw but since you are already taking barbarian levels this is yummy.

- Thayan gladiator (champions of ruin): It does not progress your monk unarmed strike, but it is one of my favorite prestige classes for unarmed strike. Imho it works best when combined with shou disciple and fist of the forest.

[Santra]

Question 1 - Should I start with ~14 strength and take intuitive attack so I can focus on my wis mod for attacks and armor and let my rage pick up the slack on damage or should I just pump up strength and let keep my wis and dex ~14-16?

Question 2 - Whirling Frenzy or standard rage? One gives me an extra attack while the other gives me more survival.

Question 3 - Should I take a level of cloistered cleric and dump my domains for the Animal, Travel, and Strength devotion feats?

[Karnith]

I am liking bear warrior however I am not a fan of fist of the forest having never liked the restrictions it forces on you. Would picking up Extra Rage and Extend Rage be worth it? Is Touch of Golden Ice as good as everyone says it is?
How wedded are you to have a mostly-monk build? Because building a punchbarian would probably be stronger in unarmed combat, mechanically; you've already got the Spirit Lion Totem and Whirling Frenzy parts, and with the Wolf Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ), City Brawler (Dragon magazine #349; trades medium armor and martial weapon proficiency for Improved Unarmed Strike and Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at Barbarian 6, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting at Barbarian 11, usable only with unarmed strikes). With feats, like Superior Unarmed Strike at level 3, and equipment, like a Monk's belt, you can have the same unarmed attack shtick with a better BAB, more HP, better AC (armor is a wonderful thing), and at least as many attacks. You'll miss out on the random monk stuff, but most of that isn't terribly useful anyway.

If you've only got one level of Barbarian, and don't plan on taking any more, then you should absolutely take Extra Rage. Chances are, you'll have more than one combat encounter per day, and you'll want to be able to Whirling Frenzy in every combat. On the other hand, combat probably won't last long enough for you to need Extend Rage unless you have a really low Constitution modifier.

Fist of the Forest is really good, and since you're already a Barbarian/Monk, you can probably just ask your DM if you can ignore the RP requirements.

Touch of the Golden Ice isn't that great, especially at later levels, but it's fun at low levels when you've got a bunch of attacks. I wouldn't recommend taking it; at level 5, it'll be usable for a little while longer, but in not too many levels it'll just be annoying for the DM to have roll dice for each hit.

[Flickerdart]

Play a Goliath. Goliath Barbarians get a special Rage variant (Mountain Rage) that makes them one size larger while raging. This is obviously very useful, since it increases the reach and damage of your unarmed attacks, as well as the effectiveness of your combat maneuvers. Goliaths have +1 level adjustment, however, so see if your DM will allow the LA buyoff rules.

[thethird]

Question 1: If you want to go for WIS sadness shiba protector is good for that, if you do consider it, a passive way monk (for easy combat expertise) is probably good.

Question 2: I personally prefer rage, due to extra rage working on it, and due to increasing your CON (and your AC if you are a fist of the forest).

Question 3: Well you can go cleric / enlightened fist but then there isn't a need of taking barbarian levels. And cloistered cleric wouldn't allow you to get strength, travel and animal domains.

[Santra]

By being primary monk do you mean having as many monk levels as possible?



I was wanting to have a majority of my levels be monk if possible but that was always up for change.



- Fist of the forest (complete champion): Con to AC, a big bump on your unarmed strike damage and feral trance.

- Shou Disciple (unaprochable east): If you are going to be taking Bear Warrior it would allow you to use your natural attacks as part of the flurry.

- War mind (expanded psionic handbook): Normally tashalatora works best with pw but since you are already taking barbarian levels this is yummy.

- Thayan gladiator (champions of ruin): It does not progress your monk unarmed strike, but it is one of my favorite prestige classes for unarmed strike. Imho it works best when combined with shou disciple and fist of the forest.
No war mind sadly as he said no psionic classes. I will take a look at the others though.

