Standards and Measures?

[Chilingsworth]

Hey Playground!

Ok, this one may seem kinda dull (well, duller than my previous threads) but I'd like your input:

So, I'd like to come up with a system of measurements for a D&D world based on properties characters in that world could actually replicate (more or less) at will. I'd also like suggestions for names of the units I have.

Anyway, what I have so far:

Distance: the difference in range between a scroll of a close range spell created at minimum potency and one created at the next level of potency that shows any difference (i.e. 2 caster levels higher, aka "5 feet")

Area: a square 1 distance unit on a side.

Volume: a cube 1 distance unit on a side.

Distances (and therefore volumes) smaller or larger than these basic units would be expressed in factors or multiples of 10 of the basic unit (i.e. as per the metric system.)

Time: The difference is duration of scroll of a short-term spell crafted at minimum potency, and one crafted at the next level of potency to show any difference (i.e. 1 caster level higher, 6 seconds)

times shorter than this basic unit would be expressed in terms of factors of ten of it. Longer durations would be expressed first in a factor of ten (equal to 60 seconds) then as per our system (minutes, hours, days, etc.)

weight: the wieght of water produced by a minimum potency create water spell. (16.66 pounds. Probably the 1/10 unit will see most daily use.) Thanks Jack Smith!

Temprature: easy: celsius scale (i.e. 1/100 the difference between the boiling and freezing points of created water at sea level) Smaller temprature measurements will be expressed in factors of ten (1/10 a degree, 1/100, etc.) but larger quantities will be expressed in the appropriate number of degrees.

Any units I'm missing? Any refinements to suggest?

[Jack_Simth]

weight: ??? Like the real world, I'm having trouble coming up with a practical unit of measuremant that can be varified by magical means. I considered the wieght of created water sufficent to fill a cube one distance unit on a side (i.e. 125 cubic feet of pure water) but that is far too large a mass to be used as a basic unit of wieght. If nothing can be suggested, I'll probably default to the pound, but have greater and lesser weights be expressed as factors/multiples of ten.The Create Water spell, at minimum caster level, produces a very specific amount of water, and is within easy carrying capacity.

[Chilingsworth]

The Create Water spell, at minimum caster level, produces a very specific amount of water, and is within easy carrying capacity.

Hmm... good point. Thanks!

So, that's 2 gallons, at 8.33 lbs/gallon, so 16.66 pounds of water per minimum level cast. So, 1/10th that wieght would be almost exactly between a pound and a kilo. The deci[unit] will probably be what gets the most use in everyday life. Still, that's definately an acceptable unit of measurement!

[tyckspoon]

If you want something else to use for weight measurements, 1 pound is the amount of material that can be moved by a Prestidigitation spell and 5 pounds is the limit for a Mage Hand. Also per RAW the metal content of 50 "standard" coins of the same variety is 1 pound worth of material, but you may wish to disregard this as a standard of measurement because there is no sensible reason this should be so, or indeed that everybody deals in "standard" coins all the time.

[Chilingsworth]

If you want something else to use for weight measurements, 1 pound is the amount of material that can be moved by a Prestidigitation spell and 5 pounds is the limit for a Mage Hand. Also per RAW the metal content of 50 "standard" coins of the same variety is 1 pound worth of material, but you may wish to disregard this as a standard of measurement because there is no sensible reason this should be so, or indeed that everybody deals in "standard" coins all the time.

As you suggest, the coins are a pointless standard. (basing the system on non consistant physical objects is what I'm trying to avoid.)

The other cantrips have promise, but if I use them to move a given candidate wieght, how do I know for sure that the thing actually is one or five pounds, and not less than that? A pitty, since either wieght could make converting between the PHB and my system a sinch.

[TuggyNE]

This is actually a very nice thread. :smallsmile:


Distance: the difference in range between a scroll of a close range spell created at minimum potency and one created at the next level of potency that shows any difference (i.e. 2 caster levels higher, aka "5 feet")

A "pace" or "short pace", or perhaps a "spell pace" or "spellstep".


Area: a square 1 distance unit on a side.

You could take a leaf from the metric book and just call it an "are". (A hectare is 100 ares. The More You Know!)


Volume: a cube 1 distance unit on a side.

Not sure what's wrong with "cubic short pace"/etc, but calling it a "tun" or "vat" might not be a bad idea.


Time: The difference is duration of scroll of a short-term spell crafted at minimum potency, and one crafted at the next level of potency to show any difference (i.e. 1 caster level higher, 6 seconds)

If they ever had mechanical clocks, you could express it in terms of ticks or similar, perhaps. Alternatively, base it off names for "small", as minute was; "fraction", "minim", and so forth could be interesting.


weight: the wieght of water produced by a minimum potency create water spell. (16.66 pounds. Probably the 1/10 unit will see most daily use.) Thanks Jack Smith!

Variants of "slug" could work, or "spellweight".

