How do archers deal damage? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Eldariel

2013-01-28, 11:52 AM

Useless or stacking energy damage?

There are ways. Martial Archers generally need to stack ways to gain extra attacks and add any damage they can on those attacks. Spellcasters have buffs that do the damage. Rogue-types have precision damage; spellcasters can make it more applicable.

Few Archer-shells:
Ranger 2/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Warblade 6/Eternal Blade 10
Ranger 2/Fighter 4/Barbarian 1/Whatever ->
Scout 5/Mystic Ranger 14/Cloistered Cleric 1
Cleric/PRCs 20
Archivist/PRCs 20
Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Spellwarp Sniper-or-Arcane Trickster 5
Factotum 11/Chameleon 9
Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 4/Abjurant Champion 4

Note, Dragon Magazine gives Fighters the "Targetteer" Archetype which increases their power greatly. Arrow Swarm allows for two extra attacks at -5 to all; it can be made worth it since with bows, it's easy to ramp up your To Hit but harder to get damage.

Mystic Ranger is likewise from Dragon Magazine; basically reaches 5th level spells on Character Level 10 (stalls out there tho). Really good anyways. There are more complex, superior builds for Swift Hunter Mystic Ranger but I don't remember the optimal leveling order offhand so I'm just giving this; worth noting that Stalker of Kharash from Book of Exalted Deeds gets you the omegapowerful Favored Enemy: Evil.

Knowledge Devotion and Ranged Weapon Mastery/Weapon Specialization are generally two fairly good feats for Archers just as means to add flat damage on the volleys Archers are so good at (Splitting Bow from Champions of Ruin is absolutely amazing; add Force from Magic Item Compendium and Collision & Seeking from SRD and you have a dreambow aside from having all that on the already listed Hank's Bow with Power Attack). If any PF Material is allowed, Deadly Aim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat) is absolutely amazing. Rapid Shot is always a must too, of course. It's the only awesome thing for Archers in Core.

Oh, and 3.0 Archers get a lot of good stuff. Peerless Archer gets Power Shot, Deepwood Sniper stacks critical increases, 3.0 version of Order of the Bow Initiate gets all good stuff and the Weapon Master from Sword & Fist was pretty good too (though with ridiculous feat prerequisites). If you can use Silver Marches, Masters of the Wild or Sword & Fist, Archers get infinitely more doable and martial Archers become viable. Even the One Shot One Kill Archer is kinda doable with Fighter (using Sniper-variant from Targetteer to lose attacks for increased threat range) and Deepwood Sniper.

Of 3.5 PRCs, Cragtop Archer [Races of Stone] gets you lots of range, Exotic Weapon Master [Complete Warrior] is a one-level dip for Greatbow users to avoid AoOs for shooting from melee and Justice of Weald and Woe is a reasonable Sneak Attack Archer PRC with some spells. That's about it. Oh, and Incarnate Archers also work.

Ask in more detail about what in particular you want.

I see. What exactly is precision damage?

Sneak Attack, Skirmish, etc. Limited to short ranges, but powerful in those. Not my preferred way of archery but it can work if you need no more than 30' range.

That only works once per target, due to the rules on volley fire, but when it works, people explode.

Volley rules only apply to actual volleys so unless you use Manyshot or Scorching Ray, you get precision damage on every attack...

EDIT: Oh yeah, and X stat to Y bonus is pretty good; getting any stat to ranged damage is always a great thing. Shiba Protector works IIRC, for example.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-01-28, 11:55 AM

There's always the Scout/Ranger Swift Hunter build, which has the added advantage of re-enabling precision-based damage to normally precision-immune targets.

Or, if you just want ranged damage output, rather than an archer specifically, you could always HFW or Mailman.

lesser_minion

2013-01-28, 11:55 AM

People have made useful builds out of nearly everything in the game. Even commoner, thanks in no small part to an infinite number of chickens.

That said, you've pretty much got it. Using the right weapon properties and feats turns your bow into a machine gun, and then you'd stack sources of bonus damage on top of that. Bear in mind that the extra arrow from manyshot doesn't trigger sneak attack or anything similar.

MIC has a lot of projectile-weapon-exclusive properties, including force, which defeats a few things (at least damage reduction, etherealness, and incorporeality, and possibly wind effects depending on your DM) whose rules text would otherwise read as something approaching "any archers present are royally shafted hereby".

RFLS

2013-01-28, 11:55 AM

Everything people have said above is true, especially about Pathfinder archery. I don't have too much to add, but I can tell you that the most fun I've ever had with an archer was one with a few levels in Artificer. I convinced the DM to let me make arrows using the Craft Wondrous Items feat, and then made use-activated arrows of various low level spells. Good times....

Shining Wrath

2013-01-28, 12:05 PM

Scout / Ranger can work. Add the Multishot feat. Get the best bow you can, and don't forget Bracers of Archery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bracersofArcheryLesser). All the pluses do add up.

One of the few advantages to archery is that you can get ammunition crafted for 1/50th the cost. This lets you have 10 arrows of Mage Bane, 10 of Dragon Bane, 10 of Aberration Bane, et cetera. The synergy between the bow having the generally useful bonuses while the ammo has the situational bonuses means you can have the equivalent of a +5 weapon (normal cost: 50k) for a +3 bow (cost 18k) and a +2 arrow (cost for 50 is 8k). By +3 I mean (+1 and, e.g., Holy). So you could have a +1 Holy Bow firing +1 Mage Bane arrows for 26k, which is a lot cheaper than a +2 Holy Mage Bane sword.

Ravens_cry

2013-01-28, 12:17 PM

Pathfinder added some extras that make it especially useful. Deadly Aim, power attack for ranged attackers is one. Clustered Shots (apply DR only once per full attack) is another. Ranger can definitely work, especially as now you don't need to qualify for your bonus feats. Pathfinder Zen Archer can be very, very nice and are, in fact, the opposite of MAD, especially if your DM lets you use the Guided weapon property, which is Paizo but not strictly speaking Pathfinder material.

Con_Brio1993

2013-01-28, 12:30 PM

Ignis6669

2013-01-28, 12:39 PM

You may consider Soulknife (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm)to Soulbow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2). Otherwise you can build it about the same as any other archer. Honestly, my favorite thing about it is that "Any feats previously requiring specific weapon choice (such as Weapon Specialization) for your mind blade also apply to your mind arrow, if applicable." Which means that you get double duty from your feats.

Also, in the sake of full disclosure, I'm a fan of never really being disarmed. :smallredface:

ArcturusV

2013-01-28, 12:42 PM

Keld Denar

2013-01-28, 12:42 PM

Inspire Courage is another very valuable source of bonus damage. Either vanilla IC or Dragonfire flavor.

Vaz

2013-01-28, 12:44 PM

Martial Initiator Stances typically work with Archery, even if the strikles are almost exclusively melee.

Karoht

2013-01-28, 12:49 PM

I'll bring up a secondary question.

With concealment, wind wall, and other such spells which can stop missile based attacks pretty easily, how do archers continue to be relevant past the point where such counter tactics become more commonly accessable?

I'm currently playing a [Pathfinder] Ninja (rogue alternate class) who is focusing on bow usage and poisons. I'm not worried so much about the numbers I can deal, my concern lies in being able to actually hit things with arrows as more counters come online.

Con_Brio1993

2013-01-28, 12:52 PM

I wouldn't think you'd have any problem adding multiple damage types.

I base this off say, spells like Hellfire. Which is typed as specifically doing X damage, half of which are two different energy types (Fire and Corrupt if I recall). So obviously the system itself is already built to accept you using multiple energy types at once. So it should be possible to have a Shocking, Flaming, Icy Composite Longbow.

Yeah but the text is weird and says: "The effect remains until another command is given."

This implies that any other command (like activating Flaming when you have Frost up) cancels it out. So a Flaming/Frost/Shock Longbow could only be ONE of those three elemental types at any given time. :(

Flickerdart

2013-01-28, 12:54 PM

There's a couple of niche things you can use:
Divine Might and Hexbands both add Charisma to damage for 1 round (one by expending TUs, another 3/day on a target cursed by a Hexblade) and don't care if it's melee or ranged.
The reserve feat Holy Warrior adds +X to damage, where X is the highest level War Domain spell you have left.
Peerless Archer from Silver Marches (a 1st party 3.0 adventure) gets ranged Power Attack, if you can't get the Energy Bow.
Shiba Protector gives +Wisdom to attack and damage, and doesn't care what you add it to, this pairs well with Soulbow's +Wisdom to damage.

ArcturusV

2013-01-28, 12:55 PM

Seen lots of little tricks out there to cancel Concealment and the like. Feats, heck, even first level spells like True Strike if you happen to have any spellcasting available to you.

But really it's a problem. It's not even necessarily a "high level" problem, as lower level spells like Shield and Protection from Arrows can prove... annoying.

Too often when I've played bow users I've found myself forced to adopt old first edition Rogue Tactics. Meaning I'm not attacking every turn. Instead it's more like "Attack... now hide... reposition around their counter if possible so they don't have concealment/cover/blocking terrain... now pop up and snipe."

And considering with a bow you aren't doing more damage than a typical melee fighter, it just kinda sucks.

But for a rogue with Sneak Attack it's not AS much of an issue. Setting up successful sneak attacks like that can help offset some of the hurt from only being able to attack once every other round/every third round or so. And gets a little more interesting than say, the Scout and the "10 feet to the left, shoot, 10 feet to the right, shoot" pattern they often get into.

Keld Denar

2013-01-28, 12:59 PM

It's Divine Might, not Divine Power. The former is a feat, the later is a spell. Although, if you have a Bone Bow or a Bow of Wintermoon or any other adjustable Str pull bow, Divine Power would give you +3 damage from the Str along with full BAB which might grant an extra iterative attack.

Flickerdart

2013-01-28, 01:01 PM

Right, I always get the names mixed up. WotC, thesauruses, etc.

Talderas

2013-01-28, 01:01 PM

So you could have a +1 Holy Bow firing +1 Mage Bane arrows for 26k, which is a lot cheaper than a +2 Holy Mage Bane sword.