[Flickerdart]

I was wanting to have a majority of my levels be monk if possible but that was always up for change.
Monk is not going to be useful for you beyond level 6. Pick out a prestige class to get into at that point. If you like grappling, Black Blood Cultist will serve you well here.

[Santra]

Question 1: If you want to go for WIS sadness shiba protector is good for that, if you do consider it, a passive way monk (for easy combat expertise) is probably good.

Question 2: I personally prefer rage, due to extra rage working on it, and due to increasing your CON (and your AC if you are a fist of the forest).

Question 3: Well you can go cleric / enlightened fist but then there isn't a need of taking barbarian levels. And cloistered cleric wouldn't allow you to get strength, travel and animal domains.

Ahh that is right the their third domain is the Knowledge domain.

[Flickerdart]

If you want Sacred Fist, it would be better to use Champion of Gwynharwyf as your spell base, since they can cast while raging.

[SowZ]

I'd second Shiba Protector if you want to focus on Wisdom. Fist of the Forest is certainly useful, though a little less useful for a Whirling Frenzy Barb. than for the standard Bard. Regardless, worthwhile.

[Flickerdart]

Shiba Protector is too expensive to get into for just +Wis to attack/damage. It's only really worth it if you have some other very compelling reasons to boost Wisdom, such as the Soulbow's Wisdom to damage again.

[Santra]

Does the feat Flying Kick from complete warrior only give the extra d12 damage on a single unarmed attack or would it give them on ALL unarmed attacks made as part of a charge?

http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/flying-kick--1158/

[thethird]

Yes, shiba protector costs to much for what it is worth, still it needed to be mentioned when talking about focusing on WIS.

Btw I am totally seeing now a Barbarian 2 / monk 3 / fist of the forest 3 / champion of gwynarhwyf 4 / Sacred fist 6 / xxx 2

[SowZ]

Shiba Protector is too expensive to get into for just +Wis to attack/damage. It's only really worth it if you have some other very compelling reasons to boost Wisdom, such as the Soulbow's Wisdom to damage again.

I'd agree that the OP should just focus on Str, but if he wants to pimp out Wisdom than he may as well go shiba. Tireless is a decent enough feat for a Barb.

[Mato]

Actually you can get into it pretty easy. Remember, Combat Expertise can be picked up using Passive Way Monk. So you can continue to dump Int while picking up some Trippage which pays for it's self (lose an attack to trip, then gain an attack, it's +CC!). And Iron Will can be picked up from a Magical Location (Otyugh Hole, CS pg151) for 3k gold.

Meaning Alertness is your only real costly expenditure, as a Class that gains 3 more Feats than anyone else, and we're talking Wisdom-to-AC. So, the better question is why wouldn't you?

Edit - Also before you even bring it up. Using Point Buy as a comparison. An 18 costs 16 points while a 16 costs 10. By dropping Str form 18 to 16, you can afford a 14 in Wisdom at the same exact cost. Except, in the out come, you have +3 & +2 to Attack/Damage vs +4, and higher AC, and higher Will. Yeah, Ability-to-X is so awesome it shuts up any MAD points without any effort.

[Flickerdart]

Meaning Alertness is your only real costly expenditure, as a Class that gains 3 more Feats than anyone else, and we're talking Wisdom-to-AC. So, the better question is why wouldn't you?
Because your class is so crap that even with +3 feats, it's still behind.

[SowZ]

Hey, if everyone could ignore my implication that Endurance was a pre req for Shiba Protector that would be great, thanks.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Minimum Levels of Monk, maximum in a better class

In all seriousness, take Wallrun (Dungeonscape) over Slowfall. It has WAY more uses than Slowfall, but can act like it when need be.

[Togo]

Question 1 - Should I start with ~14 strength and take intuitive attack so I can focus on my wis mod for attacks and armor and let my rage pick up the slack on damage or should I just pump up strength and let keep my wis and dex ~14-16?

I've played monks with wis 8, and just putting all the points into Str. It worked surprisingly well. Unless you get stunning fist, then you're just losing a few points of AC to be better at hitting and damaging with every strike.

[Silvanoshei]

Min/Max a Monk eh? This is simple.

