First-time Wizard

[kimfu]

This is my first campaign, first time playing D&D, and first time Wizard.

We're playing 3.5. We can only use PHB for our campaign.

I went for an Evocator specialist. At first i thought Divination and Abjuration weren't so useful, then i realized i was wrong ._.

Anyway, is it a good idea to invest in Necromancy spells??
Be more of a Debuffer than a burster, i don't get many chances to use AoE dmg spells because we have many melee PC's in our party, so i thought of using spells like Ray of Enfeeblement or Curses, Touch and Range Touch Attacks.

Also thought of using Some Charm, Hold, or Suggest Spells.

What can you tell me about this idea???
Also, i welcome any other tips or suggestions and crazy ideas, i specially like crazy ideas :smallbiggrin:

I like elaborate tricks you can do with the combination of spells.

I don't know, maybe you could do like create water (druid) over 5 humanoids, and then cast Cone of Cold (wizard) to freeze all teh water. (i don't really know if that's possible, but they tell me that if you can justify the actions, you can make/create many things in d&d :smalltongue:)

[Sacrieur]

D'awww you went evocation... For future reference conjuration is regarded as the best school (SUMMON MONSTER HELLZ YA).

The thing about wizards. They're not blasters. They can be blasters, but that's just tying a hand behind your back. You shine as a battlefield controler, so worry more about incapacitating/debuffing/buffing.

What level are you?

[Rakoa]

The trick when selecting spells is to not go the straight damage route. As a new player, it can be tempting to look at your 1st level spells and say "Burning Hands? Badass!" when in reality, the spell is mediocre compared to something you would normally be less inclined to pick such as Grease, which can completely wreck entire crews of monsters by making them basically useless while your party mops the floor with them.

The spells you want to choose to be really effective are ones which require your enemy to make a save or become totally useless, or dead, or just really suck, such as Web, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, and so on. Pick your spells carefully. Try to have one that targets Fortitude, Reflexes, and Will so that you can pick on your enemy's weaknesses and disabling them. There are many spells that will cause your opponent, on a failed saving throw, to become dead or helpless, where helpless is as good as dead.

Evocation is not the way to go. Even if you look at level 1, 1d6 worth of fire damage does not compare to Sleep, which can force four enemies to make saving throws or else fall asleep, or as I prefer to call it, turn into Coup de Grace magnets.

[Gavinfoxx]

The most powerful schools of magic for Wizards are Conjuration and Transmutation.

Are you allowed Monster Manual races (at least the 0 RHD / LA+0 ones)? How about System Reference Document options, which expands PHB/DMG/MM1?

What level are you starting at? Do you know if the game will follow Wealth By Level, or have places where you can sell and trade your stuff to get the items in the DMG?

Have you read the Wizard handbook?

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873034/Treantmonks_guide_to_Wizards%3A_Being_a_God

[DEMON]

I went for an Evocator specialist. At first i thought Divination and Abjuration weren't so useful, then i realized i was wrong

Does this mean you banned Divination and Abjuration? Because Divination can not be banned. You need to choose 2 other schools.

You can still do well as an Evoker, even though blasting is usually considered sub-par (evocation has some non-basting spells, too and a single GEM right there in the PHB). If you did not ban Conjuration, you still have the strongest school at hand and if you keep necromancy, you can debuff like a boss. Though the loss of Abjuration can hurt you a lot...

[Flickerdart]

Touch attacks aren't good (yet) because your attack bonus is going to be crap and touch AC for the early levels tends to be pretty solid. Saving throws for low level monsters, however, are crap, so grab some spells that target Will saves and you should be golden. It's a shame that you can only use PHB because to make blasting good you need some expansion material.

Enchantment spells like Charm Person and Hold Person are very good in the early levels (when all you fight are goblins and orcs), but they rapidly drop off in usefulness when things start becoming immune to mind-affecting spells.

If you have bruisers in the party, Transmutation is a very good school, because straight off the bat you can Enlarge a party member, or make their weapon magic. The reason it's better (at this level) to buff your friends rather than debuff your enemies is that you're very likely to fight many weak monsters that your buddies can chop in half in one hit, so debuffing them is a waste of time.

For Evocation spells, you'll want to prepare the humble Magic Missile in your specialist slot. It's not a lot of damage but "I hit you, no attack roll, no save" can be useful in situations when you need to finish off a straggler that your melee can't reach. Next spell level, Scorching Ray is quite good for a damage spell, and after that, Wind Wall is absolutely incredible since it's a straight "no" for any enemy archers. Shatter (a level 2 spell) is useful when you want to blow up a weapon or armour your opponent is using (since it's nonmagical, nobody will care that you destroyed some loot).