The enhancement bonuses on weapons and arrows do not stack. They may have worked that way in 3.0 but that is not how they work in 3.5. A +1 Holy Bow firing +1 Mage Bane Arrows would be on par to a +1 Holy Mage Bane sword.

Unless a DM gives them to you as loot, an enhancement bonus higher than +1 is more or less wasted on arrows.

Eldariel

2013-01-28, 01:06 PM

How would a Factotum do archery without dips in other classes?

Also do energy effects stack? Reading up on them, the wording suggests that activating one effect cancels another. So I cant have a Shock/Flaming/Frost bow dealing 1d8+3d8 energy damage and shock/flaming/frost arrows adding another +3d8. :/

You can combine 'em. But they're not the best. They're okay in Core where Archers really don't have much to work with but vs. e.g. Outsiders with a plenthora of energy resistances and immunities, or any spellcasting enemies with Resist Energy available as a level 2 spell, they quickly begin to lose utility.

Collision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#collision) is reliable, flat 5 damage. Holy is another decent option and Bane Arrows are much cheaper than Bane weapons so you can carry few for any task required (also more specialized arrows, of course, since a single arrow is 1/50 a weapon's price).

Factotum's primary contribution to Archery is being able to spam the hell out of Manyshot with Cunning Surge and ignoring any DR. Outside that, they're nothing to write home about so if you're interested in longer ranges, they're not for you. Manyshot Spam can be quite efficient though and they can pull off decent snipes with Sniper's Shot (they can prepare spells after all) + Cunning Strike stacking a ton of dice on one arrow (though if Cunning Strike is read to not be usable more than once per attack, it's obviously useless).

I'll bring up a secondary question.

With concealment, wind wall, and other such spells which can stop missile based attacks pretty easily, how do archers continue to be relevant past the point where such counter tactics become more commonly accessable?

Magic. Seeking weapon property deals with Concealment quite amazingly and is only +1. It's a near must-have. Wind effects are harder; positioning gets you so far but eventually you want Force arrows which, while not written out as such, are Force items and thus they should ignore things like wind.

Either way they hit Ethereals and Incorporeals with 100% accuracy and they ignore DR, which alone makes 'em worth it (watch out for the odd Force Dragon and Forcewarded enemy tho; turn off Force-property vs. such enemies). Phasing Arrows also exist in a Dragon Magazine, which can penetrate 5' of solid matter (of course, how to detect enemies behind solid matter is another issue but there are ways like Arcane Sight, Tremorsense or Mindsight).

But yeah, an Archer is much more reliant on his magic bow and his magic arrows than a normal Warrior is reliant on his magic weapon.

nedz

2013-01-28, 01:27 PM

The enhancement bonuses on weapons and arrows do not stack. They may have worked that way in 3.0 but that is not how they work in 3.5. A +1 Holy Bow firing +1 Mage Bane Arrows would be on par to a +1 Holy Mage Bane sword.

Unless a DM gives them to you as loot, an enhancement bonus higher than +1 is more or less wasted on arrows.

Well you have a +1 Flaming, ..., Bow and you get a caster to stick Greater Magic Weapon on your Arrows. The +1 from the bow overlaps with the pluses from GMW, and the Flaming etc. stacks.

Flickerdart

2013-01-28, 01:29 PM

Well you have a +1 Flaming, ..., Bow and you get a caster to stick Greater Magic Weapon on your Arrows. The +1 from the bow overlaps with the pluses from GMW, and the Flaming etc. stacks.
Why would you get it cast on the arrows? A well-prepared archer carries around many more than 50, and at the rate they go through those things, the 50 might run out before the GMW does.

Person_Man

2013-01-28, 01:33 PM

In my personal experience, the best archers are ones that don't invest significant resources (especially Feats or class abilities) into being an archer, but instead just adopt an archer's tactics.

Use some method of battlefield control. Summon, Solid Fog, Earth Devotion, Entangling Exhalation, nets, tanglefoot bags, ranged trip abilities, Save or Suck/Lose effects, whatever. Flood the zone, and try and lock down or take out enemy casters.
Shoot at your enemies using full attack actions with your bow until they approach you. If your battlefield control effect did it's job properly, you should get at least one or two rounds to do this.
When/if enemies do move within your threatened area, Quickdraw (or one of the various magic item equivalents) out a reach weapon, smack them with an attack of opportunity.
Switch over to melee or whatever your primary class abilities happen to be. This should be where you invested most of your resources, so it should now be easier to mop up your softened up enemies. (It also has the benefit of conserving limited resources, like spells, power points, etc).

Now, imagine what combat would be like if everyone in your party followed this basic tactic when is was reasonable to do so. 4-5 overlapping battlefield control effects, followed by everyone concentrating their fire against the enemy's artillery (casters, other ranged attackers, etc), followed by mopping up remaining enemies.

I know that there's an overwhelming urge to put all/most of your resources into one main "build" concept or combo, and then use that combo as often as possible. But there's no crunch based reason to do that with archery.

Zubrowka74

2013-01-28, 01:45 PM

You play a guy named Hank, who has access to a power-attacking bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a). This alleviates some of the problems.

Naming him Legolas also works. You also get to shield-surf.

Shining Wrath

2013-01-28, 01:55 PM

The enhancement bonuses on weapons and arrows do not stack. They may have worked that way in 3.0 but that is not how they work in 3.5. A +1 Holy Bow firing +1 Mage Bane Arrows would be on par to a +1 Holy Mage Bane sword.

Unless a DM gives them to you as loot, an enhancement bonus higher than +1 is more or less wasted on arrows.

Sorry, my bad on that part. But I still find a +1 Holy Mage Bane weapon to be pretty handy if you're fighting an evil mage ... and how often does THAT happen? :smallbiggrin:

JaronK

2013-01-28, 02:07 PM

Talderas

2013-01-28, 02:08 PM

Archers also excel at sheer range to make attacks at.

A long range spell at level 20 only has a range of 1200ft.

I am playing a level 5 archer that can reasonably hit things up through his 5th range increment which is 975ft away (great bow + far shot for 195ft range increment [130+65]). Two to three more levels and he can comfortably shoot things up to 1170ft away. At the extreme limit of his range increments he will be able to hit things up to 1950ft away.

ericgrau

2013-01-28, 02:20 PM

Archers have tactical advantage. You get more full attacks, foes must move to hit you and its easier to focus fire on the same foe as your allies. So your main goal should actually be to reduce your enemy's melee damage below yours by dropping him before he can get very many attacks. Whenever you have the option, engage foes at the longest range you can.

Generally I would use a full BAB class or buffing your attack bonus to get lots of hits rather than going for much extra damage. And because strength damage helps too without costing you attack bonus. But as a rare exception pixie rogues make awesome archers because they are one of the few ways to get a sneak attack trigger and a decent number of hits (invisibility +2 to hit vs. flat-footed AC overcomes medium BAB) without wasting your 1st turn activating your trick. If you are allowed to play a pixie then do it, but otherwise go for a high attack bonus volley archer.

At high levels most of your damage comes from your weapon so at those levels you can actually get a tactical advantage AND high damage. Bane arrows and exotic metal arrows to overcome DR help too. At levels 5-10 poison is viable, so consider poison to get you past the low damage hump. Sure foes have a good chance of passing their save, but it doesn't cost you an action so consider it a bonus on top of your damage. Plus someone is bound to roll low after 10 arrows and then the effect is devastating. Try drow sleep poison for general combat use.

Gotterdammerung

2013-01-28, 02:46 PM

The most cost effecient feat for a medium lvl or higher archer from a damage perspective is leadership.

Leadership will allow you to build a cohort specifically designed around giving you lava arrows via optimization of the "flame arrow" spell. He also does not need to adventure with you to provide these arrows making it a lot easier to justify leadership if your DM is against having a large party due to cohorts. If you are interested in what an optimized flame arrow looks like shoot me a private message and I will go into detail.

Aside from that weapon spec and greater weapon spec feats

composite str bow

magic bow

Knowledge devotion feat

Ranged Weapon mastery feat

and if you have power points, the psychic enhancement

all add flat arrow damage.

Sense weakness feat from draconomicon adds functional damage by reducing all DR by 5.

Splitting weapon enhancement adds functional dmg by doubling all arrows shot (even doubles the flame arrow spells effect)

Exit wounds weapon enhancement functionally adds dmg by allowing your arrows to shoot through people and hit new targets in the flight path. (essentially more targets per shot).

Rapid shot feat provides a functional dmg increase by providing an extra shot per round.

Speed weapon does the same thing.

The shattermantle weapon enhancemant from the MIC is also worth mentioning. While it does not directly effect your dmg, with an archers high accuracy and flurry of attacks you can strip a respectable amount of SR with this enhancement possibly setting up casters in your group for an easy win.

Venger

2013-01-28, 04:05 PM

I see. What exactly is precision damage?

Precision damage is any of the following:

Sneak attack:

-triggered when you deny an enemy dex (beat them on initiative, enemy is blinded/stunned/paralyzed/helpless/grappled by someone other than you/caught flat-footed)

OR

-when you flank

-can deal nonlethal damage with a weapon intended for it (sap, unarmed strike, merciful weapon) but cannot deal nonlethal damage with a lethal weapon.

