Kill my Invulnerable Rager [PF]

[Xerxus]

Kill my Barbarian

This thread is all about killing my current build in imaginative and interesting ways, so I'll know how it can be done and with what (and possibly tweak the build). This is a character which I am currently playing (at lvl 4) in a game and couldn't possibly be warded against everything, but I can damn well try. His concept is just being a diehard.

It should be a way in which a fair but homicidal DM would be willing to do it in a satisfying way, without too much cheese - cheddar but not gruyere. It shouldn't really be about kiting and/or teleporting away from me, at least not a build relying on it and taking too long to kill me.

The encounter is as follows:

Your challenger and my barbarian meet in an open field, you can specify the distance. I'm level 18, you can be lvl 18 and from now on a monster of your choosing! Within reasonable CR of course, probably can't survive the Tarrasque (or can I?). I'm already raging, you get the first turn. Not a surprise turn.

We have already had the halforc-hunting Ranger, loads of wizards with time stop, a couple of sneak attack based builds and cavaliers on griffons. For more details read the thread, but bear in mind that this edit is being done around 11:30 PM GMT+1 on the 31/1, and includes a small tweak on the build. Page 11-12 is probably where it gets more relevant.


Fighters very welcome!

The build while raging:

Rovan
Male Half-Orc (Mystic) Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) 18
N Medium Humanoid (human, orc)
Init +3; Senses darkvision; Perception +26
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 32, touch 22, flat-footed 29 (+11 armor, +3 Dex, +5 natural, +5 deflection)

hp 320 (18d12+180) (Don't forget Diehard + Deathless Initiate!)

Fort +27 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +15, Will +20 (+4 vs. enchantments); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons, +2 trait bonus vs. fear, +6 morale bonus vs. spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities but must resist all spells, even allies'

Defensive Abilities indomitable will; DR 18/lethal, 9/—; Resist fire 5, extreme endurance (fire)

The Improved Stalwart means that I can put out 10 extra DR as long as I can activate total defense or Combat Expertise.
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft.

Melee +1 Adamantine Shortsword +29/+24/+19/+14 (1d6+11/19-20/x2) or
+3 Furious, Speed Adamantine Earth breaker +33/+33/+28/+23/+18 (2d6+20/x3) or
Armor spikes +28/+23/+18/+13 (1d6+10/x2)

My damage depends a lot on whether it is viable for me to use Power Attack and Raging Brutality. Also, as long as you are a spellcaster I get 5 extra damage per hit from Witch Hunter.

Ranged +1 Darkwood Composite longbow (Str +10) +22/+17/+12/+7 (1d8+11/x3)

Special Attacks rage (48 rounds/day)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 30, Dex 16, Con 30, Int 13, Wis 21, Cha 10

Base Atk +18; CMB +28; CMD 44 (48 vs. Disarm, 48 vs. Sunder)

Feats Combat Expertise +/-5, Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Deathless Initiate, Diehard, Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice), Heroic Defiance (1/day), Improved Stalwart, Power Attack -5/+10, Raging Brutality (+10), Stalwart

Traits Brute (APG), Courageous

Skills Acrobatics +23 (+27 jump), Climb +17, Escape Artist +2, Fly +2, Handle Animal +6, Intimidate +22, Perception +26, Ride +10, Stealth +2, Survival +26, Swim +17 (+21 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion)

Languages Common, Goblin, Orc

SQ fast movement +10, rage powers (come and get me, eater of magic [1/rage], ghost rager, renewed life [4 negative level[s]] [1/day], renewed vigor 4d8+10 hp [1/day], renewed vitality [9] [1/day], spell sunder, superstition +6, witch hunter [+5])

Combat Gear Helm of teleportation; Other Gear +5 Armor spikes Mithral Breastplate, +1 Adamantine Shortsword, +1 Darkwood Composite longbow (Str +10), +3 Furious, Speed Adamantine Earth breaker, Arrows (100), Amulet of natural armor +5, Belt of physical might (Str & Con +6), Cloak of resistance +5, Gloves of dueling, Headband of inspired wisdom +6, Ring of evasion, Ring of protection +5, Winged boots (3/day)
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Combat Expertise +/-5 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.

Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.

Come and Get Me (Ex) Enemies get +4 to hit and damage you, but attacks provoke AoO from you.

Courageous +2 save vs. fear.

Damage Reduction (18/lethal) You have Damage Reduction against non-lethal damage.

Damage Reduction (9/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks. Don't forget Improved Stalwart.

Damage Resistance, Fire (5)

Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).

Deathless Initiate Not staggered while using Diehard; gain +2 on melee damage rolls

Diehard You are stable and can choose how to act when at negative Hp.

Eater of Magic (1/rage) (Su) Once per rage, when a barbarian fails a saving throw against a spell, supernatural ability, or spell-like ability, she can reroll the saving throw against the effect (this is not an action). If she succeeds at the second saving throw, she is not affected and gains temporary hit points equal to the caster level of the effect.

Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice) +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.

Extreme Endurance (Fire) (Ex) At 3rd level, the invulnerable rager is inured to either hot or cold climate effects (choose one) as if using endure elements. In addition, the barbarian gains 1 point of fire or cold resistance for every three levels beyond 3rd.

Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.

Ghost Rager (Su) While raging, the barbarian deals normal damage to incorporeal creatures even when using nonmagical weapons. She also gains a morale bonus to touch AC equal to her saving throw bonus from her superstition rage power. A barbarian must have the superstition rage power to take this rage power.

Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.

Heroic Defiance (1/day) Delay the onset of a harmful affliction or condition until the end of your next turn.

Improved Stalwart Double DR gained from Stalwart

Indomitable Will (Ex) While in rage, a barbarian of 14th level or higher gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, including the morale bonus on Will saves she also receives during her rage.

Power Attack -5/+10 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.

Rage (48 rounds/day) (Ex) +6 Str, +6 Con, +3 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.

Raging Brutality (+10/15 for twohanded) Add Constitution bonus on damage rolls.

Renewed Life (4 negative level(s)) (1/day) (Ex) When raging, ignore the effect of 4 temporary negative levels. Read the description on the srd for more info.

Renewed Vigor 4d8+10 Hp (1/day) (Ex) As a standard action while raging, you can heal yourself the listed amount.

Renewed Vitality (9) (1/day) (Ex) When raging, ignore the effect of 9 point(s) of ability penalty or damage. Read the description on the srd for more info.

Ring of evasion No damage if you succeed on a Reflex save for half damage.

Spell Sunder (Su) Once per rage, the barbarian can attempt to sunder an ongoing spell effect by succeeding at a combat maneuver check. For any effect other than one on a creature, the barbarian must make her combat maneuver check against a CMD of 15 plus the effect's

Stalwart Forgo dodge AC bonus for equivalent DR.

Superstition +6 (Ex) While raging, gain bonus to save vs magic, but must resist all spells, even allies'. Don't forget this.

Winged boots (3/day) Fly as spell for up to 5 minutes. +4 to fly checks.

Witch Hunter (+5) (Ex) Bonus to damage spellcasters while raging.






The former original post with older builds is to be found here:

I'm level 18, you're level 18 of whatever. We meet in an open field, I'm already raging. You get the first turn.

Don't plane shift and haunt me till the end times, kill me right here and now. I want you to use conventional and unconventional means of slaying this character or otherwise incapacitating it. Nothing that a fair but homicidal DM wouldn't throw out with RULES AS INTENDED!

I edited this post 19:13 29/1 in order to include my character sheet and to inform you that this is in pathfinder, where no save against your spells is a rare thing.

These stats are while raging.

Unnamed Hero
Half-Orc (Mystic) Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) 18
N Medium Humanoid (human, orc)
Init +5; Senses darkvision; Perception +26
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 32, touch 16, flat-footed 29 (+11 armor, +3 Dex, +5 natural, +5 deflection)
hp 320 (18d12+180)
Fort +27 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +15, Will +21 (+4 vs. enchantments); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons, +6 morale bonus vs. spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities but must resist all spells, even allies'
Defensive Abilities indomitable will; DR 18/lethal, 9/—; Resist fire 5, extreme endurance (fire)
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +3 Furious, Shock, Speed Adamantine Earth breaker +33/+33/+28/+23/+18 (2d6+20+1d6 electricity/x3) and
Armor spikes +28/+23/+18/+13 (1d6+10/x2)
Special Attacks rage (48 rounds/day)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 30, Dex 16, Con 30, Int 13, Wis 21, Cha 10
Base Atk +18; CMB +28; CMD 44 (48 vs. Disarm, 48 vs. Sunder)
Feats Combat Expertise +/-5, Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Deathless Initiate, Diehard, Disruptive, Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice), Extra Rage Power, Improved Stalwart, Power Attack -5/+10, Raging Brutality (+10), Spellbreaker, Stalwart
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +21, Climb +15, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Handle Animal +6, Intimidate +21, Perception +26, Ride +8, Stealth +0, Survival +26, Swim +15 (+19 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion)
Languages Common, Goblin, Orc
SQ fast movement +10, rage powers (clear mind [1/rage], disruptive, eater of magic [1/rage], renewed life [4 negative level[s]] [1/day], renewed vigor 4d8+10 hp [1/day], renewed vitality [9] [1/day], spell sunder, spellbreaker, superstition +6, witch hunter [+5])
Combat Gear Helm of teleportation, Potion of bear's endurance, Potion of bull's strength, Potion of cat's grace, Potion of enlarge person, Potion of fly, Potion of good hope, Potion of heroism, Potion of nondetection, Potion of remove curse, Potion of remove disease, Potion of restoration, lesser, Potion of water breathing; Other Gear +5 Armor spikes Adamantine Breastplate, +3 Furious, Shock, Speed Adamantine Earth breaker, Amulet of natural armor +5, Belt of physical might (Str & Con +6), Cloak of resistance +5, Gloves of dueling, Headband of inspired wisdom +6, Ring of evasion, Ring of protection +5, Winged boots (3/day)
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Clear Mind (1/rage) (Ex) Reroll a failed Will save while raging.

Combat Expertise +/-5 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.

Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.

Damage Reduction (18/lethal) You have Damage Reduction against non-lethal damage

Damage Reduction (9/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.

Damage Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.

Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).

Deathless Initiate Not staggered while using Diehard; gain +2 on melee damage rolls

Diehard You are stable and can choose how to act when at negative Hp.

Disruptive Gain the Disruptive feat while raging.

Disruptive +4 DC to cast defensively for those you threaten.

Eater of Magic (1/rage) (Su) Once per rage, when a barbarian fails a saving throw against a spell, supernatural ability, or spell-like ability, she can reroll the saving throw against the effect (this is not an action). If she succeeds at the second saving throw, she is not affe

Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice) +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.

Extreme Endurance (Fire) (Ex) At 3rd level, the invulnerable rager is inured to either hot or cold climate effects (choose one) as if using endure elements. In addition, the barbarian gains 1 point of fire or cold resistance for every three levels beyond 3rd. This ability

Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.

Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.

Improved Stalwart Double DR gained from Stalwart

Indomitable Will (Ex) While in rage, a barbarian of 14th level or higher gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, including the morale bonus on Will saves she also receives during her rage.

Power Attack -5/+10 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.

Rage (48 rounds/day) (Ex) +6 Str, +6 Con, +3 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.

Raging Brutality (+10) Add Constitution bonus on damage rolls

Renewed Life (4 negative level(s)) (1/day) (Ex) When raging, ignore the effect of 4 temporary negative levels.

Renewed Vigor 4d8+10 Hp (1/day) (Ex) As a standard action while raging, you can heal yourself the listed amount.

Renewed Vitality (9) (1/day) (Ex) When raging, ignore the effect of 9 point(s) of ability penalty or damage.

Ring of evasion No damage if you succeed on a Reflex save for half damage.

Spell Sunder (Su) Once per rage, the barbarian can attempt to sunder an ongoing spell effect by succeeding at a combat maneuver check. For any effect other than one on a creature, the barbarian must make her combat
maneuver check against a CMD of 15 plus the effect's

Spellbreaker Gain the Spellbreaker feat while raging.

Spellbreaker If an enemy you threaten fails to cast defensively, they provoke an AoO from you.

Stalwart Forgo dodge AC bonus for equivalent DR

Superstition +6 (Ex) While raging, gain bonus to save vs magic, but must resist all spells, even allies'.

Winged boots (3/day) Fly as spell for up to 5 minutes. +4 to fly checks.

Witch Hunter (+5) (Ex) Bonus to damage spellcasters while raging.

I edited this post again on the 30/1 at 8:26 in order to include a small update, henceforth this is the correct sheet:

EDIT: Forgot Heroic Defiance.

Unnamed Hero
Half-Orc (Mystic) Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) 18
N Medium Humanoid (human, orc)
Init +5; Senses darkvision; Perception +26
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 32, touch 16, flat-footed 29 (+11 armor, +3 Dex, +5 natural, +5 deflection)
hp 320 (18d12+180)
Fort +27 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +15, Will +21 (+4 vs. enchantments); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons, +6 morale bonus vs. spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities but must resist all spells, even allies'
Defensive Abilities indomitable will; DR 18/lethal, 9/—; Resist fire 5, extreme endurance (fire)
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +3 Furious, Speed Adamantine Earth breaker +33/+33/+28/+23/+18 (2d6+20/x3) and
Armor spikes +28/+23/+18/+13 (1d6+10/x2)
Special Attacks rage (48 rounds/day)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 30, Dex 16, Con 30, Int 13, Wis 21, Cha 10

Base Atk +18; CMB +28; CMD 44 (48 vs. Disarm, 48 vs. Sunder)

Feats: Combat Expertise +/-5, Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Deathless Initiate, Diehard, Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice), Heroic Defiance, Improved Stalwart, Power Attack -5/+10, Raging Brutality (+10), Stalwart

Traits: Indomitable Faith, Reactionary

Skills: Acrobatics +21, Climb +15, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Handle Animal +6, Intimidate +21, Perception +26, Ride +8, Stealth +0, Survival +26, Swim +15 (+19 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion)
Languages Common, Goblin, Orc

SQ: fast movement +10, rage powers (clear mind [1/rage], come and get me, eater of magic [1/rage], heroic defiance [1/day], renewed life [4 negative level[s]] [1/day], renewed vigor 4d8+10 hp [1/day], renewed vitality [9] [1/day], spell sunder, superstition +6, witch hunter [+5])

Combat Gear: Helm of teleportation, Potion of bear's endurance, Potion of bull's strength, Potion of cat's grace, Potion of enlarge person, Potion of fly, Potion of good hope, Potion of heroism, Potion of nondetection, Potion of remove curse, Potion of remove disease, Potion of restoration, lesser, Potion of water breathing; Other Gear +5 Armor spikes Adamantine Breastplate, +3 Furious, Speed Adamantine Earth breaker, Amulet of natural armor +5, Belt of physical might (Str & Con +6), Cloak of resistance +5, Gloves of dueling, Headband of inspired wisdom +6, Ring of evasion, Ring of protection +5, Winged boots (3/day)
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Clear Mind (1/rage) (Ex) Reroll a failed Will save while raging.

Combat Expertise +/-5 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.

Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.

Come and Get Me (Ex) Enemies get +4 to hit and damage you, but attacks provoke AoO from you.

Damage Reduction (18/lethal) You have Damage Reduction against non-lethal damage

Damage Reduction (9/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks. This is increased to 19/- if Improved Stalwart and Combat Expertise are activated.

Damage Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.

Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).

Deathless Initiate Not staggered while using Diehard; gain +2 on melee damage rolls.

Diehard You are stable and can choose how to act when at negative Hp.

Eater of Magic (1/rage) (Su) Once per rage, when a barbarian fails a saving throw against a spell, supernatural ability, or spell-like ability, she can reroll the saving throw against the effect (this is not an action). If she succeeds at the second saving throw, she is not affected and gets the effect's caster level as temporary hit points.

Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice) +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.

Extreme Endurance (Fire) (Ex) At 3rd level, the invulnerable rager is inured to either hot or cold climate effects (choose one) as if using endure elements. In addition, the barbarian gains 1 point of fire or cold resistance for every three levels beyond 3rd.

Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.

Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.

Heroic Defiance (1/day) Delay the onset of a harmful affliction or condition until the end of your next turn.

Improved Stalwart Double DR gained from Stalwart.

Indomitable Will (Ex) While in rage, a barbarian of 14th level or higher gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, including the morale bonus on Will saves she also receives during her rage.

Power Attack -5/+10 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.

Rage (48 rounds/day) (Ex) +6 Str, +6 Con, +3 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.

Raging Brutality (+10) Add Constitution bonus on damage rolls, 15 if using a two-handed weapon.

Renewed Life (4 negative level(s)) (1/day) (Ex) When raging, ignore the effect of 4 temporary negative levels.

Renewed Vigor 4d8+10 Hp (1/day) (Ex) As a standard action while raging, you can heal yourself the listed amount.

Renewed Vitality (9) (1/day) (Ex) When raging, ignore the effect of 9 point(s) of ability penalty or damage.

Ring of evasion No damage if you succeed on a Reflex save for half damage.

Spell Sunder (Su) Once per rage, the barbarian can attempt to sunder an ongoing spell effect by succeeding at a combat maneuver check. For any effect other than one on a creature, the barbarian must make her combat maneuver check against a CMD of 15 plus the effect's caster level.

Stalwart Forgo dodge AC bonus for equivalent DR.

Superstition +6 (Ex) While raging, gain bonus to save vs magic (all supernatural effects), but must resist all spells, even allies'.

Winged boots (3/day) Fly as spell for up to 5 minutes. +4 to fly checks.

Witch Hunter (+5) (Ex) Bonus to damage spellcasters while raging.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm an 18th level wizard, and just to prove I can I hit you with a maximized disintigrate with the DC jacked up to "lol no." Then I watch the dusty remains blow away as I casually stroll off of the field.

[Xerxus]

There is no such thing as a lol no. My fortitude save would be an unmodified +26 with a potential reroll.

[Ethdred]

Why are you invulnerable? Why can't I just fly around and magic missile you to death?

[Xerxus]

Got wings. With a rage power.

[hymer]

While Kelb decides whether or not to type up just how bad it can get, I'll cast Forcecage (windowless cell). Then a quickened dimension door to be sure I'm out of charge range. Your move.

[Xerxus]

Unmodified Reflex would be pretty high as well. You'll have to write out your DCs. Also how far away are you?

[Newoblivion]

Evasculate + sudden quicken power word stun?

[hymer]

There's no save (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forcecage.htm).

I'm 1120 feet away plus any distance that was between us already.

[Alabenson]

Forcecage
Celerity
Maw of Chaos (SC pg. 140)

You are now trapped in an unbreakable cage for the rest of the day (no save), are taking 18d6 damage a round for the next 18 rounds (no save), and must make a DC 30 Will Save every round for the next 18 rounds or be dazed.

I, on the other hand, have the rest of the day to blast you with whatever spells I happen to have on hand.

[Xerxus]

This is Pathfinder, as I thought my barbarian archetype - invulnerable rager - would give away, but I should have written it in the title. So there is a save:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/forcecage

Fighting magicians in DnD would be suicide.

But that distance might be a problem, I'll have to give you that...

Never heard about Evasculate.

[The Random NPC]

There's no save (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forcecage.htm).

I'm 1120 feet away plus any distance that was between us already.

There totally is. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/forcecage.html#_forcecage) As this is a PF Barbarian, the PF version of the spell should be used. Also it would be easier to build a counter if we knew what rage powers you had. Otherwise it'll devolve into I hit you, nu-uh, territory.

[Newoblivion]

Evasculate is a necro spell of 7th level that halves your HP. If you fail the save you are stunned if you win you are not stunned but your HP still drops by half. I think its in the SC.

[Xerxus]

The important rage powers would be Renewed Vitality and Life, as well as Superstition and Eater of Magic plus the all too useful Disruptive and Spellbreaker. But these might change, which is why I'm throwing this out there to see how I might fare against a really powerful character ie a mage to most people.

The wings were just a joke. I don't want any totems, just a really basic rage with an attitude that says: You can't kill me.

[Asheram]

For crying out loud, don't just come up with these afterwards.

Give us a build and give us details.

[Slipperychicken]

Half Elf Summoner. Spend all EP on making the Eidolon a bigger, scarier monster than you. Arms and weapon proficiency so it gets weapon iteratives in addition to its brutal natural attack routine, Rend, and Pounce. And I'm sitting behind it, buffing it into high heaven (or just summoning more monsters to fight) while staying out of reach. It could quite possibly out-reach you through size and evolutions (so it's harder to pull off Come and Get Me, at least in the first round). I might even give it gear. Synthesist with Celestial Armor just piles on, but isn't needed.

[Xerxus]

Well, atm it is something like this:

Half-orc Barbarian (Invulnerable rager) 18

Lots of hit points

1st: Endurance, Diehard
2nd: Superstition
3rd: Power Attack
4th: Renewed Vigor
5th: Stalwart
6th: Ground Breaker
7th: Deathless Initiate
8th: Renewed Life
9th: Combat Expertise
10th: Renewed Vitality
11th: Improved Stalwart
12th: Regenerative Vigor
13th: Combat Reflexes
14th: Come and Get Me
15th: Extra Rage Power: Eater of Magic
16th: Disruptive
17th: Extra Rage Power: Spellbreaker
18th: Dont know...

I'm currently at level 4 but might get to 18 in this campaign. Which is why I want someone to try and kill me in a way I have not foreseen.

[Xerxus]

As for ability scores:

Str:18
Dex:16
Con:18 (+1 at 4,12 and 16)
Int:12
Wis:16 (+1 at 8)
Cha:8

And yes, this is very high, but another player got way higher with 4d6L so the challenges have been appropriately buffed.

[Killer Angel]

Well, a cavalier with ride by attack, on a mount with flying speed higher than yours, could be a nice starter...

[Raimun]

I'll Planeshift you to the Plane of Positive Energy. You'll heal to full hit points and some time after that the healing overwhelms you and you burst open.

[Chained Birds]

Barbarians can accumulate a pretty good number of abilities through Rage Power and opting to exchange their normal Feats and a few Feat Trees for more Rage Powers.

Human Barbarian (Totem Warrior / Invulnerable Rager)

FCB: Humans: Add a +1/3 to the bonus from the superstition rage power.
- +6 Bonus on Saves VS Spells by lvl 18

Human Feat : Power Attack
1st lvl Feat: Combat Reflexes
2 = Rage Power: Superstition (+6 on Save VS Spells; Total +12 due to FCB)
3rd lvl Feat: Extra Rage Power = Witch Hunter (+5 Bonus dmg VS Casters)
4 = Rage Power: Renewed Vigor [Prerequisite]
5th lvl Feat: Extra Rage Power = Renewed Vitality [Ignore up to 9 points of Ability dmg or penalties]
6 = Rage Power: Spell Sunder (Sunder Maneuver to Remove Ongoing Spell Effects)
7th lvl Feat: Extra Rage Power = Renewed Life (Ignore up to 4 Negative Levels)
8 = Rage Power: Beast Totem, Lesser [Prerequisite]
9th lvl Feat: Step Up
10 = Rage Power: Eater of Magic (1/Rage Reroll Saving Throw VS Spells + Gain Temp HP if Pass)
11th lvl Feat: Extra Rage Power = Flesh Wound (1/Rage Convert Half Dmg taken to Nonlethal dmg)
12 = Rage Power: Fearless Rage (Immune to Shaken + Fear)
13th lvl Feat: Extra Rage Power = Beast Totem [Prerequisite]
14 = Rage Power: Beast Totem, Greater (Pounce)
15th lvl Feat: Extra Rage Power = Auspicious Mark (+1d6 on a d20 Roll)
16 = Rage Power: Strength Surge (1/Rage +18 on a CMB, CMD, or Strength Check)
17th lvl Feat: Extra Rage Power = Come and Get Me (Cause enemies to provoke AoOs when attempting to hit you)
18 = Rage Power: Internal Fortitude (Immune to Sickened + Nauseated)

Edit: Also, this is solely based around starting at Lvl 18, so an actual build going from lvl 1-18 would reorganize these feats differently.

[Chained Birds]

I'll Planeshift you to the Plane of Positive Energy. You'll heal to full hit points and some time after that the healing overwhelms you and you burst open.


Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes

He can save with a +21 (+12 From Superstition +6 from Base Saves +3 From 16 Wisdom) to his Will Saves [not including Saving Throw Boosting items]

Edit: I'm using his Stats + my Feat / Rage Power Line-up. I think I was able to outline the most "Durable" Barbarian that can still do its job.

[Killer Angel]

17th lvl Feat: Extra Rage Power = Come and Get Me (Cause enemies to provoke AoOs when attempting to hit you)

Well, it's good... unless your enemy has a weapon with a better reach.

[Monodominant]

I have not researched high level pathfinder but I assume some combo of

Arcane Thesis : Enervation
Metamagic School Focus: Necro
Empower Spell
Repeat Spell
Split Ray

Means something like (1d4x1.5) x 2 which repeats next round...

If we are level 18 I will also have a quickening rod so I will that twice...

So now that I am still level 18 and you are (on average) 12 levels lower without doing the quickening part) we can play...

Edit: Oh and Enervation doesnt even have a save in Pathfinder.

[Chained Birds]

Well, it's good... unless your enemy has a weapon with a better reach.

Who says the Barbarian isn't using a Reach Weapon? A barbarian of this level could also afford a Permanent Size Increase along with the Reach Weapon and still cover all bases due to the Claw attacks granted to them by Beast Totem.

[Chained Birds]

I have not researched high level pathfinder but I assume some combo of

Arcane Thesis : Enervation
Metamagic School Focus: Necro
Empower Spell
Repeat Spell
Split Ray

Means something like (1d4x1.5) x 2 which repeats next round...

If we are level 18 I will also have a quickening rod so I will that twice...

So now that I am still level 18 and you are (on average) 12 levels lower without doing the quickening part) we can play...

Edit: Oh and Enervation doesnt even have a save in Pathfinder.

That's a nasty one. At least the Barbarian (Let's call him Bob) can resist 4 Negative Levels and can debatable Spell Sunder the rest of the Negative Levels away as it is an "ongoing spell effect".

Edit: Though I don't know if there is anyway to make Enervation as dangerous as you made it in PF... Though I could be wrong. :smalltongue:

[Killer Angel]

Who says the Barbarian isn't using a Reach Weapon? A barbarian of this level could also afford a Permanent Size Increase along with the Reach Weapon and still cover all bases due to the Claw attacks granted to them by Beast Totem.

To be honest, or we're talkin 'bout a very specific build, or you don't see too often barbarians with reach weapon (spiked chain or similar), so if the opponent starts with a weapon with an higher reach (lance?), it should be always easier for him to have an advantage.
Note that I am avoiding the use of spells, I'm theorizing a fight barbarian Vs Cavalier, and imo the cavalier, with a flying mount and a superior speed, can be a tough nut for the barbarian.

[Olfgar]

So ive never really looked into PF to much, but how exactly does a barbarian get planeshift?

All this is really going to come down to is someone will come up with a melee character you will "planeshift" and then someone else coming up with a high level caster that will just summon lots of bigegr and scarier things than you/fly and blast you to the high heavens/ hit you with something with high save DC's. Then youll reply with "well my <insert save here> has a <high unmodified DC>" And then they will respon with something that doesnt require a save DC, or only gives you a partial. Then of course youll have something to counter that.

So then they will resort to one of the above of "flying and blasting" maybe they will go to a diffrent plane and just use astral projection, or the plane shift you idea, or just summon a bunch of scary ****.

Hell JUST SPAM SHIVERING TOUCH. 3d6 Dex damage, no save, and just spec out to be able to have a 30 foot range on touch spells, fly above you, and make sure its maximized and another one quickend.

Even simply disintigrating your gear will work wonders.

But I, well I have other ideas.

I would dimension door back and fire some spells at max range, just to mess with you. I would intentionaly let you get closer to me, and then teleport. I will teleport away, far away from you. I will spend months and incalculable amounts of gold to form alliances with anything that can comprehend basic intelligence, I will then scry to find where you are, or other divination spells if i must, then I will instruct my forces on where to go.

I will get other adventurers because they are all able to be motivated to do anything for money and magical items. Dragons, the good aligned ones, saying that this man-beast had attacked me because he had hoped to rob me and torture me to help him find dragons to slay and steal their hoards. Outsiders I will bind to this world promising to release them only once you have been slain.

I will then take all my other spell casters tot he astral plane (I think, the one im going for has the faster time flow) and then we shall begin to all astral project our selves and watch as my flight of dragons and devils/demons and celestials take upon you, While the projections of my self and fellow mages unleashe an un ending torrent of debilitations, blasting spells and summons onto and around you.

Should you somehow survive this hellish existence I unleashed upon you in a swift moment, I will then wait, and wait, and wait. I will wait untill you are feeble and old, riddled with waning mental faculties, your body old and witherd, when you wish to live the rest of your days in peace in a small fishing village, and I will raise it to the ground around you. I will look the same as the day we met, a soulless look in my eyes, and a chilling aura about me, for I am a lich since before the day we met. You thought you could best me, but I my friend I have time on my side, I am as timeless as the reaper him self, and you will see that, no matter where you go I WILL find you and I will turn everything you have built up to ruins. Physicaly, you may have been stronger than me at some point, but while your body withers away, mine will have remained the same, through that which is the most powerful force there is, magic.

I wont even need to kill you then, for I will have crippled you into a despair, and if you somehow have enough heart that you do not end your own life so not to prolong the knowledge that you will be allowed nothing in this life, I have just to wait a little while longer. I have waited DECADES just to see your world around you be shatterd in an instant, I can wait a couple mroe knowing that there is nothing you can do to stop the inevitible.

The grasp of time comes only for some of us friend, while others are smart enough to turn time into our ally and friend. I am one of the lucky while you were one of the many who will succumb to it.

[Talderas]

Wish?

Boom. You're dead.

[Chained Birds]

To be honest, or we're talkin 'bout a very specific build, or you don't see too often barbarians with reach weapon (spiked chain or similar), so if the opponent starts with a weapon with an higher reach (lance?), it should be always easier for him to have an advantage.
Note that I am avoiding the use of spells, I'm theorizing a fight barbarian Vs Cavalier, and imo the cavalier, with a flying mount and a superior speed, can be a tough nut for the barbarian.

So let's have Bod wielding his iconic Greatsword vs Evan (the cavalier) Mounted and wielding his iconic Lance. Let's have Bod and Evan be the same size (Medium). Assuming Bod can resist the Spirited Charge (non-critical) hit from Evan's initial strike, Bod is now within Evan's Reach Range.
Bod takes a 5ft step towards Evan and digs into him with his Greatsword. Evan survives and attempts to make a 5ft step back (Our I guess orders his Mount to do so) and thinks he is in the clear. Unfortunately for Evan, Bod has Step Up which allows him to take a 5ft step towards Evan as an Immediate action (Assuming Bod didn't use his Swift Action).
Now Bod is in front of Evan and Evan has a Reach weapon he can't use. Seeing as Evan can no longer take any more movement actions this turn, Evan is kind of stuck unless he has a Feat or Ability that can get him out of this.

[The Glyphstone]

Wouldn't Evan also have Ride-by-Attack?

[Andreaz]

It's a flying barbarian. Just keep distance until the rage wears out.

[Olfgar]

Wish?

Boom. You're dead.

While I like it, It just doesnt have the epic lightshow that casters should be able to provide while REALLY wanting something dead lol.

But its a great fall back xD

[Killer Angel]

So let's have Bod wielding his iconic Greatsword vs Evan (the cavalier) Mounted and wielding his iconic Lance. Let's have Bod and Evan be the same size (Medium). Assuming Bod can resist the Spirited Charge (non-critical) hit from Evan's initial strike, Bod is now within Evan's Reach Range.
Bod takes a 5ft step towards Evan and digs into him with his Greatsword. Evan survives and attempts to make a 5ft step back (Our I guess orders his Mount to do so) and thinks he is in the clear. Unfortunately for Evan, Bod has Step Up which allows him to take a 5ft step towards Evan as an Immediate action (Assuming Bod didn't use his Swift Action).
ow Bod is in front of Evan and Evan has a Reach weapon he can't use. Seeing as Evan can no longer take any more movement actions this turn, Evan is kind of stuck unless he has a Feat or Ability that can get him out of this.

My first post in this thread specified ride by attack and a flying mount, with (i hope) a flying speed higher that Bod's.
Remove the flying part from both... my mount will have horseshoes of speed, or something similar.
If I'm playing a charger cavalier with a lance, the last thing I want to do is to stay near my target, waiting for its retaliation.
Basically, if you have a mundane fight Vs a melee monster, you need good reach and superior speed.

[Chained Birds]

So ive never really looked into PF to much, but how exactly does a barbarian get planeshift?

They don't. The guy was refering to Forcefully Planeshifting the Barbarian (Which Save would negate).


So then they will resort to one of the above of "flying and blasting" maybe they will go to a diffrent plane and just use astral projection, or the plane shift you idea, or just summon a bunch of scary ****.

Isn't leaving the area considered leaving the fight?


Hell JUST SPAM SHIVERING TOUCH. 3d6 Dex damage, no save, and just spec out to be able to have a 30 foot range on touch spells, fly above you, and make sure its maximized and another one quickend.

Doesn't exist in PF.


Even simply disintigrating your gear will work wonders.

Can you target Equipment with Disintegrate?


Wish?

Boom. You're dead.

While Wish doesn't have a save for its "Better word this properly or else you might mess yourself up" portion, if you duplicate a spell that offers a save, then Bod might just save against it on Average.


My first post in this thread specified ride by attack and a flying mount, with (i hope) a flying speed higher that Bod's.
Remove the flying part from both... my mount will have horseshoes of speed, or something similar.
If I'm playing a charger cavalier with a lance, the last thing I want to do is to stay near my target, waiting for its retaliation.
Basically, if you have a mundane fight Vs a melee monster, you need good reach and superior speed.

I missed that sorry.

So assuming a Flying Mount and a Barbarian capable of Flying using a Magic Item (An item that most Melee Based Characters would have by this point), couldn't the Barbarian Charge you and use his Pounce?

[MrLemon]

Waves of exhaustion
half speed, no charging
No save, SR: yes

Come and get me.
Optionally: Quickened Expeditious Retreat

Kill with (maximized empowered) magic missiles to make him more humble before he dies.


Alternatively: He has only a 10% chance per round to get out of a Maze. (And no chance not to get in)

[Elycium]

So ive never really looked into PF to much, but how exactly does a barbarian get planeshift?

All this is really going to come down to is someone will come up with a melee character you will "planeshift" and then someone else coming up with a high level caster that will just summon lots of bigegr and scarier things than you/fly and blast you to the high heavens/ hit you with something with high save DC's. Then youll reply with "well my <insert save here> has a <high unmodified DC>" And then they will respon with something that doesnt require a save DC, or only gives you a partial. Then of course youll have something to counter that.

So then they will resort to one of the above of "flying and blasting" maybe they will go to a diffrent plane and just use astral projection, or the plane shift you idea, or just summon a bunch of scary ****.

Hell JUST SPAM SHIVERING TOUCH. 3d6 Dex damage, no save, and just spec out to be able to have a 30 foot range on touch spells, fly above you, and make sure its maximized and another one quickend.

Even simply disintigrating your gear will work wonders.

But I, well I have other ideas.

I would dimension door back and fire some spells at max range, just to mess with you. I would intentionaly let you get closer to me, and then teleport. I will teleport away, far away from you. I will spend months and incalculable amounts of gold to form alliances with anything that can comprehend basic intelligence, I will then scry to find where you are, or other divination spells if i must, then I will instruct my forces on where to go.

I will get other adventurers because they are all able to be motivated to do anything for money and magical items. Dragons, the good aligned ones, saying that this man-beast had attacked me because he had hoped to rob me and torture me to help him find dragons to slay and steal their hoards. Outsiders I will bind to this world promising to release them only once you have been slain.

I will then take all my other spell casters tot he astral plane (I think, the one im going for has the faster time flow) and then we shall begin to all astral project our selves and watch as my flight of dragons and devils/demons and celestials take upon you, While the projections of my self and fellow mages unleashe an un ending torrent of debilitations, blasting spells and summons onto and around you.

Should you somehow survive this hellish existence I unleashed upon you in a swift moment, I will then wait, and wait, and wait. I will wait untill you are feeble and old, riddled with waning mental faculties, your body old and witherd, when you wish to live the rest of your days in peace in a small fishing village, and I will raise it to the ground around you. I will look the same as the day we met, a soulless look in my eyes, and a chilling aura about me, for I am a lich since before the day we met. You thought you could best me, but I my friend I have time on my side, I am as timeless as the reaper him self, and you will see that, no matter where you go I WILL find you and I will turn everything you have built up to ruins. Physicaly, you may have been stronger than me at some point, but while your body withers away, mine will have remained the same, through that which is the most powerful force there is, magic.

I wont even need to kill you then, for I will have crippled you into a despair, and if you somehow have enough heart that you do not end your own life so not to prolong the knowledge that you will be allowed nothing in this life, I have just to wait a little while longer. I have waited DECADES just to see your world around you be shatterd in an instant, I can wait a couple mroe knowing that there is nothing you can do to stop the inevitible.

The grasp of time comes only for some of us friend, while others are smart enough to turn time into our ally and friend. I am one of the lucky while you were one of the many who will succumb to it.


Damn man, you´re evil D: now I feel bad for the barbarian.

Was half of that even necesary?

[akahdrin]

I didn't really read much into this, but an ego whip with extra points augmented in will drop your charisma to 0 even on a successful save and you fall unconscious. I tend to ruin kids days who think charisma is a dump stat though ;) Basically anything faster than you with range will kill you. I think a group of 5 level 3 psions could drop you quick enough just by doing that let alone 1 single level 18 one.

Also a swift hunter will destroy you in a single round without really trying.

If you're trying to win at this game, you're playing the wrong game. Just have fun, there is always a bigger fish than you, especially if you're just a barbarian. This isn't even going into druids, wizards, and clerics who would drop you in a heart beat without even really doing much more than burning a few spells for the day and thanking you for whatever loot you just gave them.

[Chained Birds]

Waves of exhaustion
half speed, no charging
No save, SR: yes

Come and get me.
Optionally: Quickened Expeditious Retreat

Kill with (maximized empowered) magic missiles to make him more humble before he dies.


Alternatively: He has only a 10% chance per round to get out of a Maze. (And no chance not to get in)

Got me with the Exhaustion thing. In order to get by that I would need to get Endurance, 2 Levels of Horizon Walker, and Arouse Anger Rage Power.

All in all, not the worst changes to the class, but now no longer straight Barbarian and losing a few Rage Powers in the process...

[AgentofHellfire]

I play an 18th level sorcerer, 32 point buy, base race either Spellscale or Aasimar, with the spellcasting prodigy feat.


I cast Time Stop around me, giving me 2-5 rounds of time to start casting Delayed Blast Fireball as many times as possible. I have in my possession a metamagic rod of Maximize that lets me do 108 damage with three of them, Reflex half.

In fact, let's say I have two, because I can. Six fireballs dealing 108 damage each, as soon as the Time Stop ends, and even if you make your saves, that's still 54 each, totalling over 300 points of damage.

I can recast time stop right as the duration of the first draws to a close, up to four times.

I win. :smallbiggrin:

[Xerxus]

@Olfgar

Or maybe I win Initiative and just simply bash your face in in one hit. The point is how can you kill me right then and there, what spells are there etc. Sure, you can teleport away with dimension door, but I'm not here to kill you. If that were the case then I'd simply be wearing a ring of three wishes and wish that I was five feet away from you and poised to strike. Also, I'm pretty sure that there is no shivering touch in Pathfinder.

[Krazzman]

I didn't really read much into this, but an ego whip with extra points augmented in will drop your charisma to 0 even on a successful save and you fall unconscious. I tend to ruin kids days who think charisma is a dump stat though ;) Basically anything faster than you with range will kill you.

Also a swift hunter will destroy you in a single round without really trying.

If you're trying to win at this game, you're playing the wrong game. Just have fun, there is always a bigger fish than you, especially if you're just a barbarian.

Not really. Swift hunter doesn't exist in PF. Furthermore this Barbarian has DR 9/-, nonlethal DR18/-, and Resistance against either fire or ice. And yes I know about Clustered Shots and Hammer the Gap.

[Chained Birds]

Build Changes to reflect the limitations brought up with the last build.

Enervation is now more threatening, though Spell Sunder might be able to negate it if the negative levels don't immediately devour Bob the Barbarian.

Bob

Human Barbarian (Totem Warrior / Invulnerable Rager) 16 / Horizon Walker 2

FCB: Humans: Add a +1/3 to the bonus from the superstition rage power.
- +5 Bonus on Saves VS Spells by lvl 15

Human Feat : Power Attack
1st lvl Feat: Combat Reflexes
2 = Rage Power: Superstition (+6 on Save VS Spells; Total +11 due to FCB)
3rd lvl Feat: Extra Rage Power = Witch Hunter (+5 Bonus dmg VS Casters)
4 = Rage Power: Renewed Vigor [Prerequisite]
5th lvl Feat: Extra Rage Power = Renewed Vitality [Ignore up to 9 points of Ability dmg or penalties]
6 = Rage Power: Spell Sunder (Sunder Maneuver to Remove Ongoing Spell Effects)
7th lvl Feat: Endurance [Prerequisite]
8 = Rage Power: Beast Totem, Lesser [Prerequisite]
9th lvl Feat: Step Up
10 = Rage Power: Eater of Magic (1/Rage Reroll Saving Throw VS Spells + Gain Temp HP if Pass)
11th lvl Feat: Extra Rage Power = Rouse Anger (Essentially, Immune to Fatigue)
12 = Rage Power: Fearless Rage (Immune to Shaken + Fear)
13th lvl Feat: Extra Rage Power = Beast Totem [Prerequisite]
14 = Rage Power: Beast Totem, Greater (Pounce)
15th lvl Feat: Extra Rage Power = Internal Fortitude (Immune to Sickened + Nauseated)
16 = Rage Power: Strength Surge (1/Rage +18 on a CMB, CMD, or Strength Check)
17th lvl Feat: Extra Rage Power = Come and Get Me (Cause enemies to provoke AoOs when attempting to hit you)

Horizon Walker:
1st/ Favored Terrain (Desert)
2nd/ Terrain Mastery (Desert) [Immune to Exhaustion]

[Killer Angel]

I missed that sorry.

So assuming a Flying Mount and a Barbarian capable of Flying using a Magic Item (An item that most Melee Based Characters would have by this point), couldn't the Barbarian Charge you and use his Pounce?

no problem. :smallwink:

Absolutely yes... but this leaves one questions open:
Is the flying speed of the barbarian, superior to the mount's?
with boots, the barbarian got 60' flying speed; a griffon has 80', an hippogriff 100', and a pagasus 120'. Without a real flying mount, the cavalier will have a figurine of w. power (yeah, the griffon) for such an evenience...

[Xerxus]

I play an 18th level sorcerer, 32 point buy, base race either Spellscale or Aasimar, with the spellcasting prodigy feat.


I cast Time Stop around me, giving me 2-5 rounds of time to start casting Delayed Blast Fireball as many times as possible. I have in my possession a metamagic rod of Maximize that lets me do 108 damage with three of them, Reflex half.

In fact, let's say I have two, because I can. Six fireballs dealing 108 damage each, as soon as the Time Stop ends, and even if you make your saves, that's still 54 each, totalling over 300 points of damage.

I can recast time stop right as the duration of the first draws to a close, up to four times.

I win. :smallbiggrin:

Ring of evasion.

[Lord_Gareth]

Ring of evasion.

Post your complete build with items.

This is the second time someone has asked that of you. Post your complete build or the challenge is invalid. You keep altering goalposts - put up or shut up, aye?

[Talderas]

While Wish doesn't have a save for its "Better word this properly or else you might mess yourself up" portion, if you duplicate a spell that offers a save, then Bod might just save against it on Average.

If it's not replicating the spell, but rather the effects of the spell, then there is no save. However, since death is not on the list of uses of wish there's some leeway on whether it would work.

For more flashy.

Contingency + Gate

Set the contingency up as "in the middle of charge when a hostile character is charging at me and targeting 5 ft in front of the hostile foe".

You end up charging through the gate to a plane of my choice.

[GnomeGninjas]

Post your complete build with items.

This is the second time someone has asked that of you. Post your complete build or the challenge is invalid. You keep altering goalposts - put up or shut up, aye?

This is basically schrödinger's wizard but with a barbarian and items instead of a wizard and spells. His items are whatever he needs to defeat a specific threat.

[Xerxus]

Post your complete build with items.

This is the second time someone has asked that of you. Post your complete build or the challenge is invalid. You keep altering goalposts - put up or shut up, aye?

As I wrote above, I'm currently at level 4 out of a possible 18. How exactly am I supposed to know what magic items I am going to have at level 18? Maybe you can tell me, because your posting isn't exactly helping otherwise. My post has nothing to do with a perfect or complete build, I just want to know how one could kill a tough character and with what. Then I can look up magic items that would counter some things and try to work out how to gear out/modify my character. As an example, a ring of evasion would be a good idea as the above post suggests.

[Lord_Gareth]

As I wrote above, I'm currently at level 4 out of a possible 18. How exactly am I supposed to know what magic items I am going to have at level 18? Maybe you can tell me, because your posting isn't exactly helping otherwise. My post has nothing to do with a perfect or complete build, I just want to know how one could kill a tough character and with what. Then I can look up magic items that would counter some things and try to work out how to gear out/modify my character. As an example, a ring of evasion would be a good idea as the above post suggests.

Did Pathfinder throw away the idea of a wealth-by-level table? If not, then you can make a build. You asked us to fight a build, not a gigantic hypothetical might-be-a-barbarian. If you want us to post a way to destroy your 'invulnerable' Barbarian, post him. If not, then this entire exercise is pointless.

[Chained Birds]

no problem. :smallwink:

Absolutely yes... but this leaves one questions open:
Is the flying speed of the barbarian, superior to the mount's?
with boots, the barbarian got 60' flying speed; a griffon has 80', an hippogriff 100', and a pagasus 120'. Without a real flying mount, the cavalier will have a figurine of w. power (yeah, the griffon) for such an evenience...

You do have to meet Bob Halfway in order to hit him, so as long as you remain within 120ft or less away from Bob, Bob can Charge you.


Post your complete build with items.

This is the second time someone has asked that of you. Post your complete build or the challenge is invalid. You keep altering goalposts - put up or shut up, aye?

I don't have any specifics (As I suck at High Level Buying).

So far my Build includes:
- A Magic Item that Grants Fly (As the Spell)
- A Reach Weapon and a Greatsword
- Maybe an Item or Purchased Permanency (Enlarge Person)

Suggestions for Bob the Barbarian concerning items? :smallfrown:


Did Pathfinder throw away the idea of a wealth-by-level table? If not, then you can make a build. You asked us to fight a build, not a gigantic hypothetical might-be-a-barbarian. If you want us to post a way to destroy your 'invulnerable' Barbarian, post him. If not, then this entire exercise is pointless.

WBL for a lvl 18 Character in PF is 530,000 gp.

[Chained Birds]

If it's not replicating the spell, but rather the effects of the spell, then there is no save. However, since death is not on the list of uses of wish there's some leeway on whether it would work.

For more flashy.

Contingency + Gate

Set the contingency up as "in the middle of charge when a hostile character is charging at me and targeting 5 ft in front of the hostile foe".

You end up charging through the gate to a plane of my choice.

Contingency, What's that? I only speak PF. :smalltongue:

[Bovine Colonel]

Did Pathfinder throw away the idea of a wealth-by-level table? If not, then you can make a build. You asked us to fight a build, not a gigantic hypothetical might-be-a-barbarian. If you want us to post a way to destroy your 'invulnerable' Barbarian, post him. If not, then this entire exercise is pointless.

I think the whole point of the exercise is to figure out those details.

[Xerxus]

I think the whole point of the exercise is to figure out those details.

Thank you. Exactly. So far it's a Barbarian with the feats and rage powers that I posted earlier with a ring of evasion, a breastplate and a greatsword.

[Lord_Gareth]

I think the whole point of the exercise is to figure out those details.

