Pros and cons of each gaming system. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Mechanize

2013-01-26, 09:23 PM

Xuc Xac

2013-01-26, 09:56 PM

Given your experience, any game you make is going to look a lot like D&D. I'll give you the same advice I give everyone who wants to design their own game:

Read 10 different games and play/run at least 5 of them. D&D counts as one, no matter how many editions.

Grod_The_Giant

2013-01-26, 10:14 PM

D&D (3.5)

pros: iconic, simple basic mechanics, and plenty of tactical complexity
cons: unbalanced, complex higher-level mechanics, kind of slow, relevant options are scattered across a dozen or more books, systems mastery is kind of required to play, poor support for roleplaying, d20s are swingy.

D&D (4e, though it's been a few years since I last played)

Pros: still relatively iconic (everyone's heard of D&D), classes have plenty of options
Cons: classes all feel the same, options and abilities all feel the same, almost worse than 3.5 for out-of-combat/roleplaying stuff, hit point overinflation

Exalted

Pros: awesome setting and flavor, themed-but-flexible character creation
Cons: unbalanced, unwieldy, slow, I dislike dice pools, and did I mention that the combat is slow and unwieldy?

Mutants and Masterminds 3e

Pros: amazingly flexible character creation/advancement, relatively simple gameplay mechanics, easy to maintain a balanced party if you take the time to look over builds, combat is a blast
Cons: getting the most out of character creation takes a decent amount of system mastery, easy to break if you try, d20s are swingy, not always super-good for roleplaying, skills << powers.

FATE (note: I'm just learning this system)

Pros: easy character creation, simple to learn, great for roleplaying, cinematic combat, the Dresden File's approach to magic looks like it does a good job balancing power with drawbacks, and sourcebooks tend to be very well written.
Cons: lack of tactical complexity in combat, slow advancement

STaRS (my homebrew system)

Pros: fast, simple, flexible, players make all the rolls, easy to design foes
Cons: heavily-to-over-dependant on GM judgement, lack of tactical complexity

Zelkon

2013-01-26, 10:21 PM

4e is a system so close to being great, but it misses some key marks, namely interesting progression. Classes may or may not feel same-y depending on who you talk to, but I like its take on magic vs martial. 3.5 is fun to characterbuild but can become unwieldy and out if control without a careful hand, and has some frustrating limitations. However, magic is quite fun if unbalanced, and there's a lot you can do with the system while still remaining true to it. I don't have time or money for non-D&D RPGs mainly, but I read a lot of them in my spare time. Free resources are your friend. I never bought a GURPS book but the QuickStart guide influences my design desisions to this day.

CarpeGuitarrem

2013-01-26, 10:39 PM

Well, I've read...

A Dirty World, Hollowpoint, The One Ring, A Song of Ice and Fire RP, Bounty Head Bebop, 4th Edition, some of 3.5, Swords & Wizardry, the Dresden Files RPG, Traveller (Mongoose Edition), some of 1st Edition Legend of the Five Rings, World of Darkness, Marvel Heroic, Fiasco, Burning Wheel, Risus, Wushu Open, Old School Hack, Dungeon World, Mecha, Tenra Bansho Zero...and missing a bunch of free RPGs.

So I could write you a novella about the pros and cons that I find in them. :smallwink:

Really, though, you're best off looking for interesting games, and deciding for yourself what you like and don't in games, what works and what doesn't. And don't discount the free RPGs. There's a lot of skeletal and unpolished stuff out there, but it's got some interesting stuff, too.

oxybe

2013-01-27, 03:28 AM

1) put aside D&D and it's clones for now.

2) go read Spirit of the Century. it's free (http://www.faterpg.com/dl/nerukar_fate3_sotc_SRD_07.pdf).

3) now go read GURPS. or at least GURPS lite (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG31-0004). it's hardly the full system, but it'll give you a solid idea what it's like.

4) go read shadowrun's free quick start guide (http://www.shadowrun4.com/wp-content/uploads/Downloads/Shadowrun%20Quick-Start%20Rules.pdf). again free. doesn't have full char gen, but it does give the basic play rules, a few pregens and an adventure. chargen is similar to GURPS where you pointbuy everything.

5) the d6 system. it's free and it's 3-for-1 bundle (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/29204/D6-Core-Set-%5BBUNDLE%5D?it=1): adventure, fantasy & space hooray!

6) tri-stat dx. originally, the system used for the Big Eyes Small Mouth anime RPG, they released a "universal" version of the system. here's the full, free, pdf (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/368/Tri-Stat-dX:-Core-System-Role-Playing-Game?it=1).

