Did Pathfinder kill 3.5 persistent spell?

[Carth]

The only equivalent I've found is the ring of continuation, which for an entirely too expensive 56k allows one spell with a duration of 10 minutes/level to last 24 hours. And casting another such spell kicks the one currently being affected by the ring out and takes its place. :smallconfused:

[Darius Kane]

Backwards compatibility.

[Blisstake]

The only equivalent I've found is the ring of continuation, which for an entirely too expensive 56k allows one spell with a duration of 10 minutes/level to last 24 hours. And casting another such spell kicks the one currently being affected by the ring out and takes its place. :smallconfused:

Yeah, in the original print, it worked on any personal spell, but then the developers realized quite a few situations where that could be abused, and overnerfed it (seriously, there are only around 8 personal spells that last 10 minutes/CL)

That being said, I'm glad it's gone.

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah, in the original print, it worked on any personal spell, but then the developers realized quite a few situations where that could be abused, and overnerfed it (seriously, there are only around 8 personal spells that last 10 minutes/CL)

That being said, I'm glad it's gone.
Persistent spell is a mixed bag.

On the one hand, Persistent Spell means that the character (ab)using it is going to have a consistent, predictable set of buffs up, which makes it much easier for the DM to plan encounter difficulty (he doesn't have to worry about whether or not he needs to plan for the boost from Divine Favor for any individual encounter - the Cleric will either have it all day, or not at all; which means it's much simpler to adjust encounter difficulty for the flavor of 'challenging' that the party enjoys).

On the other hand, Persistent Spell also means that the character (ab)using it is going to have many more buffs up than they otherwise would - which noticeably increases that character's 'power'; if the rest of the party isn't doing similar things, it leads to a noticeable power discrepancy between party members, which is the root of a rather lot of problems at the gaming table.

[darkdragoon]

Pathfinder Persistent Spell is a different metamagic. It's arguably more absurd than the original.

[Carth]

Pathfinder Persistent Spell is a different metamagic. It's arguably more absurd than the original.

Yep, I've just created a character which takes great advantage of the new version. At level 15 I'll be firing off geysers (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/geyser.html)with a 35' splash radius, anything that takes any of the 2d6 fire damage and/or 1 force damage needs to make 2 DC 42 will saves (43 once I hit level 16) or be dazed for 5 rounds.

[Doorhandle]

Damn that's nice. My only regret is that my pathfinder society Magus will never get to have it.

Also, sad to see that they failed to fix it though omission.

[demigodus]

Persistent spell is a mixed bag.

On the one hand, Persistent Spell means that the character (ab)using it is going to have a consistent, predictable set of buffs up, which makes it much easier for the DM to plan encounter difficulty (he doesn't have to worry about whether or not he needs to plan for the boost from Divine Favor for any individual encounter - the Cleric will either have it all day, or not at all; which means it's much simpler to adjust encounter difficulty for the flavor of 'challenging' that the party enjoys).

On the other hand, Persistent Spell also means that the character (ab)using it is going to have many more buffs up than they otherwise would - which noticeably increases that character's 'power'; if the rest of the party isn't doing similar things, it leads to a noticeable power discrepancy between party members, which is the root of a rather lot of problems at the gaming table.

My solution to that is 1 level of the Spell Dancer prestige class. You don't persist your buffs. You Chained Extended Persistent Ocular your buffs. So now you shoot eye beams that hit your entire party, and buff everyone!

Only limit is you can't do this with personal spells...

[jmelesky]

Yep, I've just created a character which takes great advantage of the new version. At level 15 I'll be firing off geysers (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/geyser.html)with a 35' splash radius, anything that takes any of the 2d6 fire damage and/or 1 force damage needs to make 2 DC 42 will saves (43 once I hit level 16) or be dazed for 5 rounds.

Can you give me a rundown of that DC? It sounds high.

Actually, wait, how are you casting it? Persistent is +2, Dazing is +3, that would make it a 10th-level spell...

Oh, Spell Perfection, right? Combined with Magical Lineage or something so it tops out at a 9th-level spell?

So we're looking at...

- Spell level 5
- SF (Conj) and GSF (Conj), doubled by Perfection for +4
- EF (Fire) and GEF (Fire), doubled to +4
- EF (Water) and GEF (Water), doubled to +4
- Casting stat of, say, 30? That's +10

Which only adds up to 37 (and requires ... ten feats? Six various Focus feats, plus three metamagics to qualify for Spell Perfection). And it doesn't work on anything immune to fire.

I must be missing something.