Not really sure that's going to work. You can't prepare to fight spellcasters - you can't, it doesn't work, and especially not in a PF only game. I mean, what're you going to do when you're facing down a sorcerer using Paragon Surge to pick up Extra Spells Known so he can just keep cycling through your defenses until he finds the one you missed? What're you going to do when the dude teleports a few hundred feet from you and starts choking the battlefield with summoned monsters? How are you going to deal with blasters hopped up on free metamagic reducers from sorcerer bloodlines? Magus builds who don't give a single, solitary damn about your charge because, hey, they wanted to be in melee already anyway?

[Killer Angel]

You do have to meet Bob Halfway in order to hit him, so as long as you remain within 120ft or less away from Bob, Bob can Charge you

Well, i don't need to meet Bob halfway, but only during my charge action.
I need only 10' for the charge to be effective.
Let's say we start at 30', both flying... i charge and continue my move for the other 130'. Your double move in charge is 120'.

I'm not saying "nah, you cannot touch me EVAR", the variables in such a tactical combat are many, but the odds are not against the Cavalier, imo.

[AgentofHellfire]

Ring of evasion.

Fair enough.


18th level spellscale sorcerer then, with the Prodigy (Charisma) template. Notable possessions include a metamagic rod of quickening, plus a Cloak of Charisma and Headband of Intellect.


First round, I cast Resilient Sphere, making it impossible for you to hit me.

Then, I use my metamagic rods to cast three Quickened Greater Planar Bindings, going for Horned Devils each casting. Assuming base Charisma 18+2 racial+2 template+4 level+6 Cloak+Spellcasting prodigy, and Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus in Conjuration, I can get the DC up to 32 easily, which is enough to beat a Horned Devil's (+15) Will modifier the majority of the time. And my Charisma modifier is high enough (11+4 template=+15) to have a significant advantage over the devils there too (they have +6).

So you have 3 of those guys on you in 3 rounds, at least. If I buy another metamagic rod, you have 6, in 6 rounds.

[Menteith]

If you want I could fully stat up the build for you, but here's the idea of it;

Mindchemist Alchemist with Elixir of Life, Doppelganger Simulacrum, Fast Bombs and Confusion Bomb.

You're fighting a Doombot Doppelganger Simulacrum to begin with, since there's literally no reason to not adventure as one (seriously, it's like Astral Projecting from your Demiplane with a slight GP cost added on). Confusion Bomb doesn't allow a save - if you're hit with the thing, you're Confused for 18 rounds. Regardless of whether or not you go first and hit the target (which may be difficult, as the Alchemist actually has room to pick up Tumor Familiar for a Compy and Improved Initiative, giving a good Initiative advantage to them), the Elixir of Life will trigger and immediately Resurrect him and give him his turn. This assumes that the Alchemist is caught by surprise, and only has all day buffs going (Delayed Consumption for Universal Formula, for example). If we allow for stuff like Caging Bomb Admixture (which is downright stupid with Fast Bombs, and doesn't allow a saving throw - good luck hacking through multiple layers of Hardness 20 360HP cages), the Alchemist comes out even further ahead.

EDIT
I'll actually stat it up, throwing it up in a second.
Half-Orc Mindchemist Alchemist

Stats (with a 28 PB);
Str 7
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 43 (starting = 20, +5 Tome, +6 Headband, +8 Grand Cognatogen)
Wis 11
Cha 7

Buffs active - Displacement [Eternal Potion], Barkskin +5 [Extend Potion], Heroism [Extend Potion], Delayed Consumption (Universal Formula, giving Immediate Action access to any 3rd level or lower Extract, Elixir of Life (Basically a Contingent Resurrection that occurs on death), is actually a Doombot, Haste from Boots of Haste.

Armor Class: 39 (+5 Mithril Brestplate [+11 armor], +2 Dex, Barkskin [+5 enhancement to Natural Armor], Ring of Protection +5 [Deflection], +6 Grand Cognatogen [+6 Natural Armor])

Attack Routine: +15/+15/+15/+12/+7 against Touch AC, the first direct hit will deal 7d6+25 (and 32 damage on the next turn) and Confuse you for 18 rounds (no save). He will then move onto Frost Bombs (DC35 Fort Save against Staggered) and Tanglefoot Bombs (DC35 Ref Save against stuck to the floor/gluing wings to your if you're flying). These later bombs deal 9d6+25 damage and 34 damage on the next turn if they hit.

Discoveries/Feats by level
1: Splash Weapon Mastery
2: Infusion
3: Improved Initiative
4: Tanglefoot Bomb
5: Point Blank Shot
6: Tumor Familiar (getting a Compy)
7: Rapid Shot
8: Confusion Bomb
9: Extra Discovery: Alchemist Simulacrum
10: Fast Bombs
11: Extra Discovery: Extend Potion
12: Greater Cognatogen
13: Extra Discovery: Sticky Bomb
14: Doppelganger Simulacrum
15: Iron Will
16: Elixir of Life
17: Extra Discovery: Grand Cognatogen
18: Frost Bomb (might as well be able to target every save I guess)

Yeah, there's a bunch of room to mess around with stuff in here, I'm doing this quickly.

[Xerxus]

Fair enough.


18th level spellscale sorcerer then, with the Prodigy (Charisma) template. Notable possessions include a metamagic rod of quickening, plus a Cloak of Charisma and Headband of Intellect.


First round, I cast Resilient Sphere, making it impossible for you to hit me.

Then, I use my metamagic rods to cast three Quickened Greater Planar Bindings, going for Horned Devils each casting. Assuming base Charisma 18+2 racial+2 template+5 level+6 Cloak+Spellcasting prodigy, and Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus in Conjuration, I can get the DC up to 33 easily, which is enough to beat a Horned Devil's (+15) Will modifier the majority of the time. And my Charisma modifier is high enough (11+4 template=+15) to have a significant advantage over the devils there too (they have +6).

So you have 3 of those guys on you in 3 rounds, at least. If I buy another metamagic rod, you have 6, in 6 rounds.

Hm. That does sound tricky. Are you sure that you can cast spells that target the outside from inside the sphere?

[Talderas]

Contingency, What's that? I only speak PF. :smalltongue:

Based on the source for Pathfinder spells that I am looking at, it's exists. I also missed a max 6th level spell contingencied in the description and that the spell needs to target you. Blech.

[Xerxus]

Not really sure that's going to work. You can't prepare to fight spellcasters - you can't, it doesn't work, and especially not in a PF only game. I mean, what're you going to do when you're facing down a sorcerer using Paragon Surge to pick up Extra Spells Known so he can just keep cycling through your defenses until he finds the one you missed? What're you going to do when the dude teleports a few hundred feet from you and starts choking the battlefield with summoned monsters? How are you going to deal with blasters hopped up on free metamagic reducers from sorcerer bloodlines? Magus builds who don't give a single, solitary damn about your charge because, hey, they wanted to be in melee already anyway?

Don't know if a Magus could do it, and distance is a factor yes, but in general this character idea is about just storming straight through a horde of summoned monsters rather than fighting it. An intrinsic DR of 19/- gets you pretty far. Boots of teleportation etc could be used to counter dimension door, but maybe it's not good enough. Give me some ideas, magic items that do interesting things etc. Maybe casters are invincible, maybe people have assumed it for too long and stopped trying.

[AgentofHellfire]

Hm. That does sound tricky. Are you sure that you can cast spells that target the outside from inside the sphere?


As long as they don't require line of effect, yes.

So no rays or cones, but summonings and callings are both fine.

[Xerxus]

If you want I could fully stat up the build for you, but here's the idea of it;

Mindchemist Alchemist with Elixir of Life, Doppelganger Simulacrum, Fast Bombs and Confusion Bomb.

You're fighting a Doombot Doppelganger Simulacrum to begin with, since there's literally no reason to not adventure as one (seriously, it's like Astral Projecting from your Demiplane with a slight GP cost added on). Confusion Bomb doesn't allow a save - if you're hit with the thing, you're Confused for 18 rounds. Regardless of whether or not you go first and hit the target (which may be difficult, as the Alchemist actually has room to pick up Tumor Familiar for a Compy and Improved Initiative, giving a good Initiative advantage to them), the Elixir of Life will trigger and immediately Resurrect him and give him his turn. This assumes that the Alchemist is caught by surprise, and only has all day buffs going (Delayed Consumption for Universal Formula, for example). If we allow for stuff like Caging Bomb Admixture (which is downright stupid with Fast Bombs, and doesn't allow a saving throw - good luck hacking through multiple layers of Hardness 20 360HP cages), the Alchemist comes out even further ahead.

EDIT
I'll actually stat it up, throwing it up in a second.

Damn alchemists. A mix with the class I'm playing would give you a hit point total of maybe 6-700 with deathless initiate. Thankfully, my DM banned it in our current campaign.

[Krobar]

I've been lurking around here for a long time now - there's a lot of great info to be found here. But I simply have to address this.

I wish for this necklace of strangulation to immediately appear around your neck.

Or...

I wish for your mouth and nose to be immediately and irrevocably sovereign-glued shut.

I've used both of these.

[Vaz]

I'm level 18, you're level 18 of whatever. We meet in an open field, I'm already raging. Gear and so on is pretty basic for a high-lvl character. You get the first turn. Hit me.

Timestop Gate Epic Advanced Dragon/Pit Fiend/Balor/Solar Teleport.

Hell, any Scroll of Gate will beat the Barbarian.

[Lord_Gareth]

Don't know if a Magus could do it, and distance is a factor yes, but in general this character idea is about just storming straight through a horde of summoned monsters rather than fighting it. An intrinsic DR of 19/- gets you pretty far. Boots of teleportation etc could be used to counter dimension door, but maybe it's not good enough. Give me some ideas, magic items that do interesting things etc. Maybe casters are invincible, maybe people have assumed it for too long and stopped trying.

That 19/- isn't going to mean jack all if he picks his summons wisely. The idea isn't to summon melee brutes, it's to call in creatures with SLAs that can pile the spells on against the barbarian, or to bring in creatures that deal non-physical damage to just ignore the DR entirely. Why should I summon one useless giant when I can have two Trumpet Archons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/archon/trumpet-archon/summoned-creature-trumpet-archon), two Nalfeshnees (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/nalfeshnee) to spam greater dispels on your items, or THREE gorgons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/gorgon) to spam save-or-die petrifications? And that's per spell. And that's just the summoner!

[Xerxus]

I've been lurking around here for a long time now - there's a lot of great info to be found here. But I simply have to address this.

I wish for this necklace of strangulation to immediately appear around your neck.

Or...

I wish for your mouth and nose to be immediately and irrevocably sovereign-glued shut.

I've used both of these.

Doesn't say which type of damage, and not trying to be a munchkin, but wouldn't damage reduction work against that? But suffocation is a problem. Maybe I can cut up a hole in my neck, or behind the chin.

[AgentofHellfire]

Maybe casters are invincible, maybe people have assumed it for too long and stopped trying.


To be fair, I'm using mainline DnD and not pathfinder, because they're similar enough in my mind anyway, and I don't own any of the pathfinder books.

So maybe in pathfinder you'd be fine. XD

[Lord_Gareth]

I've been lurking around here for a long time now - there's a lot of great info to be found here. But I simply have to address this.

I wish for this necklace of strangulation to immediately appear around your neck.

Or...

I wish for your mouth and nose to be immediately and irrevocably sovereign-glued shut.

I've used both of these.

Neither of those technically work, but producing a bag of dust of sneezing and choking works GREAT.

[Lord_Gareth]

To be fair, I'm using mainline DnD and not pathfinder, because they're similar enough in my mind anyway, and I don't own any of the pathfinder books.

So maybe in pathfinder you'd be fine. XD

Pathfinder shafted melee more, not less, and removed a lot of options that theoretically let it compete. Plus there's the aforementioned Paragon Surge, which is god tier flexibility is what it is.

[Krobar]

Neither of those technically work, but producing a bag of dust of sneezing and choking works GREAT.

Well, they worked when I was the victim, and hence worked when I was the vindictive jerk using them.

But I fail to see why they don't technically work?

[Lord_Gareth]

Well, they worked when I was the victim, and hence worked when I was the vindictive jerk using them.

But I fail to see why they don't technically work?

Wish has very defined safe limits. Producing the necklace is within those limits; producing it in a specific location technically falls outside of it. Likewise with the glue, etc, etc, which means that suggesting such a use is solely and completely in the realm of DM fiat.

[Krobar]

Wish has very defined safe limits. Producing the necklace is within those limits; producing it in a specific location technically falls outside of it. Likewise with the glue, etc, etc, which means that suggesting such a use is solely and completely in the realm of DM fiat.

Ahh. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.
I already *have* the necklace. It's in my hand, and hence I'm referring to it as "this" necklace... I'm just using a Wish to move it from here to there.

I already have the glue, too. I'm just using the Wish to apply it to his mouth and nose.

[Worguron]

To heck with everyone's casters.

Eighteenth level Ranger with Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Deadly Aim, Hammer the Gap, Clustered Shots, Improved Precise Shot, Quick Draw, and Far Shot. Add in Favored Enemy +8 against your race for the sweet attack and damage bonuses and the appropriate Favored Terrain at +8 for .

Make your weapon a +5 Speed Adaptive Distance Composite Longbow with +1 Bane, Phase Locking, and the appropriate alignment enhancements arrows (unless you're True Neutral, there is at least one that would affect you). Only other items I'd need after that are a stat bonus belt (Str and Dex), a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Quicken, and Boots of Teleportation.

Using your own stats as my starting point (and swapping things around to fit the character) -

Str 18 (+6 item could make it 24)
Dex 18 (add in levels and +6 item to make it 28)
Con 16
Int 12
Wis 16
Cha 8

Spells to have active - Gravity Bow (2d6 instead of 1d8 damage), Aspect of the Falcon (+1 attack, +3 perception, increase threat range)

Hunter's Eye (+20 perception, see invis, ignore concealment)

Start up close, use Rod to quicken Hunter's Eye (+20 Perception, See Invis, and ignore concealment), drop the rod, Quick Draw bow take a single shot with an arrow (thus phase locking you), and then teleport back using my boots to make myself 1000 feet away.

A single round of full attacks would then be (Speed, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Deadly Aim) -

+36 (Two Arrows), +36, +36, +31, +26, +21 (Calculations 18bab+9dex+5enhance+2bane+8favoredenemy+1aspect-5deadlyaim-4rangeincrements +2Quarry)

Each arrow would deal 2d6 (Base with Gravity Bow)+7 (Str)+7 (Enhancement with Bane) +8 (Favored Enemy) +10 (Deadly Aim) +2d6 (assuming one alignment enhancement) for a total of 4d6+32 each. Each hit adds an additional +1 damage to the arrows after it (Hammer the Gap), and the damage is totaled before calculating damage reduction (Clustered Shots).

Assuming every shot hits (not likely, but still, let's calculate max damage) that'd be 28d6+239 -19DR = an Average of 318 damage in a round if every shot hits (and assuming no crits which are 19-20/x3). If not, well, I still have a couple more rounds before you get to me with your current speed, and if you do get close, I hit you with a single arrow and teleport away again (which I can do a total of three times).

Oh, and my base perception check would be a +63 to see you and would ignore concealment and invisibility.

Yeah, I think that'll do.

Edit - Forgot Quarry which would add +2 to all attacks. It has been added.

[Menteith]

Damn alchemists. A mix with the class I'm playing would give you a hit point total of maybe 6-700 with deathless initiate. Thankfully, my DM banned it in our current campaign.

Enh, Alchemists aren't nearly as strong as a well built Wizard, I just happen to like playing them more (I like the Bomb mechanic, I think that the Discovery subsystem is better than many of the other ones like Rogue Talents, they're strong enough to compete with most any class outside of TO, etc).

I could toss up a PF Wizard or Sorc build too, if you want.

[Slipperychicken]

Well, they worked when I was the victim, and hence worked when I was the vindictive jerk using them.

But I fail to see why they don't technically work?

Or you just buy one and get a summon to use it next to the Barbarian (Contingency Timestop-> summon an intelligent creature which can use the Dust -> pass the Dust to it -> have Summon run up and use it). I think passing is a free action, so it should work fine. If it isn't, use the second Timestop round to ready whatever action is required to pass the Dust.

[Lord_Gareth]

Or you just buy one and get a summon to use it next to the Barbarian (Contingency Timestop-> summon an intelligent creature which can use the Dust -> pass the Dust to it -> have Summon run up and use it). I think passing is a free action, so it should work fine. If it isn't, use the second Timestop round to ready whatever action is required to pass the Dust.

You know, I'm trying to imagine this from the Barbarian's point of view, and it's terrifying. Some wizard appears and tells him his days are over. There's a brief split of time - no more than an eyeblink, really - and suddenly the battlefield is overrun with summoned monsters that came out of NOWHERE and the mage is 1000 feet away, sitting in a bright pink lawn chair and sipping martinis while he raises his middle finger proudly.

[Krobar]

Doesn't say which type of damage, and not trying to be a munchkin, but wouldn't damage reduction work against that? But suffocation is a problem. Maybe I can cut up a hole in my neck, or behind the chin.

It's specifically the strangulation/suffocation that I'm going for.

If I was running a game, and one of the PCs put on a necklace of strangulation and then tried to give himself a tracheotomy, without a whole bunch of ranks in healing he's probably going to fail and just cut his own throat.

Lol. That would be one of those PC actions that gets talked about for years.

[Slipperychicken]

You know, I'm trying to imagine this from the Barbarian's point of view, and it's terrifying. Some wizard appears and tells him his days are over. There's a brief split of time - no more than an eyeblink, really - and suddenly the battlefield is overrun with summoned monsters that came out of NOWHERE and the mage is 1000 feet away, sitting in a bright pink lawn chair and sipping martinis while he raises his middle finger proudly.

This is how I feel every time we have one of these threads. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-qLC_ptImo#t=0m25s)

[Suddo]

I'm posting here because I think I can beat you but it will take some time. I personally think I can just build a better Barbarian. So please post the whole build, alternate class/race features, feats, and rage powers. Please state all equipment bought. If you want we can do this blind and you can message someone.

ALSO PLEASE PUT PATHFINDER IN THE THE TITLE SO PEOPLE DON'T JUST POST 3.5 CHEESE.

[Ravenica]

Hobgoblin Fighter specced for trip and sunder

weapons gone, magic items gone, you are on the ground the entire time you rage

His heavy flail turns you into ground beef after you are done with your impotent barbarian hissy fit

[Lord_Gareth]

Hobgoblin Fighter specced for trip and sunder

weapons gone, magic items gone, you are on the ground the entire time you rage

His heavy flail turns you into ground beef after you are done with your impotent barbarian hissy fit

CMD scales much faster than CMB does. How are you overcoming this?

[Ravenica]

weapon groups scales for fighter, heavy flail and imp/greater feats total up +6 bonus, magic enhancement on the weapon is added as well as weapon focus/greater weapon focus.

There isn't much a level 18 fighter can't trip or sunder (besides things that can't be tripped at all)

[Sacrieur]

Kill you? Oh no sir you think too small.

Do you know how hard it is to come by a good barbarian meatshield these days? Oh no, I won't kill you, I'll dominate you.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There is no such thing as a lol no. My fortitude save would be an unmodified +26 with a potential reroll.

A) getting DC's into the upper 40's isn't that hard.

B) I had no idea this was a pathfinder excersize. If I had I wouldn't even have commented since I know very little about pathfinder.

[Olfgar]

Damn man, you´re evil D: now I feel bad for the barbarian.

Was half of that even necesary?

No, it probably wasnt, but makes for one hell of a way to kill some one lol.

And in response to Birds: There was no specifics in how to kill him or how long it could go. He just said "how would you kill me". If leaving and plotting, and designing the outcome of his barbarians life over years is to be considered the fight being over, it should be considered "over" int he same sense that North and South Korea have been at "peace".

[Olfgar]

@Olfgar

Or maybe I win Initiative and just simply bash your face in in one hit. The point is how can you kill me right then and there, what spells are there etc. Sure, you can teleport away with dimension door, but I'm not here to kill you. If that were the case then I'd simply be wearing a ring of three wishes and wish that I was five feet away from you and poised to strike. Also, I'm pretty sure that there is no shivering touch in Pathfinder.

Its to bad you specified that I get to go first, and dint specify any restrictions on killing you. Sounds liek your just pissed that I though of an elaborate way to kill you.

And if we are going into wish territory, I can already cast them without using rings. And as a good wizard, I would have cast some nifty divination spells today, and found out that I would be encountering you, and prepared accordingly. Hell, If I keep you in cloud kill long enough, youll die. You can make saves to half the con damage, but the cloud will keep mopving, and I can toss out a couple more into the combat area we are in, while flying out of range of both you and my clouds. Then summon in a few things that dont breath like say, earth elementals in there.

[Sacrieur]

Wizards pour a lot into initiative. It's unlikely that you'll win.

[Flickerdart]

weapon groups scales for fighter, heavy flail and imp/greater feats total up +6 bonus, magic enhancement on the weapon is added as well as weapon focus/greater weapon focus.

There isn't much a level 18 fighter can't trip or sunder (besides things that can't be tripped at all)
Does Pathfinder still have the size restriction on Trip?

[OracleofWuffing]

I'm posting here because I think I can beat you but it will take some time. I personally think I can just build a better Barbarian. So please post the whole build, alternate class/race features, feats, and rage powers. Please state all equipment bought. If you want we can do this blind and you can message someone.

ALSO PLEASE PUT PATHFINDER IN THE THE TITLE SO PEOPLE DON'T JUST POST 3.5 CHEESE.
Why bother building a better barbarian? Given that the challenge gives you initiative, you can just build the same barbarian and just do whatever he was going to do to you to him before he does it to you.

[TuggyNE]

As long as they don't require line of effect, yes.

So no rays or cones, but summonings and callings are both fine.

Side note: (nearly) all spells require line of effect; summons and callings specifically require it to the spot they'll put the creature.

[Valdis]

Wait until you get close, then...
Prismatic Sphere + Reverse Gravity ... save or die!
If you manage to make it through the first time, I'll just end the reverse gravity spell and let you fall back through the sphere, 7 more saving throws for you, for a total of 14 in a row... good luck. :smallsmile:

Point is... get something that will allow you fly.

Or I could just be a Cleric and persist Divine Power and pound you to mush :)

[Olfgar]

Wait until you get close, then...
Prismatic Sphere + Reverse Gravity ... save or die!
If you manage to make it through the first time, I'll just end the reverse gravity spell and let you fall back through the sphere, 7 more saving throws for you, for a total of 14 in a row... good luck. :smallsmile:

Point is... get something that will allow you fly.

Or I could just be a Cleric and persist Divine Power and pound you to mush :)

A STR cleric that uses all their nifty little buffs PLUS their power from the strength domain?

Yeah youll be able to reach the DC to rip a dude in half no problem

[gooddragon1]

I'm invisible and farther than your true seeing ability, so is my associate (a skeleton I animated and buffed)

He is flying (magically) and has 1000 postage stamps sticky tacked all over his body.

I use an item of dispel magic with the bare minimum caster level possible to create it and have buffed my caster level.

I fail a whole lot of dispel checks with that dispel magic from an item.

Make 1000 reflex saves. I hope you've got evasion.

I could also have a dominated person do this and use an item of dimension door with a readied action of mine to dispel if I don't even want you to have a chance.

Let's assume I used a rod of maximize greater and heightened those runes to 9th level. They each deal 36 damage. Now lets assume your various defenses take out 3/4 of that damage. But in turn you activate my trap card "+1". This causes you to take 1 more point of damage no matter what. So you take 36*250 damage +1 more damage or 9000 + 1 damage.

[Kelb_Panthera]

A STR cleric that uses all their nifty little buffs PLUS their power from the strength domain?

Yeah youll be able to reach the DC to rip a dude in half no problem

You realize that the descriptions in the post you quoted represent -two- characters and approaches, right?

[Killer Angel]

Guys, let's try to be helpful.

1 - remember that, while not specified in the OP or in the tread's title, this is Pathfinder.

2 -
My post has nothing to do with a perfect or complete build, I just want to know how one could kill a tough character and with what. Then I can look up magic items that would counter some things and try to work out how to gear out/modify my character.

3 - given that magical offences cover a wide range of possibilities and the barbarian cannot be protected against all of 'em, let's give suggestions for some generic "must have" protection (example: ring of evasion, and so on)

4 - the OP should remember that there are other "mundane" classes that can have nasty surprises for a melee barbarian: a dedicated archer or a cavalier with a flying mount, are a couple of examples already cited in this thread: how the barbarian deals with them (or with monsters with similar abilities)?

