3.5 Choosing maneuvers

[herrhauptmann]

I'm working on a high level gestalt, and had the space in my build for a small ToB dip in my later levels.
Originally it was 4 levels of warblade at levels 14, 15, 16, and 17.
{table=head]Level|IL|Maneuver|Stance
Warblade1|7.5|IHS, Bounding Assault, Mind Strike| Absolute Steel Dance
Warblade2|8.5|Iron Heart Focus|None
Warblade3|9.5|Rapid Counter|None
Warblade4|10.5|Mind Strike Moment of Alacrity|Hearing the Air[/table]
With a DM 9th level maneuver gained from a ring of diamond mind: Time Stands Still. I'm still a bit of a novice at ToB, so that progression took quite a bit of time.

Since then, the game level changed, and I'm changing my character build a little, so I'm going up to Warblade 7 now (at level 20), with a 2 level dip in Swordsage at levels 15 and 16. (SSage Initiator levels 8 and 9)

If it matters, character build is as follows.
Dwarf.
Ranger3/Ftr2/HorizonWalker8/Warblade7 // Mineral warrior1/Quorbred2/Dwarfparagon3/Deepwarden2/Witch hunter6/S.sage2/Planar Champ4

Witch hunter is my homebrew anti-mage PrC (in my sig). Planar champ is in Manual of the Planes (originally was a planeswalking campaign)

Going for the mageslayer line of feats, as well as shocktrooper/leap attack for some respectable damage.

I'd really appreciate some help on those last few maneuvers/stances.


Also, I want to doublecheck something. If I use warblade to gain some DM maneuvers at level 14, can I then use those maneuvers to count as prereqs towards gaining higher level DM maneuvers with my swordsage levels?
This is more relevant for the alternate build which is a human with swordsage at a lower level.

[Aegis013]

You have a problem with your selections. IL works just like caster level for Wizards for determining the highest level available to you, so at IL 7.5, 3rd level 4th level maneuvers and stances is your highest, at 10.5, 5th level maneuvers and stances.

You will not be able to use Time Stands Still, as 9th level maneuvers require an IL of 17.

So it works like this:
IL 1? 1st level maneuvers
IL 3? 2nd level maneuvers
IL 5? 3rd level
IL 7? 4th level
IL 9? 5th level
IL 11? 6th level, et cetera.

[herrhauptmann]

You have a problem with your selections. IL works just like caster level for Wizards for determining the highest level available to you, so at IL 7.5, 3rd level maneuvers and stances is your highest, at 10.5, 5th level maneuvers and stances.

You will not be able to use Time Stands Still, as 9th level maneuvers require an IL of 17.

I thought for the items that grant maneuvers, you just needed to know a sufficient number of maneuvers of the right school.
Like to get TST, you normally need IL of 17 if you want it from your class abilities. (Similar to a spell)
But the maneuver prereqs only say I need 4 maneuvers/stances from DM, nothing about being a 17th level warblade/s.sage.

edit:
I could be wrong on the Ring of Diamond Mind thing, but I don't think I am.

[Darrin]

I thought for the items that grant maneuvers, you just needed to know a sufficient number of maneuvers of the right school.
Like to get TST, you normally need IL of 17 if you want it from your class abilities. (Similar to a spell)
But the maneuver prereqs only say I need 4 maneuvers/stances from DM, nothing about being a 17th level warblade/s.sage.

edit:
I could be wrong on the Ring of Diamond Mind thing, but I don't think I am.

That's been a point of debate before, as it's not clear by RAW. If your DM is ok with this interpretation, then by all means have fun.

[Shining Wrath]

I thought for the items that grant maneuvers, you just needed to know a sufficient number of maneuvers of the right school.
Like to get TST, you normally need IL of 17 if you want it from your class abilities. (Similar to a spell)
But the maneuver prereqs only say I need 4 maneuvers/stances from DM, nothing about being a 17th level warblade/s.sage.

edit:
I could be wrong on the Ring of Diamond Mind thing, but I don't think I am.

If you look in your ToB, you'll see something that says words like "Swordsage 3 / Warblade 3" for each maneuver. I think it's pretty clear they want you to have an initiator level such that you can take 3rd level maneuvers to take the example. I am currently AFB, but I'm playing a Warblade right now.