Are Abjuration and Divination your banned schools? Because you can't actually ban Divination.

[chaos_redefined]

There are some good evocation spells...

First level: Tenser's Floating Disk
Second level: Darkness, Gust of Wind, Shatter
Third level: Wind Wall
Fourth level: Resilient Sphere, Wall of Ice, Ice Storm
Fifth level: Wall of Force
Sixth level: Contingency, Forceful Hand
Seventh: Grasping Hand
Eighth and ninth, however, are lacking... (Quickend Resilient Sphere, Quickened Wall of Force)

Note that none of them just deal damage.

As far as other schools go... Necromancy's debuffs are pretty good. Divination, in addition to being useful, is also not bannable, so you'll have to talk to your DM about that. Abjuration gets Dispel Magic, Magic Circle, and clerics get it too. Conjuration gets summon monster and plenty of control spells. Transmutation gets lots of buffs, and easily ensures you don't walk.

For some spell combos, you'll need to give us some idea of what level you are and what level you expect to be.

[Slipperychicken]

Since it's your first game, you may want to try a Sorcerer instead. They're usually considered more fun, partly because they don't need as much bookkeeping as a Wizard (keeping track of prepared, cast, known, AND mechanics for learning more? Bor-ing!) and you have more spells per day. Also, Spontaneous casting is convenient, with your whole repertoire at your fingertips, and you don't worry about being screwed for not preparing the right spells.


General tips for Wizards and Sorcerers:
When selecting ability scores, put your highest stat in your "casting stat". Leave something in Constitution, because that stat keeps you from being monster-chow. A 12-14 is recommended.

Even if you have a good Con, your character is squishy with low hp and low AC. Avoid physical combat at all costs. Getting killed on the front lines is the Fighter's job anyway :smalltongue:.

Have a crossbow handy (or a Longbow, if you're an Elf). Since you can only cast so many spells each day, there will be times when it's not worth casting a spell, or when you run out of spells entirely. Even if your Dex isn't great, you're still contributing to the fight, and not getting murdered.

Pace yourself, but don't overdo it. Keep in mind most games will feature about 4 combats each day, although this isn't always the case. Think about the number of spells you'll need to get through each encounter -sometimes you want more, sometimes less, sometimes plinking the enemy with a crossbow is enough.

[kimfu]

I think i'll ban Illusion then, i don't usually use illusion spells.

I'm a Level 13th Elven Wizard Level 7 dragonslayer(I learned too late, elves are not the best wizards tho i'm happy :P).
Our DM specializes in Dragons, so he told us that if we could slay a dragon, he would open up the Draconomicon prestige classes (We don't have access to any other information from the Draconomicon).

Tho i'm a Wizard, i can use Full Plates (only if they are considered Light) and have proficiency using Martial Weapons (i am using a Composite Long Bow +2 with Sleep DC 25 i got from a Dark Stalker). I could also use Tower Shields, but my Strength Stat is too low.

In our party, we have a Sorceress(Half Elf) and a Druid(Gnome). Our sorcerer is more of a buffer, and our Druid is a Shapeshifter/Healer.
We're a big party and we also have paladin, ranger, rogue and barbarian.

Having the Dragonslayer prestige class i get more Base Attack Bonus (14/8 At the moment) so my touch attacks can overcome most Touch AC's.

We have only killed young adult dragons, and are really hard to kill :smalleek:
Some things happened and after we were caught in the middle of an all out war in one of the biggest metropolis, we lost all of our equipment.
We have only equipment +1 with no special qualities or enchantments and i'm really sure it won't be long until we face 2 dragons at the same time. I'm counting on Wall of Force to defend against Breath Weapons, but we recently got to our level, so i don't have many knowledge of Level 5, 6 and 7 Spells.
Our Party is a mess :smalltongue:
The dragons we fight are not from the monster manual, they are dragons with class and some even with prestige classes. Many feats, special abilities.

[Sachiru]

I think i'll ban Illusion then, i don't usually use illusion spells.

I'm a Level 13th Elven Wizard Level 7 dragonslayer(I learned too late, elves are not the best wizards tho i'm happy :P).
Our DM specializes in Dragons, so he told us that if we could slay a dragon, he would open up the Draconomicon prestige classes (We don't have access to any other information from the Draconomicon).