[Vaz]

A STR cleric that uses all their nifty little buffs PLUS their power from the strength domain?

Yeah youll be able to reach the DC to rip a dude in half no problem

Don' t forget a scroll of Giant Size and Body Outside Body. Grow to colossal, and then make 4 clones of your colossal buffed self.

[Olfgar]

You realize that the descriptions in the post you quoted represent -two- characters and approaches, right?I do yes, and i just didnt feel like taking out the first halfof his post so I just focused on the second one, being the cleric to rip someone in half.


Don' t forget a scroll of Giant Size and Body Outside Body. Grow to colossal, and then make 4 clones of your colossal buffed self. Dear god, yes.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I do yes, and i just didnt feel like taking out the first halfof his post so I just focused on the second one, being the cleric to rip someone in half.

Ah. Thought you were being sarcastic and implying that its absurd to claim that you could get DC's ridiculously high for the save inducing effects -and- get combat ability high enough to outfight a barbarian. Just adding to either side of the section you're focusing on could've made your intent clearer.

[Raimun]

He can save with a +21 (+12 From Superstition +6 from Base Saves +3 From 16 Wisdom) to his Will Saves [not including Saving Throw Boosting items]

Edit: I'm using his Stats + my Feat / Rage Power Line-up. I think I was able to outline the most "Durable" Barbarian that can still do its job.

Oh, there are ways around this. That's the real trick. :smallwink:

[gooddragon1]

Guys, let's try to be helpful.

1 - remember that, while not specified in the OP or in the tread's title, this is Pathfinder.

2 -

3 - given that magical offences cover a wide range of possibilities and the barbarian cannot be protected against all of 'em, let's give suggestions for some generic "must have" protection (example: ring of evasion, and so on)

4 - the OP should remember that there are other "mundane" classes that can have nasty surprises for a melee barbarian: a dedicated archer or a cavalier with a flying mount, are a couple of examples already cited in this thread: how the barbarian deals with them (or with monsters with similar abilities)?

Well, in that case, unless you're going pvp you should be pretty well set. I heavily advise spell resistance (preferably something that scales with HD if you could get it). Not just for my trick but for things that allow SR in addition to a save. A ring of freedom of movement is worth so much when you need it. Always have an escape mechanism (teleport is nice). Teleport helps close the distance with archers about 97% of the time. He's got flight ability as well but dealing with a charging flying dude might require denying him vision of you or something. A ring of invisibility can also work for archers and chargers as they have to get within range to see you with whatever revealing methods they have and that puts them in a place they generally don't want to be.

[AgentofHellfire]

Side note: (nearly) all spells require line of effect; summons and callings specifically require it to the spot they'll put the creature.

*checks SRD again*

Actually, I believe you're right. :smallsmile:


Doesn't matter, in the end, since once I have a Horned Devil between the barbarian and I, I don't have to worry about being hit...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Has no one mentioned Mailman yet?

Eat several thousand d6. No save, no SR. My base attack roll to hit your touch AC is 40. Mind you, there are several hundred missiles being aimed at you, therefore I will accept a 1% attrittion rate. It still won't stop you from getting turned into a greasy stain.

Oh, and it also bypasses immunities. So if you think you are immune, you simply aren't.

Alternately, HFW Clawlock. Not as powerful, but still deals several hundred d6 damage a round.

Alternately, Takahashi him. You can't do anything if you are Cowering permanently. The Dread Necro version bypasses immunity to fear by virtue of Dread Witch.

[Xerxus]

Its to bad you specified that I get to go first, and dint specify any restrictions on killing you. Sounds liek your just pissed that I though of an elaborate way to kill you.

And if we are going into wish territory, I can already cast them without using rings. And as a good wizard, I would have cast some nifty divination spells today, and found out that I would be encountering you, and prepared accordingly. Hell, If I keep you in cloud kill long enough, youll die. You can make saves to half the con damage, but the cloud will keep mopving, and I can toss out a couple more into the combat area we are in, while flying out of range of both you and my clouds. Then summon in a few things that dont breath like say, earth elementals in there.

No, you don't understand what I want you to do. That earlier idea was ridiculous, I want something contained within a single combat. Besides, I gave it some thought and my character now looks like this. Don't forget that in order to get ten more DR I have to activate Combat Expertise. And I get two more from the adamantine breastplate. Just ask if you want me to clarify anything.

This is while raging

Unnamed Hero
Half-Orc (Mystic) Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) 18
N Medium Humanoid (human, orc)
Init +5; Senses darkvision; Perception +26
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 32, touch 16, flat-footed 29 (+11 armor, +3 Dex, +5 natural, +5 deflection)
hp 320 (18d12+180)
Fort +27 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +15, Will +21 (+4 vs. enchantments); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons, +6 morale bonus vs. spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities but must resist all spells, even allies'
Defensive Abilities indomitable will; DR 18/lethal, 9/—; Resist fire 5, extreme endurance (fire)
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +3 Furious, Shock, Speed Adamantine Earth breaker +33/+33/+28/+23/+18 (2d6+20+1d6 electricity/x3) and
Armor spikes +28/+23/+18/+13 (1d6+10/x2)
Special Attacks rage (48 rounds/day)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 30, Dex 16, Con 30, Int 13, Wis 21, Cha 10
Base Atk +18; CMB +28; CMD 44 (48 vs. Disarm, 48 vs. Sunder)
Feats Combat Expertise +/-5, Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Deathless Initiate, Diehard, Disruptive, Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice), Extra Rage Power, Improved Stalwart, Power Attack -5/+10, Raging Brutality (+10), Spellbreaker, Stalwart
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +21, Climb +15, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Handle Animal +6, Intimidate +21, Perception +26, Ride +8, Stealth +0, Survival +26, Swim +15 (+19 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion)
Languages Common, Goblin, Orc
SQ fast movement +10, rage powers (clear mind [1/rage], disruptive, eater of magic [1/rage], renewed life [4 negative level[s]] [1/day], renewed vigor 4d8+10 hp [1/day], renewed vitality [9] [1/day], spell sunder, spellbreaker, superstition +6, witch hunter [+5])
Combat Gear Helm of teleportation, Potion of bear's endurance, Potion of bull's strength, Potion of cat's grace, Potion of enlarge person, Potion of fly, Potion of good hope, Potion of heroism, Potion of nondetection, Potion of remove curse, Potion of remove disease, Potion of restoration, lesser, Potion of water breathing; Other Gear +5 Armor spikes Adamantine Breastplate, +3 Furious, Shock, Speed Adamantine Earth breaker, Amulet of natural armor +5, Belt of physical might (Str & Con +6), Cloak of resistance +5, Gloves of dueling, Headband of inspired wisdom +6, Ring of evasion, Ring of protection +5, Winged boots (3/day)
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Clear Mind (1/rage) (Ex) Reroll a failed Will save while raging.

Combat Expertise +/-5 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.

Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.

Damage Reduction (18/lethal) You have Damage Reduction against non-lethal damage

Damage Reduction (9/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.

Damage Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.

Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).

Deathless Initiate Not staggered while using Diehard; gain +2 on melee damage rolls

Diehard You are stable and can choose how to act when at negative Hp.

Disruptive Gain the Disruptive feat while raging.

Disruptive +4 DC to cast defensively for those you threaten.

Eater of Magic (1/rage) (Su) Once per rage, when a barbarian fails a saving throw against a spell, supernatural ability, or spell-like ability, she can reroll the saving throw against the effect (this is not an action). If she succeeds at the second saving throw, she is not affe

Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice) +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.

Extreme Endurance (Fire) (Ex) At 3rd level, the invulnerable rager is inured to either hot or cold climate effects (choose one) as if using endure elements. In addition, the barbarian gains 1 point of fire or cold resistance for every three levels beyond 3rd. This ability

Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.

Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.

Improved Stalwart Double DR gained from Stalwart

Indomitable Will (Ex) While in rage, a barbarian of 14th level or higher gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, including the morale bonus on Will saves she also receives during her rage.

Power Attack -5/+10 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.

Rage (48 rounds/day) (Ex) +6 Str, +6 Con, +3 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.

Raging Brutality (+10) Add Constitution bonus on damage rolls

Renewed Life (4 negative level(s)) (1/day) (Ex) When raging, ignore the effect of 4 temporary negative levels.

Renewed Vigor 4d8+10 Hp (1/day) (Ex) As a standard action while raging, you can heal yourself the listed amount.

Renewed Vitality (9) (1/day) (Ex) When raging, ignore the effect of 9 point(s) of ability penalty or damage.

Ring of evasion No damage if you succeed on a Reflex save for half damage.

Spell Sunder (Su) Once per rage, the barbarian can attempt to sunder an ongoing spell effect by succeeding at a combat maneuver check. For any effect other than one on a creature, the barbarian must make her combat
maneuver check against a CMD of 15 plus the effect's

Spellbreaker Gain the Spellbreaker feat while raging.

Spellbreaker If an enemy you threaten fails to cast defensively, they provoke an AoO from you.

Stalwart Forgo dodge AC bonus for equivalent DR

Superstition +6 (Ex) While raging, gain bonus to save vs magic, but must resist all spells, even allies'.

Winged boots (3/day) Fly as spell for up to 5 minutes. +4 to fly checks.

Witch Hunter (+5) (Ex) Bonus to damage spellcasters while raging.

This is while raging

[Pickford]

I'm level 18, you're level 18 of whatever. We meet in an open field, I'm already raging. Gear and so on is pretty basic for a high-lvl character. You get the first turn. Hit me.

Level 18 Sorceror. I cast Time Stop 9th level spell for kicks I'm rolling the numbers: 1d4+1 result: 3 + 1, 4 rounds. Just something to note, damage is not possible 'to you' while time stop is ongoing, though persistant effects continue to persist when time returns to normal, so if it lasts more than 4 rounds and I cast it on round 1, it would do effect you on round 5.

But not to fear, I intend you little harm. I have two interesting methods. (so says I).

Round 1:
I move 30' to you and cast disintigrate...on the ground below you carving out a hole 10' deep.
Rounds 2-3: Repeat for a hole that is 30' deep.
Round 4: Cast Time Stop result: 3 (total)
Round 1-2: Increase hole depth to 50'
Round 3: Time Stop (final 9th lvl spell): (4 round total)
1-4: Increase depth to 90' (total disintigrates cast: 7, so now I'm out of 6th level spells. (This is just my particular Sorceror as built, your mileage may vary)

Time returns to normal. You fall 90' ~instantly (Characters, as far as I can glean from the RAW fall at 25'/sec the first round (see stalling in flight) and increase to 50'/sec for any remaining rounds. As you're <150' in the air, you essentially only have time for a free/immediate/swift action.

By the way, the hole is wide enough you can't reach the lip.

At this point you're at my mercy to unleash each and every spell my Sorceror can cast.

Anyway, now that you're at the bottom of a giant pit, I can proceed to drop things on you. Actually if I hold back one 6th level spell I could create a wall of iron shaped into the hole which would then drop the 80' to provide crushing damage. Presumably killing you outright since it starts 10d6 damage when falling on someone (from a standing position). As falling characters takes 1d6 per 10' (iirc) you would have taken 8d6, offhand without looking anything up, I'd rule the falling would accelerate the 10d6 to 80d6. So 88d6 damage. You are, on average, extremely dead.

Now, if you're lucky, I start with the Prismatic Eye's and Prismatic Rays. I say lucky because you might just go insane (and not comprehend what else happens to you) or be teleported out of this hole and into another plane of existence. Granted, that end-location is random, so you could just as likely end up in a plane where you just die instantly, or the level of hell that consists only of carnivorous hammocks, as elysium.

If you're not lucky I Draconic Polymorph into, a dragon, and then cave in the hole on you. You suffocate horribly.

Method #2.
Time stop: (rolled a 4 for 5 rounds)
Round 1: Cast Prismatic Wall Behind you.
Round 2: Cast Prismatic Wall to your Right.
Round 3: Cast Prismatic Wall to your Left.
Round 4: Cast Prismatic Wall In front of you.
Round 5: Cast Prismatic Wall above you. (last 8th lvl spell)

You're now completely encased for 220 minutes (CL is higher courtesy of several of my abilities). If you try to pass any of the wall you suffer the following:
1: 20 Fire, Reflex half
2: 40 Acid, Reflex half
3: 80 Electricity, Reflex half
4: Poison, Kills. Fortitude partial for 1d6 Con damage instead.
5: Turned to Stone (Fort negates)
6: Will save or insane (as insanity spell)
7: Energy field destroys all objects and effects. Creatures sent to another plane of existence. Will negates.

So let's say you make 3 reflex saves in a row (DC 26: 10 + Cha(+7) + Spell level (8) + SpellFocus/GreaterSpellFocus Abjuration (+2 total) + Ring of Arcane Might (+1). I'm pretty certain I added that correctly), 2 save or die Fort saves and 2 save or be useless will saves....you still step out of the box completely naked.

I suppose I could combine both methods, placing a, slightly shallower, hole under you 'and' surrounding it/you with prismatic walls. That way if you have some kind of free action flight, you're still trapped, at least for a round.

If you're looking for a good way to counter method 2, get a rod of cancellation.

Edit: Also, I'm an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil so...good luck.

[Xerxus]

Level 18 Sorceror. I cast Time Stop 9th level spell for kicks I'm rolling the numbers: 1d4+1 result: 3 + 1, 4 rounds. Just something to note, damage is not possible 'to you' while time stop is ongoing, though persistant effects continue to persist when time returns to normal, so if it lasts more than 4 rounds and I cast it on round 1, it would do effect you on round 5.

But not to fear, I intend you little harm. I have two interesting methods. (so says I).

Round 1:
I move 30' to you and cast disintigrate...on the ground below you carving out a hole 10' deep.
Rounds 2-3: Repeat for a hole that is 30' deep.
Round 4: Cast Time Stop result: 3 (total)
Round 1-2: Increase hole depth to 50'
Round 3: Time Stop (final 9th lvl spell): (4 round total)
1-4: Increase depth to 90' (total disintigrates cast: 7, so now I'm out of 6th level spells. (This is just my particular Sorceror as built, your mileage may vary)

Time returns to normal. You fall 90' ~instantly (Characters, as far as I can glean from the RAW fall at 25'/sec the first round (see stalling in flight) and increase to 50'/sec for any remaining rounds. As you're <150' in the air, you essentially only have time for a free/immediate/swift action.

By the way, the hole is wide enough you can't reach the lip.

At this point you're at my mercy to unleash each and every spell my Sorceror can cast.

Anyway, now that you're at the bottom of a giant pit, I can proceed to drop things on you. Actually if I hold back one 6th level spell I could create a wall of iron shaped into the hole which would then drop the 80' to provide crushing damage. Presumably killing you outright since it starts 10d6 damage when falling on someone (from a standing position). As falling characters takes 1d6 per 10' (iirc) you would have taken 8d6, offhand without looking anything up, I'd rule the falling would accelerate the 10d6 to 80d6. So 88d6 damage. You are, on average, extremely dead.

Now, if you're lucky, I start with the Prismatic Eye's and Prismatic Rays. I say lucky because you might just go insane (and not comprehend what else happens to you) or be teleported out of this hole and into another plane of existence. Granted, that end-location is random, so you could just as likely end up in a plane where you just die instantly, or the level of hell that consists only of carnivorous hammocks, as elysium.

If you're not lucky I Draconic Polymorph into, a dragon, and then cave in the hole on you. You suffocate horribly.

Method #2.
Time stop: (rolled a 4 for 5 rounds)
Round 1: Cast Prismatic Wall Behind you.
Round 2: Cast Prismatic Wall to your Right.
Round 3: Cast Prismatic Wall to your Left.
Round 4: Cast Prismatic Wall In front of you.
Round 5: Cast Prismatic Wall above you. (last 8th lvl spell)

You're now completely encased for 220 minutes (CL is higher courtesy of several of my abilities). If you try to pass any of the wall you suffer the following:
1: 20 Fire, Reflex half
2: 40 Acid, Reflex half
3: 80 Electricity, Reflex half
4: Poison, Kills. Fortitude partial for 1d6 Con damage instead.
5: Turned to Stone (Fort negates)
6: Will save or insane (as insanity spell)
7: Energy field destroys all objects and effects. Creatures sent to another plane of existence. Will negates.

So let's say you make 3 reflex saves in a row (DC 26: 10 + Cha(+7) + Spell level (8) + SpellFocus/GreaterSpellFocus Abjuration (+2 total) + Ring of Arcane Might (+1). I'm pretty certain I added that correctly), 2 save or die Fort saves and 2 save or be useless will saves....you still step out of the box completely naked.

I suppose I could combine both methods, placing a, slightly shallower, hole under you 'and' surrounding it/you with prismatic walls. That way if you have some kind of free action flight, you're still trapped, at least for a round.

If you're looking for a good way to counter method 2, get a rod of cancellation.

Edit: Also, I'm an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil so...good luck.

Well the first method is pretty simple to counter. 9d6 damage is really no problem, as it would be on average 31.5 damage of which I would ignore 21. But on my turn, which would directly follow the end of the time stop, I use my helm of teleportation to get right next to you, correcting any displacement with a simple move action. As for the prismatic wall, I would sunder it as per the spell sunder maneuver and move straight past it and get to you.

I think you might be playing 3.5. No initiates in pathfinder. And I doubt I would fail to get through the wall by walking anyway. My saves are way too high to fail the save or dies - especially with the reroll - and reflex fails lead so little damage that it's hardly a problem.

[Shining Wrath]

Well, atm it is something like this:

Half-orc Barbarian (Invulnerable rager) 18

Lots of hit points

1st: Endurance, Diehard
2nd: Superstition
3rd: Power Attack
4th: Renewed Vigor
5th: Stalwart
6th: Ground Breaker
7th: Deathless Initiate
8th: Renewed Life
9th: Combat Expertise
10th: Renewed Vitality
11th: Improved Stalwart
12th: Regenerative Vigor
13th: Combat Reflexes
14th: Come and Get Me
15th: Extra Rage Power: Eater of Magic
16th: Disruptive
17th: Extra Rage Power: Spellbreaker
18th: Dont know...

I'm currently at level 4 but might get to 18 in this campaign. Which is why I want someone to try and kill me in a way I have not foreseen.

I'm going to try an elf Ranger, maybe 5th level or so. With boots of flight, a +1 bow, and lots of arrows.

I'm going to stay at a distance where you can't hit me with a thrown weapon. With the boots of flight I'm faster than you are. And then pew ... pew ... pew. It may take 200 arrows, but sooner or later you are going down.

[Malak'ai]

I have no build or advice to offer other than do what Lord_Gareth and others have said to do... Go and edit the first post and add [PF] to the title so you don't keep getting people wasting time (their's and yours) by posting 3.5 builds to try and counter your character.

[Pickford]

Well the first method is pretty simple to counter. 9d6 damage is really no problem, as it would be on average 31.5 damage of which I would ignore 21. But on my turn, which would directly follow the end of the time stop, I use my helm of teleportation to get right next to you, correcting any displacement with a simple move action. As for the prismatic wall, I would sunder it as per the spell sunder maneuver and move straight past it and get to you.

I think you might be playing 3.5. No initiates in pathfinder. And I doubt I would fail to get through the wall by walking anyway. My saves are way too high to fail the save or dies - especially with the reroll - and reflex fails lead so little damage that it's hardly a problem.

Oh, if that's the case my character doesn't exist ;)

Substitute one casting for one for dimensional anchor on you. Now you can't teleport and are trapped at the bottom of the pit. Again, I fill in the hole and you suffocate before the anchor wears off.

[Xerxus]

I'm going to try an elf Ranger, maybe 5th level or so. With boots of flight, a +1 bow, and lots of arrows.

I'm going to stay at a distance where you can't hit me with a thrown weapon. With the boots of flight I'm faster than you are. And then pew ... pew ... pew. It may take 200 arrows, but sooner or later you are going down.

I doubt that you would even be able to harm me. Maybe with crits. Lets say that you have str 20 and a mighty+5 +1 composite longbow. 1d8+6 damage would give a max damage without crits of 14, which I would ignore completely. Sure, once in a while a crit at 42 damage would deal 21 damage. But anyway, I have some winged boots of my own as described above, so if you want to harm me then I'd catch up to you.

[Xerxus]

Oh, if that's the case my character doesn't exist ;)

Substitute one casting for one for dimensional anchor on you. Now you can't teleport and are trapped at the bottom of the pit. Again, I fill in the hole and you suffocate before the anchor wears off.

I could quaff my pot of water breathing. And/or sunder the dimensional anchor. Or just stop midfall with my winged boots and fly up.

[Suddo]

So I'm just going to counter post a barbarian I would run if I were going to min/max (my current one is different for fluff reasons).


(Mystic, Toothy) Half-Orc (Invulnerable 13) Barbarain 14/ (Dual Curse) Oracle 1/ Fighter 3

Feats: Keen Scent, Dodge, Power Attack, Leadership, Raging Vitality, Extra Rage Power x2, Lunge, Eldritich Claws, Fighter: Combat Reflexes, Toughness.
Rage Powers: Lesser Beast Totem, Lesser Elemental rage, Beast Totem, Superstistion, Greater Beast Totem, Flesh Wound, Elemental Rage, Eater of Magic, Come and Get Me

My items that I would require would be: 530k gp

Belt of physical perfection +6 (144,000 gp, 386k)
Wings of Fly (54,000 gp, 332k)
Ring of protection +5 (50,000 gp, 282k)
Ring of evasion (25,000 gp, 257k)
+1 Light Fortifaction Mithral Breastplate (~9k, 248k)
+3 Keen Falchion (~33k, 215k)
Wand of Divine Power (21,000, 194k)
5 Amber Spindle Ioun Stones (50,000 gp, 144k)
Clear Spindle Ioun Stone (4,000gp, 140k)
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone (5,000 gp, 135k)
Iridescent Spindle Ioun Stone (18,000gp, 117k)
Helm of Teleportation (73,500gp, 43.5k)

A bunch of Potions of Enlarge Person


Basically I buff with a potion of Enlarge Person and then Wand of Divine Power (haste and bonuses). I also suggest getting Keen Scent so you can fight invisible people. Also I went with Beast Totem in the this build which gives me pounce and some nature armor (+3 by this point I believe) which I don't know if you can fight against.

I'm going to try and stat this up but I'm busy at the moment. You should get the idea. Oh and my spells are Shield of Faith and something else 1st level.
STR: 36(16+2Race+4Levels+6Enhancement+6Morale+2Size)
DEX: 22(16+6 Enhancement-2Size)
CON: 25(15+4Morale+6 Enhancement)
INT: 12
WIS: 15
CHA: 8

Here's a link to a more formal sheet. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=507431)
My attack routine which I can do on a charge is: (-5 Power Attack, 17 BAB, 13 Str Mod, +2 Luck from Divine Favor +3Enhancement). If I can do a swift action before a charge they deal 2d6 acid.
+29 Falchion (15-20/x2): 2d6+ 39(15PA+2Luck+19STR+3Enhancement) + 1d6 Acid (Divien Favor)
+29 Falchion (15-20/x2): 2d6+ 39 + 1d6 Acid
+24 Bite (x2): 1d6 + 22(10PA+2Luck+13STR) + 1d6 Acid
+24 Falchion (15-20/x2): 2d6+ 39 + 1d6 Acid
+19 Falchion (15-20/x2): 2d6+ 39 + 1d6 Acid
+14 Falchion (15-20/x2): 2d6+ 39 + 1d6 Acid

I have Come and Get Me on. These result in the Highest attack and I can do 6 AoO each turn (Combat Reflexes) so you will be trading each attack you do.

I rage cycle every turn. Allowing me to Flesh Wound once a round. This allows me to roll a Fort save (+24) vs Damage you deal in order to half the amount of damage and then the other half is dealt as non-lethal damage. The lethal half will have DR7 applied the non-lethal part will have DR14 applied. Assuming you hit about as hard as me you deal about I have to crit but its something to note.
I also have the Misfortune Revelation in Oracle so the first Crit you do will be rerolled.

[The Glyphstone]

I could quaff my pot of water breathing. And/or sunder the dimensional anchor. Or just stop midfall with my winged boots and fly up.