7) the wushu open (http://danielbayn.com/wushu/freebies.html)Carpe spoke of. it's a wire-fu inspired dice pool game.

there. you've got at least 6 other systems to check out (at least part of in some cases).

like Xuc, i would recommend playing at least 4 more. those are the free, non-D&D spinoffs i can think of off the top of my head. lots more exist out there, especially in the indie category.

in addition, i would recommend playing not just many tabletop RPGs, but also many videogames and other types of tabletop games, like various cardgames (trading, deckbuilding and whatnot),eurogames (settlers, carcasonne, puerto rico), etc.

why?

many ideas can jump across the borders. it doesn't mean that a direct port will fit well, but if you play a game and like a certain concept, look at it from a designer's point of view:

"why is this mechanic/element here? what is it's purpose? what does it add/remove from the overall experience? what is it supposed to convey to the player and does it succeed?"

this can go from something as complex as Borderland's gun randomization to as simple as Legend of Zelda's choice of hart icons to represent health, still used almost 30 years after it's first release.

Dumbledore lives

2013-01-27, 05:18 AM

Break out some non D20 systems, because for all the simplicity of the base mechanic I personally don't like 20 sided dice too much, way too swingy in my opinion.

Don't Rest Your Head
Pros: The best horror game I've ever played, the mechanics compliment the fluff, very easy to improvise, character creation takes under five minutes, every roll has consequences
Cons: Base mechanic can seem complicated at first, only good for really one or two genres

All Flesh Must Be Eaten (And all derivatives including the Buffy RPG)
Pros: Simple conflict resolution with exploding dice for added excitement, suitable for a number of genres, encourages roleplaying with character creation
Cons: Character creation takes a long time, too many skills that are often superfluous (Fixed in some derivatives), combat can be slow

I could also talk about my experiences with 3rd and 4th but given you've played them I figure you know them pretty well. I'd say Legend is better than 3rd in a number of respects though, and is the best derivative of it I've seen.

CarpeGuitarrem

2013-01-27, 03:15 PM

The LOBster

2013-01-27, 06:56 PM

4th edition has some pretty good balance and it's very hard to build a sucky character that isn't a Seeker, Vampire, Assassin or pre-Errata Battlemind, but it has less splatbooks because it wasn't done with the OGL, and Essentials kinda tilted things backwards towards Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards. Plus, it's gonna be ending soon so Next can take its place. 3.5 has buttloads of support from third parties, and still continues through Pathfinder, but it's got a horrible case of Linear Warrios Quadratic Wizards and requiring system mastery to even survive in - it's very difficult for a new player to even get started because of this, although PF characters are a lot harder to kill than standard 3.5 characters.

obryn

2013-01-27, 07:34 PM

Actually, I'd recommend that instead of reading Spirit of the Century, go and back the Fate Core (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/evilhat/fate-core) Kickstarter. For a mere dollar, you get access to the beta rules (check the early backers-only updates), which are like Spirit of the Century, but more streamlined, improved, and better-explained. Far better-explained.
Yep, this.

I think the biggest thing to keep in mind is that if you're looking for really innovative game design, D&D is not really the main place to go for it. (I'd argue that 4e was very innovative in a lot of ways in which D&D wasn't before, but it's still D&D and you'd do better to branch out if you're looking seriously into game design.)

My own personal favorite non-D&D systems right now are FATE Core (seriously, check out the kickstarter already; you only have a day or two left) and Savage Worlds. Both do some really, really neat stuff. oxybe's list is a good way to get an overview - and he's right, look at video and card games, too. RPGs are not some kind of pure, pristine hobby; cross-pollination from other games is vital to its development and growth.

-O

TheOOB

2013-01-27, 11:13 PM

I am in the process of creating my own pen and paper system. I have only played 2nd, 3.5 and 4th edition to make any comparisons. I also have my own opinions of those versions, but would like more opinions.

I would love it if you guys could name the pros and cons of each gaming system you have ever played. Please don't turn this into a debate on what others said. Opinions are opinions...

You need to play some other RPGs before you start working on a new system. The fact that you are using D&D synonymous with RPG system(implied but mentioning D&D editions and no other systems), implies that you don't have a lot of experience with game systems, and if you are planning on creating, you need to experience as many systems as possible both good and bad(in fact you often learn more from bad systems than good systems).

Here are systems I have experience with:

D&D: Handles combat and high fantasy well, other stuff not so much. Can get bogged down in rules and crunchy bits.

