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Gnomish Wanderer
2013-01-27, 12:58 AM
Hello Playground! What I'd like to talk to you about today is, as the title so cleverly alludes, 'The Art of Getting Hit'! On attacks, AC, and damage, the core of most battle systems.

Recently I was reading a book, or watching a movie, or experiencing some other facet of fantasy media that I am oft to do, when I realized, "Combat is lethal!" The thought, while simple and outright obvious, has been eating away at my enjoyment of most systems of battle in the roleplaying games I've played lately.

Combat, in real life, is... visceral. It's organic, it's real. The way it's abstracted into roleplaying games for simplicity feels like it takes away from it all. I want a system that has very low HP, one good blow could kill a player, but they have the armor and dodge skills necessary to survive battle after battle that wears them down without turning into a death spiral. I want resting to make more sense. I want battle to feel less like a numbers game and more like a fight.

The problem is, I don't know how to do this. The systems I've seen can't support a system of fighting that would allow for my dream system to come true without being overpowered or unwieldy.

I know that abstractions like D&D are supposed to cover this. 'HP isn't really a measurement of damage before dead but also tiredness and armor toughness and ect.' But I don't want the system to make any more assumptions about whether or not the players are fixing their armor during an eight hour rest or that they are assumed to bind their wounds. I don't want to make ad hoc rulings for these things either, I want them to be a part of the game.

Is there any such system that could meet my weird and unruly desires? What ind of system do you think would make more sense to really simulate combat in such a way as to be funner, more intense, more lethal, less 'death spiral'y, and just better overall? What's your opinion on all this?

Asheram
2013-01-27, 01:41 AM
The shadowrun system takes a while to learn, and it's a Lot of dice rolling.

But it's Very deadly and you get more negatives from being injured.

Here's the Quick Start (http://www.shadowrun4.com/wp-content/uploads/Downloads/Shadowrun%20Quick-Start%20Rules.pdf) if you're interested.

Telltale
2013-01-27, 01:43 AM
White Wolf "Storyteller" system functions liked that-it even had damaged/injured characters gain negatives on actions for when injured. Depending on race-you picked it was very possible to die with one attack-and was often very quick brutal combat.

Gnomish Wanderer
2013-01-27, 01:47 AM
Ay, Shadowrun is one of my favorite systems, maybe in part because of the combat lethality? The one thing I dislike about it, unfortunately, IS the death spiral system. I don't want my characters to get progressively less able to save themselves as they start to die, but I want the battle to tax some kind of resource.

The thing is, I want a mace hit to the face to smash up a helmet or crush a skull. I want a sword through the chest to lead to major bleeding and/or coughing up blood. I want my party to have options in battle that'll feel like 'Life or Death' choices for their own defenses, but I don't want it to really be lethal enough to be unfun or to keep them from trying things. I don't know if what I want exists.

Maybe some kind of defense system that works like Rock Paper Scissors or a card game or something? I just don't want it to suddenly get too complicated.

Edit: Which is to say, it's not that I DON'T want a Death Spiral system (the player character gets weaker as they take more damage) I just don't want that to be the primary factor of the HP system. Maybe characters only have a low amount of HP and losing any of that results in a death spiral, but the point of the combat system would be trying to avoid taking damage to that small pool of HP through defenses and the like.

ArcturusV
2013-01-27, 02:04 AM
I think one option that tends to get overlooked in Robotech/RIFTs with the HP/SDC/MDC system.

Mostly because it is STUPIDLY broken to get recockulously unintended SDC amounts even at first level. But the theory behind it is sound.

You don't have a lot of HP. And when you take HP damage, you start to get disabled in ways like bleeding, broken limbs, etc.

SDC is basically supposed to represent "toughness". The example they tend to list is that a trained boxer might be able to take dozens, even hundreds of blows that an untrained man would have succumbed to without any serious effect.

The only problem I have with it is that SDC works in weird ways (And is so easy to inflate). To the point where eventually they actually had to write a rule saying "If you jump on a live grenade you cannot just dust yourself off and go "it's only 60 SDC", no, you are dead. Plain and simple."

A typical houserule I went with was that SDC only applies based on what you are equipped with.