Tho i'm a Wizard, i can use Full Plates (only if they are considered Light) and have proficiency using Martial Weapons (i am using a Composite Long Bow +2 with Sleep DC 25 i got from a Dark Stalker). I could also use Tower Shields, but my Strength Stat is too low.

In our party, we have a Sorceress(Half Elf) and a Druid(Gnome). Our sorcerer is more of a buffer, and our Druid is a Shapeshifter/Healer.
We're a big party and we also have paladin, ranger, rogue and barbarian.

Having the Dragonslayer prestige class i get more Base Attack Bonus (14/8 At the moment) so my touch attacks can overcome most Touch AC's.

We have only killed young adult dragons, and are really hard to kill :smalleek:
Some things happened and after we were caught in the middle of an all out war in one of the biggest metropolis, we lost all of our equipment.
We have only equipment +1 with no special qualities or enchantments and i'm really sure it won't be long until we face 2 dragons at the same time. I'm counting on Wall of Force to defend against Breath Weapons, but we recently got to our level, so i don't have many knowledge of Level 5, 6 and 7 Spells.
Our Party is a mess :smalltongue:
The dragons we fight are not from the monster manual, they are dragons with class and some even with prestige classes. Many feats, special abilities.

Silent Image and an increased Will DC will work wonders. Silent Image can be used to create an illusory pool of water over a pitfall trap, a rock to hide you in, a sleeping dragon to intimidate others with, etc.

[Gavinfoxx]

Where did you find the Dragonslayer prestige class? It's not a WotC class...

Also, killing dragons is easy. Their touch AC goes down the bigger they get. Seriously, look at Reds:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm

Wyrmling: Touch AC of 10
Very Young - Juvenile: Touch AC of 9
Young Adult - Mature Adult: Touch AC of 8
Old - Wyrm: Touch AC of 6

So that means that at, say, yuong adult through mature adult, a To Hit for a Touch attack or Ranged Touch attack of higher than +7 is wasted. Completely wasted!

And dragons are easy, easy, to one shot!


There are several ways to get it to work more than it usually would, including:

Start with, depending:
Assay Magical Resistance
True Casting
Arcane Fusion
True Strike
A few Enervations
Maybe even do a Limited Wish to autohit... (can be done from a scroll)

or a Dispel Magic of some kind (there are several types) to take down the Scintillating Scales or other defenses and miss chances of the Dragon, or do a Chain Lightning to target the magic items it is wearing to destroy them, if it obviously has a ton of miss chance from items it is wearing

And then you..
Cast into a Spectral Hand, or Reach Spell or Optical Spell, the core of this...

SHIVERING TOUCH!

Maximize it via Metamagic Rod. Maybe also Empower it.

Bam, a huge amount of dex damage. Dragons tend to have 10 dex. Then you rush up and coup de grace it with your Large, x4 crit exotic weapons that are custom made to overcome the appropriate DR for the type of dragon (probably just Magic), until it's dead... So, yea, a Large +1 Scythe or Greatpick or Goliath Greathammer, preferably made out of one of the materials that adds +1 or +2 damage, everyone goes up and Coup de Graces the paralyzed dragon while it's dex is 0 (you should hurry up and do this)... it doesnt matter that it is an oversized weapon or that you are unproficient; you auto crit for coup de grace anyway!

[Alabenson]

I think i'll ban Illusion then, i don't usually use illusion spells.

I'm a Level 13th Elven Wizard Level 7 dragonslayer(I learned too late, elves are not the best wizards tho i'm happy :P).
Our DM specializes in Dragons, so he told us that if we could slay a dragon, he would open up the Draconomicon prestige classes (We don't have access to any other information from the Draconomicon).

Tho i'm a Wizard, i can use Full Plates (only if they are considered Light) and have proficiency using Martial Weapons (i am using a Composite Long Bow +2 with Sleep DC 25 i got from a Dark Stalker). I could also use Tower Shields, but my Strength Stat is too low.

In our party, we have a Sorceress(Half Elf) and a Druid(Gnome). Our sorcerer is more of a buffer, and our Druid is a Shapeshifter/Healer.
We're a big party and we also have paladin, ranger, rogue and barbarian.

Having the Dragonslayer prestige class i get more Base Attack Bonus (14/8 At the moment) so my touch attacks can overcome most Touch AC's.

We have only killed young adult dragons, and are really hard to kill :smalleek:
Some things happened and after we were caught in the middle of an all out war in one of the biggest metropolis, we lost all of our equipment.
We have only equipment +1 with no special qualities or enchantments and i'm really sure it won't be long until we face 2 dragons at the same time. I'm counting on Wall of Force to defend against Breath Weapons, but we recently got to our level, so i don't have many knowledge of Level 5, 6 and 7 Spells.
Our Party is a mess :smalltongue:
The dragons we fight are not from the monster manual, they are dragons with class and some even with prestige classes. Many feats, special abilities.

