Coup de Grace: When is it appropriate for a DM to do it?

[scarmiglionne4]

What types of creatures would take the opportunity to Coup de Grace a helpless defender? In what types of situations would it be considered appropriate for a creature to take the time to stop and finish off a foe?

[hymer]

Depends on the NPC and their motives. Say the ruthless and evil team of cleric and rogue have it as their signature move that the cleric casts hold person, and the rogue does a CdG. Make it known beforehand - now it's perfectly acceptable, as the players should be expecting it and can take precautions.
On the other hand, CdG'ing someone who is already bleeding on the ground is probably overkill, unless the enemy is worried about magical healing. They'd probably be more interested in looting an unconscious character than slitting his throat if they can't find a way to contribute to the fight.
On the other hand, if an NPC is really afraid of/hates a PC, he may (like PCs are wont to) take the extra precaution.

Regardless, the reason for a CdG should be in character and follow the NPC's view and knowledge.

All that said, I advocate using it as little as possible. Only do it when it's extremely obvious that it should be done. It's a lot like Save or Die spells in that overuse cheapens the dramatic effect and the tension too much.

[Crustypeanut]

Wouldn't some creatures, like Ghouls in particular, use it often? As their main focus is to knock out then eat that person right on the spot in the middle of battle.

I've heard it used often with ghouls/ghasts.. and if the players know they're fighting them, they should know that its a common tactic. I actually was planning on using it on one of my characters when he got paralyzed by a ghoul (Silly rogue, stop trying to be a tank), but luckily for him, the rest of the group killed the ghoul one moment before it got the chance.

[Twilightwyrm]

Wouldn't some creatures, like Ghouls in particular, use it often? As their main focus is to knock out then eat that person right on the spot in the middle of battle.

I've heard it used often with ghouls/ghasts.. and if the players know they're fighting them, they should know that its a common tactic. I actually was planning on using it on one of my characters when he got paralyzed by a ghoul (Silly rogue, stop trying to be a tank), but luckily for him, the rest of the group killed the ghoul one moment before it got the chance.

This is not strictly the case. First, ghouls are established to be intelligence undead, meaning that they have at least some consideration for self-preservation. You are of course free to establish otherwise, but doing so carried some rather serious implications concerning the ghoul's consideration for their own self-preservation (attempting to jump from one cliff face, no matter the chances of success, to get at a potential meal, for instance). Note that flesh eating zombies would have no such compunction, so this would be perfectly reasonable.
The second thing to take into account is, like you said, the ghoul is likely to try and drag off the downed target first. So presumably, the ghoul will start dragging the downed character away from the fight, signaling the rest of the party that they might want to kill it before it kills their party member.
And finally, I would wonder why the ghoul would bother to "finish off" the character before attempting to eat them. Ghouls are established to have no compunctions about eating someone alive, so why would they worry about making them dead first? So, on the one hand, I would imagine a ghoul attempting to "eat" a downed character might be most likely to simply make bite attacks every round while they are down. On the other hand, it is I suppose entirely possible, and not unreasonable, for you as the DM to differentiate between simply "biting" and "eating". Perhaps, for you, the ghoul attempting to "eat" you is a much more involved affair, as it will be attempting to tear off mouthfuls of flesh, tear through ribs with its claws, and the like. You might rule that, however unintentionally, this is best represented as a coup de grace, rather than a normal, or somehow modified, attack. So I suppose on this point YMMV, but I know I would tend towards the simple biting, if only to allow an already downed character a better chance to escape. (Though, if you are going for a more gruesome, and lethal, campaign, the coup de grace would likely be the better option)

[DonDuckie]

Any creature who considers it a higher priority to kill a helpless opponent than to focus the attacks on another threat.

- A downed and adjacent opponent is the only target within reach(charge or ranged distance) so stretching the battle a little makes no immediate difference.

- An assassin has downed her target with poison/spell/whatever an moves to CdG to finish her target. And thereafter escape and claim her reward/pay. Rather than further risking combat.

- A serious threat(eg. an adventurer) is momentarily helpless, and the sound thing is to finish him off immediately. This is the one that will really annoy the players, especially the ghoul touched elven wizard with a poor fortitude save modifer.

Coup de Grace is a tactic. In a world where enemies easily can be momentarilly incapacitated, it is a very good tactic for any intelligent and/or trained single combatant or group.

