An attempt to make casting a bit more interesting! (3.5) (PEACH)

[Plato Play-Doh]

Hi, I've been working on a few changes to spellcasting classes, and I've been lurking here for a while, so I thought this would be the perfect place to get feedback. It should (I hope) make casting make a bit more sense, and add some variety to the classes.

Cleric/Paladin: Clerics and Paladins gain the following class feature:

Beseech Immortal (Su): As an immediate action, a Cleric or Paladin or may request a favor from his divine patron. This favor can be anything from bringing rainclouds to a desert village to saving the Cleric or Paladin from a deadly sword swing, and the exact manner in which it manifests is up to the DM. It is, however, incapable of directly causing harm to any creature: the miracle is one of divine providence, not one of divine violence.

Once the miracle has been performed, the Cleric or Paladin may not use this ability again until he or she has performed a favor for his or her patron in keeping with the magnitude of the miracle requested. While the deflection of a fatal sword swing may require only a few minutes of extra prayer the next morning (depending on the level of the PC: the lesser a deities' servants, the more minor the miracles they may request, typically), a miracle such as the staying of a volcanic eruption might require a great quest be undertaken, or a great service performed. The exact nature of the recompense required is divinely communicated to the Cleric or Paladin soon after the miracle has been performed.

This ability may not be used more than once each day, even in the case of the smallest miracles.

Druid: No limit on spells/day. They gain the following class feature:
Leyline Knowedge (Ex): At 1st level, a Druid selects a type of environment from the following list: arctic, desert, forest, jungle, mountain, or swamp. A Druid has a mastery of the magic within his chosen terrain. While he may cast his spells normally in any environment, he may only cast spells of his highest available spell level when in his chosen environment.

When Wildshaping into animal forms not native to his environment, a Druid treats his Hit Dice as if it were 5 lower than his Druid level.

Ranger: Changes as Druid, but only come into effect when they would normally receive spellcasting ability. At 4th level, a ranger must choose whether to continue with Favored Enemies or to take up Favored Environments (from Unearthed Arcana),with their favored environment the one that was chosen with the Leyline Knowledge class feature. Must choose Favored Environments to receive spells or Leyline Knowledge, but gain Aspect of Nature upon gaining their second favored enemy.

Psionic: No changes.

Sorcerer: Con based. Casting requires the sorcerer to make a concentration check with a DC equal to 10+spell level*2 in order to cast, and failure will require that the sorcerer make a fortitude save with the same DC to avoid being fatigued. The second time a sorcerer fails this save, it is exhausted. The third time, it is knocked unconscious. Good saves Will and Fortitude. Sorcerer spells are actually at-will spell-like abilities, except that they still have an xp component if the base spell has one, and they cannot benefit from metamagic feats.


Wizard: Only know 0th level spells at 1st level. No specialization. Does not gain spells when leveling up. Instead, must write into spellbook/take others’ spellbooks. No spell memorization/limit on spells per day. Must be looking at the correct page of spellbook (turning to it is a standard action) and make a spellcraft check with a DC of 10+3(spell level+1) to cast a spell. A natural 20 does not allow automatic success on this check. Failing the check by 10 or more will result in the Wizard being dealt 3(spell level +1)d4 constitution damage, or (spell level +1)d4 if the wizard also has it as a spell-like ability. This check also determines the DC for saves against the spell, which is Spellcraft check result + spell level. May cast w/out spellbook page by spending 1 hour per spell level studying a spell (max memorized spells=int modifier). When doing so, make spellcraft check here, with +10 to DC. You do not know the result until you try to cast it, at which point any negative effects of failing the check will come into effect.

Additionally, Summon Monster spells no longer exist (alternatively, planar binding and such no longer exist. I just think that they are two different systems for the same thing, so they shouldn't both be in effect at the same time).
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!

[Zman]

My honest opinion, I don't like it.

You are making Wizards jump through a ton of hoops, and yet not really reducing their power level at all. Basically is just takes them much longer and makes adventuring days much longer. You have a ton of checks, and a lot more record keeping.

Sorcerers have now become something else, some form of Gish, yet not as any spell casting severely hurts them. Spell Level +1 D4 Damage so casting two level one spells has a good chance of taking out a Sorcerer? Can't say I like the odd multiclass restriction either.