...how are you sundering a Dimensional Anchor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dimensional-anchor)? You don't have the Spell Sunder rage power (or its Witch Hunter prerequisite) listed. Even if you did, you have to roll against your own CMD+15 to full-on dispel the spell, and you only get 1 attempt per rage.

[Menteith]

I've tossed up the Alchemist build I was discussing earlier, if you'd like to offer a response to it. I think I forgot to post HP - I built it assuming you'd be capable of one shotting me if you landed a hit, but it shouldn't be that hard to figure out. He also has something like 200k WBL remaining, which I might use to alter the build after your response.

[Xerxus]

...how are you sundering a Dimensional Anchor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dimensional-anchor)? You don't have the Spell Sunder rage power (or its Witch Hunter prerequisite) listed. Even if you did, you have to roll against your own CMD+15 to full-on dispel the spell, and you only get 1 attempt per rage.

I think it's in there. If we ruled it as sundering a spell effect on a creature (which it is), it would be strange, since I wouldn't exactly want to defend myself from my own sunder. The other kind of spell sunder would be preferrable imo, that is 15 + caster level. But I don't know, if anyone knows a good ruling then please post it. Also, once you are immune to fatigue from raging (lvl 17) you can rage cycle once per round so that every ability that is once per rage would be once per round.

[Pickford]

I could quaff my pot of water breathing. And/or sunder the dimensional anchor. Or just stop midfall with my winged boots and fly up.

Water breathing doesn't let you breath dirt. I'm not drowning you so it would have no effect.

I suppose it could just be modified to surround you with walls of iron.

Yeah, you could fly but you'd have to be able to lift the iron. Or one could cover you with several walls of stone during time stop, restricting your movement to just actions requiring no movement, layer that with an anti-magic field and you suffocate before the field wears off.

Assuming 2 walls even if you had the room to move) it would be a DC 56 to break and anti-magic field would last 220 minutes....so yeah, you would die with basically no hope of escape in that scenario. Time-stop, 1-2 wall of stone, 3 antimagic field. for the win, no magic, no ability of non magic to escape.

[Xerxus]

I've tossed up the Alchemist build I was discussing earlier, if you'd like to offer a response to it. I think I forgot to post HP - I built it assuming you'd be capable of one shotting me if you landed a hit, but it shouldn't be that hard to figure out. He also has something like 200k WBL remaining, which I might use to alter the build after your response.

Well, confused without a save is kind of a bummer. I don't know if DR applies to your bombs or not. Still, it's a 50/50 that I would be able to run up and hit you (if I understand your turn correctly). But nothing can stop that confusion so there's no point in trying. Unless the bomb is supposed to be read as "This also "casts" confusion on the opponent with the alchemist level as caster level.". In which case my will save would be high enough to negate it.

[The Glyphstone]

Water breathing doesn't let you breath dirt. I'm not drowning you so it would have no effect.

I suppose it could just be modified to surround you with walls of iron.

Yeah, you could fly but you'd have to be able to lift the iron. Or one could cover you with several walls of stone during time stop, restricting your movement to just actions requiring no movement, layer that with an anti-magic field and you suffocate before the field wears off.

Assuming 2 walls even if you had the room to move) it would be a DC 56 to break and anti-magic field would last 220 minutes....so yeah, you would die with basically no hope of escape in that scenario. Time-stop, 1-2 wall of stone, 3 antimagic field. for the win, no magic, no ability of non magic to escape.

"Layer with an antimagic field'? Are you an Arcane Archer, to get around the fact that AMF is a Personal-Range Emanation?

[Pickford]

"Layer with an antimagic field'? Are you an Arcane Archer, to get around the fact that AMF is a Personal-Range Emanation?

All he said was we were in a field, he didn't list a distance, and even if he did: Time Stop, Teleport to him, Put the walls of stone around his body and sit on them with the anti-magic field up. He can't escape (because he can't move), I didn't violate the restrictions on not touching/harming him during time stop and the field is big enough to go through a couple feet of stone rendering him magicless until his air (of which has has basically none) has run out.

Edit: He will have permanent brain damage in just under 6 minutes at which point he'll also be in a coma, so I really wouldn't care if he had magic at that point anyway.

[The Glyphstone]

All he said was we were in a field, he didn't list a distance, and even if he did: Time Stop, Teleport to him, Put the walls of stone around his body and sit on them with the anti-magic field up. He can't escape (because he can't move), I didn't violate the restrictions on not touching/harming him during time stop and the field is big enough to go through a couple feet of stone rendering him magicless until his air (of which has has basically none) has run out.

Edit: He will have permanent brain damage in just under 6 minutes at which point he'll also be in a coma, so I really wouldn't care if he had magic at that point anyway.

AMF is an Emanation, which means it cannot affect targets with Total Cover from you. Wall of Stone, or any solid barrier, will block Line of Effect and give him Total Cover.

[Xerxus]

Water breathing doesn't let you breath dirt. I'm not drowning you so it would have no effect.

I suppose it could just be modified to surround you with walls of iron.

Yeah, you could fly but you'd have to be able to lift the iron. Or one could cover you with several walls of stone during time stop, restricting your movement to just actions requiring no movement, layer that with an anti-magic field and you suffocate before the field wears off.

Assuming 2 walls even if you had the room to move) it would be a DC 56 to break and anti-magic field would last 220 minutes....so yeah, you would die with basically no hope of escape in that scenario. Time-stop, 1-2 wall of stone, 3 antimagic field. for the win, no magic, no ability of non magic to escape.

Antimagic fields are centered on you, specifically. I should also get the alloted reflex save against being encased in your wall of stone, which would be +21 in this case. If still I should fail and you then cover me in the antimagic field then I'll simply bash my way out, since you can't create the wall of stone in my space and completely mold me into the stone as per the spell description. If not, then I'll teleport out.

This is all assuming that I'm standing on rock terrain to begin with, but it's an interesting method of killing someone.

As for the iron wall, I don't think the spell description allows it to be created in mid air.

[Pickford]

Antimagic fields are centered on you, specifically. I should also get the alloted reflex save against being encased in your wall of stone, which would be +21 in this case. If still I should fail and you then cover me in the antimagic field then I'll simply bash my way out, since you can't create the wall of stone in my space and completely mold me into the stone as per the spell description. If not, then I'll teleport out.

This is all assuming that I'm standing on rock terrain to begin with, but it's an interesting method of killing someone.

As for the iron wall, I don't think the spell description allows it to be created in mid air.

You wouldn't get a reflex save because I wouldn't be targeting you. I'm targeting the area 'around' you. Point of fact, Time Stop renders you untargetable by my attacks/spells which is why I'm doing things to your environment, which I can alter.

It's not midair, it grows up from the ground around you and comes back down into the ground on the other side firmly cementing it. I can stand near you and layer either the anti-magic field or a dimensional lock which would trap the area.

Didn't see the part about not being able to fit in a creature's space though, so some modification might be required, perhaps just keep layering stone over that.

[Pickford]

Possibile fun things during Time Stop:

Create the illusion that I am still standing there along with a wall. You charge and run into a wall, wiley-e-coyote style.

Time Stop and summon a bunch of allips to drain your wisdom to 0 in one round putting you into a permanent nightmare. (No save!)

The tougher you become, the more valid Tarrasque killing techniques become.

[gooddragon1]

So is it supposed to pvp or is it just supposed to be tough?

Because 1000 maximized (through a rod) heightened to 9th level explosive runes with an int of 32 is a DC 30 reflex save against a 15 means you fail your save on anything less than a 15. Using various methods this could be as much as 35 (possibly more but w/e) which means you fail the save on anything that isn't a 20.

You have no spell resistance and your ring of evasion isn't improved evasion.

Your 320 hp are not going to be anywhere near enough. 100 explosive runes is still 3600 damage. 10 explosive runes would be 360.

Hell, if we're going impromptu:

Timestop
Delayed blast fireball maximized with a rod 1 (120 damage)
Delayed blast fireball quickened with a rod 1 (60 damage)
Delayed blast fireball maximized with a rod 2 (120 damage)
Delayed blast fireball quickened with a rod 2 (60 damage)
Delayed blast fireball maximized with a rod 3 (60 damage)
Delayed blast fireball quickened with a rod 3 (60 damage)
Delay time ends right after timestop and a big boom occurs.

540 damage against your 300 hp (even after resistances it's 480 damage). The reflex saves are going to need to be 20s if I buff them correctly.

[The Glyphstone]

You wouldn't get a reflex save because I wouldn't be targeting you. I'm targeting the area 'around' you. Point of fact, Time Stop renders you untargetable by my attacks/spells which is why I'm doing things to your environment, which I can alter.

It's not midair, it grows up from the ground around you and comes back down into the ground on the other side firmly cementing it. I can stand near you and layer either the anti-magic field or a dimensional lock which would trap the area.

Didn't see the part about not being able to fit in a creature's space though, so some modification might be required, perhaps just keep layering stone over that.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wall-of-stone

He gets a free Reflex save if the wall is positioned to entrap him. No exception mentioned for the Wall being created inside a Time Stop, unless you go to quibble with the DM about if other creatures count as 'mobile' during a Time Stop.

Xerxus, you're definitely going to need to drop two of your Rage powers to get Witch Hunter and Spell Sunder, so you can do things like Sunder Dimensional Locks (and Cloudkills, and Forcecages and Antimagic Fields...Spell Sunder is incredibly silly, now that I look at it. It's like Iron Heart Surge: Punch In The Face Edition).

[Lord_Gareth]

Look, the simplest way to do any of this is to Time Stop, cast some summons, cast Time Stop on the last round, keep summoning, and repeat until you run out of summons, time stops, or both.

The barbarian rings out a challenge, the wizard blurs slightly, and suddenly there are demons everywhere and the wizard has gone back to his vacation home in Arborea to bang his celestial girlfriend.

[Xerxus]

You wouldn't get a reflex save because I wouldn't be targeting you. I'm targeting the area 'around' you. Point of fact, Time Stop renders you untargetable by my attacks/spells which is why I'm doing things to your environment, which I can alter.

It's not midair, it grows up from the ground around you and comes back down into the ground on the other side firmly cementing it. I can stand near you and layer either the anti-magic field or a dimensional lock which would trap the area.

Didn't see the part about not being able to fit in a creature's space though, so some modification might be required, perhaps just keep layering stone over that.

The reflex save doesn't matter. Now that I think about it, standing there with an antimagic field would destroy the walls. The wall of iron comment was referring to the perfectly formed wall falling on me at the bottom of the hole. A dimensional lock can be sundered. Allips require saves in pathfinder:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/allip.html

Illusions are easily disbelieved with a will save of +27 and two rerolls against "will save spells" a turn.

As for explosive runes, I hardly think that I would be able to read many more than the first one before it blew up, at which point it wouldn't be meta to stop reading. Besides, the object which you put them on would be blown up as well.

As for reflex saves, its +21 with superstition and one reroll allowed, which if I succeed at gives me your CL in temporary hit points. Show me how you'd get whatever DC you claim.

Also, my hitpoints are effectively 350 with Deathless Initiate.

[Xerxus]

Look, the simplest way to do any of this is to Time Stop, cast some summons, cast Time Stop on the last round, keep summoning, and repeat until you run out of summons, time stops, or both.

The barbarian rings out a challenge, the wizard blurs slightly, and suddenly there are demons everywhere and the wizard has gone back to his vacation home in Arborea to bang his celestial girlfriend.

I would rule that time stop has to end before it can be reset. And I would simply teleport away on my turn since there is no reason for me to fight summoned monsters.

End result is nothing happens.

[Xerxus]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wall-of-stone

He gets a free Reflex save if the wall is positioned to entrap him. No exception mentioned for the Wall being created inside a Time Stop, unless you go to quibble with the DM about if other creatures count as 'mobile' during a Time Stop.

Xerxus, you're definitely going to need to drop two of your Rage powers to get Witch Hunter and Spell Sunder, so you can do things like Sunder Dimensional Locks (and Cloudkills, and Forcecages and Antimagic Fields...Spell Sunder is incredibly silly, now that I look at it. It's like Iron Heart Surge: Punch In The Face Edition).

I have Spell Sunder, dont I? In my version on Hero Lab I do.

[The Glyphstone]

I have Spell Sunder, dont I? In my version on Hero Lab I do.

The last posted version in this thread didn't list it.

[Xerxus]

The last posted version in this thread didn't list it.

I put my latest build in the original post, it's complete with gear and all.

[gooddragon1]

The reflex save doesn't matter. Now that I think about it, standing there with an antimagic field would destroy the walls. The wall of iron comment was referring to the perfectly formed wall falling on me at the bottom of the hole. A dimensional lock can be sundered. Allips require saves in pathfinder:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/allip.html

Illusions are easily disbelieved with a will save of +27 and two rerolls a turn.

As for explosive runes, I hardly think that I would be able to read many more than the first one before it blew up, at which point it wouldn't be meta to stop reading. Besides, the object which you put them on would be blown up as well.

As for reflex saves, its +21 with superstition and one reroll allowed, which if I succeed at get your CL in temporary hit points. Show me how you'd get whatever DC you claim.

It's called failing a dispel magic check.

9th level spell (+9) Heightened
34 intelligence (+12) (+6 item, +4 book of inherentness, +4 from 1 increase per 4 levels, base of 18 +2 racial)
base 10 (+10)
Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus (+2)

DC 33 (archmage doesn't exist :X)


Another creature can remove them with a successful dispel magic or erase spell, but attempting to dispel or erase the explosive runes and failing to do so triggers the explosion.

No no, the big one, big one. (http://www.infinitelooper.com/?v=r0XiuLj-pHA#/14;21) -Peregrine Took

Big what? Big boom.

[Carth]

This character (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14615689&postcount=10) stands a pretty good chance of winning with one shot at level 16, as he can target your reflex save with geyser (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/geyser.html). From what I can tell you'd get two chances at making the DC 43 reflex save initially (needing to roll two natural 20s to pass), if you don't the spell lasts as long as I concentrate, in which case barring an extremely lucky run of will saves over the next 5 rounds while you're dazed, the daze duration just resets every time you take damage. In which case you die, because I see no method of resisting the force damage. But even if you succeed the first time by rolling dual natural 20s on one of your attempts, I see no ranged attacks. So my familiar's move action would just be to go 100' feet away, and I'd try again next round if the first geyser failed, and you'd only get one chance to roll dual 20s this time. On every subsequent round my familiar doesn't need its standard action (first round it activates a wand of arcane concordance), giving it another 100' move, allowing you to be kited very easily until a geyser succeeds.

For what it's worth, this character is going to be used for a real game in April, I made it for that purpose, and only stumbled upon this thread after. I'm curious how it stacks up. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: in event that you failed your initial saves, my character will have nothing to do but hold an action to fire another geyser at you, in the event that you did have a good run of will saves. However, in examining your will save, I believe that you need to roll 16 or higher on both d20s every round for 5 rounds to do this. The odds of doing that are basically negligible. I could also just blast you conventionally while you're dazed, but where's the fun in that? The spell lasts for another 15 rounds after I stop concentrating though, so that's at least 15 rounds of blasting, up to a total of 20 rounds of being dazed if you fail your will save on the final round of the geyser.

[Elderand]

Not sure if the rules allow it or not but here is my idea

Ready an action to cast gate as soon as the barbarian start moving toward the caster, say if he charges put the gate in front of him. Stop concentrating as soon as the barbarian is through the gate.

End result, the barbarian just got transported to one of any number of deadly planes.

[Xerxus]

It's called failing a dispel magic check.

9th level spell (+9) Heightened
34 intelligence (+12) (+6 item, +4 book of inherentness, +4 from 1 increase per 4 levels, base of 18 +2 racial)
base 10 (+10)
Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus (+2)

DC 33 (archmage doesn't exist :X)



No no, the big one, big one. (http://www.infinitelooper.com/?v=r0XiuLj-pHA#/14;21) -Peregrine Took

Big what? Big boom.

Well then, what's the delivery mechanism?

[The Viscount]

My knowledge of PF is rather limited. What is the status on using 3.5 PrCs? If they are accepted, Apostle of Peace would counter rather well, as weapons break on his skin, and his touch ends rage. If this isn't legal, sorry for wasting your time.

[mregecko]

Is there any reason a Reach, Persistant Irresistable Dance isn't going to get you? Use metamagic Rods to get spell above 9th level if you don't have the metamagic reducers... Even if you make the save and shake it off, I'll just hit you again with it next round and you've used all your 1/day rage powers? Or I could quicken a second one the same round with a rod.

Other option:

18th level wizard using CL boosting items/feats and metamagic rods to cast Polar Ray (Maximized, Quickened, Intensified, Spell Perfectioned, etc).

First Round: 30*6+30d6+4 Dex drain + 1d4 Dex drain
Second Round: 30*6+30d6+4 Dex drain + 1d4 Dex drain

No save, yes SR (I don't know if you have SR, but we can get 2x Penetration for +8 [Spell Perfection] in addition to CL boosting stuff), trivially easy touch attack from a long distance (400+ feet).

Just throwing out ideas.

[Lord_Gareth]

I would rule that time stop has to end before it can be reset. And I would simply teleport away on my turn since there is no reason for me to fight summoned monsters.

End result is nothing happens.

In case you weren't aware, most demons and devils also teleport, and they have orders to kill you for at least 18 rounds (more if I'm bothering to Extend things). How do you stay away?

[Suddo]

Look, the simplest way to do any of this is to Time Stop, cast some summons, cast Time Stop on the last round, keep summoning, and repeat until you run out of summons, time stops, or both.

The barbarian rings out a challenge, the wizard blurs slightly, and suddenly there are demons everywhere and the wizard has gone back to his vacation home in Arborea to bang his celestial girlfriend.

This pretty much does work. You'd have to use WBL to try and beat it by having like dispell or counter magic.
You're spell slots are: 9,9,8,8,8,8,7,7,5 (Sorc with 31 Cha(16+2Race+5Tomes+6Enhancement+4Levels)

Turns: Actions (Turns with X is the roll for timestop)
1: Time Stop, Swift Summon Monster 3
1.X-4: Summon Monster 8, Swift Summon Monster 3
1.X-3: Summon Monster 8, Swift Summon Monster 3
1.X-2: Summon Monster 8, Swift Summon Monster 3
1.X-1: Summon Monster 8, Swift Summon Monster 3
1.X: Time Stop, Swift Summon Monster 3
Repeat to 5 Time Stops. This allows for 5d4 (7) Max Summons and 5d4 + 5 (12) Swift Summons. The lower level spells can be used to do other things too like restricting movement. And since the Barbarian can't remove him self for the duration he's better off fighting at which point the Sorc Blasts him with all his other spells (Reflex and Will preferred).

[Lord_Gareth]

This pretty much does work. You'd have to use WBL to try and beat it by having like dispell or counter magic.
You're spell slots are: 9,9,8,8,8,8,7,7,5 (Sorc with 31 Cha(16+2Race+5Tomes+6Enhancement+4Levels)

Turns: Actions (Turns with X is the roll for timestop)
1: Time Stop, Swift Summon Monster 3
1.X-4: Summon Monster 8, Swift Summon Monster 3
1.X-3: Summon Monster 8, Swift Summon Monster 3
1.X-2: Summon Monster 8, Swift Summon Monster 3
1.X-1: Summon Monster 8, Swift Summon Monster 3
1.X: Time Stop, Swift Summon Monster 3
Repeat to 5 Time Stops. This allows for 5d4 (7) Max Summons and 5d4 + 5 (12) Swift Summons. The lower level spells can be used to do other things too like restricting movement. And since the Barbarian can't remove him self for the duration he's better off fighting at which point the Sorc Blasts him with all his other spells (Reflex and Will preferred).

Oh, and this gets even better - since summons act on your turn (I.E when the nested time stops are done) the first thing that happens is every Nalfeshnee you summoned hits the barbarian with its greater dispel magic. The second thing that happens is the biggest dog pile of SLAs ever witnessed.

[Xerxus]

In case you weren't aware, most demons and devils also teleport, and they have orders to kill you for at least 18 rounds (more if I'm bothering to Extend things). How do you stay away?

By teleporting somewhere far away, where they don't know where I am? Scrying on me to find out where I am would allow me a +32 will save to deny you the opportunity, since there is a save against that with a +5 modifier if you are on another plane.

[gooddragon1]

Well then, what's the delivery mechanism?

A simulacrum of a person with a cape of the mountebank or some other means of dimension door (maybe a simulacrum of a creature with dimension door). 1000 postage stamps with explosive runes on them stuck to it's body (maybe glue if I feel like it... it doesn't care).

A buddy of mine with Caster level of 5 through leadership and a dispel magic spell ready.

3 castings of invisibility outside of 120 feet range of true seeing.

A lawn chair with me in it. (I can make the lawn chair invisible to but w/e)

A readied action to dispel magic on a certain area (yours) once the buddy isn't holding hands with the simulacrum anymore (means it teleported).

Fail a whole lot of dispel checks with a difference of 13 caster levels between me and him.

You don't get initiative at all. This all happens on a round you had no reason to expect anything happening. All you get is maybe 900 reflex saves (I'm assuming he dispels 100 of them successfully and also assuming he can't voluntarily fail dispel checks). Your ring of evasion helps but the DC is 33. You're going to need over 800 18 or higher results on a d20.

[Suddo]

By teleporting somewhere far away, where they don't know where I am? Scrying on me to find out where I am would allow me a +32 will save to deny you the opportunity, since there is a save against that with a +5 modifier if you are on another plane.

So what the Sorcerer does the same. Its a tie at best. You also have to realize that these demons dispel you multiple times and then I anchor you (just in case).

Oh and if I have a familiar it can deliver touch attacks.

[Lord_Gareth]

By teleporting somewhere far away, where they don't know where I am? Scrying on me to find out where I am would allow me a +32 will save to deny you the opportunity, since there is a save against that with a +5 modifier if you are on another plane.

See above as well, with the dog-piling of Dispels from the Nalfeshnees plus the various other SLAs such as Unholy Blight that are coming your way.

[Xerxus]

Oh, and this gets even better - since summons act on your turn (I.E when the nested time stops are done) the first thing that happens is every Nalfeshnee you summoned hits the barbarian with its greater dispel magic. The second thing that happens is the biggest dog pile of SLAs ever witnessed.

Zero Nalfeshnees summoned as far as I can see.

[Lord_Gareth]

Zero Nalfeshnees summoned as far as I can see.

Ah, you're right - we'd need SMonster 9 for that. We could scroll it, I suppose, but I think I'll just sit on my various other fiends and just watch it happen from far away. However, I would like to make this clear - scrolls of Summon Monster IX are available and can easily replace the castings of Summon Monster 8.

[Xerxus]

Ah, you're right - we'd need SMonster 9 for that. We could scroll it, I suppose, but I think I'll just sit on my various other fiends and just watch it happen from far away. However, I would like to make this clear - scrolls of Summon Monster IX are available and can easily replace the castings of Summon Monster 8.

It would also require the ruling that your turn is not over once the time stop ends. Would be awfully overpowered if it weren't, allowing you to fire off a quickened targeted spell as well after setting up your summons. Also, this all assumes that I can't simply sunder the dispels on my helm of tele on my turn and teleport away.

[Xerxus]

A simulacrum of a person with a cape of the mountebank or some other means of dimension door (maybe a simulacrum of a creature with dimension door). 1000 postage stamps with explosive runes on them stuck to it's body (maybe glue if I feel like it... it doesn't care).

A buddy of mine with Caster level of 5 through leadership and a dispel magic spell ready.

3 castings of invisibility outside of 120 feet range of true seeing.

A lawn chair with me in it. (I can make the lawn chair invisible to but w/e)

A readied action to dispel magic on a certain area (yours) once the buddy isn't holding hands with the simulacrum anymore (means it teleported).

Fail a whole lot of dispel checks with a difference of 13 caster levels between me and him.

You don't get initiative at all. This all happens on a round you had no reason to expect anything happening. All you get is maybe 900 reflex saves (I'm assuming he dispels 100 of them successfully and also assuming he can't voluntarily fail dispel checks). Your ring of evasion helps but the DC is 33. You're going to need over 800 18 or higher results on a d20.

Alright sure, if I ever encounter a madman who somehow fitted 1000 explosive runes on something I'll happily die if I don't win initiative.