-works on melee or at a range of <30ft

Sudden strike:

-triggered when you deny an enemy dex (beat them on initiative, enemy is blinded/stunned/paralyzed/helpless/grappled by someone other than you/caught flat-footed)

-NOT triggered when you flank

-CAN NOT deal nonlethal damage at all, not even with a nonlethal or merciful weapon

-works on melee or at a range of <30ft

Skirmish:

-triggered when you move 10 or more feet in a round

-works on melee or at a range of <30ft

Sneak attack

Sneak attack, applying in the most available situations, is the most versatile and thus the best of the three most common types of precision damage. sneak attack is also fortunately the most common of these abilities by far, and is granted by several base classes including:

-expert
-factotum (via cunning strike)
-rogue
-spellthief
-swashbuckler (via daring outlaw)

it is given by a handful of prestige classes including:
-assassin
-blackguard
-cancer mage
-daggerspell mage
-daggerspell shaper
-hand of the winged master*
-ronin
-scorpion heritor
-unseen seer*
-whisperknife

*these will progress any of the precision damage types: sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish
there are a few variations on sneak attack that are also granted as class features for some prestige classes. when providing a unique form of precision damage, sneak attack is the most commonly referenced, as with the following:

-crimson scourge's painful strike
-dragonstalker's dragon sneak attack
-justiciar's nonlethal sneak attack
-thrall of graz'zt's spell betrayal

since it is the only one of the three that is usable as a direct result of flanking, it is seen on melee focused characters in addition to ranged characters. flanking is the easier way to achieve a successful sneak attack than denying enemies their dex mods reliably, so many people prefer to do this, especially since many monsters and enemy characters are immune to precision damage (anything that is immune to critical hits is also immune to precision damage, and some enemies that aren't crit immune have resistance or immunity to being hit with precision damage)

Sudden strike

The next most common to see is sudden strike. the only base class that grants it is the ninja. two prcs give it:
-avenging executioner
-ghost-faced killer

one gives a variation on it:
-cloaked dancer (with its surprise strike ability)

this ability is markedly more difficult to use than sneak attack since flanking doesn't activate it. in average combats, especially in early levels, it is difficult to reliably deny enemies their dex mods without some way of turning invisible which is difficult to do for a precision damage based character without:

-dipping into a spellcasting class
delays your sudden strike progression
-burning money and actions on wands
you are already likely spending actions getting into position and not attacking, so spending another prebuffing with an in-combat only spell (that will wear off each time you attack) lowers your damage output even more
-dipping monk2 for invisible fist
delays your sudden strike progression
-using ninja to actually get points in the ki pool
ninja is not a very good class, not synergizing with itself very well in much the same way monk does. you are likely better off leaving as soon as you can for a class that gives you more precision damage

Skirmish

skirmish is the rarest and most difficult to use ability of these three. to my knowledge, only the scout gets it (though swift hunters, as mentioned, get it on their ranger levels through the feat of the same name)

you can only use skirmish when you move 10 feet in a round, which normally precludes full attacking, making your job of dealing damage even more difficult. consequently, people interested in skirmish often take the travel devotion feat, make use of the hustle power, or find other ways of moving 10+ feet as a swift/free/immediate without taking a move action

How they work together

complete scoundrel introduced a new kind of feat called "ambush feats" which require some number of sneak attack dice. for this purpose, sneak attack and sudden strike can be added to provide your total (example: you have 1d6 SA and 2d6 SS, you can take ambush feats that require 3d6)

in a fashion similar to metamagic feats, you will sacrifice SA dice in order to gain additional effects such as blinding, deafening, or otherwise penalizing your enemies.

skirmish, being very different from the other two abilities, does not normally count for this purpose. if you take swift ambusher (which you should not, because it is terrible), then it allows your skirmish dice to count as SA dice for ambush feats, though it doesn't let you burn skirmish for additional effects.

as far as prestige classes go, since sudden strike came after the core books were written, a character can have any mix of sneak attack and sudden strike (but not skirmish) to qualify. for example, you can enter assassin with 2d6 SA and 3d6 SS

Flickerdart

2013-01-28, 04:07 PM

Dragon Devotee also progresses any precision damage, so there's that if you want to take it for some reason.

Tvtyrant

2013-01-28, 04:13 PM

One way to make an archer that does decent damage is to play an Artificer, and then overlap enchantments. 5 enchantments on the arrows, 5 on the bow, and a schema of Greater Magic Weapon to get +15.

GrimoireM

2013-01-28, 04:38 PM

An Arcane Archer dip works pretty well if you're looking to combine it with arcane spellcasting. Grab a few blast spells alongside whatever buffs you and your party want and use Imbue Arrow to fire one off. From there, stick to enhancing your bow's range and to-hit bonuses. Look up some blaster tricks to enhance energy damage and you've got a nasty recipe for pain.

Admittedly, that's the tall and narrow approach to a typically wide problem, and doesn't solve archers dealing damage as much as it follows the mailman along through his route.

DEMON

2013-01-28, 05:03 PM

You play a guy named Hank, who has access to a power-attacking bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a). This alleviates some of the problems.

All of the problem, actually. Decent damage (2d6 base, composite, +2 enhancement, power shots), you benefit from strength buffs and are not totally screwed if your strength goes down for some reason, it overcomes DR for pretty much all the monsters out there and you can't run out of arrows.

All in all, there are several upsides to archery
- range (tactical advantage)
- easier ability to full attack (from a "safe" distance)
- easier way around damage reduction (managing a golf bag of arrows is a lot easier and cheaper than it is with actual weapons and Force enhancement is the best)
- sheer number of attacks you can get in a round is much higher than what most melee fighters get (this is especially useful when fighting many mooks allowing you to attack down many targets in one round) which combines very well with additional damage
- except for enhancement bonuses, all other magical improvements on arrows and bows stacks so in theory you can have a shot with +19 worth of enhancements (that would be expensive as all hell, though)

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-01-28, 05:20 PM

All of the problem, actually. Decent damage (2d6 base, composite, +2 enhancement, power shots), you benefit from strength buffs and are not totally screwed if your strength goes down for some reason, it overcomes DR for pretty much all the monsters out there and you can't run out of arrows.Your definition of 'decent' and mine are apparently very -very- different.

All in all, there are several upsides to archery
- range (tactical advantage)
- easier ability to full attack (from a "safe" distance)Pounce negates both of these

- easier way around damage reduction (managing a golf bag of arrows is a lot easier and cheaper than it is with actual weapons and Force enhancement is the best)Not when you have extradimensional spaces which can carry your swords around... assuming you don't just do something like Shards of Granite to bypass it. Besides, dealing several hundred damage? 15 or so isn't a big problem.

- sheer number of attacks you can get in a round is much higher than what most melee fighters get (this is especially useful when fighting many mooks allowing you to attack down many targets in one round) which combines very well with additional damageUmm... not really. TWFer is going to be cranking out way more attacks

- except for enhancement bonuses, all other magical improvements on arrows and bows stacks so in theory you can have a shot with +19 worth of enhancements (that would be expensive as all hell, though)

If you want to blow that much cash on expendables... most people don't.

Archers almost always get a bum deal when compared to other methods of closing quickly with opponents (Pounce) or even thrown weapons (Master Thrower, Bloodstorm Blade).

Flickerdart

2013-01-28, 05:22 PM

Umm... not really. TWFer is going to be cranking out way more attacks
You can get quite a few attacks with either dual-wielded Hand Crossbows or Arrow Demon form for bow dual-wields, plus splitting.

Curmudgeon

2013-01-28, 05:28 PM

With concealment, wind wall, and other such spells which can stop missile based attacks pretty easily, how do archers continue to be relevant past the point where such counter tactics become more commonly accessable?
Wind Wall is a tough one because it's fairly comprehensive protection. However, simply being big enough works. If you're size Large with Powerful Build you can use a Huge heavy crossbow. That's the minimum size for counting as a siege engine, which Wind Wall doesn't deter. Magical enhancements like Quick Loading (automatically load the next bolt: Magic Item Compendium) and Self-Loading (automatically pull back the string: Arms and Equipment Guide) make full attacks expensive but viable.

Seeking can be added either to the crossbow or to the arrows, 50 at a time; that takes care of concealment.

Protection from Arrows is automatically bypassed by magic, so that's largely useless within a couple levels after spellcasters are able to cast the spell.

thethird

2013-01-28, 05:34 PM

Pounce negates both of these

[...]

Archers almost always get a bum deal when compared to other methods of closing quickly with opponents (Pounce) or even thrown weapons (Master Thrower, Bloodstorm Blade).

Take into account that the range of fire of a specialized archer is much farther than the range of charge of a specialized charger.

For example an elven ranger 5 / deepwood sniper 10 / cragtop archer 5 with an eagle's cry bow and flight arrows can full attack reliably at 12800 feet.

Yes this range is normally not viable, due to other people not having such a range but... it is still a possibility for a good archer.

Feralventas

2013-01-28, 05:45 PM

I am all kinds of late to this party, but I'd like to point to the Binder as an archery-based character. One of my players has been quite happy with his character so far, and has been able to keep up with the party's main damage dealers (Two Fighter/Warblades and a Musket-master Gunslinger).

Binder into Knight of the Sacred Seal and then back to Binder once finished with it.

At starting levels, you bind with Leraje, who grants you weapon proficiency, some extra bonuses with archery, and a ricochet attack to hit two targets at once with a single shot.

At low to mid levels, you pick up Andromilious and Malphas to use the stealthier aspects of their and Leraje's abilities to sneak around and poke for sneak attack damage to start with. You can also use Malphas' poisons to strike with additional debuffs and damage options.

That said, yes Sneak Attacks and Poisons aren't always viable, and in order to really make this work you're looking at investing most of your feats in things like Precise, Point Blank, Rapid Shot and Hammer the Gap if PF stuff is allowed, but it does Work, and if you know you're going to be in a situation where stealth or damage isn't going to be as important (social encounters, endurance scenes while tracking enemies, or down-time) you can bind alternative vestiges, making full use of the Binder's T3 status right out of the book, let alone T2 options via the online supplements (though at that point you are straying somewhat from archery if you decide to start spamming Summon Monster).

nedz

2013-01-28, 05:49 PM

Take into account that the range of fire of a specialized archer is much farther than the range of charge of a specialized charger.

For example an elven ranger 5 / deepwood sniper 10 / cragtop archer 5 with an eagle's cry bow and flight arrows can full attack reliably at 12800 feet.

Yes this range is normally not viable, due to other people not having such a range but... it is still a possibility for a good archer.

This range almost certainly exceeds the range at which you can see your target — but the dysfunction of the Spot rules are well known.

Flickerdart

2013-01-28, 05:50 PM

This range almost certainly exceeds the range at which you can see your target — but the dysfunction of the Spot rules are well known.
D&D technology is perfectly capable of producing spyglasses, so a telescope is not really out of the question for an archer who really wants to shoot everything.

thethird

2013-01-28, 05:58 PM

Being a sword of the arcane order gives access to wizard spells. Chain of eyes is a level 2 sor/wiz spell. Animal companion is a class feature (or handle animal is a class skill depending on how many eyes you want, corollax are quite nice as trainable spotters).