Psionics really don't get nerfed much.

Druids and Rangers are now limited outside fo their favored environment. I mean Rangers casting sucks enough, do they really need more restrictions? Druids are still powerhouses.

Paladin spellcasting stays the same, when it isn't great from the start. Give the Battle Blessing at least.

Cleric stays just as powerful, but gets another more powerful ability?


If you are interested I've been working on my own line of fixes for Magic and the classes. See my homebrew signature.


Most notable...

Buying Spells is more costly for Wizards, they only receive one spell per level for free.

Biggest offender spells have been fixed.

Spellcasting deals spell level in nonlethal damage to the caster.

Clerics are now Spontaneous casters that rely on Domains more.

Paladins, and rangers are now spontaneous casters that effectively have battle blessing and earlier spellcasting.

Druids must choose what abilities will be good/medium/poor and are spontaneous casters.

Also removed 9th level spells from normal 20 level play.

Edit: I'm also looking at limiting Wizard Spell Schools for 6th and 8th level spells.

[Plato Play-Doh]

Yeah, it certainly is more of a complex system. My changes to the Wizard were mainly because I never thought Vancian spellcasting made much sense there, considering that they are more academic-types (thus actually having to learn the spell). Why they forget a spell after casting it is beyond me! It should require expertise (thus the checks) and drawbacks for failure (thus the damage for failing a spell by 10 or more).

I changed the Sorcerers the way I did because I thought of them as having their spellcasting innately, so having to channel it by taking damage seemed to make sense to me. I think I'll replace that with the spell level nonlethal damage system that you devised,with your permission, though I don't think that will do much at higher levels (which is why I made the damage the way I did). Additionally, I gave them more access to weapons and higher HP because I figured that they hadn't devoted their lives to study to control their abilities like Wizards have, so they would be more likely to be hands-on warriors a bit more. The multiclass is because it's not an acquired ability, it's an innate talent (though I suppose they could gain it through other means, so I'll take that restriction away).

Yeah, I'm pretty much okay with how psionics works.

For Druids, I felt that they ought to be somewhat competent on their own, but where they shine is in their favored environment, where the power of nature is at their disposal. Thus, Druids are meant to be powerhouses within their own domain. I've always thought that casting was kind of a secondary things for the primarily martial Rangers, and I gave them the (admittedly inadequate) Aspect of Nature to give them an option to supplement their bow or blade wielding should they choose to forgo magic.

I didn't have much of a change to make to Paladins from a versimilitude/having a logical system perspective, which is the primary focus here. Also, I see them (like Rangers) to have their spellcasting as more of a secondary ability anyway.

I thought that it would make sense for even low-level Clerics to be able to request a miracle from their deity if it was for a cause the deity would approve of. Plus, they are now pretty much the only ones (other than paladins) who have to prepare spells ahead of time, since I thought having to get that power transferred from their deity to them ahead of time through prayer made since, realism-wise. They deserve an (extremely limited) bonus, especially one that will let them pray for a miracle at something like the Battle of Helm's Deep, when all it's really going to do is advance the plot w/out any major repercussions.

Additionally, I wasn't necessarily trying to nerf, but rather to make it easier to suspend disbelief. I think that spellcasting should be significantly more powerful than mundane battle, that's why it's magic. However, it should require much more effort and expertise, and substantial drawbacks and limitations as well, which is what I was trying to convey through these rules changes. Thank you for the feedback!

[Zman]

To each his own, do what you feel is right and see how it works. I only offer where my line of thinking takes me. And go ahead, I think I saw someone else do something similar as their magic fix. And I believe Jarron K uses some for of school limiting as his Magic Fix. Vancian Casting certainly isn't perfect, that is why I made Wizards the only non Spontaneous Caster to give them a studious unique feel while dropping the tier of the other T1 Casters. And did my best to curb the Wizards power a bit because hands down Wizards have the Power to break the game at just about any level.

[The LOBster]

Yeah, I'm not too fond of how you tried to nerf some of the T1 classes, but just made them more difficult to play without really removing powers - or even giving them new powers.