New World of Darkness: Creates an amazing setting and the base system is fairly rules light making for easy play. However handles combat poorly and it's rules are most vague when they need to be the most clear(Mage: The Awakening I'm looking at you).

True20: Shows an interesting take on the d20 system, and has a lot of good ideas, but more shows the limitations of a class and level based system than highlights the benefits. You can have classes with interesting abilities, or you have an organic system with a ton of customization, it's hard to have both.

Paranoia: Amazing setting, lots of fun, super simple, but poor for long running campaigns.

Fiasco: Because not every RPG is about stats and epic adventures. (It's amazing, check it out).

7th Sea: Amazing setting, great combat system, sub par skill and advancement system. Shows it's age and the developers inexperience at the time(desperately needs a second edition).

Legend of the Five Rings: If 7th Sea got a new edition, and it was about samurai, it would be this(yes L5R came first, but I've only played 4e). Mixes class and level based systems and organic systems better than any system I've seen. Not very balanced though.

Rifts: There are reasons we don't use skills as percentiles anymore.

FATAL: Next(seriously, while I say there's always something to learn from bad systems, this one isn't worth your time)

Shadowrun: Fun concept, but rules are both too complex for their own good, and too ambiguous about too many things, also tends to only let one or two players play at a time. Base rules are great, but the more special systems you add in the more it falls apart.

Exalted: Amazing setting, amazing characters, WAY overly complex and ambiguous rules, and one of the worst advancement/creation systems I have ever seen.

Scion: Where Exalted is bad, Scion is worse, no flurries though.

The most important thing to remember when making a system is to make your mechanics match the feel you are going for. I'm working on a Gritty super hero setting, so I'm taking a lot of influence from Exalted and Scion, but also using things I've learned from many other systems(such as L5R), to make it, IMO work better as a whole(and of course adding a lot of newish elements).

Mechanize

2013-01-27, 11:27 PM

I just want to thank everyone for your input thus far, and I apologize if I can't reply to you all.

@ xuc xac:

I agree, and am reading up on other systems. This thread was more or less designed to get your opinion, not mine. I'm an opinionated bastard and I want to make sure I am on the right track, as in creating something everyone will enjoy, not just myself. :)

@ grod_the_giant:

Though I can't give opinion on the other games you mentioned, I must say that I agree with your pros and cons with the D&D editions. Do you think you could specifiy which part of either edition slows the game down too much?

@ zelkon:

Which limitations in 3.5 do you find frustrating?

@ others:

I will definitely be checking out some of the other games mentioned. Here are some of my goals if anyone is interested in making comments or directing me to other games with similar concepts. If there is one thing I learned lately its that my ideas are not unique lol. I've seen house rules and had friends tell me about other games with similar ideas. The question is in how to properly put it all together.

- A realistic feel of battle without making the game too complex. Hard I know, but I'd like to have a game where strategy trumps character optimization.

- Things for players to do off turn to keep players attention on the battle

- Extremely open character creation. Probably some sort of point buy but I haven't given this much thought yet.

- A magic system where casters are very diverse right from the start. Think of something like magic the gathering mages however far more specialized and less dynamic unless they choose to give up strength in their specialty and adopt other "schools" or "colors" for diversity.

- A system that discourages stats dumping/focusing. Some casters will find a use for strength and some fighters will find a use for wisdom or int for example.

So far I am just working on the base combat system and the magic ideas. The world and all the fluff will come much much later. I do know I tend to lean toward a very gritty and dark setting though. When it comes to that stuff though, DM's have the power to change so much so in the end it's the core of the game that has to be good.

Mechanize

2013-01-27, 11:31 PM

You need to play some other RPGs before you start working on a new system. The fact that you are using D&D synonymous with RPG system(implied but mentioning D&D editions and no other systems), implies that you don't have a lot of experience with game systems, and if you are planning on creating, you need to experience as many systems as possible both good and bad(in fact you often learn more from bad systems than good systems).

Here are systems I have experience with:

D&D: Handles combat and high fantasy well, other stuff not so much. Can get bogged down in rules and crunchy bits.

New World of Darkness: Creates an amazing setting and the base system is fairly rules light making for easy play. However handles combat poorly and it's rules are most vague when they need to be the most clear(Mage: The Awakening I'm looking at you).

True20: Shows an interesting take on the d20 system, and has a lot of good ideas, but more shows the limitations of a class and level based system than highlights the benefits. You can have classes with interesting abilities, or you have an organic system with a ton of customization, it's hard to have both.