I hate to tell you this, but the Dragonslayer prestige class is really horrific, especially for a wizard. You're trading 5 levels of casting for essentially a handful of fairly mediocre bonuses, largely to things you don't need.
The BAB? Useless, particularly if you're targeting a dragon's touch AC, which is typically going to be extremely low.
The armor/weapon proficiencies? Useless. As a wizard, you should never be in melee combat unless things have gone horribly, horribly wrong. This goes double if you're fighting dragons.
The damage bonus and DR? Useless, they simply are too low to make any appreciable difference, particularly if (you guessed it) you're fighting dragons.

The only remotely useful element of the entire class is the aura of courage you get at first level, and there are better ways to get immunity to fear (the aura's miniscule range renders the morale bonus totally unhelpful).

Edit:
To those who don't know already, the Dragonslayer prestige class is in the Draconomicon, pg. 126.

[Slipperychicken]

Where did you find the Dragonslayer prestige class? It's not a WotC class...

There's homebrew in them hills. Also a few more red flags like Lost All Your Equipment, and a Sleep Bow. Wait nope that class is legit.

If your DM loves using breath weapons on Dragons, buffing with Protection from Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEnergy.htm) before the fight counters them (much more effective and less costly than a Wall of Force). Additionally, Protection from Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromArrows.htm) is very sexy in a battlefield where most attacks are dealing 10 or less damage anyhow.

If he likes having the Dragons fly around out of reach, putting Flight (or similar) on your melee'rs is a good idea, so they can reach the Dragons.

Phantom Steed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantomSteed.htm) (Sorc/Wiz3) will be a really nice way to get around. Flying around at 240ft for hours/level, for only a 3rd level spell, it's like a magic motorcycle. You can probably outrun the Dragons with it.

[Gavinfoxx]

Wait, Dragonslayer... you lost a whole huge amount of useful stuff...

A basic 'Gish' (melee/arcanist) is:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D8786

Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Human Paragon 3/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8.

With Dragonslayer, you threw a feat on fire (dodge), same with Iron Will, and you lose huge casting levels... which you most definitely do NOT want to do! See if you can switch over to that build or something more like it... also, Fighter2/Wizard 4 would work.

But the thing is, a well designed and played Wizard 6 can take down most Dragons!

And the best Wizard is a Focused Specialist Abrupt Jaunt Conjurer, generally.

[kimfu]

Where did you find the Dragonslayer prestige class? It's not a WotC class...
Sorry i'm new and don't know that a WotC is :S
but dragonslayer is in a 3.5 manual called draconomicon (at least i think it is).


Also, killing dragons is easy. Their touch AC goes down the bigger they get. Seriously, look at Reds:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm

Wyrmling: Touch AC of 10
Very Young - Juvenile: Touch AC of 9
Young Adult - Mature Adult: Touch AC of 8
Old - Wyrm: Touch AC of 6

So that means that at, say, yuong adult through mature adult, a To Hit for a Touch attack or Ranged Touch attack of higher than +7 is wasted. Completely wasted!
I don't know of it, but we still need to get close enough to it, even if it is through spectral hand. If they're flying we need to make them descend :S


And dragons are easy, easy, to one shot!


There are several ways to get it to work more than it usually would, including:

Start with, depending:
Assay Magical Resistance
True Casting
Arcane Fusion
True Strike
A few Enervations
Maybe even do a Limited Wish to autohit... (can be done from a scroll)
I don't think we can one shot a dragon :S
and sorry, i don't know what Assay magical resistance, True casting, Arcane Fusion are :S we can only use spells from PHB 1 same as feats, etc.
we only got access to draconomicon prestige classes because we decided to be a dragonslayer mercenary group :P (maybe a gift from our DM)


or a Dispel Magic of some kind (there are several types) to take down the Scintillating Scales or other defenses and miss chances of the Dragon, or do a Chain Lightning to target the magic items it is wearing to destroy them, if it obviously has a ton of miss chance from items it is wearing

And then you..
Cast into a Spectral Hand, or Reach Spell or Optical Spell, the core of this...

SHIVERING TOUCH!

Maximize it via Metamagic Rod. Maybe also Empower it.