Unarmored? SDC applies to hand to hand combat.

Primitive armor? SDC applies to ancient weapons like swords and clubs.

High tech armor? Kevlar Vests, Dragon Skin, etc? It applies to handguns, rifles, etc.

Worked well enough.

Reltzik
2013-01-27, 02:13 AM
I've been playing around with something to exploit this, actually.

The problem with making a combat system with realistic lethality is that you want PC survivability. Players don't have fun if they have to draw up a new character every three fights. In addition, you want something that plays reasonably quickly, is reasonably balanced, and comes across as, well, reasonable.

The trick, I decided, was an energy/fatigue system. People will defend themselves. This takes energy. I'm not talking about magical energy, I'm talking about physical oomph. A parry, a dodge, a withdrawal, an adjustment of a shield, even walking around in heavy armor. In addition to lethal, combat is physically exhausting. (And also emotionally draining, which can turn into the same thing.)

I decided to have two resource pools, focus and energy, both of which were used for both defenses and attacks. Focus deals with momentary attention span and situational awareness, and is used for precise, economical defense and attack. If you're parrying by flicking your rapier a quarter-inch to the left, or dodging by side-stepping three centimeters back and letting the blow miss by a hair, you're using focus. If your attack consists of slipping your blade between a precise gap in the armor or a flick of a poison needle, you're using focus. Focus is also used for picking out threats and perception in general. It recharges quickly, with a good chunk of it restored every round.

Energy is the opposite. It's used for impressive bursts of power. It parries with violent swings that leaves the opponent's arm numb. It dodges by diving for cover. It attacks with a double-handed sword brought down overhead after an immense leap. There's nothing economical about energy usage. Energy loss represents fatigue, and takes several minutes of resting to restore. You can do this in a pitched battle, but only if the fighting's happening on the army's other flank a hundred yards away. On the other hand, energy-use is far more effective than focus-use. Every defense will have two versions, focus and energy, and will automatically default to focus unless energy is required.

The way I see it, most attacks either miss or get defended against. This uses up focus and/or energy in the defender. When one or the other drops too low, openings to land actual blows present themselves. Thus, most attacks are survivable by defending against them, but they set the stage for one or two to get through, and one or two is all it takes.

This also makes a good resource for a magic system, especially because it establishes the same mechanic for physical and magical attacks. Fireball is SO an energy-using spell, and Suggestion is SO focus. By using the same mechanic, we have an easier time imposing balance.

I was thinking every player could have five or six ready defenses (depending on skillsets and gear) and attack modes, possibly as cards in their hand. They see the attack coming, choose a defense, and reveal it. Some will work better against some attacks, some worse.

I haven't finished this system yet.

TuggyNE
2013-01-27, 03:03 AM
The trick, I decided, was an energy/fatigue system. People will defend themselves. This takes energy. I'm not talking about magical energy, I'm talking about physical oomph. A parry, a dodge, a withdrawal, an adjustment of a shield, even walking around in heavy armor. In addition to lethal, combat is physically exhausting. (And also emotionally draining, which can turn into the same thing.)

I was thinking along roughly the same lines for my own system; HP itself is a very slowly-scaling number (e.g., a D&D style of leveling might go from 12 while fighting kobolds to 20 while fighting demon lords), but Stamina is used to defend against most attacks of various sorts, and is both a larger pool and much more rapidly replenished. (Minutes or hours, instead of days or weeks.)

Stamina is also used for attacking, casting spells, gathering energy for spells, and can be traded in to better resist attacks on the mind.


I decided to have two resource pools, focus and energy, both of which were used for both defenses and attacks. Focus deals with momentary attention span and situational awareness, and is used for precise, economical defense and attack. If you're parrying by flicking your rapier a quarter-inch to the left, or dodging by side-stepping three centimeters back and letting the blow miss by a hair, you're using focus. If your attack consists of slipping your blade between a precise gap in the armor or a flick of a poison needle, you're using focus. Focus is also used for picking out threats and perception in general. It recharges quickly, with a good chunk of it restored every round.