Personally, the best way to really fix the CoWoDzilla problem is to houserule out the spells that break the game (save or suck or save or die spells and any other known game breakers) or houserule that they can't self-buff with the spells that would allow them to sneak and trapfind better than a rogue, move faster than a monk, and tank better than a fighter, paladin or barbarian - they'd only be able to buff their allies. Basically, try to bring them (and Bards) down to t4 by giving them each a niche.

[bobthe6th]

Way to make casting more interesting: make HP function as a moral and physical thing. Then have spells that SoD/L deal some damage if the opponent fails a save. Sleep for instance would deal 1d6/CL non lethal damage in a burst.

Another idea would be to make saves into AC. just add 10 to a characters save, and have the caster roll a check modified by (normal DC-10). So a 4th level fighter with a +5 reflex save is in the area of a fireball cast by a 5th level wizard(has a 16 int and a spell focus in envocation), so the wizard rolls a 1d20+7 versus AC 15. If the attack misses, half damage. If it hits, full damage. For more then one target, roll once and compare to all saves.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Cleric: Once per year, may plead with deity as a standard action for a miracle (as the 9th level spell). To do this, must make a wisdom check with a DC of 30 to which you add your Cleric class level and ½ of your Paladin class level.

Meh. This loses a lot considering it replicates a spell, isn't reliable until at least a good way towards the point where you could cast that spell anyway, and is only once a year. Seems a needless bit of ruling for little actual gain in terms of either mechanics or flavor.


Druid: No limit on spells/day. Must be near natural entities (trees, wolves, elementals and the like) to cast (may change based on type of druid). Druids have the favored environment class feature as presented in Unearthed Arcana, and may only cast spells there. They may not use spells that are related to environments other than their favored environment(s). The environments in which the Trackless Step and Woodland Stride class features function in are the Druid’s favored environments. Proficient with longspear. Once per year, Druids may plead with nature as a standard action to allow them to cast any druid spell of any level. To do this, they must succeed on a Wild Empathy check with a DC of 3(spell level+1).


...so at-will spells in your favored environment? The Druid has just become super overpowered in his favorite environment, and effectively just a shape-changing Fighter in all others. This isn't much fun for the Druid player: you won't see many Druids in campaigns that change environment much, but they'll become horribly overpowered in single-environment campaigns.

Further, once-per-year class features are...well...forgettable. You use it once, either succeed or fail, and never touch the ability again, likely for the whole campaign. Not good design, especially when it would let you use a 9th level spell to just outright end an encounter far before when you'd get 9th level spells.

This Druid is either insanely good, or not really fun to play, as you'll look at the bulk of your abilities and realize you can't use them. You need a complete overhaul of this mechanic.


Psionic: No changes, except that manifester level checks are replaced with psicraft checks.

What is the rational for making them better at manifester level checks? Did Psionics really need this?


Sorcerer: Con based. Casting deals (spell level+1)d4 damage per round (or per action) of casting. Must make a concentration check to cast any spell through the damage. A d8 hit die, not a d4. No limit on spells per day. No Summon Monster. Must trap/call to get minions from another plane. Light armor does not add to arcane spell failure chance. Proficient with light armor. Proficient with 1 martial weapon of choice. Good saves Will and Fortitude. Sorcerer spells are actually at-will spell-like abilities, except that they still have an xp component if the base spell has one, and they cannot benefit from metamagic feats.


Alright. I think you'll find Sorcerer's abusing Vampiric Touch to regain 10d6 hit points from a 3rd level spell slot. Anyway, overall it's not a mechanic I'm that fond of either, as hit point damage is meaningless until you hit 0, at which point you go from full functionality to no functionality. Thus, hp-based casting encourages going nova during all encounters: eating 10d4 damage per round to spam 9th level spells until everyone is dead and then healing up becomes the best plan, all the time, every encounter, until you run out of healing. And healing (and ways of getting fast healing) are cheap. Suddenly the Sorcerer can always be at full functionality, despite casting all his most powerful spells to end all combat and/or puzzles.

