Ex-Paladins ... need a little explanation and rules help

[Elixia]

Hello again you wonderful people! I'm hoping you can again help me with a story rules conflict.

Our paladin is a bastard prince to a not so nice king is about to try and dethrone him and take his place in order to save the nation from ruin and war. Now, the thing about ruling is that sometimes you have to lie and and cheat a little in order to keep your council or court from killing each other or yourself! also the whole thing that he's opposing the current authority in order to become king questions if he'll be able to keep his paladin powers. I recon he'll be able to stay lawful good but as for the code of conduct .... its a bit airy fairy.

i saw a forum post about ex-paladin and fallen paladin but it didn't explain much.

whats your take? how would you handle this? and if you point to some refence material that would be awesome

and as a FYI were playing in the PF rules set but that uses a lot of 3.5

[Flickerdart]

A Paladin must only obey authority when it is legitimate, as mentioned in the Code. Revolution against a corrupt and incompetent king isn't an evil act, nor is it against the code. However, once he's on the throne, lying does break the code. What doesn't break the code is turning a blind eye to someone else doing the lying for you so, you know. Delegate.

[Elixia]

oooooh yes of course!! thats very clever. thank you.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I generally second everything Flickerdart said, but would just like to add.


sometimes you have to lie and and cheat a little in order to keep your council or court from killing each other or yourself!

A lot of Paladins would disagree and as an individual of unimpeachable morals and a proven man of action after deposing his father he may be able to get away with much more honesty and forthrightness than other rulers.

[Elixia]

true true, i think his first hurdle has been his meeting several nobles trying to get them on board. think dragon age origins landsmeet and you've got it!
i mean he just had to talk to a merchant to getting his backing that's secretly a slave smuggler. bowen (the paladin) was very open about the fact he knew about this but asked for aid but only if this merchant would stop slave trading and instead offered him gold and jewels for trading from our alliance with the elves and dwarves. We'll see if he takes up our offer.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Lying isn't explicitly against the code. It's given as an example of dishonorable action but what is honorable or dishonorable is subjective. Some cultures have honor systems that laud a person who can use clever words, half-truths, and even whole lies to keep the peace. Even if you take verbal misdirection as a dishonorable action, it's not a grossly dishonorable action and is absolutely necessary in politics, so while it may go against the code, it's not fall-worthy because of its absolute necessity.

Oh, and don't let the DM fall your paladin because one of the nobles you must associate with as king is evil. The associates section of the paladin class is seperate from the code of conduct and is merely poorly placed RP advice.

[Exirtadorri]

Actually according to the boed and bovd good and evil are defined. a paladin tolerating lying on his behalf or even telling someone to do it is wrong.

Situations like this are why atonement spells exist.

Self sacrifice by willingly falling for the betterment of a whole kingdom is what legends are built with.

[Flickerdart]

Actually according to the boed and bovd good and evil are defined. a paladin tolerating lying on his behalf or even telling someone to do it is wrong.
Well, no. You see, at the top, you have a Paladin king. He has a cabinet of trusted ministers, who in turn deal with subordinates who may have their own ambitions and such, and thwart them as necessary. The Paladin might suspect that they keep things from their subordinates or tell them to use unsavoury methods, but he doesn't know for sure, and nothing in the Code requires him to investigate.

His cabinet won't plot against him, because it's in their best interest to keep the noble shining Paladin king around. It's good for the kingdom's image, he'll never lie to them about anything, and they can skim a little off the top of the treasury because he's never going to investigate. Win-win.

[ArcturusV]

Ug. Yes. What Kelb said. I always felt that guilt by association is stupid. Even if it's RAW... which generally DOES mean it's Stupid in a lot of cases. This one most definitely. As a Paladin you're supposed to be a shining exemplar of Good. Hanging around evil people, and perhaps trying to turn them by showing them an example of a better way, should be natural paladin territory. Not "Hurr hurr, he's evil, you fall."

[Starbuck_II]

If the Paladin becomes a Grey Guard he can lie freely (for the greater good).

Plus, in 3.5 only gross violations make you fall so he can lie 144 times before falling.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually according to the boed and bovd good and evil are defined. a paladin tolerating lying on his behalf or even telling someone to do it is wrong.

Situations like this are why atonement spells exist.

Self sacrifice by willingly falling for the betterment of a whole kingdom is what legends are built with.

Read a little closer, friend.

BoVD page 7
Lying is not necessarily an evil act, though it is a tool that can easily be used for evil ends. and BoED has nothing to say on the subject.

Lying is a perfectly acceptable tool for good characters. Ask any CG cleric of the laughing rogue.

BoED does however say that sacrificing your own purity; using an evil means and justifying it by a good end; is nothing less than a victory for evil. Atonement exists because mortals sometimes give in to temptation. It also -requires- that you be genuinely repentant of your transgression to actually work.

[ArcturusV]

It also -requires- that you be genuinely repentant of your transgression to actually work.

That's always the kicker and why Paladins I do have fall. Usually due to things like "I'm just going to execute this guy giving up and pleading for mercy because it's easier that way".

And then when confronted with their actions and falling based on patterns of behavior like that. They usually say something like "This is stupid that I lost my powers over that." and grumble about it IC and OOCily. Thus not repentant and having a hard time getting Atonement.

Too often players forget about that and think Atonement is just some magic "Get out of Jail Free" card.

If your Paladin however is TRYING to be good. Has to lie, regrets that he must lie, but tries to avoid it?

*shrug* In my book Intentions Matter. If he's trying, don't make him fall. Not everyone can be perfect, not even Paladins. But attempts and intentions matter.

[Pickford]

A Paladin must only obey authority when it is legitimate, as mentioned in the Code. Revolution against a corrupt and incompetent king isn't an evil act, nor is it against the code. However, once he's on the throne, lying does break the code. What doesn't break the code is turning a blind eye to someone else doing the lying for you so, you know. Delegate.

Also this depends on if you're using the PHB code or wrote your own.

You might consider the Grey Guard (Complete Scoundrel) (edit: bah, missed the earlier post)
Entry requirements
Alignment: Lawful Good
Skills: Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks, Sense Motive 4 ranks
Special: Lay on Hands class feature
Special: Must adhere to a code of conduct that prevents the character from performing evil acts.

Essentially it lets you perform dishonorable acts and removes the atonement XP cost if they were in furtherence of the cause of righteousness and faith.

Kind of fun as an RP thing.
Also, evil acts are, fortunately, extremely relative. It all depends on your point of view as to how good/evil an act becomes. As a result, a Paladin is quite capable of things that, out of context, would be considered quite evil.

Edit: Strictly speaking for the lying, that's ruled out directly in the phb code of conduct though. Yes, it'll cause conflicts, but that's a great way to introduce dramatic tension for the players.

[Elixia]

wow! well thanks for the wealth of info! grey guard we'll consider. it could certainly be an option i dont think the class is in PF but he could house rule it, after all this homebrew did start in 3.5 before switching to PF. Our paladin is gonna ask the DM if this could be done.