Bam, a huge amount of dex damage. Dragons tend to have 10 dex. Then you rush up and coup de grace it with your Large, x4 crit exotic weapons that are custom made to overcome the appropriate DR for the type of dragon (probably just Magic), until it's dead... So, yea, a Large +1 Scythe or Greatpick or Goliath Greathammer, preferably made out of one of the materials that adds +1 or +2 damage, everyone goes up and Coup de Graces the paralyzed dragon while it's dex is 0 (you should hurry up and do this)... it doesnt matter that it is an oversized weapon or that you are unproficient; you auto crit for coup de grace anyway!

It's hard (but not impossible :smalltongue:) to debuff the dragons we fight with, they tend to have lots of HP, Saves, AC, etc. and the other things it should have, i think they are harder because they have a class, like White Dragon Fighter for example :smalleek:

[Gavinfoxx]

Why isn't everyone flying by level 12 or so? Remember, even core, there are cheap flying mounts, and there are a TON of spells that give people flight. You do NOT need to make the dragon come down; you go up to it!!

And the only thing you need to worry about debuffing is:

Spell Resistance.
Major bonuses to TOUCH AC (like scintillating scales).

HP, AC, Saves, all the rest? Doesn't matter.

Also, I'll give you the books that those spells come from in the next reply.

[Gavinfoxx]

First of all, look at this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851

Broom of Flying, Wings of Flying, and Carpet of Flying are all in the DMG! As is Flight and Overland Flight and Phantom Steed!

Also:

Giant Eagle: 4000 gp for young, +1000 for training or 6th level Cohort
Giant Owl: 4000 gp for young, +1000 for training or 6th level Cohort
Hippogriff: 3000 gp for young, +1000 for training
Griffon: 7000 gp for young, +1500 for training or 10th level Cohort
Pegasus: 3000 gp for young, +1000 for training or 6th level Cohort

Assay Spell Resistance: Originally in Complete Arcane, most recently in Spell Compendium

True Casting: Complete Mage

Arcane Fusion: Complete Mage (sorcerer only)

True Strike: PHB

Enervation: PHB

Limited Wish: PHB

Spectral Hand: PHB

Reach Spell (feat): Complete Divine

Ocular Spell (feat): Lords of Madness

Metamagic Rod of Maximize Spell (item): PHB for feat, DMG for item

Empower Spell (feat): PHB

Dispel Magic: PHB

Chain Lightning: PHB

Scintillating Scales: Most recently in Spell Compendium, earlier versions are very different

Shivering Touch: Frostburn

[Flickerdart]

Why isn't everyone flying by level 12 or so? Remember, even core, there are cheap flying mounts, and there are a TON of spells that give people flight. You do NOT need to make the dragon come down; you go up to it!!
And then the dragon eats your mount and you fall down onto sharp rocks. Whoops! If you're going to use a mount to fly, you better be damn sure it's got a fat stack of HP.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, Mounts shouldn't be your ONLY way to fly. Also Ring of Feather Falling is Core...

[kimfu]

We're not loosing primary class levels, let's say it's a first campaign gift to be on par, or at least try to not get killed in one round, with the dragons our DM uses.

Hmm, I'm a LvL 13 Wizard/LvL 7 DragonSlayer, but am actually a LvL 13 Wizard with free dragon slayer abilities, feats and other things it comes with. So i'm not actually a lvl 20 player, only lvl 13. And even with all those benefits, it's still dificult against a single dragon. Agains a dragonrider and his dragon mount, we were almost obliterated :smalltongue:

I know, there are many house rules. But it makes it interesting. And i think without those bonuses, we would've died long ago :smalleek:


I really liked the flying approach, i hope it doesn't backfire on us xD
I'll try it next time we encounter a flying dragon.

[Gavinfoxx]

Can you ask for access to Shivering Touch, Assay Spell Resistance, and True Casting? Or at least to negotiate with your GM that there was a legendary Wizard spellcaster who slew a ton of dragons, who discovered those spells, and you want to go on a quest to find his spellbook or some of the scrolls he scribed or something?? Because he finally bit the dust against a very powerful White dragon who had the spell Scintillating Scales on his list, who is probably still there, and the wizard and his party's stuff in the dragon's hoard... And him and his party's Coup De Grace weapons, a set of identical Large +1 Collision Baatorian Greensteel Scythes (So a coup de grace, with 10 strength, is 2d6 + 1 + 5 + 1, x4, so 8d6+28, or ~ 56 damage), are also with him...

[Alabenson]

Quick question, are you restricted to the PHB1 because the DM is running a core-only game, or are you restricted to it because it's the only book you have access to? If you can use spells from sources outside core, your ability to kill/maim/destroy dragons/everything is greatly increased.

