[PF] oh gods, so many acid flasks!

[oxybe]

so we're a dozen sessions in the Kingmaker campaign, just finished the first module and the party is half-way to level 4. here's the campaign wiki for those interested (http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/lords-of-the-green/wikis/main-page). now that most characters will have about 2000+ gp worth of spending money and my character is a rather proficient alchemist. we're using an alternative crafting system (the "making craft work" pdf) with a few minor tweaks

long story short, if all goes according to plan i'll be able to make lots of acid flasks very quickly as we have some downtime coming up.

now the main purpose of being able to make lots of acid/alchemist fire/lightning/ice is to help beef up on my main weaknesses, basically if i can't target it with mind-effecting stuff, my options are severely limited, what with being enchantment focused and all.

now 2 issues start occurring.

1: a single thrown flask of acid does VERY little to enemies of our level and it's not going to get any better. 1d6 is nary a scratch. it was a great thing early on, but at this point throwing the flask is "helping" in name only.

2: as i said we have lots of downtime coming so i'm able to make lots of acid really quickly and cheaply. a week's downtime can easily lead to a dozen flasks and that number will double in a few levels.

soon i'll also be devising a method of storing all those acid flasks, most likely a bag of holding. and then i'll try to think of a way to expelling them all in one direction.

i just don't want to go "i spend 330gp to make a bunch of acid flasks" then go to a boss "i expel all these flasks in your general direction then cast shatter while they're in midair/at your feet. you take 100 instances of 1d6 acid, save for half".

does anyone know of a reasonable actual rule or house rule for doing something like this? i don't want to break the game by insta-killing bosses or important enemies via massive amounts of cheap items, i just want to do something helpful when my enemies are immune to mind-effecting stuff.

this happened multiple times already (a giant trapdoor spider, various centipedes, spider swarms, shambling mound. in that order) and i'm sure it won't be the last time. it's no fun going "i lob a d6 at an enemy and sit on my thumbs" or "i grant him a +1 to a roll and sit on my thumbs".

most grenade/explosives are rather lackluster in their damage but using them en masse seems too overpowered if they're not resistant thanks to how quickly and cheap they are to make.

[TuggyNE]

Quick Draw + Two Weapon Fighting to throw a lot in one full attack? Worse comes to worst, you can just eat the no-feat penalties; they are touch attacks, after all.

[MagnusExultatio]

Quick Draw

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-draw-combat---final


Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.

[Seharvepernfan]

Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.

To the Rule Zero-mobile!

[GrimoireM]

Why not stuff them in a bag and use the Throw Anything Feat?

I'd probably use small bags with 2 or 3 flasks, adjusted as you go up in level. It'll cost a little extra, but you can re flavor it as paying X gp to access a less flexible version of the Alchemist's Bomb class feature, with the damage being capped at your character level = Alchemist level. Talk to your DM about the idea. If you like the nova situation, bring that up as well. Doubling the number of dice you roll (assuming you use the cap) would be a suitable trade for a large number of your 'bombs'. You might outshine the rest of the team at that point, but it's a once every down time trick, so it should be fine.

[subject42]

Could you use an adventurer's sash (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/clothing-accessories#TOC-Adventurer-s-Sash) packed with vials as a melee weapon? It would probably require some DM fiat, but if I were in your DM's shoes, I'd do it.

[Zubrowka74]

Why don't you just duct-tape the flasks in packs of 3 or 4, scalled to the threath you're facing? You would'nt do that much damage but it would be better than a puny d6.

Duct-tape solves everything.

Also, is there any rules on crafting oversized items ? Like an oversized weapon deals more damage, so would one or two quarts of vicious acid. You could smash acid jugs in the BBEG's face and laugh like a maniac.

[oxybe]

first off, thanks for all the replies.

@tuggyne: quickdraw+twf, even if houseruled, would require me to be at least level 7 to make that work. we're half-way to level 4. it's also a rather big feat investment to deal 2d6 damage.