DEMON

2013-01-28, 06:42 PM

Your definition of 'decent' and mine are apparently very -very- different.

I really don't want to get into the "who can pimp his toon better" argument, but considering you took the time to comment on all my points I will do the same and be done with it.

So first of all, Hank's bow - the default damage is 2d6 + any STR mod + power attack overcoming DR (excluding Force Dragon and maybe a few more monsters). You can also use any other arrows, but the 2d6 damage will drop to 1d8 + any other effect you might have on the arrow.

And this is acquired with a single magic weapon, with no additional enhancement to it.

Maybe it's not as much about different definition between us, as it is about too high expectations for what the archery should be able to do on your side. So my question is: What exactly would you expect from archery?

Pounce negates both of these

Agreed... to an extent. But not every melee character has pounce at hand.

Not when you have extradimensional spaces which can carry your swords around... assuming you don't just do something like Shards of Granite to bypass it. Besides, dealing several hundred damage? 15 or so isn't a big problem.

I am not saying there are no other ways to overcome DR, I'm saying that archery is one of the more convenient as far as martial characters go. Besides a golf bag of weapons costs significantly more than a golf bag of arrows.

Umm... not really. TWFer is going to be cranking out way more attacks

1. You can combine these two styles... if your are drowning in feats
2. Splitting is 2WFing for archery in a sense (and thanks to Woodland Archer your to hit chances on iteratives are ofter better)
3. Getting a full attack with 2 weapons is a bit more complicated and a bit more dangerous than it is with archery. It can be done, of course, but there are inherent drawbacks to 2WFing as well.

If you want to blow that much cash on expendables... most people don't.

Agreed, and I kind of acknowledged it in my post. But still, a +6 bow with a +5 arrow is much cheaper than a +10 weapon. And there are other money saving combinations - many +1 or +2 enhancements are very arrow-friendly allowing for 50 arrows at the cost of ~18k that you only use every now and then to good effect.

Archers almost always get a bum deal when compared to other methods of closing quickly with opponents (Pounce) or even thrown weapons (Master Thrower, Bloodstorm Blade).

To sum it up, I am not saying that archery has no flaws and is by far the best fighting style. I have listed several points that I consider pros of archery and you have countered most of them with different items. So yes, pouncing, two-weapon fighting, power attacking charger is way better on most accounts and a high-tier spellcaster is better in anything and everything (including archery when compared to a martial class) but I'm not denying that at all.

nedz

2013-01-28, 06:48 PM

D&D technology is perfectly capable of producing spyglasses, so a telescope is not really out of the question for an archer who really wants to shoot everything.

Spyglass
Objects viewed through a spyglass are magnified to twice their size.
Well the actual modifier depends upon the size of the target, but looking at the hide rules a +4 modifier is likely. This corresponds to a mere 40' difference in Spot distance, so D&D technology isn't so good here.

Being a sword of the arcane order gives access to wizard spells. Chain of eyes is a level 2 sor/wiz spell. Animal companion is a class feature (or handle animal is a class skill depending on how many eyes you want, corollax are quite nice as trainable spotters).

Well you are assuming a Ranger build — but that's entirely reasonable.
I can see how you can keep tabs on a target at range, and switching views is a free action, but that doesn't help you with aiming your bow at the actual target — you know where it is, but you still can't see it to fire since you do not have line of sight. This trick might work with a fireball — I think ?

Flickerdart

2013-01-28, 06:54 PM

Well the actual modifier depends upon the size of the target, but looking at the hide rules a +4 modifier is likely. This corresponds to a mere 40' difference in Spot distance, so D&D technology isn't so good here.

That's the default, portable spyglass. I'm talking about a more elaborate, specially built item; the spyglass reference is just to underline that D&D has lens-crafting technology.

ArcturusV

2013-01-28, 06:57 PM

Probably not since Fireball is a LoS projectile.

The real problem with Archery though? The only situation it really does shine is when you're doing those impossibly long range mile/two mile shots that nothing else can really match, not even spellcasting. With basically one of/the most powerful Archer build spec'd for that sort of thing. And presuming wilderness based adventures with wide open terrain and fair enough conditions you can actually spot those enemies (Open daylight, no camouflage, etc).

But in that situation you are the ONLY one that can really do anything but twiddle their thumbs until the enemy runs off or closes.

But most adventures I've seen? They don't really have situations where you are going to be able to be shooting at 12,800 feet or something. You just don't run into that perfect mix of situations with clear lines to the target, open ground, enough light to spot them, etc.

Instead you end up in things like Urban environments, where you max "Spot and Engage" range might be more like 200 feet. Forests where you might get lucky and spot someone at 300 feet. Dungeons where you max spot and engage is more like 100 feet at best.

Which totally negates your super awesome range advantage. And without that... well... then you're usually stuck having to accept a role as one of the lesser sources of damage/combat efficiency in the encounter.

Togo

2013-01-28, 07:01 PM

A bloodseeking (CW) bow will simply go around wind wall. Combine that with the seeking enhancement, and ghost touch, and there aren't many defences left that can stop you.

nedz

2013-01-28, 07:07 PM

That's the default, portable spyglass. I'm talking about a more elaborate, specially built item; the spyglass reference is just to underline that D&D has lens-crafting technology.

Erm, do you have a source for a better telescope ?
The one in the PH is 1,000 gp — so we are not talking about some cheap trinket here.

Probably not since Fireball is a LoS projectile.

OK — so not even with Fireball then.

DEMON

2013-01-28, 07:12 PM

A bloodseeking (CW) bow will simply go around wind wall. Combine that with the seeking enhancement, and ghost touch, and there aren't many defences left that can stop you.

You don't even need Ghost Touch enhancement if you have Force one (though it's a +2 enhancement unlike the Ghost Touch one) and it might also overcome the Wind Wall (not sure, calling more rules savvy guys to the rescue).

thethird

2013-01-28, 07:29 PM

nedz

2013-01-28, 08:04 PM

On line of sight (without ranger)... the sky (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#sense) is the limit. You just need to know which square (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#seeking) to fire at.

That would only allow him to shoot the quasireal version of his bow though.
How much damage do quasireal arrows do ?

Red1086

2013-01-28, 08:40 PM

So I know the standard ways melee characters can do damage in 3.5e but how on earth are ranged archer type characters supposed to do respectable damage? Are you just supposed to get a magical bow stacked with multiple types of energy damage and then combine that with multishot? Do you have to play a class with sneak attack? Are there any feats that help add damage like how melee builds have Power Attack?

Or is archery as useless as it seems?

Two viewpoints on this,

1. Ranged characters are generally away from the immediate danger, hence the lack of damage to make up for the survivability.

2. We have a rogue archer in our current group that felt completely useless during combat. She talked to the DM and he said since melee characters get their str bonus for melee dmg, ranged characters can get their dex bonus for ranged damage.

Togo

2013-01-28, 09:04 PM

You don't even need Ghost Touch enhancement if you have Force one (though it's a +2 enhancement unlike the Ghost Touch one) and it might also overcome the Wind Wall (not sure, calling more rules savvy guys to the rescue).

The advantage of adding ghost touch to that bow is that then you can fire through solid objects, like brick walls. As long as you know which square they're in, say by hearing them, you're going to hit most of the time. Ends some combats before they even begin.

Phelix-Mu

2013-01-28, 09:12 PM

Two viewpoints on this,

1. Ranged characters are generally away from the immediate danger, hence the lack of damage to make up for the survivability.

2. We have a rogue archer in our current group that felt completely useless during combat. She talked to the DM and he said since melee characters get their str bonus for melee dmg, ranged characters can get their dex bonus for ranged damage.

I agree with point two. A sensible DM can probably be convinced to modify the standard 3.5 rules, in which archery is significantly not as cool as real life, to allow some kind of fix. As far as precedent goes, there were all kinds of good rules for ranged back in 3.0, which for some reason they dumped for 3.5, along with needless gimping of arcane archer. PF also seems to have some good stuff, and I recently found what appears to be a 3.0 3rd party thing called "Three Arrows for the King," which seemed to have some pretty interesting optional rules and PrC for archery.

I certainly miss the kits from 2e that made for some cracking good archery characters. At least flavor-wise.:smallwink:

Flickerdart

2013-01-28, 09:14 PM

The advantage of adding ghost touch to that bow is that then you can fire through solid objects, like brick walls. As long as you know which square they're in, say by hearing them, you're going to hit most of the time. Ends some combats before they even begin.
Nope. Even if your incredibly dubious conclusion (that the clarification statement at the end adds new abilities rather than simply explains the old ones) Ghost Touch weapons don't bestow it on their ammunition. And after you've loosed a Ghost Touch arrow, you are no longer its wielder, so you can't decide to phase it. You also don't have line of sight to the target square, which ranged weapons need regardless. Since you don't have line of effect either (LoE is cancelled by solid barriers regardless of whether or not you can penetrate them), you can't even attack the square you think the opponent is in.

The only way to shoot through walls is using an ability like the Ballisteer's Phase Shot (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030426b) that specifically grants you the option.

ArcturusV

2013-01-28, 09:28 PM

Ah yeah, the old _______'s Handbook class modules from 2nd Edition? Loved those. Though for the longest time the only ones I had were the Barbarian's and the Paladin's. They were hard to come by at my local store. Plainsrider Kit and Expatriate Kit, fun times.

Yeah, adding Dex Mods to Archery damage is a good start.

Other way to go, and one I did before was allowing Called Shot disables (though I'd never let someone with Seeking or other Autohit abilities use it). It used to be something from 2nd Edition so I was used to running with it. Allow Archers to make called shots at a penalty for extra effects. Shooting someone in the foot to cut their movement by 1/4 at a -5 to hit. Shooting someone in the eye to blind them at a -10 to hit. Shooting someone in the hand to make them drop their weapon for a -8 to hit. Each "disable" shot also doing full damage if it hit.

Archers like it. Penalties were generally steep enough it wasn't a freebie. Gave them options other than doing Pure (And less than other combat roles) damage.