That said, one trick you might want to consider is offensively using Wall of Force. Unless they've invested in improving their flight manuverability substantially, most dragons are going to have a clumsy flight rating, meaning they need to maintain a minimum foward speed every round or down they go. Put a Wall of Force directly infront of one, and they'll crash right into it, plumetting to the ground (and hopefully your team's melee), likely racking up a few dice worth of automatic falling damage in the process.

[kimfu]

The reason for using PHB1 was so we could learn the basics top to bottom, left to right. (We still don't know 100% all the rules :P)

For our next campaign we'll have acces to all player books, still i hope this one lasts longer, it's really fun :P

[Slipperychicken]

I really liked the flying approach, i hope it doesn't backfire on us xD
I'll try it next time we encounter a flying dragon.

Generally speaking, flight constitutes a huge advantage over a grounded melee opponent, especially with ranged attacks at your disposal. This may be why you had so much difficulty with previous dragon encounters.



In our party, we have a Sorceress(Half Elf) and a Druid(Gnome). Our sorcerer is more of a buffer, and our Druid is a Shapeshifter/Healer.
We're a big party and we also have paladin, ranger, rogue and barbarian.


Those four knuckleheads (possibly the Ranger too) are primarily doing melee damage, so your effectiveness goes down a lot when they can't make it to their target. Casting Overland Flight may be your best option, since dragons will most likely roast any flying mounts via breath weapon. Dragons also have DR/Magic, so make sure their primary weapons are magic to deal with it (if they aren't, cast Greater Magic Weapon on them at the beginning of the day).

[Story]

But the thing is, a well designed and played Wizard 6 can take down most Dragons!


Do you have any recommendations for how to do this without Shivering Touch or metamagic reducers?

I can blind them with Glitterdust, but breath weapons are AOE. Web is useless in the air.

[Gavinfoxx]

Do you have any recommendations for how to do this without Shivering Touch or metamagic reducers?


No, that's assuming stuff like Shivering Touch being available, and Altering Self into an Avariel also being available.


As far as melee and air, tell the Druid to shift into a Dire Bat if he can't get to the dragon...

[Onerai]

PHB1-only Wizard eh? As mentioned by a poster above, the Wall Of Force (evocation, lvl 5) spell is great for blocking movement, which can cause clumsy flying creatures (such as big dragons) to crash. If your DM allows it, a horizontal Wall Of Force could be placed overhead to block breath weapons and flyby attacks entirely, forcing the dragon to land in order to worm its way under your barrier.

Other ways of forcing a flying dragon to "land" include necromancy spells that debuff it's strength, such as Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Waves of Fatigue and so on. A flying creature has to be strong enough to hold itself aloft or it crashes, and exhausting the target might also render it incapable of moving fast enough to stay up.

Sticking with what you said, get some spell penetration into your build; this will make your magic less likely to fail against big dragons. There are feats that improve spell penetration, but there's also scope within the rules for magic items that improve spell pen - I think the robe of the archmagi does this, among other things. See if your DM will allow you to get your hands on something that gives you +2 or +4 spell pen.

[Malak'ai]

Okay here's my ramble to try and help.
Your a lvl 13 Wizard so you have access to 7th level spells.
My advice, pump your Spell Pen and your Spell DC's.

Using just 2 Necro spells you should be able to take out a Young Adult Red Dragon without too much difficulty in two turns. Here's how.
Once you have your defences up (Wall of Force, Protect from Energy) hit it with a Bestow Curse (-6 decrease to an ability score (minimum 1). -4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks. Each turn, the target has a 50% chance to act normally; otherwise, it takes no action.) and take his Con down 6 points (which will take his Fort Save down by 3, leaving at +13) then hit it with a Finger of Death the next turn... Instant death.

The main thing is to make sure you can beat it's SR and to bump your Spell DC's as high as you can.

[TuggyNE]

hit it with a Bestow Curse (-6 decrease to an ability score (minimum 1). -4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks. Each turn, the target has a 50% chance to act normally; otherwise, it takes no action.) and take his Con down 6 points (which will take his Fort Save down by 3, leaving at +13) then hit it with a Finger of Death the next turn... Instant death.

It's not entirely clear, but are you under the mistaken impression that you get all of those penalties at once? Because you don't; the caster selects one from the list, and that's the only one that's in effect. Worse, spell stacking rules* imply that you can't get the other effects as well even if you spend more turns and slots on it: only the effect from the last casting will be active.

