Shadow Familiar

[Newoblivion]

My Shadowcaster have a bat as a Shadow Familiar. Now, as a Shadow Familiar my bat have HiPS. Is it possible for him to hide all the way to the target, enter the target's square (hidden), and only then touch it? thus not provoking an attack?

I am quite sure that if you are hidden you wont provoke an AoO, but I am not sure how its working with small creatures that need to enter the target's square.

[peacenlove]

Combat Modifiers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm)


Total Concealment

If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).

You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.

So as long as the bat is not detected (via blindsight / total vision perhaps?) it can attack the target unmolested, even multiple times, if possible (via haste maybe).

[Urpriest]

Entering the target's square doesn't make the bat stop being hidden. However, be aware that to be hidden you need cover or concealment, and the Dark template doesn't remove that requirement.

[Exirtadorri]

Would obscuring mist around the target qualify?

[Urpriest]

Would obscuring mist around the target qualify?

Yes, that would be one thing that could do it. Note that without help the concealment would also affect the bat.

[Exirtadorri]

Dont bats have like a blind sense of 10 feet?

[Urpriest]

Dont bats have like a blind sense of 10 feet?

Just blindsense, not blindsight.

[Piggy Knowles]

Shadowcasters should have no trouble creating concealment. The Black Candle fundamental's darkness option creates 20% concealment, and it gets quite a few uses of that per day (and eventually gets it at-will).

[Newoblivion]

Entering the target's square doesn't make the bat stop being hidden. However, be aware that to be hidden you need cover or concealment, and the Dark template doesn't remove that requirement.

Isn't the all point of hide in plain sight is that you dont need cover or concealment?

[SillySymphonies]

Isn't the all point of hide in plain sight is that you dont need cover or concealment?

You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. (...) If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): Use the Hide skill even while being observed (except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or a similar ettect).
To hide, one needs both cover/concealment and to not be observed. 'Hide in plain sight' obviates the need for the latter, not the former.

[Newoblivion]

Hmmm.. so how will it work then?

My familiar is on me, hidden. I cast touch of idiocy, then my familiar fly to touch the target. Will he be spotted as soon as he leaves my square?

My point is that I am looking for a way for my tiny familiar not to be chopped in half each time he is trying to touch a target. I want to know if HiPS is a good tool.

[SillySymphonies]

My point is that I am looking for a way for my tiny familiar not to be chopped in half each time he is trying to touch a target. I want to know if HiPS is a good tool.
Hide in plain sight is a good tool, but you're only halfway there: your familiar should have concealment (or cover) as well. (I reckon there'd be some shadowcaster 'spell' which grants easy concealment.) Note that then it's still Spot vs. Hide, and once the familiar attacks, it gets a -20 to Hide: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm.

Does that clear things up?

[Newoblivion]

Yes, kinda.

So if I am following you right. I can (for example) cast darkness on my dark bat, and then send him to attack. Then he can use Retreat to return to me without provoking AoO.

(My DM allowed me to see through my own darkness spells, so my bat can see through also).

[SillySymphonies]

Then he can use Retreat to return to me without provoking AoO.

The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square. (...) If, during the process of withdrawing, you move out of a threatened square (other than the one you started in), enemies get attacks of opportunity as normal.
A bat is diminutive (0 ft. reach) and must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. So when withdrawing, your familiar still has to go trough one of the opponent's threatened squares, and since it didn't start in it, still provokes an attack of opportunity.

Note also that your familiar needs a rather high Hide skill to consistently beat the opponent's spot at -20 ("It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.")

[supermonkeyjoe]

Yes, kinda.

So if I am following you right. I can (for example) cast darkness on my dark bat, and then send him to attack. Then he can use Retreat to return to me without provoking AoO.

(My DM allowed me to see through my own darkness spells, so my bat can see through also).

no, if your bat is in a darkness spell he only has concealment (20% miss chance) only total concealment (50% miss chance) can negate AoOs

If the bat makes as successful hide check (which it would be able to do at any time due to HiPS and concealment from the darkness spell) then it could move anywhere without provoking Attacks of Opportunity

Your shadow bat familiar should have a hide check of +22 (+14 bat +8 dark creature template) and even if it gets spotted once it attacks it can just make another hide check on its next move action to move out of the space, it doesn't even need to withdraw.

[SillySymphonies]

If the bat makes as successful hide check (which it would be able to do at any time due to HiPS and concealment from the darkness spell) then it could move anywhere without provoking Attacks of Opportunity

Your shadow bat familiar should have a hide check of +22 (+14 bat +8 dark creature template) and even if it gets spotted once it attacks it can just make another hide check on its next move action to move out of the space, it doesn't even need to withdraw.
^This. Nevermind what I wrote: supermonkeyjoe has the right of it.

[Newoblivion]

He have hide 29. He have my ranks in hide also :)

[Dusk Eclipse]

To hide, one needs both cover/concealment and to not be observed. 'Hide in plain sight' obviates the need for the latter, not the former.

Minor correction, Ex Hide in Plain Sight (such as the one from ToM Dark Template) only obviates the need to not being seen, SU HiPS (like the assassin's or Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave's Dark Template) read like this



Hide in Plain Sight (Su)
At 8th level, an assassin can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow.

OP if you have a really nice DM, ask him if you can get the Dark template from Cormyr, that simple change makes it more useful and not that stronger since Shadowcaster can get concealment remarkable easy.

[Newoblivion]

Minor correction, Ex Hide in Plain Sight (such as the one from ToM Dark Template) only obviates the need to not being seen, SU HiPS (like the assassin's or Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave's Dark Template) read like this



OP if you have a really nice DM, ask him if you can get the Dark template from Cormyr, that simple change makes it more useful and not that stronger since Shadowcaster can get concealment remarkable easy.

The funny thing is that this is the adventure we are at right now :D