The Viscount

2013-01-28, 09:31 PM

If Dragon Compendium is allowed, Dead Eye adds Dex to ranged damage. It requires weapon focus, so not the best, but definitely the farthest reaching dex to ranged damage I've seen.

Zman

2013-01-28, 09:33 PM

You do what some little blighter in my campaign has done, which is build a ranger/occult slayer (with a few other dips) - at 15th level, against anyone who uses arcane spells or SLAs (which is pretty much everyone at his level!) he's got a rapid shot of +25/+25/+20/+15 doing 2d8+21+2d6 (+optional sacred damage) (Large composite greatbow with collision). Obviously less effective against divine or non-casters, but he can pretty much hose any dragon around! And guess who's DMing a campaign with loads of dragons and evil outsiders? Even when he's not at his most effective he's still one of the two main damage dealers in the party. Except when I manage to get him behind a Wind Wall :)

Well, have you considered using the updated version of Magebane from MIC, not the overpowered and underpriced Complete Arcane version your player is using.

To the OP, they pretty much got it all covered.

Phelix-Mu

2013-01-28, 09:34 PM

If Dragon Compendium is allowed, Dead Eye adds Dex to ranged damage. It requires weapon focus, so not the best, but definitely the farthest reaching dex to ranged damage I've seen.

Mmm, I had read that feat. The only complaint that I would have is that this makes the rather feat-intensive line of work that is archery even more feat intensive. Not an ideal fix, but at least it fits somewhere into the range of published material.

nedz

2013-01-28, 09:53 PM

Venger

2013-01-28, 11:04 PM

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the Ranger spell Hunter's Eye, from PH2. It is a swift spell, which lasts one round, and grants 1d6 sneak per three CL (that's per six Ranger levels — of course). Practised Spellcaster may help here. It's not awesome with archery, unlike TWF, but it is worth mentioning.

if you want to deal SA damage with ranger, check out "sniper's shot" from spell compendium. swift action, and all your sneak attacks until your next turn are made with no range cap.

obviously you can't use the two together, but since one of rogues' most important class features is UMD, I can see an archery focused rogue having fun with a wand of sniper's shot.

while the spell doesn't specify if it includes skirmish, a reasonable dm will allow a swift hunter to enjoy this as well, even if it does eat up your swift for the turn.

ArcturusV

2013-01-28, 11:18 PM

I think even RAW it would effect Skirmish. Doesn't Complete Adventurer say something in there like "Sudden Strike and Skirmish damage count as Sneak Attack dice for the purposes of feats, prestige classes and spells" or something like that?

alanek2002

2013-01-28, 11:22 PM

soulknife 2/swordsage2/fighter1/soulbow 1/shiba protector1/kensai X
take zen archery and you get wis to hit twice, wis to damage twice, and kensai gives +1 enhancement bonus per level, which can be used on stuff like splitting. oh, and wis to ac as well. using kensai for lucky lets every arrow have two chances to hit, not one/day!

Curmudgeon

2013-01-28, 11:29 PM

Erm, do you have a source for a better telescope ?
The one in the PH is 1,000 gp — so we are not talking about some cheap trinket here.
IIRC there was a masterwork spyglass in some Dragon (or possibly Dungeon) adventure, but that wasn't remotely cheap. My notes say it's 8x (instead of 2x) magnification for 16,000 gp.

Leon

2013-01-29, 02:21 AM

How do archers deal damage?

By going to extreme lengths compared to what melee can do with little

nedz

2013-01-29, 03:37 AM

IIRC there was a masterwork spyglass in some Dragon (or possibly Dungeon) adventure, but that wasn't remotely cheap. My notes say it's 8x (instead of 2x) magnification for 16,000 gp.

Interesting: but that's likely to be a +12 Hide modifier — which only corresponds to +120' in terms of Spot.

Feralventas

2013-01-29, 03:50 AM

Mmm, I had read that feat. The only complaint that I would have is that this makes the rather feat-intensive line of work that is archery even more feat intensive. Not an ideal fix, but at least it fits somewhere into the range of published material.

The erata makes it a lot less feat intensive in requirements and diminshed the BAB requirement to +1.

Eldariel

2013-01-29, 05:17 AM

Interesting: but that's likely to be a +12 Hide modifier — which only corresponds to +120' in terms of Spot.

Cragtop Archer further doubles your viewrange with one level.

nedz

2013-01-29, 05:26 AM

Cragtop Archer further doubles your viewrange with one level.

Which is very helpful — but Spot is very broken.

Ed:
Basically each additional point of Spot would now increase the distance you can see by 20' instead of 10'. I think that we might need more multipliers here.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-01-29, 05:53 AM

My understanding for how a spyglass (or telescope) works is that it essentially gives whatever is in its field of vision the appearance of being closer. That is, rather than make the object being viewed appear to be twice the size it is, it appears to be half as distant. That's just how these things work. The wording for the entry in the PHB just doesn't convey this properly.

Please don't say this is wrong by RAW. Even a cursory bit of research on the subject will tell you that this is how visual magnification works and pretending that just because the book says "objects ... are magnified to twice their size" that it only changes the size modifier to the target's hide check is willfully choosing an interpretation that makes less than no sense. When a strict adherence to RAW results in something that obviously wrong you shouldn't adhere strictly to RAW.

ArcturusV

2013-01-29, 06:21 AM

Though I can't imagine trying to aim a bow and use a spyglass at the same time would be easy. Or even effective really.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-01-29, 06:25 AM

Though I can't imagine trying to aim a bow and use a spyglass at the same time would be easy. Or even effective really.

It does require an spot-shoot-spot process rather than simultaneously spotting and shooting, but with a seeking weapon you don't have a miss-chance from not being able to see them as long as you can aim at the right square. If you're more than a mile out though, that's a perfectly acceptable difficulty. Especially given that they probably can't see you at all and certainly can't return fire.

JaronK

2013-01-29, 06:27 AM

The better way to do this involves a Cleric archer casting Chain of Eyes on the stealthiest person in the party, who then acts as a spotter. Now the archer can fire from full range without problems.

JaronK

thethird

2013-01-29, 06:36 AM

I think that my last post was misunderstood.

Line of sight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_lineofsight&alpha=).

"To determine line of sight, draw an imaginary line between your space and the target's space. If any such line is clear (not blocked), then you have line of sight to the creature (and it has line of sight to you)."

If you can draw a line you have line of sight and you can shoot.

Then, line of sight adds:

"If you can't see the target (for instance, if you're blind or the target is invisible), you can't have line of sight to it even if you could draw an unblocked line between your space and the target's."

You can see the target with several means of scrying or divination.

So If you can see the target and you can trace a line you have line of sight.

This doesn't mean that the enemy has line of sight to you, since it cannot see you, unless it uses divination (take down the diviners first).

The better way to do this involves a Cleric archer casting Chain of Eyes on the stealthiest person in the party, who then acts as a spotter. Now the archer can fire from full range without problems.

JaronK

Being a sword of the arcane order gives access to wizard spells. Chain of eyes is a level 2 sor/wiz spell. Animal companion is a class feature (or handle animal is a class skill depending on how many eyes you want, corollax are quite nice as trainable spotters).

:smalltongue:

Togo

2013-01-29, 06:39 AM

Nope. Even if your incredibly dubious conclusion (that the clarification statement at the end adds new abilities rather than simply explains the old ones) Ghost Touch weapons don't bestow it on their ammunition.

Well the Ghost Touch weapons in the DMG don't, but they're explicitly melee enhancements. Once you've got around that little wrinkle (there are several methods), the usual rule that enchantments on a bow are bestowed in it's ammunition then apply. Or you could just use ghost touch arrows.

You also don't have line of sight to the target square, which ranged weapons need regardless. Since you don't have line of effect either (LoE is cancelled by solid barriers regardless of whether or not you can penetrate them), you can't even attack the square you think the opponent is in.

Unless you have the bloodletting ability that was on the bow being discussed, which specifically grants you that option.

akahdrin

2013-01-29, 07:03 AM

Splitting bow, greater manyshot from XPH, ranger/scout using swift hunter, and craven. You'll get a ton of arrows fired and craven / favored enemy / skirmish add up in a hurry.

Add in force or brilliant energy and it just gets silly on top of the arrows and other effects you can use.

Don't forget your wand of hunter's mercy!

lesser_minion

2013-01-29, 07:17 AM

If your DM doesn't allow force arrows to penetrate wind walls, and you don't have bloodseeking arrows, it should be possible to shoot down the wall itself using an arrow that has the suppression property.

The problem with this is that the effect requires a high ML to be useful at high levels, and if you have that, you probably have other options for dealing with situations.

On the flip side, that may be a good thing. One-trick ponies are boring and uninteresting, and the game shouldn't require or encourage them.

Ashtagon

2013-01-29, 07:34 AM

That's the default, portable spyglass. I'm talking about a more elaborate, specially built item; the spyglass reference is just to underline that D&D has lens-crafting technology.

Lens crafting technology has existed since the 16th century (guesstimate). But I'm guessing that modern lens crafting technology is superior to what they had back then. Technology is a spectrum; it's not a yes/no thing.

Curmudgeon

2013-01-29, 08:15 AM

Well the Ghost Touch weapons in the DMG don't, but they're explicitly melee enhancements. Once you've got around that little wrinkle (there are several methods), the usual rule that enchantments on a bow are bestowed in it's ammunition then apply.
You appear to be confused, because there's no such rule. Instead, there are dozens of weapon special abilities which must each individually say that their particular magical property transfers from projectile weapon to ammunition.

Some examples:
Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the chaotic power upon their ammunition.
Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the lawful power upon their ammunition.
Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the bane quality upon their ammunition. I could go on, but I think you get the idea. Ghost Touch does not transfer anything to ammunition.

nedz

2013-01-29, 08:53 AM

It does require an spot-shoot-spot process rather than simultaneously spotting and shooting, but with a seeking weapon you don't have a miss-chance from not being able to see them as long as you can aim at the right square. If you're more than a mile out though, that's a perfectly acceptable difficulty. Especially given that they probably can't see you at all and certainly can't return fire.