Energy is the opposite. It's used for impressive bursts of power. It parries with violent swings that leaves the opponent's arm numb. It dodges by diving for cover. It attacks with a double-handed sword brought down overhead after an immense leap. There's nothing economical about energy usage. Energy loss represents fatigue, and takes several minutes of resting to restore. You can do this in a pitched battle, but only if the fighting's happening on the army's other flank a hundred yards away. On the other hand, energy-use is far more effective than focus-use. Every defense will have two versions, focus and energy, and will automatically default to focus unless energy is required.

Intriguing. I hadn't really thought of that distinction before.


I haven't finished this system yet.

Heh, mine either. :smalltongue:

kieza
2013-01-27, 03:41 AM
How about a system where, in order to actually damage someone, you first have to get past several layers of defenses? This is me brainstorming, so bear with me:

For example, a basic warrior could have a layer of "dodge," a layer of "shield block" and a layer of "armor." You could, theoretically, do damage with just one attack with a sword, but you'd have to succeed on separate rolls to get through each of the three defenses, making it unlikely. Alternately, you could spend a couple of rounds peeling his defenses--say, you use one round to pin him down so he can't dodge, and one to knock his shield out of the way. Then you could try an attack to damage him, and have a pretty good chance to get through his armor (I can't think of a way to remove somebody's armor, so maybe armor-defense can't be removed?)

As you gained levels, you could either get more layers of defenses (say, add a layer of "parry", or a second layer of "dodge" to represent being really agile) or you could improve your attacks for dealing with certain defenses--say, if your attack doesn't make it through a layer of "shield," it automatically knocks it out of the way.

Certain defenses could automatically succeed (or fail) against certain types of attack. Area attacks (fireball) would automatically get through "dodge" or "parry", for example.

With a sufficiently detailed system, you'd have multiple routes to success per monster. Example using the warrior from before: you could go the route from before of stripping the defenses one by one...or you could have the rogue sneak attack him, ignoring all of them (maybe you have to defeat his "alertness" defense?), or the fighter could sunder his shield, the mage could freeze him in place, and the archer could take advantage of the opening to just shoot him.

Ninjadeadbeard
2013-01-27, 04:47 AM
Hands down the best "Realistic" system I've used is the D&D Wounds/Vitality variant system. Players have Hit Points equal to their Constitution score. Unless their Con increases, their HP never will. Every level, they roll their normal Hit Die + Con Mod to get their Vitality Points.

Vitality is consumed by someone connecting with an attack, and can be seen as a combination of "Hero-Shield" and innate luck/talent/stamina. Vitality represents the character's ability to turn a death blow into a near-miss, often being merely grazed by an attack or taking a solid blow to their shield, etc, etc.

Hit Points are only used once Vitality is used up, and represents actual, physical damage caused by an attack. Taking a sword to the chest. Getting your knee caved in. Taking a mace to the face. I also would recommend inflicting a character with fatigue if they take an HP hit.

On a Critical Hit, you do not increase damage at all. Instead, a Critical Hit's damage bypasses Vitality entirely and goes straight to Hit Points. This means that no matter how powerful a warrior or mage might be, a lucky hit can still be devastating. I also recommend lopping off limbs on Critical Hits.

My players adore this system and have repeatedly told me never to go back to the normal rules.

1337 b4k4
2013-01-27, 05:19 AM
Take a look at traveller (specifically the classic edition, though most editions including the most recent mongoose are pretty similar. Your stats are your HP, combat is quick and deadly, but from what I understand, not as death spirally as other systems.

That said, if you want to home brew something up, I would examine the HP vs stamina system that a lot of games (and people here) have used. But I would take it a step further. Make stamina a function of both HP and the relevant stat to the activity. That is to say, a pro boxer might be able to go many more rounds than a common man (stamina vs hand to hand combat), but would likely fall apart in a sword or firefight. Similarly, your best trained marksman is likely to find himself out classed in a one on one fist fight. So while a character HP is a fixed measure of health, their stamina is fluid and changing depending on the circumstances. This may be more complicated than its worth.