This does, however, effectively gimp him before he has access to cheap healing or truckloads of hit points. You're effectively buffed a late-game, party-supported Sorcerer (where he didn't need buffs) and nerfed his rather abysmal early levels (pre-6 or so). :smallfrown:


Wizard: Only know 0th level spells at 1st level. No specialization. Does not gain spells when leveling up. Instead, must write into spellbook/take others’ spellbooks. No spell memorization/limit on spells per day. Must be looking at the correct page of spellbook (turning to it is a standard action) and make a spellcraft check with a DC of 10+3(spell level+1) to cast a spell. A natural 20 does not allow automatic success on this check. Failing the check by 10 or more will result in the Wizard being dealt 3(spell level +1)d4 constitution damage, or (spell level +1)d4 if the wizard also has it as a spell-like ability. This check also determines the DC for saves against the spell, which is Spellcraft check result + spell level. May cast w/out spellbook page by spending 1 hour per spell level studying a spell (max memorized spells=int modifier). When doing so, make spellcraft check here, with +10 to DC. You do not know the result until you try to cast it, at which point any negative effects of failing the check will come into effect. Use check made during memorization, not on the spot, when casting spells. Must trap/call to get minions from another plane. All caster level checks are replaced with the spellcraft checks made to cast a spell, or by a separate spellcraft check if not related to a specific spell.

So, in exchange for min-maxing Spellcraft to high heaven, I get unlimited spells at an astronomical DC that basically nothing can ever pass. That said, I have to use a standard action every time I want to switch spells beyond the 10 or so I have memorized.

Of course, if I'm unlucky, I may just instantly kill my character. That's always fun, right? I love having a risk of death from using the features that are the reason I picked this class in the first place. :smalltongue:

In conclusion, this system is overly complex, inherently broken, and just makes casting a case of min-maxing Spellcraft and memorizing the 10 or so most powerful spells I know, so I can fire-and-forget with encounter-ending power all day long, using my standard action to find utility spells as I need them.


*****

Closing Thoughts: I appreciate the desire to make casting more interesting. That said, none of your attempts really make anything better: most of your attempts render the class in question even MORE overpowered in certain circumstances (favored environment, ability to get easy healing from items/spells/party members, min-maxing Spellcraft and good spell memorization) or render the class in question utterly useless (non-favored environment loss of spells, casting into unconsciousness and worthless low levels, or outright killing yourself by spell casting).

These "fixes" to boring casting are mechanically broken and unbalanced, and basically need to be completely revised. In that vein, I'll ask this question: What about casting doesn't make sense to you? Further, how much are you willing to change the system to make things work?

With those questions answered, we can attempt a more mechanically simple, elegant, and balanced approach to making casting more interesting. I'd be happy to help: I love mechanical design. :smallbiggrin:

[Plato Play-Doh]

Zman: Thanks!

The LOBster: Nerfing wasn't really my intent in this. It was (partially) to make it more fitting to the way I think spellcasting ought to work (really powerful, but takes a lot of effort and takes a lot out of you), and (partially) to make it so that each spellcasting class was unique, with a totally different feel (though I probably didn't do all that great of a job on that, honestly). I'm new to homebrewing, so I'm really not expecting that any of this is all that great, unless there is a massive amount of tweaking involved.

bobthe6th: That 1st idea sounds really cool, though, regarding the 2nd, I like the idea of having a luck factor in saves, which are more related to personal skill than, say, a suit of plate armor.

Djinn_in_Tonic:The miracle was kind of intended to be a dramatic thing that even a low-level cleric could accomplish, which could add greatly to more story-driven aspects of the game without creating an imbalance. Same with the druid's once a year thing. Replacing caster/manifester level checks was to give the idea that even two 5th level wizards aren't necessarily going to have the same power level (one of them took a level in fighter where they took spellcraft as a cross-class skill), so that should be reflected in the things that require caster level checks. I'm wondering if my change to sorcerers (the idea for which I got from Zman) might have made the sorcerers any better? Admittedly, I wasn't really making this stuff with min-maxers in mind, since the group I play with tends to put RP over power, so they would, say, take a druid like this in an adventure spanning multiple environments, because a: they wanted to roleplay a druid, and b: only being able to cast within their favored environment could lead to interesting roleplaying opportunities. Obviously, this is not the case with all groups, and I would love some advice on making this system translate better into other groups!

Thank you everyone for all the feedback!

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The miracle was kind of intended to be a dramatic thing that even a low-level cleric could accomplish, which could add greatly to more story-driven aspects of the game without creating an imbalance.