Do discuss Iron Heart Surge with your DM prior to the first time you use it. Mine knew of it in advance and we clarified that IHS could not eliminate the wetness of water or turn off the sun if such things offended my Warblade. The RAI are very different than RAW, and just pulling that baby out and saying "I just turned off the anti-magic field" on a DM who has no prior knowledge of ToB can cause a flurry of heavy DM tomes to cross the table in your direction.

[Shining Wrath]

You have a problem with your selections. IL works just like caster level for Wizards for determining the highest level available to you, so at IL 7.5, 3rd level maneuvers and stances is your highest, at 10.5, 5th level maneuvers and stances.

You will not be able to use Time Stands Still, as 9th level maneuvers require an IL of 17.

So it works like this:
IL 1? 1st level maneuvers
IL 3? 2nd level maneuvers
IL 5? 3rd level
IL 7? 4th level
IL 9? 5th level
IL 11? 6th level, et cetera.

It works like this:
IL Max maneuver level available
1, 2 1
3, 4 2
5, 6 3
7, 8 4
9, 10 5
11, 12 6
13, 14 7
15, 16 8
17+ 9

AFB but I believe a table just like that may be found therein. So, at 7.5 you have access to 4th level maneuvers, and at 10.5 you have access to 5th level.

[Aegis013]

I thought for the items that grant maneuvers, you just needed to know a sufficient number of maneuvers of the right school.
Like to get TST, you normally need IL of 17 if you want it from your class abilities. (Similar to a spell)
But the maneuver prereqs only say I need 4 maneuvers/stances from DM, nothing about being a 17th level warblade/s.sage.

edit:
I could be wrong on the Ring of Diamond Mind thing, but I don't think I am.

As a previous poster stated, if your DM has allowed that interpretation, great! Have fun!

Also, I totally goofed on the 3rd level limit (it should be 4th at IL 7), which means that Iron Heart Focus is on your list before you could learn it. At 8.5, you're still limited to 4th level maneuvers, and Iron Focus is a 5th level, which won't be available until IL 9. As well as Moment of Alacrity, which would require IL 11. Keep in mind that IL's round down, unless your DM has explicitly houseruled them to round up.

Sorry for not touching on your second question before, maneuvers you know in either list should count towards the maneuvers known requirements for learning maneuvers for either list. So if you know two Stone Dragon maneuvers on Warblade, for example, you could learn a Stone Dragon maneuver with two required pre-reqs that you meet the necessary IL for with Swordsage. Remember to keep your initiator levels separate.

[Shining Wrath]

...
Sorry for not touching on your second question before, maneuvers you know in either list should count towards the maneuvers known requirements for learning maneuvers for either list. So if you know two Stone Dragon maneuvers on Warblade, for example, you could learn a Stone Dragon maneuver with two required pre-reqs that you meet the necessary IL for with Swordsage. Remember to keep your initiator levels separate.

Also keep your lists of maneuvers separate, as the mechanism for refreshing Warblade maneuvers (use a standard action for a single attack, get them all back) is quite different than the mechanism for refreshing Swordsage maneuvers (full round of meditation gets ONE back).

Also, talk to your DM about trading maneuvers at even numbered levels. Can you gain a Warblade maneuver in exchange for one you learned as a Swordsage?

[herrhauptmann]

Also, I totally goofed on the 3rd level limit (it should be 4th at IL 7), which means that Iron Heart Focus is on your list before you could learn it. At 8.5, you're still limited to 4th level maneuvers, and Iron Focus is a 5th level, which won't be available until IL 9. As well as Moment of Alacrity, which would require IL 11. Keep in mind that IL's round down, unless your DM has explicitly houseruled them to round up.

Not to worry on the goof, I figured it was a typo given the second half of your first post.
You're right on IHF and Moment of Alacrity. I think when I selected those, I might've had my warblade come in a level later in the build, which should account for the discrepancy.


Sorry for not touching on your second question before, maneuvers you know in either list should count towards the maneuvers known requirements for learning maneuvers for either list. So if you know two Stone Dragon maneuvers on Warblade, for example, you could learn a Stone Dragon maneuver with two required pre-reqs that you meet the necessary IL for with Swordsage. Remember to keep your initiator levels separate.
That's great news. Makes things a little more complicated, but it's great.