The better way to do this involves a Cleric archer casting Chain of Eyes on the stealthiest person in the party, who then acts as a spotter. Now the archer can fire from full range without problems.

I did try to cover this in post #52.
Basically you need line of sight when shooting your bow — the rules don't really cover indirect fire.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-01-29, 09:18 AM

I did try to cover this in post #52.
Basically you need line of sight when shooting your bow — the rules don't really cover indirect fire.

Citation needed. If you can fire at a guy who has total concealment because of a smoke cloud or fog bank, one that has concealment by simply being too far away to spot is fair game too.

Hell, your inability to spot them doesn't even break line of sight or line of effect. Unless you're arguing for the curve of the planet to be an obstacle that's breaking LoE?

nedz

2013-01-29, 09:41 AM

Ranged Attacks

With a ranged weapon, you can shoot or throw at any target that is within the weapon’s maximum range and in line of sight. The maximum range for a thrown weapon is five range increments. For projectile weapons, it is ten range increments. Some ranged weapons have shorter maximum ranges, as specified in their descriptions.

I can't seem to find a definition of Line of Sight in the SRD — however
Line of sight ... if you can't see the target (...), you can't have line of sight to it even if you could draw an unblocked line between your space and the targets.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-01-29, 09:46 AM

I can't seem to find a definition of Line of Sight in the SRD — however

There's another one for the disfunctional rules thread then. You can't make ranged attacks at invisible creatures or creatures that are concealed behind smoke or fog since you don't have line of sight to them.

Or...... the ranged attack entry is supposed to say line of effect but some chowder head didn't realize LoS and LoE were two different things.

Heh, this even completely invalidates several ranged weapon enhancements and effects.

Melcar

2013-01-29, 09:51 AM

Make the archer a fighter, and give him/her all the weapon focus you can and all the weapon specialization you can. Give him ranged Weapon Mastery and and epic weapon focus and specialization.

That should give your archer a +10 to damage and a + 6 to hit. Combine that with a +4(str) composit long bow with a +5 magical enchantment, you have a 1d8+19 damage. bow of speed gives him 5 attacks at level 20. Combine that with deep wood sniper to get extra critical hit multyplier... you have a goy that could theoreticla deal 1d8+19 19-20 x 6 and you ahve 5 attacks...

That to me is a lot of damage!111

Eldariel

2013-01-29, 09:58 AM

There's another one for the disfunctional rules thread then. You can't make ranged attacks at invisible creatures or creatures that are concealed behind smoke or fog since you don't have line of sight to them.

Or...... the ranged attack entry is supposed to say line of effect but some chowder head didn't realize LoS and LoE were two different things.

Heh, this even completely invalidates several ranged weapon enhancements and effects.

You're perfectly within your rights to make an attack to a square tho. Doesn't matter what's in that square. You can attack air for all you care.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-01-29, 10:01 AM

You're perfectly within your rights to make an attack to a square tho. Doesn't matter what's in that square. You can attack air for all you care.

Not if it's in a fog-cloud. You don't get line of sight to anything concealed within the smoke. An archer on a foggy day may as well leave his bow at home.

Karoht

2013-01-29, 10:40 AM

So could it be said that a respectable UMD score and some wands/scrolls are a wise investment for dealing with said fog/snow/winds and such.
Sadly, the fogs are all conjuration spells as is sleet storm, and as such are not subject to a Dispel Magic to take care of them. However, Gust of Wind and Control Winds are useful to have access to, in the event that such battlefield controls are used against your party, or defensively for the enemies to hide in. Blow away their cover, put arrows/bolts/bullets in them.

Pathfinder has Fogcutting Lenses to see through Fog/Mist spells, Hunter's Eye (spell) can also see through such concealment on one target. 3.5 has Snowsight (spell) and Snowsight Goggles to see through Sleetstorm and similar spells.
True Strike, while a touch annoying to deal with due to action economy, allows you to ignore concealment for one attack. Though you still need to see/reveal the target for that to work, naturally.
For invisible attackers, Glitterdust and Invisibility Purge are both excellent. See Invisibility is good but it is personal, outright revealing the invisible to everyone tends to be more beneficial. Very much worth it to keep wands of all three of these spells around.
True Seeing scrolls are cheap enough and handy to have, a True Seeing Lantern tends to be a wise investment as well (True Seeing in a 30ft radius, pretty much your anti-illusion solution), and don't forget that illusions can mess up your shots just as much as an actual Wall of Stone or Stinking Cloud can.

I'm certain there are even more solutions which I am forgetting and/or am ignorant of.

Esgath

2013-01-29, 10:59 AM

There's another one for the disfunctional rules thread then. You can't make ranged attacks at invisible creatures or creatures that are concealed behind smoke or fog since you don't have line of sight to them.

Or...... the ranged attack entry is supposed to say line of effect but some chowder head didn't realize LoS and LoE were two different things.

Heh, this even completely invalidates several ranged weapon enhancements and effects.

Rules Compendium, page 16 makes it clear. You don't have to have line of sight to fire at a target.

Eldariel

2013-01-29, 11:18 AM

Not if it's in a fog-cloud. You don't get line of sight to anything concealed within the smoke. An archer on a foggy day may as well leave his bow at home.

Well, Concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#concealment) says:
"If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment)."

Ranged Attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#rangedAttacks) only prohibits attacking targets with total concealment, not squares. So there's no problem.

nedz

2013-01-29, 11:26 AM

Ranged Attacks require LoS to the Target — so you still need LoS to the square.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-01-29, 11:27 AM

Rules Compendium, page 16 makes it clear. You don't have to have line of sight to fire at a target.

Could we get a slightly more extensive citation? Maybe a quote?

DEMON

2013-01-29, 11:37 AM

Could we get a slightly more extensive citation? Maybe a quote?

From the Rules Compendium:

With a ranged weapon, you can shoot or throw at any targetthat is within the weapon’s maximum range (...) Line of sight isn’t required—you can fire at acreature that has concealment, hoping you hit your target

nedz

2013-01-29, 11:47 AM

In this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070710a) Rules of the Game article Skip claims LoE, but the WotC SRD still says LoS.

Ed: finally tracked down the last version of the PH Errata — no mention of this.

Eldariel

2013-01-29, 12:02 PM

Ranged Attacks require LoS to the Target — so you still need LoS to the square.

The term "target" is used only when you aim for entities; see spell descriptions for instance, AOEs don't even have a "Target"-descriptor. Aiming for a square does not have a "target" as such.

toapat

2013-01-29, 12:09 PM

One way to do damage is to take advantage of the fact that there are many things that give you dex to damage with crossbows. There's a targeteer fighter variant that does it, as well as two feats... the result is 2.5X dex to damage. It's easily to get pretty powerful from there.

There's also crit fishing, but it requires being cheesy. A Splitting Aptitude Great Crossbow combined with Hand Crossbow Focus, Roundabout Kick, Improved Critical, and Lightning Mace on a character with Blood in the Water can reload as a free action, crit on a 15-20, gets two bonus attacks with every critical threat, gets two bonus attacks with every critical confirmation, and gets a stacking +1 to hit and damage for every confirmed crit you make until you don't crit for a minute. Plus with full BAB at level 11 (assuming rapid shot) you're already firing 8 shots per round to get it started. Basically, you're a machine gun.

JaronK

you need an aptitude Bow to get 2.5dex to damage at range, it cant be done with crossbows because of the wording of the Targeteer ability (it requires that the weapon can use Str to Damage).

Overal, the best base for an archer is 1 targeteer/4 Distracting Attack ranger/3 Penetrating Attack Rogue/12 Sneak Attack classes (Rich's Divine trickster for instance can advance Sneak Attack and ranger, and upto third level ranger spells will give you even more ranged options), this lets you get ranged full sneak attacks, dealing 8d6 against non-immune, and 4d6 against anything else. While Ranger 17/Scout 3 is consistent, it doesnt actually live past level 20 or against a harsh DM.

DEMON

2013-01-29, 12:11 PM

I just posted a quote from the Rules Compendium, where it's clearly stated the line of sight requirement no longer applies.

Why are we still discussing this topic and arguing about semantics?

Phelix-Mu

2013-01-29, 01:15 PM

The line of sight discussion is very interesting.

Personally, it seems to me that actually pointing a bow in a direction and letting loose an arrow requires one to know absolutely nothing about what is on the receiving end of your shot. This is evident by 90% of historical bow use in medieval battles, in which ranks of archers aimed high over the enemy, arcing their arrows down somewhere among the ranks of the enemy. Was there someone over there to hit? Hopefully. If not, knock and draw again. Rinse, repeat.

Unlike a spell, which usually requires some kind of target or visible point of origin, an archer can just aim at some square 50' distant in direction x, even if that square is obscured by something. This is much more in line with reality in a way that really doesn't make archers that terribly more powerful. It also seems that they were changing the ranged attack rules to reflect this more closely. How this affects weapon-like spells that require a ranged attack roll is unclear to me. Like most of their rules clarifications, WotC rarely clarified anything without self-contradiction or failure to address the broader impact of rules changes.

As to the wider Spot skill implications, it seems to me that Spot does not define the totality of what is visible, nor does a Wisdom check. Some things should just be visible. Listed penalties to Spot should be used by a DM to calibrate the DC for checks against things that aren't readily visible. At a distance of half a mile, that orc army is visible. Period.

Now, weather, darkness, and concealment might alter this, but that orc army is not trying to hide, so seeing it shouldn't require a Spot check. Frankly, I just flat out ignore the rather stupid tables appearing in the PHB about visibility and distance. Definitely more of a place for common sense, not to mention rule of cool when it comes to elves and other races that are supposed to have superior vision (not +20' vision range).

Tvtyrant

2013-01-29, 03:13 PM

Phelix-Mu

2013-01-29, 03:40 PM

See what archers really need is the ability to shoot through a bunch of squares and have it be a line of effect with a reflex save instead of against AC. That would work for blind shooting much better, since you are firing through the squares instead of at someone.

By DM ruling, if the archer is targeting the square directly in front of him 50' away, and there is someone that is in the square 40' away same direction, then the archer probably should have a good chance of hitting the person in the way, even if the archer can't see the person in the way. Ergo, aim behind where you think someone is standing.