Basically all you do is go to were you write down and change too.....

Class: Monk Wizard

Min/Max complete!! :thog:

[Sgt. Cookie]

Really though, we should give the monk some credit, at least it's better than Truenamer.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, talk to your DM, get LA buyoff on the table, and get him to approve the Item Familiar Feat. Also get him to approve an Item form Savage species called Necklace of Natural weapons. It's basically a more cost effective version of Amulet of Mighty Fists. Lastly, talk him into letting you take a couple of flaws.

Make it with a super thin coating of Riverine over it, and a couple of traps attached to it to protect it from theft, disintegrate, disjunction, ext. You want to protect this investment heavily, trust me.


So, now that we have that, let's talk race. Go Goliath. Buy off the +1 La. Now, Add another Template. I personally like one from the following list.

Quasi Lycanthrope.
Half Minotaur.
Loth Touched. (Probably gonna need a re fluff.)

There all LA +1, so buy that LA off as well. Maybe acquire a third Template later in Game and buy it off if you haven't used up the bulk of your extra XP from the Item Familiar.

Next, Flaws. Grab Shaky and what ever that flaw that makes you take a -2 to melee was (None-combatant or pacifist or something.), and take your bonus feats.

For general feats, focus on Trips and Grapples, Scorpions Grasp and Knock Down and Combat Reflexes are gonna be great, Karmatic Strike and Robilars Gambit aren't bad either as high as your HP is gonna be once were done. Other decent to good feats are the mage slayer line, stone power, tiger blooded, power attack and a couple of hits of extra rage (I'm sure the DM will let it work with Whirling Frenzy.) Endurance and Steadfast determination are also worth at least thinking about. I know, a couple of those aren't commonly suggested, but they can work here with the next bit of gear I'm gonna suggest.

Grab a set of objects, fine sized, and have them animated. Keep them with you, and have them give you Aid Another actions to offset the attack penalty's you pick up. One for whirling Frenzy, one for Flurry of blows, one for that Melee flaw, one for being Large if you go half Minotaur (Think of it as being a medium monk with weapons focus as opposed to a large monk, but with all the cool of being large.), and then one for each of your hit dice. So you can full power attack/stone power and still hit like a full BAB chassis.Oh, and make sure there made of Riverine.

Another good bit of gear would be to have an Eternal wand of CL 5 Practical Metamagic: Extended Greater Mighty Wallop to Juice your damage up to as if you where Colossal+.

I also suggest Iron Golem Construct Graphs form MMII. Get access to the Diamond Mind Martial maneuver to use a concentration check to in place of fort or will saves (I forget which one is applicable atm and I'm away form books.). This can be gotten with a Dip into Warblade (Highly recommended for so many reasons.) or swordsage, with an Item from the Tome of Battle, or with a couple of feats. Make sure you Juice your concentration check and have the graphs put on you, so that you suffer negligible negative effects. Then have a coating of Riverine put on it, again, a thin one. Maybe make it so your wand and animated objects can be stored inside the graphs.


Congratulations, you should now be an absolute Combat Monster. Your still of at best limited use outside of combat, but fighting you in a straight brawl is death unless you opt to be merciful and deal none lethal damage for some weird reason.

[Vaz]

Warforged, 1 Flaw (to take Great Fortitude)

1: Monk 1 = Decisive Strike, Stunning Fist, Unarmored Body
2: Setting Sun Swordsage 1 = Weapon Focus (includes Quarterstaff)
3: Barbarian 1 = Pounce, Power Attack
4: Barbarian 2 = Improved Trip
5: Fighter 1 = Improved Bull Rush
6: Archivist 1 = Any Divine and Sorcerer/Wizard spell Wand/Scroll usage
7: Fighter 2 = Dungeoncrasher, Combat Brute, Brute Fighting
8: Monk 2 = Combat Reflexes
9: Monk 3 = Still Mind, Master of Poisons
10; Monk 4 = Wall Walker
11; Fist of the Forest 1
12; Fist of the Forest 2, Power Lunge (can focus on )
13; Fist of the Forest 3
14; Psychic Warrior 1 (Enlarge); Shock Trooper
15; Swordsage 2; Knockback
16; Fighter 3;
17; Fighter 4; Smiting Spell (Lesser Shivering Touch)
18; Fighter 5; Superior Unarmed Strikes
19; Fighter 6; Increased Bull rushing from Dungeoncrasher
20; Shadowsun Ninja 1; Monk Abilities +1

Have fun with Bullrushing hilarity.