A once-per-year effect that might quite likely fail doesn't add to the story-based aspects of a game though: it's not especially flavorful. It's just an effective free casting of miracle at a low level.

If you want story-driven game aspects, consider instead allowing a Cleric or Paladin to petition a deity for a miracle, in exchange for performing a great task in service of that deity either prior (in the case of major requests) or in payment for an emergency service (for a spell that helps the character survive, for example). That makes it more story-driven, and less mechanical.

Works better, and is more flavorful. The onus of a quest that must be undertaken will also make PCs actively consider when this ability is worth it.


Replacing caster/manifester level checks was to give the idea that even two 5th level wizards aren't necessarily going to have the same power level (one of them took a level in fighter where they took spellcraft as a cross-class skill), so that should be reflected in the things that require caster level checks.

Already accounted for. The one with a level in Fighter has a level of Fighter instead of a level of Psion. His manifester level is reduced by 1 because his total Psion level is one less (due to the Fighter level).

Changing the caster/manifester level check, however, means you have to rebalance EVERYTHING that uses caster/manifester level, because all those numbers are based around the idea that Class Level = Caster Level for full casters. Using skill value can make this number off by 10 or more, which unbalances everything based on that value.


I'm wondering if my change to sorcerers (the idea for which I got from Zman) might have made the sorcerers any better?

Better? Not really. It hurts less at low levels, but now it's basically completely ignorable at high levels, so Sorcerers basically get free unlimited casting at even less of a cost than before. I could probably easily nova the first 5-6 rounds of every encounter for only a small amount of preperation: healing is cheap, going nova is strong. This is one of the reasons why HP is a poor balance for spellcasting.


Admittedly, I wasn't really making this stuff with min-maxers in mind, since the group I play with tends to put RP over power, so they would, say, take a druid like this in an adventure spanning multiple environments, because a: they wanted to roleplay a druid, and b: only being able to cast within their favored environment could lead to interesting roleplaying opportunities.

I'm aware that this is a common argument in defense of certain design: it is not, however, an excuse for poor mechanical design. Non min-maxers will still be annoyed at often being denied a full half of their Druid's abilities, for example, even if it IS a good opportunity for role-play. Being less effective is fine: being horribly gimped in every situation but one (your chosen environment) isn't. I love RP as much (likely a lot more, given my gaming preferences) than the next guy, but poor mechanical design is still poor mechanical design. One can roleplay a Druid just fine with the old mechanics, without being either horribly overpowered or losing half your class features.

That aside, the Wizard casting is still broken. It's either horribly overpowered, or risks death at every spell. Not good.

Let's look at some other options, shall we?


CLERIC & PALADIN

Beseech Immortal (Su): As an immediate action, a Cleric or Paladin or may request a favor from his divine patron. This favor can be anything from bringing rainclouds to a desert village to saving the Cleric or Paladin from a deadly sword swing, and the exact manner in which it manifests is up to the DM. It is, however, incapable of directly causing harm to any creature: the miracle is one of divine providence, not one of divine violence.

Once the miracle has been performed, the Cleric or Paladin may not use this ability again until he or she has performed a favor for his or her patron in keeping with the magnitude of the miracle requested. While the deflection of a fatal sword swing may require only a few minutes of extra prayer the next morning (depending on the level of the PC: the lesser a deities' servants, the more minor the miracles they may request, typically), a miracle such as the staying of a volcanic eruption might require a great quest be undertaken, or a great service performed. The exact nature of the recompense required is divinely communicated to the Cleric or Paladin soon after the miracle has been performed.

This ability may not be used more than once each day, even in the case of the smallest miracles.

This makes for a very DM-driven, story-based ability that really conveys the fact that Clerics and Paladins are champions of the divine. It can be used to drive quests, make for powerful moments, and generally add a great story-driven element to the class.

DRUID

Leyline Knowedge (Ex): At 1st level, a Druid selects a type of environment from the following list: arctic, desert, forest, jungle, mountain, or swamp. A Druid has a mastery of the magic within his chosen terrain. While he may cast his spells normally in any environment, he may only cast spells of his highest available spell level when in his chosen environment.

When Wildshaping into animal forms not native to his environment, a Druid treats his Hit Dice as if it were 5 lower than his Druid level.