As a final note, combat is a death spiral, the longer you go, the harder it is to be effective and survive. Training is about slowing the spiral, not overcoming it. As has been pointed out, this is not always fun for the player, so if you're taking a setting where combat is a primary resolution for the challenges involved, I recommend sticking with the abstracted D&D type combat (which can still be high lethal as any OSR person will tell you). If combat is simply going to be one resolution tool out of many, a death spiral is much more palatable. Lastly temper your decision based on how long it takes to build a character. Long drawn out cg means players wan their characters to survive longer. Sort and simple means the characters are more "disposable" and can afford to succumb to realistic combat.

Khedrac
2013-01-27, 05:51 AM
Basic Roleplaying System with hit locations - the Chaosium system, i.e. old Runequest does this OK, though combat may be too lethal for what you want. The new RuneQuest attempts to do the same (they had to re-write the system as they were not licensing BRS from Chaosium) and should work as well or better.

Worth taking a look at if you can just to get ideas.

endoperez
2013-01-27, 05:56 AM
Ars Magica does this, but it's not known for its good combat system. It probably wouldn't work if heroically fighting was supposed to be a big part of the game. Any way, you might find the basic idea interesting.


In Ars Magica, an attack is a contested roll. Attacker rolls Skill+D10, defender rolls Skill+D10. If the attacker's roll is higher, the difference is added to the damage.

So in two consequent rounds, with equal stats... a roll of 5 vs 4 deals X+1 damage. Next round the rolls are 10 and 1, and the dealt damage is now X+9.

However, in addition to that, Ars Magica uses exploding dice. Again, I don't remember the exact details, but it goes something like this:

You roll a 1, and it's considered a fail. The roll is considered a 0, and you lose some situational bonuses you might otherwise have had - you stumbled, hit your head on a door frame, something like that. I think your base skill is still calculated, but the opponent is most likely going to get a really good hit...

If you roll a 10, you will roll again and the result is doubled. Roll or 1 is now 2, 3 is 6, 8 is 16... a second 10 quadruples the next result. 10, 10, 5 is 20. 10,10,8 is 32.


So the case from above, a roll of 10 and 1, would actually become something like 10,7 -> 14 vs 1 -> 0.


Oh, and Ars Magica doesn't use hitpoints. It uses wounds. Wounds confer penalties to all further rolls... Instant death occurs only at high differences - a difference of 25 or 30, for human-sized things, for example. However, if you're scoring a minor wound on the enemy every round, he gets a stacking -1 each round. Since this affects the combat rolls and increases the skill difference, whiich increases damage, he soon starts taking medium wounds that come at -2 or -3 each, and death follows soon after.

Amphetryon
2013-01-27, 02:01 PM
This is just me spitballing it here, but what about allowing armor to be progressively damaged through normal combat, rather than relying on specific Sunder rules or similar? Heavier armor could have more HP (or whatever your preferred system calls them), while simultaneously becoming more cumbersome/tiring to wear as its original form becomes damaged by maces/axes/depleted unobtanium bullet rounds. This could make longer fights, and more frequent fights, an increasingly dangerous proposition without directly compromising the Character. You'd avoid the "death spiral" issue in large part, while increasing the 'grit' factor of combat, at the cost of forcing more resources invested into repairing or replacing armor.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-01-27, 02:28 PM
The thing is, I want a mace hit to the face to smash up a helmet or crush a skull. I want a sword through the chest to lead to major bleeding and/or coughing up blood. I want my party to have options in battle that'll feel like 'Life or Death' choices for their own defenses, but I don't want it to really be lethal enough to be unfun or to keep them from trying things. I don't know if what I want exists.

Maybe try Fate? You've got very small "health" bars, but you can reduce the damage coming in by placing aspects on your character-- things like "Cracked Rib" or "Blood in the Eyes." Depending on how much damage you cancel out like this, the aspects can stick around for a while, letting enemies exploit them until your character has the in-game time to recover.

Scow2
2013-01-27, 02:37 PM
Savage Worlds comes to mind for me, but it relies a bit too much on stun-locking, though. Also, it lacks decent defensive options.

Ozfer
2013-01-27, 02:53 PM
Burning Wheel is a fairly lethal system, and it has amazing mechanics that support story as well. If that doesn't work for you, I'll tell you if I ever finish the system I'm writing :smallwink:.