[gooddragon1]

Alright sure, if I ever encounter a madman who somehow fitted 1000 explosive runes on something I'll happily die if I don't win initiative.

No, you don't understand, it's a surprise round. You don't get initiative.

Madman = lich. Who else would be more likely to have nothing better to do with their time and be completely insane.

[Lord_Gareth]

It would also require the ruling that your turn is not over once the time stop ends. Would be awfully overpowered if it weren't, allowing you to fire off a quickened targeted spell as well after setting up your summons. Also, this all assumes that I can't simply sunder the dispels on my helm of tele on my turn and teleport away.

First, dispels aren't an effect that is continuous; their duration is "Instant" and as such they cannot be sundered or counter-dispelled.

Second, of course your turn isn't over when the time stop ends. Your turn is only over when you say it's over or you run out of spendable actions. If you summon something on your Time Stop, it gets to act when your time stop is over - just like if you're still present, you can spend your Move action (which is assuming you didn't somehow quicken your time stop and have an entire turn ahead of you, which can be a thing).

And this isn't even getting into metamagic reducer traits in PF that can end with a spell being lower level than it started.

[Carth]

I'd start investing more in initiative. Even if you don't grant my character the ability to go first, unless point buy for the game my character was designed for is incredibly stingy, it'll have a dex mod of at least 5 and therefore an initiative of +24, meaning if I rolled a 1 and you rolled a 20, I'd still go first.

Edit: point buy would need to go below 15 before I'd consider not buying a 12 in dex, for a total of 20 after the racial bonus and enhancement bonus. With 25 point buy my dex mod would be 7. If this matters at all.

[Flickerdart]

It would also require the ruling that your turn is not over once the time stop ends. Would be awfully overpowered if it weren't, allowing you to fire off a quickened targeted spell as well after setting up your summons. Also, this all assumes that I can't simply sunder the dispels on my helm of tele on my turn and teleport away.
Why would your turn be over? Time Stop takes a standard action to cast, so you still have a move and swift remaining.

[Suddo]

Zero Nalfeshnees summoned as far as I can see.
You are right but you are going to have to make a lot of saves

1: Time Stop
1.X-4: Summon Monster VIII
1.X-3: Summon Monster VIII, Demons who can try and summon
1.X-2: Summon Monster VIII, Demons who can try and summon
1.X-1: Summon Monster VIII, Demons who can try and summon
1.X: Dimensional Anchor, Demons who can try and summon.
1.2: Sorc Quicken Dispels your helm. Demons Full Attack you.

This should work well enough. Afterward the Sorc is able to do anything fun he wants. What was your will again?

[Xerxus]

Good people, let me just adjust my build a little bit in order to solve this and any future issue that involves casting about 10 level 9 spells in one round. I remove the shock quality from my weapon in order to afford a ring of spell storing with a single teleport inside which I hide in my *******. Whenever I feel like it I pull it out, put it on and simply teleport away. No one knows it's there, I hid it there once several years ago.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Intimidate + Imperious Command + Fearful armor enchantment.

Make a HD check (NOT a saving throw) DC 85 or be cowering.

This could be done with a commoner for maximum hilarity.

[Flickerdart]

Good people, let me just adjust my build a little bit in order to solve this and any future issue that involves casting about 10 level 9 spells in one round. I remove the shock quality from my weapon in order to afford a ring of spell storing with a single teleport inside which I hide in my *******. Whenever I feel like it I pull it out, put it on and simply teleport away. No one knows it's there, I hid it there once several years ago.
It's a full round action to pull out a hidden item, a move to put it on, and a standard to activate. Nice try, though.

[Xerxus]

You are right but you are going to have to make a lot of saves

1: Time Stop
1.X-4: Summon Monster VIII
1.X-3: Summon Monster VIII, Demons who can try and summon
1.X-2: Summon Monster VIII, Demons who can try and summon
1.X-1: Summon Monster VIII, Demons who can try and summon
1.X: Dimensional Anchor, Demons who can try and summon.
1.2: Sorc Quicken Dispels your helm. Demons Full Attack you.

This should work well enough. Afterward the Sorc is able to do anything fun he wants. What was your will again?

Summons can't summon. +27 with two rerolls per round against spells and supernaturals, +21 with one reroll against other things (same reroll as above). Besides, Hezrou demons won't be able to put out any hurt. Also, you can't cast that dimensional anchor on me since it is targeted.

[Xerxus]

It's a full round action to pull out a hidden item, a move to put it on, and a standard to activate. Nice try, though.

Where does it say that it's a full round action?

[Carth]

Just to confirm, your reflex against spells is only +21 right? And how are you getting 2 rerolls every round? The only reroll abilities I see function 1/day only.

[Xerxus]

Just to confirm, your reflex against spells is only +21 right? And how are you getting 2 rerolls every round? The only reroll abilities I see function 1/day only.

One reroll per rage for eater of magic, can rage cycle once per round since I am immune to fatigue.

2 rerolls are for will saves. Clear mind.

[Suddo]

Where does it say that it's a full round action?

They get to act the turn they are summoned normally this means they act on the following turn. If I were to quicken cast a summon spell though they would get a full turn. This same principle applies to summoning in a time stop. I take a standard action (in real time) then the demons are there they get a full turn.

[Flickerdart]

Doesn't that make it super easy to ready an action against the barbarian Raging and blow him up with all his defenses down?

[Xerxus]

They get to act the turn they are summoned normally this means they act on the following turn. If I were to quicken cast a summon spell though they would get a full turn. This same principle applies to summoning in a time stop. I take a standard action (in real time) then the demons are there they get a full turn.

That was not a reply to you.

[Xerxus]

Doesn't that make it super easy to ready an action against the barbarian Raging and blow him up with all his defenses down?

If I see you readying an action then I won't have to do it, since I probably didn't have to reroll because you only cast a quickened something which if it wasn't dimension door means that I am up in your face bashing you.

[Flickerdart]

Where does it say that it's a full round action?
Ah, my apologies, it was changed in Pathfinder to a standard action (Sleight of Hand skill is what you use to conceal objects on your body).


If I see you readying an action then I won't have to do it, since I probably didn't have to reroll because you only cast a quickened something which if it wasn't dimension door means that I am up in your face bashing you.
"If", "probably", "if"...

[Xerxus]

Ah, my apologies, it was changed in Pathfinder to a standard action (Sleight of Hand skill is what you use to conceal objects on your body).


"If", "probably", "if"...

It's a move action to retreive a stored item. And by probably I mean 1 in 20. And you are the one calling if here, "if the barbarian recycles the rage then ill cast something".

[Suddo]

That was not a reply to you.

Sorry bout that.

Also I'm trying to find things that you can't Evade out of Ki Shout sounds like an idea 9d6 of sonic damage (Its fort for half and it deals about 18d8). DR won't be applied since its energy (I just learned this from the SRD). So that's ~36 damage a turn. This is done during the time you are fighting demons. Oh and quicken Magic Missile 5d4+5.

[Karoht]

Mind if I present something? It won't kill your Rager, but it might waste his time for a while as I prepare other things.

Project Image + Meld into Stone (from a Scroll, if it matters)

My illusion is casting at you, I'm safe inside a block of stone. I'm not even certain if there is a type of vision that can reveal what stone block I am in, provided sufficently sized blocks are plentiful.

How would your Rager go about dealing with that, provided you even knew it was an illusion?

PS-The Illusion, with it's casting capability, would likely toy around for a while, not actually trying to kill the barbarian. More or less a testing of capabilities until such time that the caster and barbarian actually face off.

PPS-While survival is cool and all, I'm curious to see how well the barb can actually solve the puzzle solo. He's got the tools, for sure, lets see what happens.

[Carth]

One reroll per rage for eater of magic, can rage cycle once per round since I am immune to fatigue.

2 rerolls are for will saves. Clear mind.

I see, so these will only apply to the initial reflex save for my build, because once you're dazed, you can't take actions. Until you prove otherwise, it requires a roll of two natural twenties to pass the initial reflex save, the odds of which are 1/200 on two attempts (clear mind doesn't apply to reflex saves). You still get to use clear mind from the rage you're granting yourself the ability to start in, which means your first will save has a 1/8 chance of success (2 attempts at rolling 16 or higher on both d20s), and subsequent attempts have a 1/16 chance (1 attempt at rolling 16 or higher on both d20s). Taken together, that means you have a 1/524,288 chance in passing the will save 5 rounds in a row to not reset the daze duration for taking damage.

[Xerxus]

Sorry bout that.

Also I'm trying to find things that you can't Evade out of Ki Shout sounds like an idea 9d6 of sonic damage (Its fort for half and it deals about 18d8). DR won't be applied since its energy (I just learned this from the SRD). So that's ~36 damage a turn. This is done during the time you are fighting demons. Oh and quicken Magic Missile.

Yeah, but I'm not fighting any summons if I can help it, I'm fighting you.

[Xerxus]

I see, so these will only apply to the initial reflex save for my build, because once you're dazed, you can't take actions. Until you prove otherwise, it requires a roll of two natural twenties to pass the initial reflex save, the odds of which are 1/200 on two attempts (clear mind doesn't apply to reflex saves). You still get to use clear mind from the rage you're granting yourself the ability to start in, which means your first will save has a 1/8 chance of success (2 attempts at rolling 16 or higher on both d20s), and subsequent attempts have a 1/16 chance (1 attempt at rolling 16 or higher on both d20s). Taken together, that means you have a 1/524,288 chance in passing the will save 5 rounds in a row to not reset the daze duration for taking damage.

I am happily killed by something which cheeses out as much DC and metamagic as possible because no one would think that it would be fun to bring something like that into our game. Wizards with 35 DC and rods of quicken are fine because they are pretty basic and a typical enemy in a campaign.

[Xerxus]

Mind if I present something? It won't kill your Rager, but it might waste his time for a while as I prepare other things.

Project Image + Meld into Stone (from a Scroll, if it matters)

My illusion is casting at you, I'm safe inside a block of stone. I'm not even certain if there is a type of vision that can reveal what stone block I am in, provided sufficently sized blocks are plentiful.

How would your Rager go about dealing with that, provided you even knew it was an illusion?

PS-The Illusion, with it's casting capability, would likely toy around for a while, not actually trying to kill the barbarian. More or less a testing of capabilities until such time that the caster and barbarian actually face off.

PPS-While survival is cool and all, I'm curious to see how well the barb can actually solve the puzzle solo. He's got the tools, for sure, lets see what happens.

I'd run up to the illusion and sunder it as per the spell sunder rage power. Then it's time to bash some rocks.

[Flickerdart]

It's a move action to retreive a stored item. And by probably I mean 1 in 20. And you are the one calling if here, "if the barbarian recycles the rage then ill cast something".
A stored item, yes. A hidden item, such as what you're trying to do, has different rules. Even if it were only a move action to pull it out, though, you'd need another to don it, and then a third to take off one of your other rings to make it work, before you can even use it. Even if you're not using another ring, that's two moves just to prepare the thing. Not a great plan.

Also, 1 in 20? Don't make me laugh.

[Carth]

I am happily killed by something which cheeses out as much DC and metamagic as possible because no one would think that it would be fun to bring something like that into our game. Wizards with 35 DC and rods of quicken are fine because they are pretty basic and a typical enemy in a campaign.

Well, ok, what's a reasonable DC? Drop persist from it if you like, it still destroys you very reliably, even without spell perfection adding daze for free, and using an 8th level spell to cast vanilla dazing geyser. Using daze as the only metamagic feat applied, removing spell perfection and arcane concordance to drop the DC down to 38, and you only still need hit a DC 38 reflex save, and once you do you're dazed for a minimum of 5 rounds, potentially up to lots more depending on how lucky your will save rolls are. Regardless, I don't really see much validity to your complaint, your build uses the same amount of optimization as mine, mine just starts on a stronger chassis. All we've done here is prove (again) that casters are stronger than non-casters at similar optimization levels.

You're also unable to pursue effectively, so you can be kited easily. A familiar being used as a mount, or an actual mount, can take a move action at the start of each turn to put distance between you and its master, and ready an action to move again if you get too close. There's basically no chance the sorcerer will run out of level 8 and 9 spell slots for casting dazing geyser before you fail a reflex save.

If you take nothing else away from this though, keep in mind dazing spell applied to anything that targets your reflex save ruins you, even if you want to completely forget about the build I posted.

[Elderand]

So is my Idea of readying a gate to shunt the barbarian to a deadly plane possible ?

[Valdis]

I would be interested in seeing what Mage’s Disjunction would do to your character.

You would have to make a Will save for EVERY magical item in your possession, you will fail some...if you run across a caster who has their spell DC boosted through the roof, there's nothing you can do about it, unfortunately.

Granted Mage's Disjunction will not kill you... but it will leave you totally naked.


Originally Posted by Xerxus
Alright sure, if I ever encounter a madman who somehow fitted 1000 explosive runes on something I'll happily die if I don't win initiative.


No, you don't understand, it's a surprise round. You don't get initiative.
Madman = lich. Who else would be more likely to have nothing better to do with their time and be completely insane.

Just a comment about this conversation.... When has anyone EVER caught a Lich by surprise or off their guard? I don't think you'll win initiative against a Lich, IMO.

[The Glyphstone]

Well, ok, what's a reasonable DC? Drop persist from it if you like, it still destroys you very reliably, even without spell perfection adding daze for free, and using an 8th level spell to cast vanilla dazing geyser. Using daze as the only metamagic feat applied, removing spell perfection and arcane concordance to drop the DC down to 38, and you only still need hit a DC 38 reflex save, and once you do you're dazed for a minimum of 5 rounds, potentially up to lots more depending on how lucky your will save rolls are. Regardless, I don't really see much validity to your complaint, your build uses the same amount of optimization as mine, mine just starts on a stronger chassis. All we've done here is prove (again) that casters are stronger than non-casters at similar optimization levels.

You're also unable to pursue effectively, so you can be kited easily. A familiar being used as a mount, or an actual mount, can take a move action at the start of each turn to put distance between you and its master, and ready an action to move again if you get too close. There's basically no chance the sorcerer will run out of level 8 and 9 spell slots for casting dazing geyser before you fail a reflex save.

If you take nothing else away from this though, keep in mind dazing spell applied to anything that targets your reflex save ruins you, even if you want to completely forget about the build I posted.

It's worth pointing out that even once you land the Daze effect and get the barbarian dazed for 5 rounds, you need a way to actually kill him. Geyser specifically says characters hit by it land outside the geyser burst, so they don't just catapult up and down until they die. He's not going to die to the 1d6-5 fire damage/turn from the residual radius.

[Karoht]

I'd run up to the illusion and sunder it as per the spell sunder rage power. Then it's time to bash some rocks.
Cute. How are you detecting the Illusion other than interacting with it, and how are you detecting which stone to hit? How do you even know to hit a stone at all? Do you have spellcraft to tell you what spells are at play?

Project Image makes the caster invisible as well. If you know I'm using Project Image, how do you know I'm not just hanging out nearby, invisible?

[Carth]

It's worth pointing out that even once you land the Daze effect and get the barbarian dazed for 5 rounds, you need a way to actually kill him. Geyser specifically says characters hit by it land outside the geyser burst, so they don't just catapult up and down until they die. He's not going to die to the 1d6-5 fire damage/turn from the residual radius.

Right, but every time they take damage they need to make a new will save or be dazed for 5 rounds (this is not additive, it's just resetting the duration, effectively), and even at the lower DC his odds of doing that for 5 rounds in a row are very poor. Even assuming they make every DC and are only dazed the minimum 5 rounds though, that's still a long time. Further, geyser can simply be recast to target his weakest save again.

I haven't picked spells for the character yet, given that the game is in April, but with a touch AC of 16 and no SR, death shouldn't be hard to accomplish working with 5 rounds of daze. A very easy solution is to just cast dazing acid fog after dazing geyser is in place. He's now back to needing to make 2 will saves every round and taking a significant amount of passive damage. One save is at DC 38 and imposes 5 rounds of daze, the other is at DC 37 (due to elemental focus not applying), and imposes 6 rounds of daze, though these durations don't stack. The odds of getting out of daze under these circumstances are negligible. To speed the process along you could shoot acid arrows at him or something, you've got plenty of time to put several of them in him to build up more passive damage than could be reasonably overcome. His lack of touch AC and SR make his lack of acid resistance surprising. Acid fog also conveniently has the same effects as solid fog, further making it difficult to get out.

[Worguron]

No response to becoming a pin-cushion like I described on Page 3? Base initiative for the ranger I described would be +17 without taking Improved Initiative or anything, so it can be assumed he'd go first. Since you're hypothetical barbarian is apparently N, we can do away with the idea of using the alignment based arrows and instead make them Brilliant Energy for giggles. At that point, I'd only miss on a fumble and be doing an average of 279 damage a round. If you did decide to sunder the Dimensional Anchor effect that each arrow would hit you with, that would take your standard action, and you wouldn't be able to teleport until the next round... And by then you'd be hit with plenty more arrows and probably dead.

Also, Flickerdart is right about the ring with teleport in it. Hiding it up your **** would definitely fall under the Sleight of Hand hidden item description (I'd say you took 20 on it), and that would require a standard action to retrieve. You'd then need to equip it and activate it. All of that would take up more than one turn's worth of actions.

[zlefin]

interesting thread; I see no need to kill you though unless you want to fight it out. As per the standard rules of vs threads, retreat is defeat; so I don't really care all that much if you teleport out.
Your build is certainly solid; but as it's a heavy anti-caster build, a build that's designed for a fighter to beat another fighter should beat it handily.

As for casters; maximized energy drain via rods followed by enervates should drop your levels pretty low pretty fast. That just needs to be combined with some defenses/meat shield summons to keep you off for a bit. Your touch ac seems fairly low, so rays should work fine.

edit: or reach enervates at long after getting some distance.

[Flickerdart]

Also, Flickerdart is right about the ring with teleport in it. Hiding it up your **** would definitely fall under the Sleight of Hand hidden item description (I'd say you took 20 on it), and that would require a standard action to retrieve. You'd then need to equip it and activate it. All of that would take up more than one turn's worth of actions.
Not to mention the damage that comes from tryng to jam a ring up your **** twenty times. :smalltongue:

[Pickford]

The reflex save doesn't matter. Now that I think about it, standing there with an antimagic field would destroy the walls. The wall of iron comment was referring to the perfectly formed wall falling on me at the bottom of the hole. A dimensional lock can be sundered. Allips require saves in pathfinder:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/allip.html

Illusions are easily disbelieved with a will save of +27 and two rerolls against "will save spells" a turn.

As for explosive runes, I hardly think that I would be able to read many more than the first one before it blew up, at which point it wouldn't be meta to stop reading. Besides, the object which you put them on would be blown up as well.

As for reflex saves, its +21 with superstition and one reroll allowed, which if I succeed at gives me your CL in temporary hit points. Show me how you'd get whatever DC you claim.

Also, my hitpoints are effectively 350 with Deathless Initiate.

Wall of Stone and Wall of Iron are Instantaneous effects. That means they are 100% nonmagical after they've formed, so the anti-magic field has 0 effect. You only get the reflex save if I'm actually tageting you, and in this case I'm not, I'm literally wrapping the area around you in rock instead. Functional result is basically the same, but it averts the messy issue of a save. (esp. since in a time stop you can't be targeted)

For you to disbelieve the illusion you'd:
A) Have to interact with it (too late if it's a wall)
B) Have a reason to disbelieve it. As, from your point of view, nothing had changed you would have no reason to disbelieve what you were seeing and thus get no save chance.

For the allips thing...good, that felt cheap to me when I heard about it.

For other offensive possibilities (depending on the Wizard):
Bigby's Crushing Hand - grapples you (no save, SR but if a wizard can't overcome that they really should throw in the towel) at Caster level + Cha/Int/Wis modifier (Sor/Wiz/Clr) + 12 for hand's 35 strength, + 4 for being large and deals 2d6 +12 lethal damage on each successful grapple check. (total grapple bonus for me would be 18 + 7 + 12 + 4 = +41)

I'm not sure it's even realistically possible for someone to get the +23 grapple required to just have a chance at not losing automatically.

Improved grapple is +4...but then you'd need a strength of over 48? And that's just to 'maybe' have a chance of winning a grapple check.

So, 18 rounds of 2d6+12 would be 36d6 + 216. What was your DR? Well, 18 Bar says 4/- so let's apply that, then it's 2d6 + 8 = 36d6 + 144 (180 - 360 damage)

Of course, since the grapple check is so disgustingly high you won't be able to do anything at all for the duration and you lose your AC bonus against anyone else.

[The Random NPC]

I believe he said he has 19/- DR.

[The Glyphstone]

You know his character sheet is in the first page, right? He has DR 9/-, written right there. DR 18/- against nonlethal, which this isn't so it doesn't matter.

Pathfinder Crushing Hand has a CMB of Caster level+12 (35 Str) +1 (Large Size), so CL+13. His CMD is 47, so assuming a CL of 19 (level 18+1 Ioun Stone), you'll be grappling on a 5+ and dealing 2d6+3 per round.

His CMB to break free is +31, versus the Hand's CMD of 10+19+12+1=42. So he needs to roll a 11+ on his turn to break free of the Hand. Of course, that costs at least a standard action, so he can only Move, assuming he breaks the hold. If you can Dispel his Helm so he can't teleport away, this will have decent odds of working.


EDIT: Forgot Rage modifiers.

[Rainsinger]

I would just play a Level 18 Stonelord Paladin...

:)

[Pickford]

You know his character sheet is in the first page, right? He has DR 9/-, written right there. DR 18/- against nonlethal, which this isn't so it doesn't matter.

Pathfinder Crushing Hand has a CMB of Caster level+12 (35 Str) +1 (Large Size), so CL+13. His CMD is 47, so assuming a CL of 19 (level 18+1 Ioun Stone), you'll be grappling on a 5+ and dealing 2d6+3 per round.

His CMB to break free is +31, versus the Hand's CMD of 10+19+12+1=42. So he needs to roll a 11+ on his turn to break free of the Hand. Of course, that costs at least a standard action, so he can only Move, assuming he breaks the hold. If you can Dispel his Helm so he can't teleport away, this will have decent odds of working.


EDIT: Forgot Rage modifiers.

You mean the Hand gets a +11 on it's roll. So if the hand rolls a 1 he would have to roll at least a 13 (since ties go to the hand with the higher modifier).

Edit: But thank you for the info on his DR/grapple chance.

[Xerxus]

Not to mention the damage that comes from tryng to jam a ring up your **** twenty times. :smalltongue:

It doesn't have to be hidden, it might as well be stored in my mouth or something. If you say that I can't take a ring out of my mouth and put it on in 2 seconds I call bull****. How did you know it was there so you could target it? Also, show me whatever quickened effect you intend to pull off with either a damage that would warrant a reroll or a save DC which would require it.


I believe he said he has 19/- DR.

That is correct. The Improved Stalwart combined with Combat Expertise grants that.


I would just play a Level 18 Stonelord Paladin...

Write out your stats.


No response to becoming a pin-cushion like I described on Page 3? Base initiative for the ranger I described would be +17 without taking Improved Initiative or anything, so it can be assumed he'd go first. Since you're hypothetical barbarian is apparently N, we can do away with the idea of using the alignment based arrows and instead make them Brilliant Energy for giggles. At that point, I'd only miss on a fumble and be doing an average of 279 damage a round. If you did decide to sunder the Dimensional Anchor effect that each arrow would hit you with, that would take your standard action, and you wouldn't be able to teleport until the next round... And by then you'd be hit with plenty more arrows and probably dead.


If my DM ever sends an "anti-me" ranger after me I know I'm ****ed anyway.


Wall of Stone and Wall of Iron are Instantaneous effects. That means they are 100% nonmagical after they've formed, so the anti-magic field has 0 effect. You only get the reflex save if I'm actually tageting you, and in this case I'm not, I'm literally wrapping the area around you in rock instead. Functional result is basically the same, but it averts the messy issue of a save. (esp. since in a time stop you can't be targeted)

What you are trying to do is exactly what people get saves against according to the description. And even if I fail I'll still bash my way out no problem, since I can dish out 57 damage per hit with magic and 51 without if I want to. It's also an adamantine weapon.