[Carth]

18 base charisma
+2 from a charmed succubus (profane bonus, doubtful she'll resist charm monster after planar binding)
+6 enhancement bonus
+5 inherent bonus
+3 venerable (untyped bonus)
+3 or +4 from levels (untyped bonus)
+2 racial (ifrit)
+2 for the purposes of sorcerer abilities (additional ifrit racial ability)
Score of 41 and mod of 15, 42 and 16 when I hit level 16.

15/16 ability score mod (untyped bonus)
+15 base for level 5 spell (untyped bonus)
+2 arcane bloodline level 15 ability (untyped bonus)
+1 arcane bloodline arcana (untyped bonus)
+1 familiar using wand of arcane concordance (enhancement bonus)
+8 EF, GEF, SF, and GSF doubled by spell perfection (water isn't valid for EF, so I can't double up there, otherwise all these are untyped bonuses)
42/43

I'll have a rod for when I want to apply persistent spell, otherwise I'll only be casting it as a silent and dazing spell. I'm not using magical lineage, I'm instead using havoc of the society, as this way virtually nothing will resist all damage, and therefore virtually everything will be subject to being dazed. Sadly, metamagic master is restricted to a level 3 spell or lower.

Level 15 crossblooded arcane and elemental fire sorcerer:
Trait: Havoc of the society
Trait: Reactionary
1: Elemental focus
3: Greater Elemental focus
5: Silent spell
7: Spell focus (bloodline)
7: Greater spell focus
9: Improved familiar
11: Dazing spell
13: Quicken spell
13: Improved initiative (bloodline)
15: Spell perfection

I'll be having an air elemental as my familiar, and also using it as a mount to take advantage of its 100' perfect fly speed. It will be UMDing the wand of arcane concordance for free extend spell.

I'll be trading away an ifrit's racial fire resistance to receive their +4 initiative bump option. I'll also have an ioun stone, banner of ancient kings mounted, and gauntlets with the dueling property, for a total of 19+dex to initiative, or 24+dex if I have anticipate peril active.

I'm unsure what I want my third metamagic feat to be.

[Raven777]

+15 base for level 15 spell


There's the problem.

There's no such thing as a level 15 spell. Geyser is 5th level (in the same way Magic Missile is 1st, Fireball is 3rd and Time Stop is 9th). Spell levels and caster level are not the same thing. And DCs work off spell level.

So you add +5 to the DC, not +15.

[Carth]

Apologies, the level 15 part is a typo, but the base DC is still 15 for a level 5 spell. Edit: yep, double checked, everything is correct. DC is 42/43.

[Addi]

So you add +5 to the DC, not +15.

I think he added the base +10 for the save already, so it's okay.


@ Carth: Are you sure, there are no boni with the same type in the calculation? Are those all unnamed or different named? That's really a lot.

[Carth]

The only one that provides a named bonus to save DCs is arcane concordance, everything else is untyped. I annotated the bonuses accordingly.

[Metahuman1]

Damn that's nice. My only regret is that my pathfinder society Magus will never get to have it.

Also, sad to see that they failed to fix it though omission.

Out of curiosity, why not? Were did Pathfinder persist come form? One of the supplements that says "It's banned in Society Play."

[Larkas]

Backwards compatibility.

This. Persistent Spell is not OGL. They couldn't reprint it even if they wanted.

[Carth]

Huh. I had never thought about it that way.

[Claudius Maximus]

3.5's Persistent Spell actually is OGL, since it was printed in Deities and Demigods, which has OGL mechanics (but not fluff if memory serves).

[Jack_Simth]

3.5's Persistent Spell actually is OGL, since it was printed in Deities and Demigods, which has OGL mechanics (but not fluff if memory serves).
Correct. Made the SRD, and available for download on Wizards.com (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) as part of the Divine Abilities and Feats segment.

[Douglas]

+8 EF, GEF, SF, and GSF (water isn't valid for EF, so I can't double up there, otherwise all these are untyped bonuses)
Those are all +1 each, not +2, so that should only be +4 total.

[Carth]

Those are all +1 each, not +2, so that should only be +4 total.

Spell perfection doubles each one.

[navar100]

Persistent Spell has too much baggage. It's a logical idea of a metamagic feat, but in practice people yell about it. Not having Divine Metamagic lowers the volume, but as soon as a spellcaster wants/makes/has a metamagic rod of it, the yelling returns.

Even if you vehemently despise Pathfinder's take on magic, they still made their choices and attempts to curtail it from 3E. Not having 3E's version of Persistent Spell goes a long way to do that.