Gamgee
2013-01-27, 03:14 PM
I can add in a concur for Burning Wheel, it is a fairly complex system though.

Grinner
2013-01-27, 03:15 PM
There's a wuxia game called A Wanderer's Romance (http://www.stargazergames.eu/games/a-wanderers-romance/) which, although I don't really like its combat that much, introduces some very interesting ideas.

Combat occurs through the usage of "styles". If a character is hit, damage is calculated by rolling a d6 and subtracting his armor rating. Depending on the outcome of the roll, various effects may occur. A result of one or two will Stagger him, while a result of 3 will Weaken him. Four means defeat, and five or six means death. There are no hit points; it takes only one good blow to drop a character.

Interestingly, this mechanic makes a good argument for having a high armor rating, but a high armor rating comes with numerous drawbacks. In other words, each choice regarding your character has distinct tactical advantages; there are no obvious "Don't suck" taxes.

Odin the Ignoble
2013-01-27, 03:32 PM
I'd try out another system.

Hero has "HP" separated into Body (Bone crunching life threatening damage), Stun (KO, non leathal damage) and Endurance( basically what is sounds like, with most actions having an Endurance cost.)It's also got rules for bleeding out, and disabling limbs, and damage modifiers based on where you git the .

Instead of having an "Armor Class" everyone has a Defensive Combat Value, and some amount of Defense or damage negation. It allows characters who are good at not getting hit, like ninjas or fencers to play very differently then characters who get hit all the time, but can take the damage like armored knights, dragons or bricks.

There's dozens of other rules that make Hero leaps and bounds above Dnd type systems. Hero makes Dnd look like playing shoots and ladders.




Another good system for "Visceral combat" is the Dark Heresy series. While it's not as compatible with fantasy or other genre's it is very brutal. There's even rules for taking a gut wound and having to choose between holding your viscera in with one hand, or using both hands in combat and risking having you intestines spill out through the whole in your abdomen. It's a little on the random side, but it is visceral. Literally.

Guizonde
2013-01-27, 06:58 PM
a guy i know plays warhammer fantasy 2nd ed. with a small twist.

in the rulebook is included an optional rule for fights (namely, increasing the already colossal amount of danger). bypass normal hits entirely. always roll on the critical damage tables.

he played a game of skavens with 4 people. first fight had one player chopped in two by an adventurer. a chaos horror ate two.

3 hour game, and 16 rerolls later (they played a warband of skavens, the dm had planned it beforehand), the players wised up and started acting like skavens. run away first, kill everything to bits only if the risk is truly minimal.

i've never played this variant, but it is pretty brutal. Conan the barbarian is another system where getting a halberd to the face leaves scars. might interest you too.

Nepenthe
2013-01-27, 09:01 PM
...Snip...

...Snip...
I fully endorse both these lines of thought. They could probably even be combined without too much trouble...

holywhippet
2013-01-27, 09:45 PM
You could look at the dark heresy system. As I recall you have a certain number of wound points. Once they are gone you look up the damage you take on a table, some of the results are that you die.

Reltzik
2013-01-28, 12:11 AM
I fully endorse both these lines of thought. They could probably even be combined without too much trouble...

Hmmm.... I'd be up for some PMing on the subject if Kieza is.

Totally Guy
2013-01-28, 05:06 AM
The specifics of Burning Wheel as it is a bit complicated:

First of all the game does not expect every fight to go into this level of detail. Most fights should be resolved using the two much lighter alternatives to this set up. This one is used for the climactic duels and facing the personal rivals.

Weapon lengths are where we start if we have different lengths of weapons. For the spear guy versus the knife man if they're far apart the knife man has a disadvantage and if they're close together the spear guy has a disadvantage. To find out how close they start out they both roll their speed but the spear guy has an advantage to that roll as he's got the longer weapon. This roll is really important in the right circumstances!

Then you choose what your character does in fighting the fight.

Each character has a reflexes rating. About 3 or 4 is average. And this is the number of things you can do in an exchange of fighting.