I think by RAW the person in the way only imposes a -4 penalty to hit the other person, but this is under the poorly-modeled 3.x system of deviated shots and unintentional hits in combat. In a more realistic system, declaring a specific target or square to be your target should not remove the chance of accidentally hitting someone or something else. There are a number of issues that come to mind involving magic missile or ranged touch spells and immediate action teleporting.

toapat

2013-01-29, 03:50 PM

By DM ruling, if the archer is targeting the square directly in front of him 50' away, and there is someone that is in the square 40' away same direction, then the archer probably should have a good chance of hitting the person in the way, even if the archer can't see the person in the way. Ergo, aim behind where you think someone is standing.

I think by RAW the person in the way only imposes a -4 penalty to hit the other person, but this is under the poorly-modeled 3.x system of deviated shots and unintentional hits in combat. In a more realistic system, declaring a specific target or square to be your target should not remove the chance of accidentally hitting someone or something else. There are a number of issues that come to mind involving magic missile or ranged touch spells and immediate action teleporting.

i think you are misinterpreting what Tyrant means, which is basically to have archery work like how IPS works in DDO, which is to turn arrows from single hit projectiles into High-Energy Penetrating rounds

nedz

2013-01-29, 03:58 PM

Tvtyrant

2013-01-29, 03:59 PM

i think you are misinterpreting what Tyrant means, which is basically to have archery work like how IPS works in DDO, which is to turn arrows from single hit projectiles into High-Energy Penetrating rounds

Basically this. Not particularly realistic, but it would work way better in practice IMO.

Play a Sorcerer, cast Lightning bolt.

Actually War-Hulk does have an option for doing this, well two actually:
Sweeping Boulder and Massive Sweeping Boulder — but you have to throw rocks.

That is kind of beside the point. Arguing that someone who wants options should play an upper tier class doesn't solve the problems faced by the lower tier classes. And besides, sorcerers do not get iteratives :P

Phelix-Mu

2013-01-29, 04:09 PM

i think you are misinterpreting what Tyrant means, which is basically to have archery work like how IPS works in DDO, which is to turn arrows from single hit projectiles into High-Energy Penetrating rounds

Nah, I knew what he meant, which I thought was a little wishful, but I was pointing out that a targeted physical attack can realistically hit someone besides the actual target, a la the misdirected/intercepted arrow or the dodged axe blow.

I do like abilities that allow a specific arrow to hit more than one target, but turning it into some kind of quasi-AoE is kind of anti-archer flavor. Skiprocks are cool, bombardment spell with a sling (or equivalent archer flavor) is excessive.

Phaederkiel

2013-01-29, 04:27 PM

just for the original line of the thread:

there is a feat called crossbow sniper, which allows you to sneak up to 60 ft instead of 30ft, making the precision damage route much better.
Then you stack some Precision based classes (sneak fighter, rogue, assasin, Factotum if the obvious reading is used, etc), get a good ini modifier and try to sneak any opponent to death during the first round.

For opponents farther away, you use the aforementioned Sniper shot.

for the Factotum:
I played this character once. Sniper shot and then 10d6 on a melfs.
10d6 sounds like a lot, but only if you have iteratives. If you snipe mr. Badguy, you have to pray that he has less than 30 hp, or his mooks will have a good chance to save him. Or the DM makes him a barbarian, that spoilsport.

What is so good about the factotum is int to hide and ini, and knowledge devotion. My factotum nowadays sneaks only in very special situations and preferes to attack with insightful strike.

ehm...try to get your dm to allow you to use the concentration maneuvers is probably another okayish way for a sniper.

Ramza00

2013-01-29, 04:37 PM

Inspire Courage is another very valuable source of bonus damage. Either vanilla IC or Dragonfire flavor.

I second that.

Having a bard ally or a bard follower with dragonfire inspiration helps a lot.

At level 6

Human Bard with 1 flaw
6 levels in bard.

Feats
1 Dragontouched (gives you dragonblood subtype and treats your sorcerer level for feats as your char level)
1 (flaw) Draconic Heritage (make your dragonblood hertiage a sonic based dragon, requires sorcerer level 1st thus you need Dragontouched.)
1 (flaw) Dragonfire Inspiration, now your can make your inspire courage do sonic damage instead of +X to attack and defense. Stop singing the first inspire courage and start a new song and these abilities will stack.
3 Song of the Heart (adds +1 to inspire courage)
6 Words of Creation (doubles your base inspire courage, thus your +1 becomes +2 at level 6 and at level 8 your +2 becomes a +4)

Inspire Courage +1 Base
Words of Creation doubles base to +2
Song of the Heart Feat adds +1 (+3 total)
Badge of Valor adds +1 (+4 total)
Masterwork Horn adds +1 to attack and damage no will save or fear bonuses (+5 total)

First round you make your allies arrows do an additional +5d6 sonic damage, second round you start the second song and now your allies arrows are +5 attack and +5d6+5 sonic damage.

At level 8 your base inspire courage increases to +2 and your words of creation increases to +7, thus you are now adding +7d6 sonic damage to your allies attacks.

---------

At level 6 your archer should be shooting at least 3 arrows (2 from BAB, 1 from Rapid Shot) thus you are increasing your archer's damage by 15d6 per round.

At level 8 it is very likely your archer should be shooting at least 4 arrows (2 form BAB, 1 from Rapid Shot, 1 from a Haste Effect) thus you are increasing your archer's damage by 28d6 per round.

DEMON

2013-01-29, 05:05 PM

I do like abilities that allow a specific arrow to hit more than one target, but turning it into some kind of quasi-AoE is kind of anti-archer flavor. Skiprocks are cool, bombardment spell with a sling (or equivalent archer flavor) is excessive.

Actually I wouldn't mind some high level archery abilities allowing for an AoE attack or some other cool effect without the need to pack several gazillions spell storing arrows or dipping Arcane Archer or some such.

Melee finally got some love with the release of ToB, but the archery love, as far as AoE effects go, ends with the exploding arrows and the Penetrating Shot (which sucks monkey balls big time, unless I'm missing something).

Edit: Actually it's not such a bad idea, coming up with some cute high level abilities an archer could have. Perhaps in the form of a tactical feat with a high BAB req, or a few archery feats (though I don't like this approach as it forces you to invest heavily into particular style, often requiring feats that are not synergistic with what you're supposed to do) or something. Any ideas, guys?

ArcturusV

2013-01-29, 11:12 PM

Rather than AoE I'd like to see archery get disables myself. I see that more as the key disadvantage to Archery combat compared to anything else.

Melee Fighter? You can neutralize a target with a ton of combat maneuvers, or deal straight damage if you wish.

Archery Fighter? All you can do is straight damage, at less damage than the Melee Fighter, with a lot more ways to be neutralized and generally a higher "Feat Tax".

I don't think AoE is the answer really. It'd be nice, sure. But probably the wrong way to go. Imagine instead if you had archery skills like I see in a lot of other sources. Something like: Any shot which is readied to interrupt spell casting doubles or triples the Concentration DC check to avoid losing the spell. Being able to hobble targets by hitting them in vulnerable spots on the leg. Rendering a hand useless by striking the arm perfectly with an arrow to sever some of the tendons.

These are all fairly typical "Archer Ideals", that I usually don't see in DnD. And aren't represented mechanically to the best of my knowledge. And could make Archery a lot more interesting and even viable.

Phelix-Mu

2013-01-29, 11:33 PM

Rather than AoE I'd like to see archery get disables myself. I see that more as the key disadvantage to Archery combat compared to anything else.

Melee Fighter? You can neutralize a target with a ton of combat maneuvers, or deal straight damage if you wish.

Archery Fighter? All you can do is straight damage, at less damage than the Melee Fighter, with a lot more ways to be neutralized and generally a higher "Feat Tax".

I don't think AoE is the answer really. It'd be nice, sure. But probably the wrong way to go. Imagine instead if you had archery skills like I see in a lot of other sources. Something like: Any shot which is readied to interrupt spell casting doubles or triples the Concentration DC check to avoid losing the spell. Being able to hobble targets by hitting them in vulnerable spots on the leg. Rendering a hand useless by striking the arm perfectly with an arrow to sever some of the tendons.

All of this is cool. Totally unsupported in the rules, barring some strange DM mod to Ranged Pin/Disarm/etc line to make them worth the feats (supposing some kind of archer actually still has unspent feats).

Did I mention "Three Arrows for the King?" It's out there on the interwebz, and has some cool ideas for making archery better. 3.0 and third party, sadly. Some of the ideas therein seem remarkably unbalanced, but cool nonetheless. Definitely something to toss at your DM if s/he wants to facilitate more archer coolness with additional rule sources.

ArcturusV

2013-01-29, 11:42 PM

Gotterdammerung

2013-01-29, 11:50 PM

Never seen the ranged pin/disarm feat(s). So couldn't say. Just what I HAVE seen, I've not really seen any options along the line. I presume it's because WotC assumes that Ranged already is really powerful because it's "Safe", as someone else in this topic pointed out. Though "safe" is subjective when you are dealing with enemies who can generally close the distance in a turn, maybe two, when you're talking about standard engagement ranges I see in games. Maybe if I was running a game where we were all in open plains or scrublands, etc, with a lack of terrain or possible concealment where sight alone determines range of engagement.

The strongest form of ranged disarming comes from the exotic weapon master prestige class from the complete warrior. The other forms are too restrictive to be reliably functional.

I also don't agree that melee is automatically stronger than archery in terms of damage. Optimized archery can rival any melee's dmg and often do it more consistently and more reliably.

Venger

2013-01-29, 11:58 PM

Never seen the ranged pin/disarm feat(s)

they're on page 103/104 of complete warrior

their prereqs are the same, dex 15, PBS, precise shot, and BA 5

you pick 1 ranged weapon and can do the relevant maneuver with it. within 30 feet.

with pin though, target needs to be within 5 feet of something to pin them to and has to be wearing something that you can pin them to it with (just pinning them in the hand with an arrow is out for some reason) you roll grapple but the target only needs to hit DC 15 with str check or escape artist as a standard, it doesn't work with imp grapple (so you don't gain the +4 bonus)

there's a reason you haven't heard of these

Phelix-Mu

2013-01-30, 12:09 AM

they're on page 103/104 of complete warrior

there's a reason you haven't heard of these

Indeed, they were so terrible that they pretty much are just terrible. Terribly terrible. Muy terrible. Le plus grand terrible. Hidoi.