@GrimoireM: throw anything is an option i've been thinking of for delivery. whatever the resulting abomination is, it definitely won't be a standard splash weapon, to say the least. the main method of carrying the potions will be the eventual bag of holding i always get.

now i might not have made it clear. it's not an issue of damage per acid flask, but rather an issue of scaling by sheer volume. the main issue i had was that using the current rules, with a week of downtime, i can make 10 normal 1d6 acid flasks for the cost of "just a few more then making a potion of cure light" and release them all at once on a target.

a make-shift alchemist's bomb would be a stop-gap for better damage per flask, but by level 5 i should have all things i need for far more destructive means of execution.

throwing 1d6 acid flask is ineffective against a CR 3-4 monster. helping in name only. now, a 10d6 (or more!) bomb could very well be lethal as most CR4 critters have 40-50 HP (avg dam is 35).

so the issue is not so much building the better acid delivery system, but rather fixing the rules for a massed volley of acid / acid bath.

@subject42 if i'm in melee combat and can't mind effect my way out of it, i'm already far past "doing it wrong" and in the territory of "HELPHELPHELPHELPHELP"

for most enemies, if they aren't immune to mind-effecting then i've got better options then the flasks. otherwise i'd rather 5ft step, draw from the bag of holding and then flask 'em rather then walk around with a dozen pounds of sulfuric acid strapped to my chest. i know my luck: that is just asking for trouble.

like shatter. that would ruin my day.

and my everything.

@Zubrowka74 i don't think i've seen rules for oversized crafting, at least not stuff like acid flasks. the base crafting rules are made of butts where value of the item determines time to craft rather then complexity. the new ones we're using does the opposite, using a sliding scale of complexity to determine time.

[Ravenica]

well, a an aside theres no listed reflex save for acid flask, everyone in the area takes damage so i see the appeal...

but dammit just make fireworks, so much more fun :smalltongue:

there is a magical bandolier that works similar to a bag of holding for small items that will let you full attack with thrown weapons which might help, but its costly so not a low level solution

I'd consider asking your dm for some options to add poisons to your acids, hell most acids are poisonous anyway

There is no RAW options for upping acid damage so pretty much anything you are going to try will need dm aprroval anyway

[subject42]

Talk to your DM about the Equipment Trick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/equipment-trick-combat) feat. Maybe with some give and take you can make it apply to acid flasks in some interesting way.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'm guessing you are Nisha.

Make, or have made for you, a command word item (at will) of Launch Item, if your DM is willing to use 3.5 material (it's backwards-compatible), or get a Launching Crossbow, if your DM doesn't. This will let you launch splash weapons, which gives you something to do with your splash weapons from long range. If you are forced to use the Launching Crossbow, try and build toward Crossbow Mastery, if you can, to make the sting of that full-round action reload time less painful (and to let you make iterative attacks--woo!), but I strongly (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14355460&postcount=47) recommend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14492583) that you get an item of Launch Item in its stead. Beg your DM if you have to. Hell, bribe him with pizza if need be.

Second, don't bother mass-producing acid. Produce some vials of acid (and alchemist's fire, which should probably be your main attack form), but use your alchemy for utility. It's a 3.5 list, but the one in my signature has literally hundreds of items you can make with alchemy--and, being that alchemy is a core feature in Pathfinder (with the Alchemist base class and all), I can guarantee you that Pathfinder's alchemy list is well-supported. At the least, you should be packing some thunderstones and tanglefoot bags, some form of alchemical grease, smoke powder/smokesticks (or flash powder, or some equivalent), sunrods, etc., etc... And also mundane items of various qualities as well (caltrops, grappling hooks, rope, etc). Alchemists aren't explosive damage-dealers; they're the ultimate "mundane" utility character. Take advantage of that.

(Again, hate to beat a dead horse, but Launch Item is a force multiplier for this type of build.)

[oxybe]

@Ravenica

full attack is, at best, only going to be an option at level 11. i have a BAB of 1/2 level.

fireworks have their place, most often as distractions (firecrackers and the like) or signal flares, but in combat the ones in the book are a bit too unpredictable in the short ranges we normally skirmish at.

as for poisons, most poisons in pathfinder are rubbish, as they were in 3.5. the cost to DC ratio is too high. and while a few are kinda worth it, but they tend to be far and few in-between. you're often better off to simply deal more damage then hope 1d3 dex with a low DC can weaken them.

the drugs though, are stupid good if you can find a way to make people take them as many deal con damage on a single dose.