If I've got a rating of 4 I might say, "First I'm going ready a counterattack, then I'm going to strike at you, then I'm going to set up for really hitting hard with a great strike and finally the great strike will connect."

You might have a rating 3 and you might say, "First I'm going to try to avoid anything you throw at me, then I'll strike at you then finally I'm going to ready a counterattack."

Of course these interact differently depending on what's happening against what. So the above things get marked in secret on your fight scripting sheet. It's like the rock paper scissors thing.

The first thing happens. Counterattack versus Avoid. The table tells me that I wait to counter an attack that doesn't come and you're trying to avoid and attack that I don't make. Nothing happens for this first one.

Then the second thing happens. I strike at you and you strike at me! Both those things happen. With neither of us defending in any way the roll is really easy. Armour is really good in this game, we'd both roll it if neccessary to see if it saves us but it'll have a chance to be damaged in doing so.

Then the third thing happens. You prepare a counterstrike for an attack that doesn't come as I raise my weapon aggressively.

The fourth thing happens. You've run out of reflexes so the counterstrike ends giving me an easy roll to make and my great strike gives me a bonus to bypassing your armour!

You'd choose where you'd be hit. And I'd need to spend successes (and potentially lose damage) to move it (to somewhere on you that is less armoured).

At some point someone gets significantly hurt and when that does that person tests their steel to see if they can continue to act freely despite their injury. If this is failed the character panics and must chose to either hesitate in shock, run away, fall and surrender or become unconscious. This happens a lot and stops the system being totally lethal for player characters. Most fights end with injury rather than death.

Each hit is an injury and different character have different tolerances to injury.

I might have
1-2 didn't even hurt.
3-4 superficial wound
5-6 light wound
7 moderate wound
8 severe wound
9 traumatic wound and anything higher just kills me.

Your damage might be a 1 success hit hurts me at 4. 3 success hit: 7. 5 success hit: 10.

And those injuries heal really slowly!

Good fighters rely on every one of their 6 stats to the point where having one thing really high does not justify having one thing lower than where it needs to be.

It sounds really complicated and it kind of is. But here's the thing: you play with this from the lowest of the characters to the most powerful and it doesn't get more complicated. The tactics shift as you play to your stengths and get better at those things but you also run the risk of becoming predictable which is quite dangerous in this game.

dariathalon
2013-01-28, 09:33 AM
I think your problem is that you want two contradictory things. Simplicity and realism. These may not seem contradictory at first glance, but I've never found a system that handles both well.

That said, have you ever looked at GURPS? Some people find it too complicated, but it does handle what you're looking for very well.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-01-28, 10:34 AM
Seconding Burning Wheel, which doesn't usually espouse fights to the death. Generally, one side concedes before they take too many wounds, which take a long time to heal. That, and taking a wound requires you to make a Steel test to resist your body's desire to seize up in shock. That ends a lot of fights.

FATE would also be a good fit. You take Stress in combat (which is like exertions, etc.) and can mitigate Stress by taking on Consequences. Consequences don't give you a flat penalty, but can be "compelled" to put you at the disadvantage (while giving you a consolation "Fate Point"). Of course, you can only take so many Consequences, so getting beat up will make it easier for you to get taken out in future fights.

I'll also mention Tenra Bansho Zero--a Japanese RPG (recently translated into English) that should be out in PDF very soon. It has a Death anti-spiral: you get hit, you take that damage to your (very scant) Vitality, which is your HP. A lot of attacks could potentially take you out in one or two shots, if you're going off of Vitality alone. That's why you check off wound boxes. They absorb Vitality damage, which keeps you in the fight.

Also, you get a bonus to your rolls, according to the highest wound you've marked off. So, the more you get hurt, the stronger you get. It's hardly realistic, but at the same time...it offers a chance for combat that's somewhere between nicely cinematic and hardcore.

Joe the Rat
2013-01-28, 12:04 PM
Looks like all of the ones I know well have been hit upon already.


Hands down the best "Realistic" system I've used is the D&D Wounds/Vitality variant system. Players have Hit Points equal to their Constitution score.>snip<

Vitality is consumed by someone connecting with an attack, and can be seen as a combination of "Hero-Shield" and innate luck/talent/stamina. Vitality represents the character's ability to turn a death blow into a near-miss, often being merely grazed by an attack or taking a solid blow to their shield, etc, etc.