We can now gimp the Druid slightly when outside his chosen environment without making him feel useless. I've tied this to Wild Shape as well, because it gets us a "Environmental Druid" feel without having to divide spells up between appropriate environments. Now Druids can still master all of nature (which is a common Druid theme) while still being themed around a favored environment.


*****

Wizard and Sorcerer are harder, because your concepts are more vague and your mechanics less easy to fix. Both need serious revision, but I'll have to think more on it.

[Plato Play-Doh]

Those changes are great, and I thank you profusely for your suggestions. Do you think making the sorcerers' spell backlash either deal some ability damage or simply make it only affected by natural healing could do the trick if combined with a fix for the way the damage scales by spell level? Maybe it could deal spell level Con damage or something, so that it stays relevant at higher levels while not being absolutely terrible at low levels, since they can pretty much cast 0-level spells at-will with no penalty? Also, you're right about the manifester level checks. I'll change that.

[Zman]

Those changes are great, and I thank you profusely for your suggestions. Do you think making the sorcerers' spell backlash either deal some ability damage or simply make it only affected by natural healing could do the trick if combined with a fix for the way the damage scales by spell level? Maybe it could deal spell level Con damage or something, so that it stays relevant at higher levels while not being absolutely terrible at low levels, since they can pretty much cast 0-level spells at-will with no penalty? Also, you're right about the manifester level checks. I'll change that.

The problem with simply dealing spell level damage is that you've given the sorcerer at will casting which allows novaing. Dealing Damage isn't the solution if it proves an insignificant deterrent for repeatedly casting your most powerful spell. If you take this approach, put a recharge time on the ability, or try this...

When you cast a spell you are required to make a a fortitude Save equal to 10+Spell Level+Cha Modifier(or Con if you've switched the casting stat which is IMO a mistake). Failure Fatigues the Sorcerer for the rest of the encounter, a second Failure Exhausts them, a third knocks them Unconscious. That is probably a bit harsh, but I feel like its in the right direction, maybe not casting stat addition to the save. Of course this assumes you've still given him a a Good Fort Save.

As to Wizards, they ARE broken, any changes should limit them in some ways, not just make hem jump through hoops for the same vast game breaking power.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Those changes are great, and I thank you profusely for your suggestions. Do you think making the sorcerers' spell backlash either deal some ability damage or simply make it only affected by natural healing could do the trick if combined with a fix for the way the damage scales by spell level? Maybe it could deal spell level Con damage or something, so that it stays relevant at higher levels while not being absolutely terrible at low levels, since they can pretty much cast 0-level spells at-will with no penalty? Also, you're right about the manifester level checks. I'll change that.

Backlash isn't a good balancing mechanic in general, because it's either to painful and hinders casting in general, or to easy to get around and makes nova-ing easy all the time. So backlash for all spells should definitely go.

I'm still unsure what to replace it with, but usually paying a price for spells isn't a good mechanic, at least in D&D.

[Lord_Gareth]

Backlash isn't a good balancing mechanic in general, because it's either to painful and hinders casting in general, or to easy to get around and makes nova-ing easy all the time. So backlash for all spells should definitely go.

Have you forgotten the Paradigm Project so easily, my friend? The Ritualists you have created weep in sorrow.

Well, except for the Sandman. He sits in his iron prison, sharpening the weapon that is his hate, awaiting the day we unleash him upon an unsuspecting universe.

Just...

Waiting.

[Zale]

Did I read that correctly?

Druids with no limits on spells per day?

Good Gods. The Unbridled Horror.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Have you forgotten the Paradigm Project so easily, my friend? The Ritualists you have created weep in sorrow.


I haven't forgotten. But you'll remember we went to a lot of effort to make sure that those penalties were A: appropriate penalties, and B: our primary balancing factor was time, so the casters could still utilize decent power abilities without burning all their resources if there were willing to spend time.

Finally, they weren't exactly casting traditional spells. :smalltongue:

[Plato Play-Doh]

I think I've decided I'll just make them make a concentration check w/out taking any damage. How would that work? Maybe something in the range of 10+spelllevelx2? It should stay relevant at later levels, not be too punishing early on, and reflect the whole "having to put a significant amount of effort into unleashing their natural power" vibe.

Edit: Also took away the greater HD size and all the other gish-type stuff from Sorcerer.