@Lonely Tylenol
yup, i'm nisha. no clue what launch item is, but i'm guessing it launches items at a greater distance then then normal 10ft increment?

as for utility of the items on hand, my actual item list is rather large and kept on my physical character sheet the gm keeps. the internet one is more of a quick reference of things to note.

if you're looking at the items. spells and whatnot on the bottom of the character sheet, those are just there for DM adjudication/ruling reference purposess and things to look out for (specifically the scour and brewed reek). rather then keep the various emails on our back & forths open on my laptop or printed out, i've just slapped them all there.

while i love utility, damage is also a tool i'd like to have at my disposal if needed. the times you wish you had a hammer are almost always the time you're without one.

[Slipperychicken]

Acid damage ought to cap at 10d6 from a single projectile, the amount caused by total immersion. You can't get more splashed than that. Perhaps every two flasks worth of acid after the first in the same projectile adds 1d6 points of damage? And flinging so much acid ought to impose penalties for both improvisation and inappropriate size.

Seconding Tanglefoot Bags. Get some CC up.

[TuggyNE]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-draw-combat---final

Bah, I forgot PF nerfed that style for some reason. (No real idea why they did that, even, except maybe misguided balance concerns?)

[ericgrau]

To the Rule Zero-mobile!

Oddly enough the restriction was added in PF. 3.5 is quite clear that it's fine.

Yes it does seem to eliminate a lot of fun builds that were totally fine, which were also a big chunk of the people who take quick draw.

[Slipperychicken]

Bah, I forgot PF nerfed that style for some reason. (No real idea why they did that, even, except maybe misguided balance concerns?)

Because taking 6 seconds to open and gulp an overpriced 1oz beverage while walking 30ft shatters the action economy and is totally impossible IRL. Nope, even people who run on air and kill people with a touch can't do that. It's just that hard.

[Crustypeanut]

As an Alchemist, don't forget you add your Intelligence modifier to all thrown splash weapons, not just Bombs. So say your Int is +4, then you deal 1d6+4 per acid flask, with 5 splash damage.

Its not amazing, but its far better than just the base flasks of acid. I'm currently playing an Alchemist in the Carrion Crown Campaign (Crypt Breaker, I'm the group's trap finder), and while I'm only level 1, I carry around numerous flasks on me just in case. My bombs only deal 1d4+4 to non-undead and non-constructs, so having flasks of acid/alchemists fire dealing 'normal' level 1 bomb damage is a good alternative.

We're using a bit of a house rule (or it might not be a house rule, depending on the GM's interpretation) where it only takes a move action to take out the flask and a standard to throw it, none of that 'full round to prepare' crap. I'm also using a pair of bandoliers with my flasks on 'em.

Anyways.. I recommend tying a few together with twine. I'm already planning on doing that with tindertwigs and fuse grenades. :smalltongue:

[ericgrau]

The full round to prepare rule is only for using 1 silver piece oil flasks as if they were 20 gp alchemist's fire. To insert a fuse and light it. Alchemist's fire OTOH needs no fuse because it explodes on impact. Other than the prep time lantern oil is identical to alchemist's fire. Unless Pathfinder nerfed all that too. If you have a round before the fight and nothing better to do then lantern oil is a great way to save 20 gp or a "spell" slot. Carry a few.

[Crustypeanut]

The full round to prepare rule is only for using 1 silver piece oil flasks as if they were 20 gp alchemist's fire. To insert a fuse and light it. Alchemist's fire OTOH needs no fuse because it explodes on impact. Other than the prep time lantern oil is identical to alchemist's fire. Unless Pathfinder nerfed all that too. If you have a round before the fight and nothing better to do then lantern oil is a great way to save 20 gp or a "spell" slot. Carry a few.

Well, the book doesn't specifically state that its only for oil flasks and the like (Except that it does mention it under the Oil description). In the Actions in Combat section it specifically states it as 'prepare a splash weapon'.

Granted, it makes perfect sense the way you describe it, and thats how we're treating it. But the book itself doesn't really explain it properly like it should. So for ages we would use it as it takes a full round action to take out a flask of acid/tanglefoot bag/thunder stone, meaning no one used 'em. -_-

I'm glad I did reading up on this stuff so we could clarify this. 'course my DM still dislikes Alchemists for various reasons.