Players should not feel that there succesful tactics are their's to use alone. This is one reason I don't ban(or frown upon) powerplay as long as everyone is having fun.(Also my players couldn't powerplay to save their own or their characters' lives, even if they followed a guide.)

[Flickerdart]

Coup de Grace in general only makes sense in a few contexts, some of which people have already touched upon:

The opportunity is fleeting: The target is under a hold person spell, the enemy has demonstrated that they have and use magical healing, or the group is falling back and wants to do some lasting damage. If a group believes that they will rout or incapacitate the entire enemy group, there's absolutely no reason to stop and CdG someone that's already down.

There are no more threats: When a dragon goes down, and a bunch of kobolds yet remain, the battle is already over and you might as well finish the dragon off before killing the kobolds. A similar scenario applies to a party of, say, Wizard, Ninja, Monk, and Samurai.

Its allies are far away: This is fairly similar to the other two. If the unconscious guy is right here, and everyone else is a hundred feet that-a way (either regrouping or just there), it makes sense to spare an action to finish off the guy. Of course, it makes even more sense to drink a potion, reload a crossbow, or do literally anything else that would actually improve your chances of winning the battle. Also consider that an intelligent foe might take the unconscious character hostage and demand the surrender of its party members, which accomplishes much more than just stabbing 'em in the face.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I've delivered a CDG to a PC before, he made the save but that entire session really left a lasting impression. They were going through a ruined tower on an island, populated as I'd recommended in several posts in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252566). The party was around 4th or 5th level, they were extremely strong so I wasn't pulling any punches. There was a Jermaline Druid (Ashbound, Greenbound Summoning, Natural Bond) with a Warbeast Fleshraker; a Mineral Warrior Crusader; and a DFI Savage Bard with Wild Cohort for a Magebred Warbeast Riding Dog.

They were in the room full of Grells and Darkness. I think there were around a dozen Grells, and the Crusader and both animals charged up the stairs while the Bard and Druid tried hanging back. At least four Grells went after those two, and the Savage Bard got paralyzed. The Grell that paralyzed him didn't get touched before its next turn came around, so it reared up and sunk its beak into the top of his head in a perfect CDG. It did 16 damage, and he managed to make the DC 26 Fort save to survive it, but since then there was a running joke that his character had brain damage because that player happens to constantly have bad ideas.

The encounter before that one was in the basement of the tower, the Ooze Mephits had an Otyugh lurking in the muck so the fight would actually be a challenge for them. Their animal companions didn't want to go into the room, they only had to push them with a Handle Animal check but none of them thought of that until after the fight. They talked to the mephits and agreed to leave, but the Bard decided he wanted the XP and attacked them, and was promptly grabbed by the Otyugh. The opponents were immune to the mephits' sinking cloud for arbitrary reasons. The Druid was also hit by a tentacle, but he managed to avoid being grabbed with a lucky grapple check. The Crusader managed to fail every Stinking Cloud save, and the player was so demoralized by it that his character fled the room and abandoned the fight. The Bard went into the negatives and the Druid's summoned Greenbound Eagles finished off the Otyugh one round before it would have finished off the Bard. So he had an extremely close brush with death in an encounter that would have easily been a near-TPK if the Druid had been grappled by that first attack.

They were quite lucky when the Terlens showed up as they approached the island, since the Druid would have most definitely died if he'd been grabbed and carried away, and he was the easy target that they were going after.

That session was a few adventures into the first game I'd DMed for at least a year, before that our regular DM was more into story and catered to PCs' abilities and always gave us fights we could win. After that session the Druid's player explained to the Bard's player that I'm not that DM, that I'll kill their characters if that's what the monsters would do. The other DM didn't ever give us a talk encounter that didn't end with a fight, so it basically taught the Bard's player to be more cautious with his character's actions and consider that his character actually could die in any of those fights.