If the feat works for your game, port it in. No harm done. Pathfinder is not in the wrong for not having it.

[Ravenica]

18 base charisma
+2 from a charmed succubus (profane bonus, doubtful she'll resist charm monster after planar binding)
+6 enhancement bonus
+5 inherent bonus
+3 venerable (untyped bonus)
+3 or +4 from levels (untyped bonus)
+2 racial (ifrit)
+2 for the purposes of sorcerer abilities (additional ifrit racial ability)
Score of 41 and mod of 15, 42 and 16 when I hit level 16.

15/16 ability score mod (untyped bonus)
+15 base for level 5 spell (untyped bonus)
+2 arcane bloodline level 15 ability (untyped bonus)
+1 arcane bloodline arcana (untyped bonus)
+1 familiar using wand of arcane concordance (enhancement bonus)
+8 EF, GEF, SF, and GSF doubled by spell perfection (water isn't valid for EF, so I can't double up there, otherwise all these are untyped bonuses)
42/43

I'll have a rod for when I want to apply persistent spell, otherwise I'll only be casting it as a silent and dazing spell. I'm not using magical lineage, I'm instead using havoc of the society, as this way virtually nothing will resist all damage, and therefore virtually everything will be subject to being dazed. Sadly, metamagic master is restricted to a level 3 spell or lower.

Level 15 crossblooded arcane and elemental fire sorcerer:
Trait: Havoc of the society
Trait: Reactionary
1: Elemental focus
3: Greater Elemental focus
5: Silent spell
7: Spell focus (bloodline)
7: Greater spell focus
9: Improved familiar
11: Dazing spell
13: ???
13: Improved initiative (bloodline)
15: Spell perfection

I'll be having an air elemental as my familiar, and also using it as a mount to take advantage of its 100' perfect fly speed. It will be UMDing the wand of arcane concordance for free extend spell.

I'll be trading away an ifrit's racial fire resistance to receive their +4 initiative bump option. I'll also have an ioun stone, banner of ancient kings mounted, and gauntlets with the dueling property, for a total of 19+dex to initiative, or 24+dex if I have anticipate peril active.

I'm unsure what I want my third metamagic feat to be.

Are you playing crossblooded? Do you really think the extra level behind you get for spell knowledge is worth it?

[Carth]

Yep. Mechanically I don't think it's worth it at all, but it's become part of how I envision the character.

[Ravenica]

heh just curious, I have a nearly identical character running in an osirion campaign right now (though the DM is running custom races so I had some extra points to spend and buffed my cha even higher at character creation heh, and im only level 12 so not all the extra buffs from wishes and only +4 on my circlet, definately not venerable yet but thats where im headed with this character)

I also took the massive initiative bonus from the alternate traits, have something like +15 on initiative right now heh

mostly been blasting (and using the necklace of fireballs on skeletons as suicide troopers trick)

edit: DM hates me lol nearly everything has been fire immune the last 3 tombs :smallbiggrin:

[Carth]

I've seen a very similar thing crop up with one DM I play with (he does 3.5 only), but with crit immune things. This DM loves construct and undead as enemies, it routinely messes with another friend that love crit based builds.

[Ravenica]

Heh well I deserved it, I sprung the necklace of nukes on his bbeg with 15 skellys(each bloodied) each baring a necklace and dropped a fireball and quickened(rod) fireball on the group...

He had never seen this atrocity before :smallamused:

15xType IV Necklaces
15 x 8d6, 30 x 6d6, 30 x 4d6, 60 x 2d6
+ 2 x 11d6 (impossible save)


yeah even after save his boss died taking 1500 or so damage

in my defense the rest of the party (well 2 of them who were regulars with this dm, and a little more experienced than the other 2) requested that I deal with this bbeg once and for all. He had "magically" been whisked out of zones that prevent teleporting (via dimension door) twice before i joined the campaign just because the DM didn't want him to die. One of the players is a new player in the game I dm and knew I'd have some sort of way to feed him some major pain lol

[Story]

How did you get so many Necklace of Fireballs to burn in the first place?

[Larkas]

3.5's Persistent Spell actually is OGL, since it was printed in Deities and Demigods, which has OGL mechanics (but not fluff if memory serves).

D'OH! Totally missed that! Sorry for the misinformation. :smallfrown:

[strider24seven]

Backwards compatibility.

One of the many things that Pathfinder is lacking.

In all seriousness though, if you want to have all day buffs, just pick some hour per level buffs, jack up your CL, and use Extend Spell.

[Ravenica]

How did you get so many Necklace of Fireballs to burn in the first place?