*Yep, it's another reference to spell stacking rules. :smallredface:

[Malak'ai]

It's not entirely clear, but are you under the mistaken impression that you get all of those penalties at once? Because you don't; the caster selects one from the list, and that's the only one that's in effect. Worse, spell stacking rules* imply that you can't get the other effects as well even if you spend more turns and slots on it: only the effect from the last casting will be active.

*Yep, it's another reference to spell stacking rules. :smallredface:

No, I know you only get one of the effects. I just copy/pasted from the SRD and took out the bullets.

Only problem with that method is that Bestow Curse is a Touch, not a Ranged Touch... Can't remember if the feat to make it one is Core or not.

[ArcturusV]

Eh. I wouldn't say 8th or 9th doesn't get good stuff. Meteor Swarm is the sort of thing that turns the tides of battle really easily, especially since most armies are, by necessity, made up of low level mooks. It doesn't have the "wow" factor of other schools necessarily but it gets the job done in a really simple way. And when you're using it to kill off dozens of enemies at a time without worry, good mileage. And less prone to situational perfection than some other methods of dealing with large hordes.

Kinda sad you banned Illusion. As I see it, Illusions are always useful. Even low level illusions like Ghost Sound and Silent Image can still be useful at high level. Of course depending on your ability to problem solve obliquely rather than "kill it with fire" being the default response. And based on your DM actually LETTING you do that. That's the real danger with Illusionists, getting stuck with a DM who basically goes, "nope" to any illusion or automatically has every enemy disbelieve them. But if the two aren't true? Then yeah. Illusion rocks. Problems that Evocation, Alteration, Transmutation, etc, could solve if you get to go first and hit the enemy before they can counter, Illusion can bypass entirely.

Just remember when you prep your spell lists for the day to go through a certain checklist.

First up should be any spells that totally bypass encounters. This is normally illusion stuff. Sometimes Enchantment stuff. Anything that allows you to basically look an an encounter and go "nope" and instantly end/avoid it is always going to be useful.

Second up would be spells that totally gimp any given encounter in a general sense. That would be things like Wall of Force, always useful. It doesn't END an encounter, but basically allows you to control it in a lot of simple, basic ways.

Third would be Twinkeriffic spells that are basically open ended skeleton keys that are useful in a wide array of situations. This is normally a lot of low level stuff like Grease, but there are examples in higher levels, particularly in the Summon Monster category. Anything that makes you look at the spell description and go, "Hmm... I can think of 5 different ways to use that spell in highly useful, common situations, in just 2 seconds." would fit here.

Fourth would be Finisher spells. Spells based on ending a fight that you already have controlled and dominated. This would tend to be evocation spells on your list, necromantic spells, etc. The spells designed to put the boot in something that you already have handled. Control and gaining advantage doesn't mean anything if you don't have a way to finish off the targets.

That's my general priority for preparing spells. And generally a good priority. If a spell is REALLY narrow in use, like... Hold Portal, or Knock. That usually doesn't get added to my spell list. Instead I scribe a scroll of it and call it good. When I need it, I'll need it. But it's not worth taking up what could otherwise be a useful spell day in and day out for the one time in 10 days it might be useful.

[Shining Wrath]

My rule for Wizards and Sorcerers and the like:
Limit yourself to EXACTLY one direct-damage spell per level. And then every other spell you learn should be adding to your flexibility.

The best spells, as noted many times, can take a whole group of monsters out of the battle for a round, or two, or five.

Consider the 3rd level spell Stinking Cloud (no copyright, in D20SRD).

Stinking cloud creates a bank of fog like that created by fog cloud, except that the vapors are nauseating. Living creatures in the cloud become nauseated. This condition lasts as long as the creature is in the cloud and for 1d4+1 rounds after it leaves. (Roll separately for each nauseated character.) Any creature that succeeds on its save but remains in the cloud must continue to save each round on your turn.

Now imagine that the enemy is in a classic "Sword and board thugs form a line, evil caster behind them" formation. And behind the evil caster is a wall, because you've just chased them down.

Drop Stinking Cloud on the caster. Then your large strong friends (don't leave camp without them!) use Bull Rush and push the thugs into the cloud. The save is Fortitude based; the thugs may make it the first time, but the odds are that the caster will be nauseated and unable to get out of the cloud except by emerging, retching and unable to cast, right next to your large strong friends. Thwocking ensues. Few things make a Barbarian's eyes light up like a helpless evil caster standing right next to him.

In this situation, a single spell completely eliminated the enemy caster, and enabled your teammates to use tactics to debilitate the enemy physical fighters.