Another interesting thing to consider is Manyshot v Rapid Shot. I find Improved Rapid Shot to be nice, but Manyshot only good if you are multiclassing or prestiging. Classic ranger archer or straight fighter archer seems to gain more from Rapid Shot, although a fighter can probably have enough feats to also get Greater Manyshot, a much better feat than Manyshot.

Don't have a huge amount of experience using Manyshot personally, but it sees the most use among my players as a skirmish enabler, for which it is nice, but not so key to a ranger build. Sad, since rangers get it for free.

ArcturusV

2013-01-30, 12:20 AM

I don't run archers much either. But this isn't mechanical so much as I always liked the flavor of throwers better. I have more fun with the image of a guy who throws a javelin like a roman legionnaire, or throwing around hatchets like David Crockett. The few times I have run Archers have told me Fighters made better archers than Rangers. Fighter/Low Level Wizard usually for some buffs to avoid simple stuff. Most of the Archery Feats felt more like desperate picks to keep my damage on part with Melee rather than gaining any ground on other characters. And I had to invest all my feats just to do pure damage, whereas the Charger Fighter was doing more damage, and had some feats to spare for random stuff like Grappling and Tripping if they wanted.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-01-30, 12:36 AM

Ranged pin isn't too bad when you've got a valid target. If you sink an entire full attack into it he's got to take multiple turns getting unstuck while you pepper him with arrows and stick him again faster than he can unstick.

It gets a bit gruesome if you can get a DM to approve the interaction between ranged pin and penetrating strike. Then you -can- pin a guy by putting an arrow through his arm.

DEMON

2013-01-30, 07:18 PM

The Pin/Sunder/Disarm would be a perfect choice for a tactical feat. One by one, they are just too weak and narrow in scope to be worth a feat slot, even though they offer a options to archery. Especially considering how feat-starved the play style is in the first place.

But if you were to obtain all of these with a single feat gaining three option for whenever you might need one of them, it might just be worth it.

Another tactical feat could cover the AoEs (30-60 ft line, 5-10 ft radius...).

And the one that would be the best (IMO) would be a called shot Tactical feat, allowing you to aim at your enemy's feet to halve their movement rate, their head to... I don't know... stagger them for a round, and their hands to give them a penalty to STR and DEX, or force them to drop whatever they are holding in their hands or something.

I think this asks for a thread in the homebrew section of the forum.

toapat

2013-01-30, 08:08 PM

archery needs an entire supplemental book to itself to fix its problems.

DEMON

2013-01-30, 08:23 PM

archery needs an entire supplemental book to itself to fix its problems.

What doesn't, though? :smallwink: In all seriousness, I don't really think archery is somehow broken beyond repair. There are issues with other fighting styles as well (except maybe THF, that is by far the strongest fighting style in 3.5).

But a little more support for the archery (whether bow- or crossbow-based) would certainly help things on this front.

toapat

2013-01-30, 08:29 PM

well, of the 3 combat styles, only 1.25 of those are good, being that Two Handers out of the box trounce everything. Dual Wielding eats feats for little return, while Archery can get a huge return, but ravages your feats. Throwing has to be mentioned because you have builds for throwing that can do things like remove people from the local solar system, or use small rocks such as jupiter, as throwing weapons.

DEMON

2013-01-30, 08:44 PM

well, of the 3 combat styles, only 1.25 of those are good, being that Two Handers out of the box trounce everything.

This is exactly the root of the problem. It's not like archery has gotten the short end of the stick, the whole system was kind of poorly implemented.

Main problem of this fighting style is the extreme feat dependency required for even the basic archery (on the other hand, you can still shoot a bow just fine w/o these feats, as opposed to going the 2WF route, but that's another story). Then come the other issues like the range of precision damage vs. average speed of characters, low damage output vs. damage reduction and so on. On the other other hand, there are also upsides to shooting at someone instead of attacking him in the melee so, as you have mentioned as well, you get something for your (heavy) investment if you want to be a dedicated archer.

Thus to solve the issue complete one would probably have to rework the combat styles from the scratch balancing the pros and cons and expected/required investments to each of the main combat styles to have them somehow balanced... and then comes the spellcasting and we're back to square one, but that's a different story, kids :smallsmile:

Lans

2013-01-30, 08:55 PM

When it comes to throwing, boomerang dazing is pretty good.

THF can let you kill one enemy if they aren't clumped together. If you used shocktrooper your now in a perilous position.

Archery might let you kill 1 and damage another.

Boomerangs let you daze up to 9 enemies that aren't standing next to each other

Dsurion

2013-01-31, 11:09 AM

DEMON

2013-01-31, 11:14 AM

I wouldn't even make it a Tactical Feat. Just let it be part of archery standard combat maneuvers.

Sunder and Disarm could work like that perhaps, but the pinning effect is a bit unconventional in how it works and what it does. But as a standalone effect I don't think it is worth a feat.

All in all not a bad idea by any means, allowing the disarms and sunders with a ranged attacks.

Valdis

2013-02-01, 03:54 AM

As already mentioned.. I would get a "Splitting" weapon, it doubles your attacks.

Any missile fired from a splitting weapon, or an arrow or bolt
enchanted with the splitting ability, breaks into two identical
missiles before striking the intended target.
Description: V-shaped engravings adorn a splitting weapon
or splitting ammunition.
Activation: The splitting ability of a ranged weapon (must
be a bow, crossbow, arrow, or bolt) only functions if its wielder
has the Precise Shot feat.
Effect: Any arrow or bolt fired from a splitting weapon
magically splits into two missiles in mid-flight. Both missiles are
identical, sharing the nonsplitting properties of the original missile;
for example, a +1 splitting arrow splits into two +1 arrows in
mid-flight. Both missiles strike the same target. Make a separate
attack roll for each missile using the same attack bonus.
Aura/Caster Level: Moderate conjuration (creation); CL 7th.
Construction: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Precise Shot,
arrowsplit, +9,000 gp, +720 XP, +18 days.
Weight: —.
Price: +3 bonus.

Gotterdammerung

2013-02-01, 06:49 AM

A fun archery build

Jermlaine Spell to Power Erudite/ Thrall herd using a Psychic Skillful Splitting Bow

Typical archery feats + darkstalker feat+ knowledge devotion feat

combine your access to arcane spells as powers + psionic powers to reach the pinnacle of buffed to hits.

Use compression to become Fine size (also use crystal power to let your thralls join in the fly sized fun) big to hit bonuses from size

Extremely high dex

Woodland archery - accuracy increase on misses

Psychic enhancement giving u a +5 to hit

Knowledge devotion giving accuracy and dmg

Basically some of the highest to hits in the game.

Thrall 1- Strong heart hafling metamagic reducer wizard.
Combo- invisible spell, earth spell, heighten, energy substitution(fire), energy admixture(fire), extend, Blistering spell, empower spell, sanctum spell and searing spell with Flame arrow. (might seem like a lot of feats 13 total for the combo but easily done with flaws and bonus metamagic feats from classes (11 of the 13 needed are metamagics lol. 8 from levels +2 from flaws means you only need to scrounge up 3 bonus feats from classes so definitely easy.)

Use class 4 node magic with metanode spell for free metamagics.

Doesn't adventure with hero, just delivers magma arrows magically when needed.

Optional, if you can get your DM to agree to make a duplicate of the MIC's Vest of the Master Evoker that works on Transmutation spells instead, This new item "Vest of the Master Transmuter" will fit extremely well with the combo. For fun, lets say we have a nice GM who says yes.

Essentially this combo turns flame arrow into lava arrow. you get 4 dmg per lvl of the spell. Heighten, sanctum, and earth spell allow you to cast flame arrow as a 12th lvl spell. energy admixture doubles this dmg, and then empower increases it further. Fire resistance will not protect u from this dmg. This dmg has no SR. And fire immunity will only half the dmg. The spell does not give away your position because the flames are invisible from invisible spell.

Thrall 2- Jermlaine cleric any cleric build is fine
Adventures with main character, provides maximized fell the greatest foe and casting support.
Important feats- maximize (or item rod) and darkstalker

Total:
Well you and your cleric are the size of a fly and have hide checks through the frickin roof.

Your to hits are ungodly and with haste you fire 20 arrows a round. Hustle lets you have an extra move to re-hide after your sniping full round. You will likely be firing against mostly flat-footed AC's.

Against a fire immune target with high SR each arrow will do
1 point of dmg + 72 fire dmg + (2d6*150%)/2 fire dmg.

That is around 1460 fire dmg per round minimum dmg.

Against a normal creature with high SR but no fire immunity

1 point of dmg + 144 fire dmg + (2d6*150%) fire dmg

That is around 2940 fire dmg per round minimum dmg.

Against a creature with fire vulnerability and high SR

1 point of dmg + 192 fire dmg + (2d6*200%) fire dmg

around 3920 fire dmg per round minimum dmg.

Against a low or no SR target add in 6 dmg per shot (120 for full round) per size category larger than fine the target is.

This maxes out at 54 dmg per shot against a colossal+ target (1080 extra dmg for a full round against colossal+ target).

This dmg has SR and is from maximized fell the greatest foe.

Knowledge devotion will add in 1-5 dmg per arrow (20 to 100 extra dmg per round)

Psychic enhancement will add the same dmg as knowledge devotion depending on power point reserve 1-5 (20-100)

I love this idea because its so funny to think of this ugly little dude the size of a fly shooting these tiny needles into someone and then they immolate for seemingly no reason, and they likely have no idea WTH just happened.

The numbers are lower if the magic item isnt cleared and if the mage is forced to adventure with you instead of using his spells to deliver batches of magma arrows from his homebase when needed.

But even in that case, the numbers are still surprisingly impressive.