[Eldariel]

Really though, we should give the monk some credit, at least it's better than Truenamer.

Eh. A Truenamer can at least become a solid contributor later on. It just takes ridiculous work to get your Truename bonuses high enough. Can't say that for Monk.

[Mato]

@Metahuman1
Ummm..... So wait, you are willing to suggest LA-Buy (seen as OP even by Flaw users), and Item Familiar (nothing less than cheese) and suggest begging for thousands of Animate Object Spells cast for you (to aid other, they have to be in same square as opponent, free AoO to break them)?

I'm thinking you should have just played the Dustform & Incarnate Creature card. Same level of beg your DM for abuse, but ten paragraphs shorter.

[Mato]

Eh. A Truenamer can at least become a solid contributor later on. It just takes ridiculous work to get your Truename bonuses high enough. Can't say that for Monk.I thought the problem was just the opposite, being it's a skill and hitting +50 is fairly easy at higher levels.

[SowZ]

Really though, we should give the monk some credit, at least it's better than Truenamer.

Monk is, arguably, worse at fighting than a Warrior.

[Santra]

No LA races and no flaws I am quite sad to say.


Does the feat Flying Kick from complete warrior only give the extra d12 damage on a single unarmed attack or would it give them on ALL unarmed attacks made as part of a charge?

http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/flying-kick--1158/
Any answers on this?

[Vaz]

Just realised that you don't even need a flaw, there is a feat at 6th i missed. An warforged have no la.

[Mato]

Any answers on this?General interpretation is it affects them all.

Normally you make one attack after a change, so obviously the authors will forgo using a plural form in their works. Charge multipliers, Flying Kick, etc, all use the singular notation that is the norm.

Pounce comes in and overrides the traditional single attack into multiple. Thus altering in this specific context the correct phase usage from 'attack' to 'attacks'. And into that, each Feat or affect carries over to each of the additional attacks.

And going into the interpretations. The above not necessarily a wrong interpretation at all. Words have no inherent value, they are a means to transmit a message. In this case, while charging your attack(s, via pounce) you deal +1d12 damage. While fluffed as a Lu Kang Flying Kick special move may tell the tale of one kick only this is done in context of a game that uses Attacks, BAB, AC, and HP to simulate combat where one to hundreds of 'attacks' is preformed in a few seconds. What's to say you only scored one nick or forty using two attacks? Nothing, it's fluff and up to you.

That being said, you could shoot for nerfage and say it's one attack only per "'RAW', I wouldn't say you're wrong but would say the house interpretation is a little unneeded. You don't need Pounce to murder stuff in one hit when Charging,. While it is the largest contribute of damage in number, it's plays the lowest role in killing your target. Power Attack/Leap Attack alone give +80 damage, tack on two of the tenish multiplier granting effects and you an one shot everything up to CR 18ish easy enough before factoring Strength damage. Your time would be better served else where if you want to 'fix' things.

[Metahuman1]

@Metahuman1
Ummm..... So wait, you are willing to suggest LA-Buy (seen as OP even by Flaw users), and Item Familiar (nothing less than cheese) and suggest begging for thousands of Animate Object Spells cast for you (to aid other, they have to be in same square as opponent, free AoO to break them)?

I'm thinking you should have just played the Dustform & Incarnate Creature card. Same level of beg your DM for abuse, but ten paragraphs shorter.

The thread title said Min/Max a Monk. I Min/Maxed for the Monk. I never said this would be a good idea if he was instead going with a Psywarrior or Ardent with a couple of levels of monk and that feat to progress there ability's together, or if he was going unarmed swordsage.