Hit Points are only used once Vitality is used up, and represents actual, physical damage caused by an attack.



I think one option that tends to get overlooked in Robotech/RIFTs with the HP/SDC/MDC system.

You don't have a lot of HP. And when you take HP damage, you start to get disabled in ways like bleeding, broken limbs, etc.

SDC is basically supposed to represent "toughness". The example they tend to list is that a trained boxer might be able to take dozens, even hundreds of blows that an untrained man would have succumbed to without any serious effect.

I knew the HP/Vitality system sounded familiar. Combined with the DR armor variant, and possibly subbing in defense rolls rather than static AC, you've got everything but the wound penalties. Which is basically how Palladium works (roll to defend, dodging archers keeps you busy, attacks below armor rating means the armor eats the hit instead of you... but worn armor only has so much SDC). SDC recovers rather quickly - not quite 4e resting speed, but enough to be salient.


On a Critical Hit, you do not increase damage at all. Instead, a Critical Hit's damage bypasses Vitality entirely and goes straight to Hit Points. This means that no matter how powerful a warrior or mage might be, a lucky hit can still be devastating. I also recommend lopping off limbs on Critical Hits.

Now there's a good houserule for Palladium (assuming SDC would soak the hit otherwise).

rorikdude12
2013-01-28, 12:31 PM
I suggest GURPS.

Waddacku
2013-01-28, 01:37 PM
This is basically the entire point of Riddle of Steel. Maybe you should check that out.

Draz74
2013-01-28, 04:59 PM
I'm fairly proud of the Vitality/Injury system I've cooked up for CRE8.
The attacker declares an attack and rolls Impact to determine how dangerous the attack is. If the Impact beats the target's remaining Vitality, the target is Off-Guard.

The target rolls a Defense Save against the Accuracy Rating of the attack.

If the target is not Off-Guard, and the Defense Save succeeds, then the attack is a miss, and has no primary effect.

If the target is Off-Guard or the Defense Save fails, then the attack is a hit, and deals damage (equal to Impact) to the target's Vitality.

If the target is Off-Guard and the Defense Save fails, the attack is a critical; it not only deals damage, but the attacker may inflict a hazard on the target.

Finally, if the attack Impact was greater than the target's Armor Value, the attack has a Secondary Effect:
Miss: The target takes 2 Attrition Damage from the exertion of avoiding the attack.
Hit: The attacker may inflict a hazard on the target.
Critical: The target is immediately Dropped.

Hazards are basically status conditions that you can put on your enemies. Which hazards are available depends on circumstances, and generally increases as a battle goes on.

Of course some Hazards represent a pretty standard sequential track of "death spiral" conditions: Wounded (which inflicts a -2 penalty to Saves), Dying (which basically sucks enough that it's usually wise to surrender), Dropped (which means you're out of the fight), and Dead.

However, this is only piece of the great variety of available hazards. Hazards can also grant more temporary advantages, such as "you lose your next move action," "you are knocked prone," or "you are knocked across the room" (thank you Cave Troll vs. Gimli). In fact, these are often easier to inflict than Wounded. Hazards can also have a myriad of more special effects if the attack was made using a special ability, such as an offensive spell.
TL;DR: This system's intent (which seems to be working out reasonably well in playtests) is to make battles go quickly enough that they feel realistically dangerous, while at the same time ensuring PCs that, under normal circumstances, they're in no danger of getting taken out of the fight immediately (rocket-tag style). Also to make serious injuries feel realistically nasty, without being so harmful that they turn the game into rocket tag on their own. Also to encourage cinematic variety in attacks' effects.