Do discuss Iron Heart Surge with your DM prior to the first time you use it. Mine knew of it in advance and we clarified that IHS could not eliminate the wetness of water or turn off the sun if such things offended my Warblade. The RAI are very different than RAW, and just pulling that baby out and saying "I just turned off the anti-magic field" on a DM who has no prior knowledge of ToB can cause a flurry of heavy DM tomes to cross the table in your direction.
Don't worry, I'm not planning to be ridiculous with IHS. And it's a pbp, so no books flying at my head either. The character will actually have a bit of redundancy in him, various ways of ignoring this spell or that hazard. Like if the DM says that Pierce Magic Concealment doesn't let me see through an invisibility spell as someone sneaks up on us, I've still got Detect Magic, Blindsight, and Nemesis Feat to let me find the enemy.

Any suggestions as to good sword sage stances and maneuvers to supplement my warblade levels?

[Shining Wrath]

Any suggestions as to good sword sage stances and maneuvers to supplement my warblade levels?

As a matter of fact, I'm seriously considering multi-classing my WB with some SS. I'm thinking I'll eventually take the Master of Nine PrC, and that requires more maneuver disciplines than WB permits. Also, a SS gets 6 maneuvers known, 4 readied, at first level.

First, though, my WB has been taking Iron Heart, Diamond Mind, and some White Raven. So because I wanted to qualify for Mo9, and also just to broaden the sorts of things I could do, I wanted to choose maneuvers from other disciplines. Therefore: your mileage may vary.

Having said that:
First SS level:

Desert Wind: Distracting Ember. Instant flanking for one round, and your DM may let you start a fire with this summoned fire elemental under optimal conditions.

Shadow Hand: Cloak of Deception. Greater Invisibility for the duration of your turn is pure win.

Shadow Hand: Shadow Jaunt. 50' teleport as a standard action.

Shadow Hand: Shadow Garotte. 5d6 strangling damage (ranged touch, no save) plus they must Fort save or become flat-footed. "I find your lack of faith ... disturbing".

Shadow Hand: Assassin's stance. Gain sneak attack for 2d6 any time you catch them flat footed or gain combat advantage ... and did you notice Distracting Ember? My WB teams up with a Crusader, and I've maxed out ranks on Tumble so I can easily flank. Plus the win that is Improved Uncanny Dodge means the mook swarms can't flank me as I flank them.

Tiger Claw: Claw at the Moon. Jump-based attack for +2D6, and if you threaten a critical you get +4 to confirm, which has nice synergy with your WB Battle Ardor.

Tiger Claw: Sudden Leap. Swift action lets you jump as a move ... so, for example, jump aside, then charge.


Second SS Level:


Tiger Claw: Soaring Raptor Strike. Jump based attack; if the jump check succeeds, gain +4 to hit, and +6D6 damage. The only drawback is a restriction that your foe has to be of a larger size than you.

Tiger Claw: Leaping Dragon Stance. Add +10 FEET to your jump check; RAW that means it should add 10' to your vertical leap.


Two levels of SS also provides +3 to Reflex, +3 to Will, +1 to Init, and +Wis Modifier to AC.

[Aegis013]

Any suggestions as to good sword sage stances and maneuvers to supplement my warblade levels?

Due to the issue of prerequisites, a focus on diamond mind would be a good idea. However, one of my favorites is Shadow Stride (50ft extraordinary teleport as a move action) your move action is unlikely to be as useful as 50ft teleportation in any circumstance where you need to move, thus can't full attack.

So I'd consider moving some Diamond Mind maneuvers from Warblade to Swordsage and trying to pick up White Raven Tactics with Warblade, it is an extremely useful ability. There's a couple of questionable things you'll want to run by your DM, but even if both are off the table White Raven Tactics is a highly worthwhile investment.

1. You can qualify for White Raven Tactics by buying a Novice Crown of the White Ravens to learn a white raven maneuver, then learn White Raven Tactics, then remove the crown, White Raven Tactics needs you to know one maneuver to keep it, but you do, you know White Raven Tactics. (Check with your DM, this is pretty RAW legal, but still, kinda cheesy)

2. Ask if you can target yourself with White Raven Tactics. This makes it ridiculously good, but if you can't target yourself, it's still great, since you can double up an ally's turn or get your buddy to act before the enemies.