For you to disbelieve the illusion you'd:
A) Have to interact with it (too late if it's a wall)

I don't see how running into a wall is a problem.


interesting thread; I see no need to kill you though unless you want to fight it out. As per the standard rules of vs threads, retreat is defeat; so I don't really care all that much if you teleport out.

The teleport out thing is ONLY if he teleports out first.


I would be interested in seeing what Mage’s Disjunction would do to your character.

You would have to make a Will save for EVERY magical item in your possession, you will fail some...if you run across a caster who has their spell DC boosted through the roof, there's nothing you can do about it, unfortunately.

Granted Mage's Disjunction will not kill you... but it will leave you totally naked.

I'd probably not fail a lot of them, especially since I have two rerolls at my disposal. And as I have said, you can boost your DC through the roof if you'd like but this is a real character - not one designed against any specific foe - and so if my DM wants to throw a venerable ifrit sorcerer at us then fine.


As for casters; maximized energy drain via rods followed by enervates should drop your levels pretty low pretty fast. That just needs to be combined with some defenses/meat shield summons to keep you off for a bit. Your touch ac seems fairly low, so rays should work fine.

Hm, this would be a problem indeed. I could ignore 4 temporary negatives and shrug off 4 more though, so I'm not sure that it would be certain loss. I mean, what would your turn order look like?


Right, but every time they take damage they need to make a new will save or be dazed for 5 rounds (this is not additive, it's just resetting the duration, effectively), and even at the lower DC his odds of doing that for 5 rounds in a row are very poor. Even assuming they make every DC and are only dazed the minimum 5 rounds though, that's still a long time. Further, geyser can simply be recast to target his weakest save again.

According to the spell description I can avoid this altogether assuming that I succeed on the first saving throw. Since evasion would be in effect. Besides, I have fire resistance 5 so the following turns would be a one in six of even triggering it. But dazing spell could be a problem, I'll admit, even if you don't try to cheese it.


Cute. How are you detecting the Illusion other than interacting with it, and how are you detecting which stone to hit? How do you even know to hit a stone at all? Do you have spellcraft to tell you what spells are at play?

Project Image makes the caster invisible as well. If you know I'm using Project Image, how do you know I'm not just hanging out nearby, invisible?

As far as I can tell, Project Image does not make you invisible. So I'd be seeing you creating a shadow version of yourself and then jumping into a stone as far as I can tell. My barbarians course of action seems reasonable.


Just a comment about this conversation.... When has anyone EVER caught a Lich by surprise or off their guard? I don't think you'll win initiative against a Lich, IMO.

The point is that if my DM ever threw 1000 explosive runes at me I'd not think it was in the spirit of the game, ie trying to kill me in ways which were not intended to happen as per the descriptions are not going to happen in my game.


So is my Idea of readying a gate to shunt the barbarian to a deadly plane possible ?

I don't know, really. Depends on the DMs ruling, at the very least I should be getting a save. But my plan is to teleport up to you if you don't stop me.



Also regarding Gareth and his horde of summons - in the latest version I can't see how I would be unable to kill a bunch of Nalfeshnees. As far as your wizard goes, I thought he was chilling in Arborea.




Anyway, here is an updated character sheet, removed the disruptive line since it seems useless. As before, this is while raging:

EDIT: Accidentally forgot the version with Heroic Defiance.

Unnamed Hero
Half-Orc (Mystic) Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) 18
N Medium Humanoid (human, orc)
Init +5; Senses darkvision; Perception +26
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 32, touch 16, flat-footed 29 (+11 armor, +3 Dex, +5 natural, +5 deflection)
hp 320 (18d12+180)
Fort +27 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +15, Will +21 (+4 vs. enchantments); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons, +6 morale bonus vs. spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities but must resist all spells, even allies'
Defensive Abilities indomitable will; DR 18/lethal, 9/—; Resist fire 5, extreme endurance (fire)
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +3 Furious, Speed Adamantine Earth breaker +33/+33/+28/+23/+18 (2d6+20/x3) and
Armor spikes +28/+23/+18/+13 (1d6+10/x2)
Special Attacks rage (48 rounds/day)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 30, Dex 16, Con 30, Int 13, Wis 21, Cha 10

Base Atk +18; CMB +28; CMD 44 (48 vs. Disarm, 48 vs. Sunder)

Feats: Combat Expertise +/-5, Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Deathless Initiate, Diehard, Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice), Heroic Defiance, Improved Stalwart, Power Attack -5/+10, Raging Brutality (+10), Stalwart

Traits: Indomitable Faith, Reactionary

Skills: Acrobatics +21, Climb +15, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Handle Animal +6, Intimidate +21, Perception +26, Ride +8, Stealth +0, Survival +26, Swim +15 (+19 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion)
Languages Common, Goblin, Orc

SQ: fast movement +10, rage powers (clear mind [1/rage], come and get me, eater of magic [1/rage], heroic defiance [1/day], renewed life [4 negative level[s]] [1/day], renewed vigor 4d8+10 hp [1/day], renewed vitality [9] [1/day], spell sunder, superstition +6, witch hunter [+5])

Combat Gear: Helm of teleportation, Potion of bear's endurance, Potion of bull's strength, Potion of cat's grace, Potion of enlarge person, Potion of fly, Potion of good hope, Potion of heroism, Potion of nondetection, Potion of remove curse, Potion of remove disease, Potion of restoration, lesser, Potion of water breathing; Other Gear +5 Armor spikes Adamantine Breastplate, +3 Furious, Speed Adamantine Earth breaker, Amulet of natural armor +5, Belt of physical might (Str & Con +6), Cloak of resistance +5, Gloves of dueling, Headband of inspired wisdom +6, Ring of evasion, Ring of protection +5, Winged boots (3/day)
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Clear Mind (1/rage) (Ex) Reroll a failed Will save while raging.

Combat Expertise +/-5 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.

Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.

Come and Get Me (Ex) Enemies get +4 to hit and damage you, but attacks provoke AoO from you.

Damage Reduction (18/lethal) You have Damage Reduction against non-lethal damage

Damage Reduction (9/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks. This is increased to 19/- if Improved Stalwart and Combat Expertise are activated.

Damage Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.

Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).

Deathless Initiate Not staggered while using Diehard; gain +2 on melee damage rolls.

Diehard You are stable and can choose how to act when at negative Hp.

Eater of Magic (1/rage) (Su) Once per rage, when a barbarian fails a saving throw against a spell, supernatural ability, or spell-like ability, she can reroll the saving throw against the effect (this is not an action). If she succeeds at the second saving throw, she is not affected and gets the effect's caster level as temporary hit points.

Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice) +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.

Extreme Endurance (Fire) (Ex) At 3rd level, the invulnerable rager is inured to either hot or cold climate effects (choose one) as if using endure elements. In addition, the barbarian gains 1 point of fire or cold resistance for every three levels beyond 3rd.

Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.

Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.

Heroic Defiance (1/day) Delay the onset of a harmful affliction or condition until the end of your next turn.

Improved Stalwart Double DR gained from Stalwart.

Indomitable Will (Ex) While in rage, a barbarian of 14th level or higher gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, including the morale bonus on Will saves she also receives during her rage.

Power Attack -5/+10 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.

Rage (48 rounds/day) (Ex) +6 Str, +6 Con, +3 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.

Raging Brutality (+10) Add Constitution bonus on damage rolls, 15 if using a two-handed weapon.

Renewed Life (4 negative level(s)) (1/day) (Ex) When raging, ignore the effect of 4 temporary negative levels.

Renewed Vigor 4d8+10 Hp (1/day) (Ex) As a standard action while raging, you can heal yourself the listed amount.

Renewed Vitality (9) (1/day) (Ex) When raging, ignore the effect of 9 point(s) of ability penalty or damage.

Ring of evasion No damage if you succeed on a Reflex save for half damage.

Spell Sunder (Su) Once per rage, the barbarian can attempt to sunder an ongoing spell effect by succeeding at a combat maneuver check. For any effect other than one on a creature, the barbarian must make her combat maneuver check against a CMD of 15 plus the effect's caster level.

Stalwart Forgo dodge AC bonus for equivalent DR.

Superstition +6 (Ex) While raging, gain bonus to save vs magic (all supernatural effects), but must resist all spells, even allies'.

Winged boots (3/day) Fly as spell for up to 5 minutes. +4 to fly checks.

Witch Hunter (+5) (Ex) Bonus to damage spellcasters while raging.

[Carth]

According to the spell description I can avoid this altogether assuming that I succeed on the first saving throw. Since evasion would be in effect. Besides, I have fire resistance 5 so the following turns would be a one in six of even triggering it. But dazing spell could be a problem, I'll admit, even if you don't try to cheese it.


The havoc of the society trait is actually the culprit of you needing to make the save every round. Any time a spell does damage, it adds 1 point of force damage. It's a trait that looks lousy on the surface, but has the niche use of getting dazing spell to pretty much always fire on a failed save.

I'd also look into adding more speed, as mentioned it's too easy to just get a mount of some kind and have the mount's actions be used to keep a safe distance from you while firing stuff. If you make the save against the first geyser, you still need to worry about a second geyser the next round, and several more after that. It's more likely that you'll fail a reflex save before a sorcerer runs out of 8th and 9th level spells. But the larger point here is that this would work for archers, and pretty much anyone else specializing in ranged attacks, who are even less likely to run out of their ammo. I'm still very new to PF, so I wouldn't really be able to offer any more builds off the cuff, but I'm sure others will take advantage of this strategy.

The other complication this introduces is that it doesn't let you charge, unless you have a way to not charge in a straight line. The mount can just use its move action to move away, then use its standard action to ready another movement if you come close to it, and that movement will likely prohibit your straight line charge from reaching it, unless the fight is going on in a tunnel or something where lateral movement isn't possible. I'm actually not sure there's a good solution to this problem, short of getting a mount yourself, otherwise there's just too many mounts with much higher speeds than an orc can achieve, and mounts pretty much have nothing else to do with their actions other than move.

[Mystic Muse]

It doesn't have to be hidden, it might as well be stored in my mouth or something. If you say that I can't take a ring out of my mouth and put it on in 2 seconds I call bull****.

I'd say if it's not in the rules, it has no place in this sort of discussion. If it's a houserule, it's something you have to mention.

[Xerxus]

The havoc of the society trait is actually the culprit of you needing to make the save every round. Any time a spell does damage, it adds 1 point of force damage. It's a trait that looks lousy on the surface, but has the niche use of getting dazing spell to pretty much always fire on a failed save.

I'd also look into adding more speed, as mentioned it's too easy to just get a mount of some kind and have the mount's actions be used to keep a safe distance from you while firing stuff. If you make the save against the first geyser, you still need to worry about a second geyser the next round, and several more after that. It's more likely that you'll fail a reflex save before a sorcerer runs out of 8th and 9th level spells. But the larger point here is that this would work for archers, and pretty much anyone else specializing in ranged attacks, who are even less likely to run out of their ammo. I'm still very new to PF, so I wouldn't really be able to offer any more builds off the cuff, but I'm sure others will take advantage of this strategy.

The other complication this introduces is that it doesn't let you charge, unless you have a way to not charge in a straight line. The mount can just use its move action to move away, then use its standard action to ready another movement if you come close to it, and that movement will likely prohibit your straight line charge from reaching it, unless the fight is going on in a tunnel or something where lateral movement isn't possible. I'm actually not sure there's a good solution to this problem, short of getting a mount yourself, otherwise there's just too many mounts with much higher speeds than an orc can achieve, and mounts pretty much have nothing else to do with their actions other than move.

I'm pretty sure that trait was not supposed to work like that. But fine, if my DM wants to put in that a lvl 18 Barbarian in a rage is dazed by 1 force damage per turn then so be it. What's to stop me from teleporting right next to you?

[Xerxus]

I'd say if it's not in the rules, it has no place in this sort of discussion. If it's a houserule, it's something you have to mention.

It's only a joke. I don't want to teleport away.

[Carth]

I'm pretty sure that trait was not supposed to work like that. But fine, if my DM wants to put in that a lvl 18 Barbarian in a rage is dazed by 1 force damage per turn then so be it. What's to stop me from teleporting right next to you?

Can you act after teleporting in PF? I don't see how that would be useful otherwise. Edit: flavorwise I also wouldn't assume that being dazed is necessarily tied to the damage. The damage restriction for dazing spell is probably only there so you can apply the feat to spells for which it makes sense. Otherwise you could do weird stuff like putting dazing spell on illusions.

[Ravenica]

not without a specific line of feats, and he doesn't qualify for them

edit: actually it looks like a strix caster could kite him pretty easy as well even without a mount, potion won't keep him in the air long enough (if at all muahaha)

[Xerxus]

Can you act after teleporting in PF? I don't see how that would be useful otherwise.

AoO if you want to move, you'd have to withdraw in order to skip it. And I'm not sure how that works with mounts.

[Carth]

AoO if you want to move, you'd have to withdraw in order to skip it. And I'm not sure how that works with mounts.

Mounts get their own actions, and always act on their rider's initiative. So the mount could do a full round withdrawal, leaving the spellcaster's actions open.

Edit: even if you want to assume the caster (or archer, rock thrower, ninja blowgun assassin, whatever) also needs to use their actions to withdraw, that doesn't really matter. They can just exhaust your teleports and we're back to square one.

[Xerxus]

Mounts get their own actions, and always act on their rider's initiative. So the mount could do a full round withdrawal, leaving the spellcaster's actions open.

Edit: even if you want to assume the caster (or archer, rock thrower, ninja blowgun assassin, whatever) also needs to use their actions to withdraw, that doesn't really matter. They can just exhaust your teleports and we're back to square one.

Not quite, now I can run to catch up to you. Winged Boots give you 60ft flying speed.

[Xerxus]

not without a specific line of feats, and he doesn't qualify for them

edit: actually it looks like a strix caster could kite him pretty easy as well even without a mount, potion won't keep him in the air long enough (if at all muahaha)

Winged boots is what I am using.

[gooddragon1]

The point is that if my DM ever threw 1000 explosive runes at me I'd not think it was in the spirit of the game, ie trying to kill me in ways which were not intended to happen as per the descriptions are not going to happen in my game.


You need to specify to people that the point of this thread is to keep your character alive against reasonable but possibly unconventional attacks. There's other ways that are equally ridiculous but that no DM will reasonably use against you. Anticipate teleportation might help in fringe cases but a DM should not be using scry and fry on you. As it is, your helm of teleportation should be more than enough to get you out of any messy business you can't face down in combat.

[Ravenica]

well as hilarious as this thread has been... I present...

School evocation [electricity]; Level sorcerer/wizard 9
Casting Time 1 swift action
Components V, S
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 round/level (D)
You may transform into lightning as a standard action and instantly travel in a straight line to a distance of up to 120 feet,
rematerializing in the new location as a free action. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Creatures in this line take 10d6 points of electrical damage and are staggered for 1 round (a successful Reflex save halves the damage and negates the staggered condition, spell resistance applies). Objects in your path are damaged as well, with combustible objects being set ablaze and metals with low melting points melted. If your path is interrupted by a barrier or otherwise deflected, you materialize short of your final destination in the nearest open space; targets in the line to that point take damage as normal. You are immune to electricity while this spell lasts.

the only spell necessary to kill this barbarian with pretty much any arcane caster of 18th level. But throw it on a Sylph Sorc with Elemental:Air bloodline for giggles.
no AoO
no Save
Swift and Move actions not used (but hey there's plenty you can do with them to speed it up
18 rounds of free 120ft movement, damage and electricity immunity
Swift action to cast

Ride the Lightning baby

edit: Winged boots still isn't enough, duration is short and a strix can full move, not just double as it's fly speed is inherent

[Xerxus]

You need to specify to people that the point of this thread is to keep your character alive against reasonable but possibly unconventional attacks. There's other ways that are equally ridiculous but that no DM will reasonably use against you. Anticipate teleportation might help in fringe cases but a DM should not be using scry and fry on you. As it is, your helm of teleportation should be more than enough to get you out of any messy business you can't face down in combat.

You are correct, going to post that in the original post.


well as hilarious as this thread has been... I present...

School evocation [electricity]; Level sorcerer/wizard 9
Casting Time 1 swift action
Components V, S
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 round/level (D)
You may transform into lightning as a standard action and instantly travel in a straight line to a distance of up to 120 feet,
rematerializing in the new location as a free action. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Creatures in this line take 10d6 points of electrical damage and are staggered for 1 round (a successful Reflex save halves the damage and negates the staggered condition, spell resistance applies). Objects in your path are damaged as well, with combustible objects being set ablaze and metals with low melting points melted. If your path is interrupted by a barrier or otherwise deflected, you materialize short of your final destination in the nearest open space; targets in the line to that point take damage as normal. You are immune to electricity while this spell lasts.

the only spell necessary to kill this barbarian with pretty much any arcane caster of 18th level. But throw it on a Sylph Sorc with Elemental:Air bloodline for giggles.
no AoO
no Save
Swift and Move actions not used (but hey there's plenty you can do with them to speed it up
18 rounds of free 120ft movement, damage and electricity immunity
Swift action to cast

edit: Winged boots still isn't enough, duration is short and a strix can full move, not just double as it's fly speed is inherent

Looks like a save which gives me evasion. And you are definitely not too far away for me to get to you. Especially if you want to use the same effect several turns in a row.

EDIT: And it looks like a measly 35 points of damage.

[Carth]

Aren't you wearing medium armor? That cuts your fly speed down to 40, which means even if you take a full round to run in a straight line you can't catch up to a mount with a speed of 100.' Does some property make it light? Regardless, even if you do get your fly speed up to 60,' you have same issue as teleports, in that you'll run out of fly time.

[Mystic Muse]

Where do you find the rules for how armor encumbers fly speed, just out of curiosity? It's relevant to a backup character I'm making, and shouldn't derail this thread too much.

Has to be Pathfinder specifically.

[Xerxus]

Aren't you wearing medium armor? That cuts your fly speed down to 40, which means even if you take a full round to run in a straight line you can't catch up to a mount with a speed of 100.' Does some property make it light? Regardless, even if you do get your fly speed up to 60,' you have same issue as teleports, in that you'll run out of fly time.

Look, this has been interesting but I'm not really interested in chasing down a venerable ifrit on an air elemental, I want him to kill me! If this was in the game then one of my party members would probably be able to cast something to let me catch up, so this isn't really the question.

But you are right, I should be wearing a mithril breastplate.

[Carth]

Where do you find the rules for how armor encumbers fly speed, just out of curiosity? It's relevant to a backup character I'm making, and shouldn't derail this thread too much.

Has to be Pathfinder specifically.

The spell fly specifically says so.


Look, this has been interesting but I'm not really interested in chasing down a venerable ifrit on an air elemental, I want him to kill me! If this was in the game then one of my party members would probably be able to cast something to let me catch up, so this isn't really the question.

But you are right, I should be wearing a mithril breastplate.

As I've alluded to, forget my ifrit. Griffon riding archers can do the exact same thing. Griffons only have an 80' fly speed, but that's enough.

[Xerxus]

The spell fly specifically says so.



As I've alluded to, forget my ifrit. Griffon riding archers can do the exact same thing. Griffons only have an 80' fly speed, but that's enough.

But can they kill me?

[Ravenica]

Looks like a save which gives me evasion. And you are definitely not too far away for me to get to you. Especially if you want to use the same effect several turns in a row.

bare minimum DC is going to be 10+10(cha, sylph 18 to start +4 from level up +6 circlet +2 for bloodline) +9 Spell level+2 (Elemental/Greater Focus) potentially another 2 from School/Greater focus and I could easily burn the 100k to pump it up another 2 casting wish for the extra 4 points of cha. Total DC 33(35 with wishes) without effort meaning you save less than half. With an existing move action left he/she can easily put the necessary distance between you away as you will still have to make the effort to approach or simply die from ranged spells (magic missile maybe? :smalltongue:) As already pointed out though your armor lowers your speed and if we are going to include party members you probably should just take Craft:Headstones now :smalltongue:

edit: HA even if your party tries to buff you, supersitious means you can't choose to fail the save (even harmless) so you'd have to drop out of rage at the end of your initiative to avoid wasting the buffs meaning you pretty much bend over and take it right then and there

[Carth]

But can they kill me?

Sure. I'm not prepared to put forward a build, as I mentioned I only had the ifrit build ready because it's for an actual game, but conceptually, because you can't actually catch them, they have no need to kill you quickly, do they? Unless you finally gave up and ran, a griffon rider shooting at you with a wand of acid arrow could kill you, in fact.

[Mystic Muse]

The spell fly specifically says so.

Ah. I meant natural fly speeds (Character is a half-dragon).

[Carth]

Ah. I meant natural fly speeds (Character is a half-dragon).

Well, the section on speed (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html) with regards to armor doesn't specify land speed, so my hunch is that it's no different than how it works with a land speed. The only instance of it talking about land speed is specifying that a dwarf's land speed doesn't go down, which could be interpreted to mean that its fly speed does.

[Ravenica]

PFS restricts nonmagical flight to anyone not hindered (light armor only and not encumbered) making mounts need high str just to carry in flight

[Mystic Muse]

PFS restricts nonmagical flight to anyone not hindered (light armor only and not encumbered) making mounts need high str just to carry in flight

Ah, alright, thank you, that helps a lot.:smallsmile:

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[Xerxus]

bare minimum DC is going to be 10+10(cha, sylph 18 to start +4 from level up +6 circlet +2 for bloodline) +9 Spell level+2 (Elemental/Greater Focus) potentially another 2 from School/Greater focus and I could easily burn the 100k to pump it up another 2 casting wish for the extra 4 points of cha. Total DC 33(35 with wishes) without effort meaning you save less than half. With an existing move action left he/she can easily put the necessary distance between you away as you will still have to make the effort to approach or simply die from ranged spells (magic missile maybe? :smalltongue:) As already pointed out though your armor lowers your speed and if we are going to include party members you probably should just take Craft:Headstones now :smalltongue:

edit: HA even if your party tries to buff you, supersitious means you can't choose to fail the save (even harmless) so you'd have to drop out of rage at the end of your initiative to avoid wasting the buffs meaning you pretty much bend over and take it right then and there


I can be buffed before combat, or I could ask one of them to ready an action to buff me between rages while I rage cycle. And while we are talking about rage cycling, I get one reroll per turn via the eater of magic ability, which means that not only do I have a one in three shot at succeeding the first time if your DC is 35, I succeed two times out of nine with a boost of 18 temporary hit points. So you succeed in dishing out damage 4 times out of 9 and heal me 2 times out of 9. Which in effect means that this spell in itself only deals about 11 damage on average per turn.

As for your move action, if you are not at least 115 ft away from me once you pull off your lightning jump, you don't deal any damage. So essentially, you can only stray about (120+movement speed)/2 away from me if you want to continue dealing damage, if you understand what I mean. If I now just added a +1 Mighty +10 composite longbow to my inventory for a mere 3k GP, I could dish out a lot of damage while you jump around. I should probably do that. And make my armour mithril as well, no point in making it adamantine.

EDIT: All comments about my party members are specifically about builds that rely on kiting me for X number of rounds because my movement speed is 40ft and not 60ft. The point is that no one in their right mind would allow themselves to be killed by a kiter after about 20-30 rounds, how can you kill me by any means from which I can't protect myself with common sense.

[Ravenica]

the movement speed from the spell is more important than the damage, it means magic missile can be used to pummel you into hamburger

lets face it you cannot defeat the most powerful spell (magic missile) :smallyuk:
of course said sylph can also hit you with searing ray (dealing lightning damage, so your fire resists useless) hit with regular dispell, hit you with cloudkill, and polar rayed into uselessness (also with the option to hit with electric damage)

Ride the Lightning gives any caster the perfect kite for your character.

edit: well there you go, polar ray will kill your character in 4-8 rounds and an 18th level sorc can kite you and cast it easily

[Killer Angel]

Not quite, now I can run to catch up to you. Winged Boots give you 60ft flying speed.

a flying mount is much faster, you'll stay behind


If my DM ever sends an "anti-me" ranger after me I know I'm ****ed anyway.

not exactly. Mind you: a potential danger is not only that dedicated archer, but also a charger with a flying mount, a flying monster with speed higher than yours, and so on.
Aganst such enemies, you'll be royally screwed, 'cause your boots of flying won't protect you against these kind of things, and your limited teleport ability can probably only save you when the war of attrition will go bad for you.