Paranoia: Amazing setting, lots of fun, super simple, but poor for long running campaigns.

Fiasco: Because not every RPG is about stats and epic adventures. (It's amazing, check it out).

7th Sea: Amazing setting, great combat system, sub par skill and advancement system. Shows it's age and the developers inexperience at the time(desperately needs a second edition).

Legend of the Five Rings: If 7th Sea got a new edition, and it was about samurai, it would be this(yes L5R came first, but I've only played 4e). Mixes class and level based systems and organic systems better than any system I've seen. Not very balanced though.

Rifts: There are reasons we don't use skills as percentiles anymore.

FATAL: Next(seriously, while I say there's always something to learn from bad systems, this one isn't worth your time)

Shadowrun: Fun concept, but rules are both too complex for their own good, and too ambiguous about too many things, also tends to only let one or two players play at a time. Base rules are great, but the more special systems you add in the more it falls apart.

Exalted: Amazing setting, amazing characters, WAY overly complex and ambiguous rules, and one of the worst advancement/creation systems I have ever seen.

Scion: Where Exalted is bad, Scion is worse, no flurries though.

The most important thing to remember when making a system is to make your mechanics match the feel you are going for. I'm working on a Gritty super hero setting, so I'm taking a lot of influence from Exalted and Scion, but also using things I've learned from many other systems(such as L5R), to make it, IMO work better as a whole(and of course adding a lot of newish elements).

The biggest problem with playing other games is finding others to play them with.

I can read into it all I want, but I can get the feel of a game playing 1 session more than I can memorizing every single word of every single book. I understand what you are saying, and the experience is invaluable. But it's harder to find players into other games than you think.

Amidus Drexel

2013-01-28, 12:21 AM

- A magic system where casters are very diverse right from the start. Think of something like magic the gathering mages however far more specialized and less dynamic unless they choose to give up strength in their specialty and adopt other "schools" or "colors" for diversity.

If you're looking for an interesting magic system, you ought to look at Ars Magica. I've never played it myself (I don't have the time to properly learn a new system and then teach it to five people still learning another one), but it has a rather interesting magic system (and not a d20 one, either). I'm sure someone here that's played it could say more.

Grod_The_Giant

2013-01-28, 12:33 AM

@ grod_the_giant:

Though I can't give opinion on the other games you mentioned, I must say that I agree with your pros and cons with the D&D editions. Do you think you could specifiy which part of either edition slows the game down too much?

If I remember, the biggest thing making 4e slow was the fact that everyone had about twice as many hit points as they should have, but, as I said, it's been a few years since I played.

3e... the first thing that leaps to mind is the sheer range of abilities that players have, especially if you're playing a caster or ToB character. How often have you had to stop play to look up what, exactly, a spell does? There are plenty of things that you can do to help, but you have to get really obsessively organized to do it perfectly, and even then, it's no substitute for having everything in your head. On the other hand, it's that same breadth of abilities that make the game fun, so there's no easy solution.

After that, I'd worry about the sheer quantity of rules. Combat maneuvers are the worst case (coughgrapplingcough), but there are so many little rules scattered here and there about stuff like wind, pressure damage, the effects of cold... that kind of thing contributes to a strong drive to stop and look up the proper rule "real quick," even when we should and do know better.

In fact... probably the biggest problem with rules-heavy games is that irrepressible drive to do things "properly." Even when it should be simple to come up with something on the spot, there's a sense of "well, the designers wrote rules for it, so we should use them."

Worse, I've seen heavier systems encourage DMs-- or at least encourage me-- to try and fit all actions into the known rules. Usually, that means either pouring through books to find the right rule, or discouraging the action because it doesn't fit neatly into the "real" rules. And that's Bad.

Also:

- Things for players to do off turn to keep players attention on the battle
I'm extremely interested where you go with this, because I don't think I've seen any game with a mechanic like that. (Besides held actions, which really aren't the same at all)

Reltzik

2013-01-28, 12:49 AM

Totally Freeform:

Pros: No stuff to buy. GM fiat is absolute. No hefty tome of rules for a thousand and one circumstances. No min-maxing.

Cons: No swag to buy. GM fiat is absolute. No handy tome of rules for a thousand and one circumstances. No min-maxing.

Mechanize

2013-01-28, 02:47 PM

If I remember, the biggest thing making 4e slow was the fact that everyone had about twice as many hit points as they should have, but, as I said, it's been a few years since I played.