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Temprature: easy: celsius scale (i.e. 1/100 the difference between the boiling and freezing points of created water at sea level) Smaller temprature measurements will be expressed in factors of ten (1/10 a degree, 1/100, etc.) but larger quantities will be expressed in the appropriate number of degrees.

How would you actually take a measure of these increments, are you proposing inventing a celcius mercury thermometer?

Edit: I suppose you can measure it in increments of rounds of spamming prestidigitation's warming effect.

Also Prestidigitation's color effect gives another convenient measure of distance by coloring a 1 ft cube.

Lifting limits of spells could be found by adding sand to a bowl a grain at a time once your close changing to flour if you want to be very exact.

[Invader]

This is actually a very nice thread. :smallsmile:



A "pace" or "short pace", or perhaps a "spell pace" or "spellstep".



You could take a leaf from the metric book and just call it an "are". (A hectare is 100 ares. The More You Know!)



Not sure what's wrong with "cubic short pace"/etc, but calling it a "tun" or "vat" might not be a bad idea.



If they ever had mechanical clocks, you could express it in terms of ticks or similar, perhaps. Alternatively, base it off names for "small", as minute was; "fraction", "minim", and so forth could be interesting.



Variants of "slug" could work, or "spellweight".

I second all these suggestions.

[Story]

Blockade produces a cube that weighs 2000 lbs. But you only have 18 seconds to weigh it.

[TuggyNE]

How would you actually take a measure of these increments, are you proposing inventing a celcius mercury thermometer?

Edit: I suppose you can measure it in increments of rounds of spamming prestidigitation's warming effect.

Either could work, but honestly thermometers shouldn't be terribly difficult... at least, not for a society with full plate and the occasional gun. :smalltongue:

[Chilingsworth]

Either could work, but honestly thermometers shouldn't be terribly difficult... at least, not for a society with full plate and the occasional gun. :smalltongue:

Yeah, for all I know, thermometers might already exist in this particular world. Even if not, it's a world with alot of wizards and artificers in it, and a technology level nearing the rennisance (though without firearms afaik.) Also, my character's intelligence alone will be 25 before any items by the end of his career. (it's 21 now, at level 6.) I've invested in relevant knowledge skills (nature, arcitecture and engineering) so I should be able to figure it our fairly easily.

[TuggyNE]

Yeah, for all I know, thermometers might already exist in this particular world. Even if not, it's a world with alot of wizards and artificers in it, and a technology level nearing the rennisance (though without firearms afaik.) Also, my character's intelligence alone will be 25 before any items by the end of his career. (it's 21 now, at level 6.) I've invested in relevant knowledge skills (nature, arcitecture and engineering) so I should be able to figure it our fairly easily.

Basically, you need good glassblowing, a decent source of mercury/quicksilver or possibly something else, and the insight to realize thermal expansion is linear. Strictly speaking I don't think you even need a vacuum pump, although those were invented in the 1650s in our world. :smallsmile:

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I don't think that making a thermometer would be that hard. The difficulty lies in normalizing them without magic. Without magical calibration how would you know that two thermometers read the same or know that the difference in energy between the mercury expanding past different lines is equal. Humans are very bad at differentiating similar temperatures by feel.

[Elderand]

Seriously ? On the thermometer thing you got it backward.
What you do is take a sealed tube containing mercury (quicksilver is a thing in dnd) and put that tube against ice, watch for the lowest point and make a mark, put in boiling water, watch for highest point and make a mark.

Divide the space between the mark by however many you want (real life, 100)

And bam, you got your thermometer that can be used.

You don't use a thermometer to determine the temperature of ice and boiling water. You use ice and boiling water to set an abritary number on a tube full of mercury and call it a thermometer.

As for calibrating, it's dead easy, just repeat the experiment with another thermometer. It doesn't matter how pure the quicksilver or how much energy is actually transfered, that's not what you measure. What you measure is how high the mercury goes in a tube when put next to ice and boiling water. That's all. And then you put a 0 next to the lowest point and a 100 next to the highest.

[Chilingsworth]

Seriously ? On the thermometer thing you got it backward.
What you do is take a sealed tube containing mercury (quicksilver is a thing in dnd) and put that tube against ice, watch for the lowest point and make a mark, put in boiling water, watch for highest point and make a mark.

Divide the space between the mark by however many you want (real life, 100)

And bam, you got your thermometer that can be used.

You don't use a thermometer to determine the temperature of ice and boiling water. You use ice and boiling water to set an abritary number on a tube full of mercury and call it a thermometer.

As for calibrating, it's dead easy, just repeat the experiment with another thermometer. It doesn't matter how pure the quicksilver or how much energy is actually transfered, that's not what you measure. What you measure is how high the mercury goes in a tube when put next to ice and boiling water. That's all. And then you put a 0 next to the lowest point and a 100 next to the highest.

That's basically my plan.