Nepenthe
2013-01-28, 05:01 PM
Hmmm.... I'd be up for some PMing on the subject if Kieza is.I'd love to hear if anything comes of this. I was watching Spartacus: Vengeance the other day and bemoaning the lack of a good system for strategic, visceral gladiatorial combat. This may well be the solution.

artstsym
2013-01-28, 10:15 PM
While I wouldn't necessarily recommend the system as a whole, one of the more interesting variants I've seen on this idea is the Naruto D20 system, wherein damage is high, hit points are very low and healing is so rare as to be non-existent in most parties. The primary way one deals with attacks in ND20 is by mitigation, using ninja tricks to retcon the attack as having hit a fake clone or mud wall or something different. While these are powerful abilities, they are strictly limited by increasing DCs, reduced effectiveness against higher level opponents and in several cases flat limits. While it works best in its own setting (ie: ninjas), it's at least worth looking at to get an idea of the options available.

Doorhandle
2013-01-28, 10:57 PM
I'm toying with the idea of making every attack a called shot of some sort: most attacks won't kill you instantly or make a permanent death spiral, but they make the next attack easier to slide in, and a critical hit to the head WILL kill you.

Dsurion
2013-01-29, 02:43 PM
I'm fairly proud of the Vitality/Injury system I've cooked up for CRE8.
The attacker declares an attack and rolls Impact to determine how dangerous the attack is. If the Impact beats the target's remaining Vitality, the target is Off-Guard.

The target rolls a Defense Save against the Accuracy Rating of the attack.

If the target is not Off-Guard, and the Defense Save succeeds, then the attack is a miss, and has no primary effect.

If the target is Off-Guard or the Defense Save fails, then the attack is a hit, and deals damage (equal to Impact) to the target's Vitality.

If the target is Off-Guard and the Defense Save fails, the attack is a critical; it not only deals damage, but the attacker may inflict a hazard on the target.

Finally, if the attack Impact was greater than the target's Armor Value, the attack has a Secondary Effect:
Miss: The target takes 2 Attrition Damage from the exertion of avoiding the attack.
Hit: The attacker may inflict a hazard on the target.
Critical: The target is immediately Dropped.

Hazards are basically status conditions that you can put on your enemies. Which hazards are available depends on circumstances, and generally increases as a battle goes on.

Of course some Hazards represent a pretty standard sequential track of "death spiral" conditions: Wounded (which inflicts a -2 penalty to Saves), Dying (which basically sucks enough that it's usually wise to surrender), Dropped (which means you're out of the fight), and Dead.

However, this is only piece of the great variety of available hazards. Hazards can also grant more temporary advantages, such as "you lose your next move action," "you are knocked prone," or "you are knocked across the room" (thank you Cave Troll vs. Gimli). In fact, these are often easier to inflict than Wounded. Hazards can also have a myriad of more special effects if the attack was made using a special ability, such as an offensive spell.
TL;DR: This system's intent (which seems to be working out reasonably well in playtests) is to make battles go quickly enough that they feel realistically dangerous, while at the same time ensuring PCs that, under normal circumstances, they're in no danger of getting taken out of the fight immediately (rocket-tag style). Also to make serious injuries feel realistically nasty, without being so harmful that they turn the game into rocket tag on their own. Also to encourage cinematic variety in attacks' effects.This sounds very interesting. Would you mind expanding on it?

Draz74
2013-01-30, 01:37 AM
This sounds very interesting. Would you mind expanding on it?

I'd love to. I just didn't want to fill the thread with tooting my own horn if people didn't want to read it. :smallcool:

What do you want to know, specifically? My best guess that you might have in mind is more details on Hazards ... so, here's the default Hazard Menu. Special abilities can, of course, add more options to the ones here.
Requirement: This attack is an opportunity attack.
Effect: Clobber: negate the target's current action.

Requirement: The target is not currently performing an action.
Effect: Clobber: the target is Staggered (i.e. loses its move action) on its next turn.

Requirement: You are bigger than the target.
Effect: Push the target a number of squares equal to the difference in your size categories.

Requirement: You are bigger than the target, and the target is Staggered.
Effect: Knock the target prone.

Requirement: The target is Off-Guard, or the target's Save against the attack triggered Peril (i.e. rolled really low; how low depends on the weapon used).
Effect: Make the target Wounded.

Requirement: The target is Off-Guard and Wounded.
Effect: Inflict Dying on the target.

Requirement: The target is Off-Guard and Dying.
Effect: Drop the target.