3e... the first thing that leaps to mind is the sheer range of abilities that players have, especially if you're playing a caster or ToB character. How often have you had to stop play to look up what, exactly, a spell does? There are plenty of things that you can do to help, but you have to get really obsessively organized to do it perfectly, and even then, it's no substitute for having everything in your head. On the other hand, it's that same breadth of abilities that make the game fun, so there's no easy solution.

After that, I'd worry about the sheer quantity of rules. Combat maneuvers are the worst case (coughgrapplingcough), but there are so many little rules scattered here and there about stuff like wind, pressure damage, the effects of cold... that kind of thing contributes to a strong drive to stop and look up the proper rule "real quick," even when we should and do know better.

In fact... probably the biggest problem with rules-heavy games is that irrepressible drive to do things "properly." Even when it should be simple to come up with something on the spot, there's a sense of "well, the designers wrote rules for it, so we should use them."

Worse, I've seen heavier systems encourage DMs-- or at least encourage me-- to try and fit all actions into the known rules. Usually, that means either pouring through books to find the right rule, or discouraging the action because it doesn't fit neatly into the "real" rules. And that's Bad.

Also:

I'm extremely interested where you go with this, because I don't think I've seen any game with a mechanic like that. (Besides held actions, which really aren't the same at all)

I think having options is what made 3.5 better than 4e, but you are right, it slows things down unless you know the rules by memory. I think the most simple solution is to make as many options as you can have the the same or similar rules and adjustments so that there isn't that matter of "hold on let me look up the rule."

As for keeping players active off turn, so far all I have is active defenses that you roll for. D&D feels like taking turns bashing at eachother's armor. A real weapons battle is constant blocking, parrying, footwork, etc so instead of armor and dexterity passively blocking for you, its your actual weapon skill that does your primary blocking. Or you could be light on your feet and actively dodge/evade attacks, rather than blocking, which could give you openings for free hits.

In D&D terms, if the above mentioned makes no sense, you would attack me d20 + bab + bonuses, and I would choose to block with my shield rolling my d20 + bab + bonuses. Sword and board, or dual wielding would have 2 block chances per round, but the shield would give much bigger bonuses. 2H weapons only allow 1 block because both limbs are occupied on 1 weapon, or those in light armor will have higher chances to roll and evade due to being light on their feet and evasion gives a free AoO.

Where this might sound unbalanced on the defensive end, it will heavily depend on the weapons used and armor worn. A 2h weapon might only get 1 block, but due to weight and stregth factors a heavy 2h weapon could not , short of a miracle, be blocked by a short sword so I am thinking about given certain weapons something like an over power bonus vs blocking.

I want players to survey the battlefield and know that they have strengths and weaknesses. That hulking barbarian wielding a 20lb maul will crush a man with a shield and platemail because the armored fighter can't dodge well, however the rogue or dexterous finesse fighter would pick the barbarian apart. However, the man in plate armor could withstand a small army because even though he would only get 2 blocks per round, his big DR for wearing plate will allow him to soak up a ton of smaller attacks.

The fun thing about this all, and the reason I am doing it, is because I am a mix martial arts instructor that always had a dream of designing games. I know fighting, kick boxing, grappling, knife fighting, stick fighting. I understand the ins and outs of combat. Many times, playing D&D, I lose that sense of fantasy due to things playing out in a weird way that is not even close to being realistic.

Arbane

2013-01-29, 03:27 AM

Realism is a hard thing to get in a game. Probably impossible to achieve. Probably not worth TRYING, since 'realism' means that your character gets to die slowly from a sucking chest wound from one or two bad die-rolls. Even verisimilitude is hard to come by.

More games you should look at:

Basic Role Playing system: Call of Cthulhu, RuneQuest: Mostly percentile-skill-based system. It's been around in various iterations since... the late 1970s? and it's been through a lot of refinements.

Legend of the Wulin: Kung-fu action of the sort you'd see in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon or a Tsui Hark film. Has an interesting approach to skills/ability checks and combat 'damage' I haven't seen anywhere else yet.

Feng Shui: "Hong Kong Action Movie Roleplaying". Nice, simple system. Revolutionary when it came out for the idea that doing something in a really flashy way shouldn't be penalized over doing it the boring way. (Exalted took that further, by actually _rewarding_ PCs for impressive stunts.) Gleefully defenestrates the wrong-headed concept of 'realism' in favor of 'what would look cool onscreen'. Also, it has cyborg gorillas from the future.

Mechanize

2013-01-29, 01:59 PM