[Sudain]

My rule for Wizards and Sorcerers and the like:
Limit yourself to EXACTLY one direct-damage spell per level. And then every other spell you learn should be adding to your flexibility.

The best spells, as noted many times, can take a whole group of monsters out of the battle for a round, or two, or five.


I agree and I disagree. I agree wizards should have blasting capacity. I dropped a stinking cloud on 7 dire jackals who were mauling our tank(1 dps). 5/7 failed their save as did the dps. He exited the cloud and so did the jackels, who got 2 rounds of being nauseated and he got 5. So he nearly died as he was again surrounded by the jackels and being nipped to death. All the while I could way was, "I really wish I had a fireball right now". The player of the DPS was not happy to say the least. I'm sure he would've preferred being fire balled as he at least would've still been able to contribute to the battle.

I'd suggest the wizard pick a ratio for their spells. For example 2 blasting per level, 1 social and 1 buff per spell level. Or 1 Utilty, 1 summoning, 1 buff and 1 debuff. It gives them some consistency while allowing them flexabilty. Whatever the ratio picked, just be consistent. Don't consider school spcalization or bounus spells into that; those are just that - bonus.

Oh, my other advice for the first time wizard: don't worry so much about the 'blasting versus not blasting' debate. It's about the difference between 6.6 and 6.8, with everything else relying upon circumstances. Figure out the rules of wizarding, and if you like wizarding. That's what you should focus on, IMHO.

[Story]

Other ways of forcing a flying dragon to "land" include necromancy spells that debuff it's strength, such as Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Waves of Fatigue and so on. A flying creature has to be strong enough to hold itself aloft or it crashes, and exhausting the target might also render it incapable of moving fast enough to stay up.


Where are the rules on that? It would have been really handy to know last session.

[Shining Wrath]

I agree and I disagree. I agree wizards should have blasting capacity. I dropped a stinking cloud on 7 dire jackals who were mauling our tank(1 dps). 5/7 failed their save as did the dps. He exited the cloud and so did the jackels, who got 2 rounds of being nauseated and he got 5. So he nearly died as he was again surrounded by the jackels and being nipped to death. All the while I could way was, "I really wish I had a fireball right now". The player of the DPS was not happy to say the least. I'm sure he would've preferred being fire balled as he at least would've still been able to contribute to the battle.

I'd suggest the wizard pick a ratio for their spells. For example 2 blasting per level, 1 social and 1 buff per spell level. Or 1 Utilty, 1 summoning, 1 buff and 1 debuff. It gives them some consistency while allowing them flexabilty. Whatever the ratio picked, just be consistent. Don't consider school spcalization or bounus spells into that; those are just that - bonus.

Oh, my other advice for the first time wizard: don't worry so much about the 'blasting versus not blasting' debate. It's about the difference between 6.6 and 6.8, with everything else relying upon circumstances. Figure out the rules of wizarding, and if you like wizarding. That's what you should focus on, IMHO.

I guess I should have said "rule of thumb" ... because you've also got to consider your role in the party. Some parties need the caster to be The Hammer. As for your example, if someone on your side rolls a "1" on a SR they should make, it can screw up the best laid plans of mice and DM's.

[killem2]

You'll be fine being a specialist evoker. You will want to ban another school, which after reading I think you picked Illusion. I prefer enchantment, and necromancy, when evocation is not a choice. :)

I had a DMPC that was a focused specialist evoker and it was very fun and the party love it.

(DMPC = Dungeon Master Player Character)

But it got too much for me to manage along side the growing party and eventully we just didn't need the wizard.

You'll want to focus as much as you can on spells that will deal the most damage as possible since you've focused on evocation. (Despite this forums out right dismissal of a wizard doing damage as a 1st priority)

Persistent Blades is a very fun spell with rogues and melee in the party, but if you can't go outside of the core book that's ok too.

Magic Missle is something you can't go wrong with, I would advise you to google "Treantmonk's Guide to Evocation" that will go a long way to helping you.

[Flickerdart]

Oh, I didn't see that you were higher level.

Can you retrain levels? Spellwarp Sniper is great for an Evoker, because it lets you turn those pesky "reflex half" spells into rays. Very handy for those spells that also have a special effect on a failed save, because now it applies to everything!

[Sudain]

I guess I should have said "rule of thumb" ... because you've also got to consider your role in the party. Some parties need the caster to be The Hammer. As for your example, if someone on your side rolls a "1" on a SR they should make, it can screw up the best laid plans of mice and DM's.

Right on! :)