I came into the campaign at 10th level with full wbl and the character has craft wonderous, we had about 3 months downtime in game time to craft and my character has magical knack (5% cheaper crafting) I made 20. 51300 GP

didn't really need much in the way of magical items the group is woefully underoptomized. The GM has to cheat to keep enemies alive because he can't seem to play them effectively either.

[Doorhandle]

Out of curiosity, why not? Were did Pathfinder persist come form? One of the supplements that says "It's banned in Society Play."

Pathfinder only gets up to 6th level spells (due to it's role as a gish-in-a-can), and pathfinder society tops out at 12th level, so I end up with 4th-level spells only.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Persistent Spell is an inherently broken metamagic that boosts duration to all day regardless of original duration. And because it's so powerful, it is priced highly, so the only reason to ever use it is to exploit it's complete lack of caring about original duration as much as possible, or to find a cheesy trick to avoid paying for it.

PF went and made something even worse with the ring (now EVERY caster can enjoy persistent spell cheese, not just DMM Clerics and a select few others!) which while expensive is not obscenely so. It barely costs more than a +5 weapon, and any caster can take Eldritch Heritage (arcane bloodline) feat to get an arcane bond. Choose ring. Congrats, you can now craft on the ring w/o needing Forge Ring or the accompanying high level it requires, and the price drops to 28k. PF removed xp costs for crafting. Also, by only affecting personal spells while as many used persistent for party buffs, it has the additional crappiness of being extremely selfish! Yay!

Thankfully, in one of the few instances that paizo actually nerfed something that needing nerfing, they hit the ring pretty hard. I don't think Persistent should exist at all, though something that makes duration 10x as long, max of 24 hours or normal duration, would be fine. But no one ever goes that route...

End of rant.

[Krobar]

I killed it in my game. If my players want their personal spells to have a longer duration, they can research higher level variations of those spells. Simple as that.

My simple rule of thumb:

1 round/level to 1 minute/level = 1 level higher,
1 minute/level to 10 minutes/level = 1 level higher,
10 minutes/level to 1 hour/level = 1 level higher.


I also limited Craft Contingent Spell. Instead of one full spell of any level per CL, it's one spell LEVEL per CL.

[StreamOfTheSky]

My simple rule of thumb:

1 round/level to 1 minute/level = 1 level higher,
1 minute/level to 10 minutes/level = 1 level higher,
10 minutes/level to 1 hour/level = 1 level higher.

So what is the point of extend spell in your game?

Persist as 10x duration is fine, but I think it needs to be +2 or +3 levels, probably best as +2 levels with extend as a pre-req. Though metamagic rods would let you get around that...

I agree with your conversion rates, though.

[Krobar]

So what is the point of extend spell in your game?

Persist as 10x duration is fine, but I think it needs to be +2 or +3 levels, probably best as +2 levels with extend as a pre-req. Though metamagic rods would let you get around that...

I agree with your conversion rates, though.


Doubling the listed duration is one thing. I can live with that. One round per level becoming two rounds per level, or one minute becoming two minutes... Okay.

But taking a spell that lasts rounds or minutes per level and extending it to 24 hours is another thing entirely.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I agree. I'm saying... if going from one duration to the next level is only +1 spell level, while as extend is 2x duration for +1 spell level... what is the point of extend spell?

[Krobar]

I agree. I'm saying... if going from one duration to the next level is only +1 spell level, while as extend is 2x duration for +1 spell level... what is the point of extend spell?

It's handy if you're limited in the number of spells you can know at each spell level, or simply don't want to take the time and expense to research a new spell.

[Xervous]

so that's another case of sorcerer getting boned with respect to wizard... funny how most houserules with magic seem to do that.

[Krobar]

so that's another case of sorcerer getting boned with respect to wizard... funny how most houserules with magic seem to do that.

We have more house rules than just that. Several more.

For example... sorcerers get d6 hit dice in my game, instead of d4. They also get to learn one spell at each spell level per point of charisma bonus, instead of following that lame, arbitrary chart (bards, too). So by the time they're 20th level, with a 28 Charisma (assuming a +5 bonus from casting wishes, and +5 from gaining levels), they're able to learn 9 spells per spell level they can cast. That gives them much love in comparison to what they had, and really helps their higher level versatility.

When I taketh, I also giveth, and I've always liked sorcerers and thought they were far too weak.

[TuggyNE]

I don't think Persistent should exist at all, though something that makes duration 10x as long, max of 24 hours or normal duration, would be fine. But no one ever goes that route...

Ever? :smallwink: (I should resurrect that and try to get some more PEACHes.)