So, my suggestion for your build, is that you need something that negates these enemies' advantage: a ring of invisibility, or something similar... even if they can see inv., they need to stand relatively near to you, and this is something they don't want to.

[Carth]

If you choose not to pursue in response to kiting, the problem you run into in getting into a shooting war is that you're gambling on being able to kill the other person with archery before they can kill you with archery (or whatever other ranged weapons and spells). A dedicated archer build is probably going to be able to outdo you enough in damage per hit to overcome your HP advantage, and rocs (80' fly speed) are one of their possible animal companions for rangers, who I'm guessing make very good archers (I haven't played a ranger yet in PF, hopefully this isn't a crazy assumption :smallbiggrin: ). So being kited by a flying mounted archer is a very real possibility. An archer build that does crazy damage was already posted, I'm sure enough toned down permutations of it are possible that kiting is still viable. The solutions to this are to either become very good at ranged combat too, or increase your speed. I have jested about killing you with a wand of acid arrow, but it'd probably be good to prepare for things that can do as much damage per shot at range as you can at melee, that's probably a fair assumption for optimization.

[Xerxus]

the movement speed from the spell is more important than the damage, it means magic missile can be used to pummel you into hamburger

lets face it you cannot defeat the most powerful spell (magic missile) :smallyuk:
of course said sylph can also hit you with searing ray (dealing lightning damage, so your fire resists useless) hit with regular dispell, hit you with cloudkill, and polar rayed into uselessness (also with the option to hit with electric damage)

Ride the Lightning gives any caster the perfect kite for your character.

edit: well there you go, polar ray will kill your character in 4-8 rounds and an 18th level sorc can kite you and cast it easily


Give me your build including your spell list or I can't fight you.

While Magic Missile is annoying, it's only 17.5 damage per turn and since you are a sorcerer impossible to metamagic even with rods without giving up your move action. And if you want to use the Ride the Lightning as a kite and a weapon then you will likely be within 120 ft at the start of one of my rounds sooner or later. Try it out in a round by round play instead of throwing out your spells as if they made you invincible. Polar Ray is an issue yes, but it assumes that you can survive my arrows. 18d6 damage is still only 63 per round.

[Xerxus]

If you choose not to pursue in response to kiting, the problem you run into in getting into a shooting war is that you're gambling on being able to kill the other person with archery before they can kill you with archery (or whatever other ranged weapons and spells). A dedicated archer build is probably going to be able to outdo you enough in damage per hit to overcome your HP advantage, and rocs (80' fly speed) are one of their possible animal companions for rangers, who I'm guessing make very good archers (I haven't played a ranger yet in PF, hopefully this isn't a crazy assumption :smallbiggrin: ). So being kited by a flying mounted archer is a very real possibility. An archer build that does crazy damage was already posted, I'm sure enough toned down permutations of it are possible that kiting is still viable. The solutions to this are to either become very good at ranged combat too, or increase your speed. I have jested about killing you with a wand of acid arrow, but it'd probably be good to prepare for things that can do as much damage per shot at range as you can at melee, that's probably a fair assumption for optimization.

Yes, all true, but you would have to show me the numbers or I can't say for sure. But ranged combat is not my forte and there are still a lot of things that could probably beat me, not only certain combinations of spells (which everyone seems to have a hard-on for).

[Carth]

It's not that people are hot for spells necessarily, spells are just the easiest thing to optimize. They hit and do damage more reliably than other attack forms. Otherwise, I'll have to pass the buck on a ranger build (or some other mounted ranged combatant), though that crazy powerful archer build someone else is a good basis to start from. Just start water it down some, put it on a roc, and see how it'd do.

[Xerxus]

a flying mount is much faster, you'll stay behind



not exactly. Mind you: a potential danger is not only that dedicated archer, but also a charger with a flying mount, a flying monster with speed higher than yours, and so on.
Aganst such enemies, you'll be royally screwed, 'cause your boots of flying won't protect you against these kind of things, and your limited teleport ability can probably only save you when the war of attrition will go bad for you.

So, my suggestion for your build, is that you need something that negates these enemies' advantage: a ring of invisibility, or something similar... even if they can see inv., they need to stand relatively near to you, and this is something they don't want to.

Invisibility is a big thing, which hardly no one wants to use against me it seems. But at the same time, I don't want to use it myself because I don't want to use spells (beyond the counters to teleporting and flying mages) since that would be outside my concept. This is as stated a real character in a real game and I don't want to go outside the role of being the superstitious diehard.

I'm not sure that a charger could take me out. Depends on the circumstances, how far away it ends up after charging, how much damage it deals (could survive as much as 368 points of damage in a single hit) etc. But then again, we are in a mounted combat specialists' arena so there is only so much that can be done.

[Killer Angel]

Invisibility is a big thing, which hardly no one wants to use against me it seems. But at the same time, I don't want to use it myself because I don't want to use spells (beyond the counters to teleporting and flying mages) since that would be outside my concept. This is as stated a real character in a real game and I don't want to go outside the role of being the superstitious diehard.

I'm not sure that a charger could take me out. Depends on the circumstances, how far away it ends up after charging, how much damage it deals (could survive as much as 368 points of damage in a single hit) etc. But then again, we are in a mounted combat specialists' arena so there is only so much that can be done.

Well, I personally would play a cavalier with reach weapon and a flying mount (fly speed variable between 80' and 120', depending on the mount), ride by attack and so on. Not because of your barbarian, but because it's the way i like to build such a character in a real game.
I'm faster than you, i hit and run past with the charge, and i would plan to stay out of range of your charge movement. It wouldn't be easy, it's a tactical combat and it would take many rounds and some hits, but it can be done.

[Xerxus]

Well, I personally would play a cavalier with reach weapon and a flying mount (fly speed variable between 80' and 120', depending on the mount), ride by attack and so on. Not because of your barbarian, but because it's the way i like to build such a character.
I'm faster than you, i hit and run past with the charge, and i would plan to stay out of range of your charge movement. It wouldn't be easy, it's a tactical combat and it would take many rounds and some hits, but it can be done.

Well, I would be able to charge 120'. But from what I hear about mounted combat in pathfinder it gets weird sometimes. Wouldn't even know how to start, if I would be gimped without a longspear or something.

[Killer Angel]

Well, I would be able to charge 120'. But from what I hear about mounted combat in pathfinder it gets weird sometimes. Wouldn't even know how to start, if I would be gimped without a longspear or something.

Of course, but i would charge you with ride-by-attack, and my total charge movement would be between 160' and 240' (depending on the mount... let's assume 160'). You can count on the fact that I would probably have a lance, and Lounge as one of my feats, to always have a reach advantage (and, in your case, avoid bad surprises ala Come and Get Me).
If this hit-and-run tactic is viable or not, depends on circustances (obstacles, landscape and so on)

[Xerxus]

Or I could just be a Cleric and persist Divine Power and pound you to mush :)

Don't think you can persist Divine Power.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Don't think you can persist Divine Power.

Don't know about PF, but it's perfectly valid for 3.5. You've just got to use one of the various methods for applying the metamagic without using a higher level slot.

[Xerxus]

Timestop Gate Epic Advanced Dragon/Pit Fiend/Balor/Solar Teleport.

Hell, any Scroll of Gate will beat the Barbarian.

Don't think you can control a Balor, Solar or Pit Fiend since their HD is greater than your limit. Even if you have an orange ioun stone. And if you have Gifted adept for Gate, that's cheese.

But lets put in a Planetar. Could likely take it out in single combat, and if you choose to stick around I'll go for you anyway since there is not much that it can do against me. Besides, as per how Gate works it seems likely that any creature you could pull through would be very reluctant to fight me.

[Xerxus]

Wish?

Boom. You're dead.

I'm pretty sure it does not work like that.

[doko239]

Did not read the entire thread, but my own preferred method would be Ninja 18, with Vanishing Trick and Invisible Blade tricks, wielding a Composite Distance Longbow, with Far Shot feat and Hunter's Eye trait, while wearing Sniper's Goggles. I can hit you with Sneak Attack damage from anywhere within about 1000 feet without penalty, and you cannot see me.

Of course, If I were going to cheese this, I'd be a spellcaster and use a quickened Create Pit followed by Wall of Stone, then dismiss the pit. Smoosh.

[Vertul]

This thread at a glance appears to be a waste of time, as the goalposts keep moving every time a viable build is brought up. A conjuration specialist as noted would end this character with the hordes of summoned demons entirely through his own actions, as requested.

[The Glyphstone]

You mean the Hand gets a +11 on it's roll. So if the hand rolls a 1 he would have to roll at least a 13 (since ties go to the hand with the higher modifier).

Edit: But thank you for the info on his DR/grapple chance.

You need to read up on how Pathfinder does grapples. There are not opposed rolls anymore, it is a CMB roll versus static CMD.


This thread at a glance appears to be a waste of time, as the goalposts keep moving every time a viable build is brought up. A conjuration specialist as noted would end this character with the hordes of summoned demons entirely through his own actions, as requested.

It's been mentioned a few times (though it is, evidentally, very poorly stated) that this is sort of the point - a "stress-test" of the build by exposing flaws and then patching it. Or something, I don't know.

[Treblain]

This thread at a glance appears to be a waste of time, as the goalposts keep moving every time a viable build is brought up. A conjuration specialist as noted would end this character with the hordes of summoned demons entirely through his own actions, as requested.

I just read through the thread, and I'm pretty satisfied with it, compared to how this kind of challenge usually goes 8 pages into the thread. He's got a listed build and isn't adding new items to counter every attack. I agree with the reasoning that kiting and/or teleporting away aren't real ways to win the battle, and summoned monsters don't seem to do much but waste his time- their attacks don't do that much damage past his DR, their save DCs are really low, and their chain-summoning is mostly a waste of an action.

[Xerxus]

I just read through the thread, and I'm pretty satisfied with it, compared to how this kind of challenge usually goes 8 pages into the thread. He's got a listed build and isn't adding new items to counter every attack. I agree with the reasoning that kiting and/or teleporting away aren't real ways to win the battle, and summoned monsters don't seem to do much but waste his time- their attacks don't do that much damage past his DR, their save DCs are really low, and their chain-summoning is mostly a waste of an action.

Thanks, not a lot of support for non-casters going around!

[Pickford]

You need to read up on how Pathfinder does grapples. There are not opposed rolls anymore, it is a CMB roll versus static CMD.

It's been mentioned a few times (though it is, evidentally, very poorly stated) that this is sort of the point - a "stress-test" of the build by exposing flaws and then patching it. Or something, I don't know.

Ah, sorry, I was not familiar with that. Side note: That is a bad change from 3.5 grappling. I suppose that's useless then seeing as he can fly, though it would always interpose in between us.

Also the Barbarian, if he has not acted, doesn't get DR 19 from PF combat expertise and the stalwart feats because CE requires you to make an attack/full attack action to use it. (i.e. he hasn't used it yet)

"You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon."

So you'd be at base DR (isn't that DR 4/-??)

And yeah, I'd argue that the text of time stop
"In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen" indicates non-mobility. So as long as the stone wall is built and doesn't take effect 'after' time stop ends, the barbarian is denied a reflex save.

Different line of attack:
I suppose I could do a Ray of Dizziness (no save) you only can take move action or a standard action each turn. (no full-round), follow up with a Ray of Light (no save) to blind you for 1d4 rounds. Then I Ray of Stupidity you (no save) until your Int is 0 and you are now Comatose. Because you only get a standard or move action you never get to attack me.

Under Pathfinder rules while blind you need to pass a DC 10 Acrobatics check or fall prone anytime you move at full speed. So if you want to try countering this, you need to have skill ranks in acrobatics.

[Suddo]

Thanks, not a lot of support for non-casters going around!

My first build I posted was me min/maxing a Barbarian to fight yours and got no comment on it. Though you're DR 19 is going to really sting against him.

[Invader]

I'll build the exact same character as you, same feats, abilities, buffs, etc. and I'll win 50% of the fights.

[Xerxus]

Did not read the entire thread, but my own preferred method would be Ninja 18, with Vanishing Trick and Invisible Blade tricks, wielding a Composite Distance Longbow, with Far Shot feat and Hunter's Eye trait, while wearing Sniper's Goggles. I can hit you with Sneak Attack damage from anywhere within about 1000 feet without penalty, and you cannot see me.

Of course, If I were going to cheese this, I'd be a spellcaster and use a quickened Create Pit followed by Wall of Stone, then dismiss the pit. Smoosh.

Correct, I can't see invisible opponents. This very deliberately since see invisibility is a simple second level spell which my party members could cast on me in the real game, so every invisibility-based build would beat me as is. But a potion of invisibility would negate your advantage.

[mregecko]

Not to pick nits, buts I don't think I saw a response to my suggestions here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14616037&postcount=137).

Specifically, metamagic'd Polar Rays (from 400+ feet) or Irresistable Dances (which would minimally daze you for a round, daze-locking you while I get swift actions).

Also, you list a strategy of using your helm of teleportation to get next to someone... You wouldn't have a threatening action (just swift and/or move) after that, so I'd just cast defensively then contingent Dim Door or Teleport 500+ feet away again on my turn. I always make a habit of having my arcane casters have a contingent Teleport or Dimension Door in such cases.

Also, casting defensively is pretty trivial... DC 15+18+4=37. I'm going to have at least a CL of 25, and at least an INT/CHA of 30, so my bonus is going to be a minimum of +35 (not to mention combat casting or whatnot).

Thoughts?

[Valdis]

It doesn't have to be hidden, it might as well be stored in my mouth or something. If you say that I can't take a ring out of my mouth and put it on in 2 seconds I call bull****.

Just a personal preference... I would suggest against taking a ring out of my **** and stuffing it in my mouth. :smallsmile:

[Xerxus]

Ah, sorry, I was not familiar with that. Side note: That is a bad change from 3.5 grappling. I suppose that's useless then seeing as he can fly, though it would always interpose in between us.

Also the Barbarian, if he has not acted, doesn't get DR 19 from PF combat expertise and the stalwart feats because CE requires you to make an attack/full attack action to use it. (i.e. he hasn't used it yet)

"You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon."

So you'd be at base DR (isn't that DR 4/-??)

And yeah, I'd argue that the text of time stop
"In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen" indicates non-mobility. So as long as the stone wall is built and doesn't take effect 'after' time stop ends, the barbarian is denied a reflex save.

Different line of attack:
I suppose I could do a Ray of Dizziness (no save) you only can take move action or a standard action each turn. (no full-round), follow up with a Ray of Light (no save) to blind you for 1d4 rounds. Then I Ray of Stupidity you (no save) until your Int is 0 and you are now Comatose. Because you only get a standard or move action you never get to attack me.

Under Pathfinder rules while blind you need to pass a DC 10 Acrobatics check or fall prone anytime you move at full speed. So if you want to try countering this, you need to have skill ranks in acrobatics.

Never heard about any of those rays in pathfinder. And if there was that kind of synergy between time stop and other things then what's the point of having this discussion, you could argue that since time has only slowed down then you should be able to attack me directly.

Sure, my DR isn't up to 19 yet if you want to build on that. A total defense action would also give me the DR-boost. My base DR is 9/-.

[Xerxus]

Not to pick nits, buts I don't think I saw a response to my suggestions here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14616037&postcount=137).

Specifically, metamagic'd Polar Rays (from 400+ feet) or Irresistable Dances (which would minimally daze you for a round, daze-locking you while I get swift actions).

Also, you list a strategy of using your helm of teleportation to get next to someone... You wouldn't have a threatening action (just swift and/or move) after that, so I'd just cast defensively then contingent Dim Door or Teleport 500+ feet away again on my turn. I always make a habit of having my arcane casters have a contingent Teleport or Dimension Door in such cases.

Also, casting defensively is pretty trivial... DC 15+18+4=37. I'm going to have at least a CL of 25, and at least an INT/CHA of 30, so my bonus is going to be a minimum of +35 (not to mention combat casting or whatnot).

Thoughts?

CL of 25? How? The best legitimate CL increase I have seen was +1.

Irresistible dance is a bitch, but what swift spells do you intend to cast?

You can only use one metamagic rod for the polar ray anyway.

I would need a comprehensive spell list and spells prepared list in order to fight any of these wizards you speak of. And please, make it something which was not out to get me specifically. As well as which items you use and wear.


My first build I posted was me min/maxing a Barbarian to fight yours and got no comment on it. Though you're DR 19 is going to really sting against him.

I forgot about that one. Got too busy with the spellmania. What was the gist of the build?

[Xerxus]

I'll build the exact same character as you, same feats, abilities, buffs, etc. and I'll win 50% of the fights.

IT WILL BE GLORIOUS.

[Mystic Muse]

I would need a comprehensive spell list and spells prepared list in order to fight any of these wizards you speak of. And please, make it something which was not out to get me specifically. As well as which items you use and wear.

I think this doesn't make much sense. The point is to get defenses against things you may well encounter, correct? Unless your DM is going against the rules, you shouldn't know what's in a wizard's spellbook until after you've deathmurdered the wizard.

[Xerxus]

I think this doesn't make much sense. The point is to get defenses against things you may well encounter, correct? Unless your DM is going against the rules, you shouldn't know what's in a wizard's spellbook until after you've deathmurdered the wizard.

Yes, but at least he should know what's in it before he puts them in the combat.

EDIT: Ie, which spells prepared on every level, every spell known of course.

[The_Ditto]

1) Extended Rope Trick.
2) Climb in.
3) Cower in fear
4) wait for you rage to end
5) consider coming out
6) decide against it.
7) cower in fear.

:smallconfused:

[Xerxus]

1) Extended Rope Trick.
2) Climb in.
3) Cower in fear
4) wait for you rage to end
5) consider coming out
6) decide against it.
7) cower in fear.

:smallconfused:

Cut the rope? :smalltongue:

[mregecko]

CL of 25? How? The best legitimate CL increase I have seen was +1.

Irresistible dance is a bitch, but what swift spells do you intend to cast?

You can only use one metamagic rod for the polar ray anyway.

I would need a comprehensive spell list and spells prepared list in order to fight any of these wizards you speak of. And please, make it something which was not out to get me specifically. As well as which items you use and wear.


Pretty easy to get CL boosts up that high. Ioun Stone, Varisian Tattoo, Spell Perfection, UMD: Karma Beads in a time stop, Gifted Adept trait (that one might be a stretch). But with Spell Perfection, the Varisian Tattoo bonus will get doubled. So that's +2 +1(stone)+4(beads) = 25 on the polar rays. There are probably other methods.

And yes, only one metamagic rod on the polar ray, but Spell Perfection lets me apply a metamagic feat for free to it as well, so I can get one for free from the Rod and one from Spell Perfection.

That also isn't a build to specifically take down your character... Optimizing a powerful ray is a totally legitimate build strategy for a character of this level. My build would include energy substituting feats for different characters too.

I don't have the time to do a full 18th level build, but my point is Polar Ray + Free Metamagics has a strong chance of taking you out (either with Dex drain or HP damage) while backing up. Nothing to prevent you from teleporting away.

For the record, this could be done with Hellfire Ray too (Intensified, Maximize/Empower/Quicken with rods or Spell Perfection).

Spell Perfection is an insane feat, btw. Don't underestimate its ability to pump DC's up to insane levels. Spell Focus (+2), Greater Spell Focus (+2), Focused Spell (+4)...

How about Spell Perfection (Ball Lightning). Apply Heighten for Free to 9th level, use a Dazing Metamagic Rod... DC = 10+9(spell lvl)+10(stat)+8(spell focus + focused spell)+4(you are wearing metal, right?). DC 41 reflex save, each time a ball enters your square, or dazed for 9 rounds. Totally easy to do, not even cheesing a ton. That's one piece of equipment and like 6 feats (most of which I'd get for any arcane caster).

[Karoht]

You also ignored my reply regarding Project Image and Meld into Stone
How are you going to detect that the Project Image is an illusion (other than interaction) while it is slinging spells at you?
How are you going to deduce that Meld into Stone is the active trick going on, rather than some other getaway/invisibility ploy?
How are you going to detect which stone I am in? Meld into Stone allows me to be in any single stone that I can fit my body area into. I could be in a 5x5x5 stone, with Reduce Person possibly smaller.

I'm not interested in killing you, I'm curious how your character 'solves the puzzle' of combat here.

[Pickford]

Never heard about any of those rays in pathfinder. And if there was that kind of synergy between time stop and other things then what's the point of having this discussion, you could argue that since time has only slowed down then you should be able to attack me directly.

Sure, my DR isn't up to 19 yet if you want to build on that. A total defense action would also give me the DR-boost. My base DR is 9/-.

No I meant using the rays as oppoesd to time stop. Does Pathfinder 'only' use the 3.5 PHB spells? The rays are from the spell compendium.

Ok, assuming only PHB spells, Waves of Exhaustion will put you into a state of exhaustion automatically (move or standard, not both)

I suppose with another build as a sorc I could cast Weird 3 times, even if you save you would be stunned for 1 round and take 3d6 damage and 1d4 str damage per cast.

I think you're on the right track, if you can guarantee a will/fort/reflex save you basically aren't going to be touched by most wizards or sorcerors.

I suppose Maze would be best, no save and you'd have to make an Int check to get out before the 10 minute duration is up. I figure in 10 minutes would buy enough time to lay a teleportation circles leading to a small cell covered by a dimensional lock spell. While you are trapped, I planar binding an efreeti and with three wishes:
1) Deprive you of all items.
2) Open a temporary portal under you (so you fall through it) leading to the abyss.
3) Champagne so the Efreeti and I can celebrate your untimely demise.

Edit: Agree with Karoht, I'm just curious to see how you get out of it.

[Ravenica]

Don't even look at 3.5 spells, all of them have been changed for pathfinder (polar rays range was reduced to 100+10/level for instance)

I'll throw you a complete build shortly for my Sylphalus now that it isn't 4 am :smallbiggrin:

[Xerxus]

You also ignored my reply regarding Project Image and Meld into Stone
How are you going to detect that the Project Image is an illusion (other than interaction) while it is slinging spells at you?
How are you going to deduce that Meld into Stone is the active trick going on, rather than some other getaway/invisibility ploy?
How are you going to detect which stone I am in? Meld into Stone allows me to be in any single stone that I can fit my body area into. I could be in a 5x5x5 stone, with Reduce Person possibly smaller.

I'm not interested in killing you, I'm curious how your character 'solves the puzzle' of combat here.

I replied in my megapost.


Pretty easy to get CL boosts up that high. Ioun Stone, Varisian Tattoo, Spell Perfection, UMD: Karma Beads in a time stop, Gifted Adept trait (that one might be a stretch). But with Spell Perfection, the Varisian Tattoo bonus will get doubled. So that's +2 +1(stone)+4(beads) = 25 on the polar rays. There are probably other methods.

And yes, only one metamagic rod on the polar ray, but Spell Perfection lets me apply a metamagic feat for free to it as well, so I can get one for free from the Rod and one from Spell Perfection.

That also isn't a build to specifically take down your character... Optimizing a powerful ray is a totally legitimate build strategy for a character of this level. My build would include energy substituting feats for different characters too.

I don't have the time to do a full 18th level build, but my point is Polar Ray + Free Metamagics has a strong chance of taking you out (either with Dex drain or HP damage) while backing up. Nothing to prevent you from teleporting away.

For the record, this could be done with Hellfire Ray too (Intensified, Maximize/Empower/Quicken with rods or Spell Perfection).

Spell Perfection is an insane feat, btw. Don't underestimate its ability to pump DC's up to insane levels. Spell Focus (+2), Greater Spell Focus (+2), Focused Spell (+4)...

How about Spell Perfection (Ball Lightning). Apply Heighten for Free to 9th level, use a Dazing Metamagic Rod... DC = 10+9(spell lvl)+10(stat)+8(spell focus + focused spell)+4(you are wearing metal, right?). DC 41 reflex save, each time a ball enters your square, or dazed for 9 rounds. Totally easy to do, not even cheesing a ton. That's one piece of equipment and like 6 feats (most of which I'd get for any arcane caster).

Spell perfection only works if the total modified spell level of the cast spell is not above 9. Same issue with Hellfire Ray. And Focused Spell seems like a stretch, since the spell does not affect several targets in the way they designed that one to work (fireballs). But I could ignore the daze for one round with Heroic Defiance anyway.