[Crustypeanut]

This is not strictly the case. First, ghouls are established to be intelligence undead, meaning that they have at least some consideration for self-preservation. You are of course free to establish otherwise, but doing so carried some rather serious implications concerning the ghoul's consideration for their own self-preservation (attempting to jump from one cliff face, no matter the chances of success, to get at a potential meal, for instance). Note that flesh eating zombies would have no such compunction, so this would be perfectly reasonable.
The second thing to take into account is, like you said, the ghoul is likely to try and drag off the downed target first. So presumably, the ghoul will start dragging the downed character away from the fight, signaling the rest of the party that they might want to kill it before it kills their party member.
And finally, I would wonder why the ghoul would bother to "finish off" the character before attempting to eat them. Ghouls are established to have no compunctions about eating someone alive, so why would they worry about making them dead first? So, on the one hand, I would imagine a ghoul attempting to "eat" a downed character might be most likely to simply make bite attacks every round while they are down. On the other hand, it is I suppose entirely possible, and not unreasonable, for you as the DM to differentiate between simply "biting" and "eating". Perhaps, for you, the ghoul attempting to "eat" you is a much more involved affair, as it will be attempting to tear off mouthfuls of flesh, tear through ribs with its claws, and the like. You might rule that, however unintentionally, this is best represented as a coup de grace, rather than a normal, or somehow modified, attack. So I suppose on this point YMMV, but I know I would tend towards the simple biting, if only to allow an already downed character a better chance to escape. (Though, if you are going for a more gruesome, and lethal, campaign, the coup de grace would likely be the better option)

Makes sense. The ghoul in this case, was the last remaining ghoul of three, coming out of a ragged tent. The Rogue and the Summoner's Eidolon went from the back of the tent (Where everyone else was, peeking through a hole) to the front and fought two of the three ghouls. One ghoul was destroyed, with the eidolon being paralyzed and then de-summoned before it could get killed. This left the rogue to fight the last ghoul alone, which he was paralyzed in doing. This left him (paralyzed) and the ghoul alone, so when the ghouls' next turn came around, it was going to use this rare opportunity to rip his throat out and nom on him a little bit until it went after the others. However, the fighter was within striking range (but out of sight), and moved over to the ghoul and bashed it's brains in with a heavy flail crit.

The Eidolon, when it was paralyzed, was less likely to have been coup de graced, because the rogue was still within striking range and was threatening the ghoul. I wouldn't have had it coup de grace if it was being threatened immediately.

Granted, these ghouls were extremely hungry, having been stranded on a flyspeck of an island with nothing to eat but the odd Grindylow, so they were more desperate than normal ghouls.

[Alefiend]

I prefer to answer from the metagame perspective. In my opinion, this sort of thing is best left for NPC-versus-NPC violence. It's much easier to craft a dramatic scene if a beloved or important party ally is down, and there's a blackguard standing over them with sword at the ready. It's a tool of storytelling, not mechanics.

The GM should rarely if ever coup-de-grace a PC—they have to really be asking for it through abusive in-game behavior (especially overuse of coup-de-grace against victims who don't warrant it) and have received at least one warning. It's the single target version of Rocks Fall, Everybody Dies.

[Azoth]

I have to agree with it being a measure of tactic and what feels right.

The last time I used it, well I had a party of the ropes that was retreating, once I dropped the CDG on the party rogue, they came back with a full out nova storm of vengeance.

The party was fighting the right hand man for the BBEG with a small retention of body guards. They stumbled across him securing backing from a noble for the BBEG's war efforts. Once the noble left, they took the opportunity to try and jump him.

It was a good back and forth fight. The rogue got a little too close, and ended up surrounded. He was beaten up pretty bad when the party called for a full retreat. He went down when in the volley or ranged weapon fire as the party was running.

Since the right hand man was next in initiative, he swift action teleported to the rogue and CDGed him cold and dead on floor infront of the party via bastard sword through the throat.

The next thing I know, the party stops trying to get away, and rushes right back in to avenge the rogue. They pulled out spell and melee combos and tactics they had never used before and I didn't even realize they could do at the time. Suffice to say, I had to draft up a new right hand man after that session.

[Story]

especially the ghoul touched elven wizard with a poor fortitude save modifer.

You mean Ghast, right?

[molten_dragon]

In my games most enemies won't use a Coup de Grace if there's still a threat up and fighting. Some enemies might care more about killing a PC than their own lives though, but usually the PCs will know about that beforehand.

[DonDuckie]

You mean Ghast, right?
I was thinking of the spell: Ghoul Touch.(Elves aren't immune to that, right?)
And:
I'm sure there's an elf subtybe which isn't immune to the touch of ghouls.:smalltongue:

[Pickford]

I suppose it depends on what kind of ground rules you set with the players in advance. (i.e. A pull-no-punches campaign, or one where the players are the heroes and it's just how they get there). Also what level of access the players have to true resurrection.