[3.5] Graplemancer Punchbarian

[Malak'ai]

I have a concept for a Professional Wrestler style Unarmed Barbarian that I'd like to try in a game that I'm trying to convince my group to play (one where I'm not DM).

What I want to know is, is this concept a good idea? And what build advice the Playground could give me.

All books except Dragon Conpendium are allowed (as no one in the group has it) and no Dragon Mag.
Only restrictions would be PHB races only (no variants of any form) and no flaws and traits.

I know it's not OP but I was thinking of throwing some Reaping Mauler PrC in there, just so I can say I've used it, but it's not essential and can be left out if something else fits better.

I don't have any stats, but assume 38pb.

So please, oppionions and build advice is welcome.

[Flickerdart]

Reaping Mauler makes you worse at grappling. Stay away from it. The real grappling PrC is Black Blood Cultist.

[Malak'ai]

What book is that in? I've never seen it.

[Flickerdart]

Champions of Ruin. Check out the handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870826/Black_Blood_Cultist_Handbook:_A_Grapplers_Manual).

[NekoJoker]

the Black Blood cultist is a PrC from Champions of Ruin and it consist on doing massive damage while grappling some poor creature that has happened to offend you.

Handbook provided Here: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870826/Black_Blood_Cultist_Handbook:_A_Grapplers_Manual

It certainly is the best for doing damage. Highly recommended, but maybe a bit hard to fit into a campaign... IIRC you have to be evil as a Prereq.

If you are not going the cultist's way, then a taking a few levels in bear warrior is a must. Massive Str bonus, size increase and improved grab all in one.

just in case, I'll leave a handy link about the Bear Warrior prC right here.

http://dndtools.eu/classes/bear-warrior/

[Malak'ai]

Ah. I'll have to borrow the book off a friend to give it a read, though just looking at the handbook quickly, seems really good, but not the direction I was looking to take.
We don't normally allow Evil characters and while I could do the CN alignment, the prereqs look a little too far out from what I'd be willing to go for a PrC.

I'll certainly consider it along with any other suggestions and builds.

[Krobar]

A number of years back I went with a 1st level monk, that multiclassed to Cleric of Kord after an alignment change.

That character was a lot of fun, and is actually the name I chose for my handle here.

There is surely a better way to go about it than I did, but that was my first 3.0 character and I was still in the learning process, after playing 2nd Edition for over 10 years. There's nothing like beating a hydra to death with your fists.

FEEL THE POWER OF KORD!

[Kelb_Panthera]

Reaping mauler isn't too bad if you can get the DM to agree that clever wrestling as a prerequisite and improved grapple as a bonus feat granted by the class are a result of a dyslexic designer.

Swapping them means that you get the bonus from clever wrestling regardless of your size and you don't get a wasted bonus feat (no serious grappler gets to level 5 without picking up improved grapple).

[Malak'ai]

Reaping mauler isn't too bad if you can get the DM to agree that clever wrestling as a prerequisite and improved grapple as a bonus feat granted by the class are a result of a dyslexic designer.

Swapping them means that you get the bonus from clever wrestling regardless of your size and you don't get a wasted bonus feat (no serious grappler gets to level 5 without picking up improved grapple).

That would be a pretty easy arguement. It seems more logical to have it that way around.

[samuraijaques]

I have just the build for you. I spent a lot of time researching this to make a grappler that wasn't terrible. I think he turned out pretty well and I had a lot of fun with him.

The idea was to make a grappler that didn't use shapechange, summons, telekinesis or natural weapons. I wanted a big strong guy that wrapped his hands around people and strangled them like a real man.

The final build looks like this

Half-giant lion totem barbarian 1/ monk 2/ mantled psiwarrior 17

Barbarian is in there for improved grab which is invaluable in this build as it allows you to grapple creatures of up to medium size without being considered grappled yourself, additionally, you can grapple more than one creature which opens up a lot of combat maneuvers for you.

Monk is in there for the extra feats. Just the standard 2 level dip for imp. grapple, combat reflexes and imp. unarmed strike. Basic, but crucial to the build.

Psiwarrior was something I didn't think about for a long time. There are a lot of really really useful psiwarrior powers for grappling like grip of iron and the ever useful expansion. In addition, they get a decent amount of other useful powers to help you be effective outside of combat. Now, a lot of people will say that ardent is better but in this case I actually lean towards the psiwarrior for the easier access to the most important powers that you need, and because of the feat talashtora.

Talashtora stacks your monk and psiwarrior levels for determining unarmed damage, monk AC, bonus movement speed and flurry of blows, it's what makes the build.

as for feats, these are the ones i chose.

-Psionic Meditation: for use with incarnum feats
-Multigrab: for maximizing your effectiveness in combat
-Greater Multigrab: same
-Monastic Training: pre-req for talashtora
-Talashtora: the backbone of the build, benefits listed above
-Azure talent: for infinite PP with psycarnum infusion for recharging between fights
-Psycarnum infusion: use psycarnum infusion to fill azure talent, thus gaining free pp to spend on bestow power. never start a fight without full PP. helps make up for the psiwarriors ridiculously low PP pool
-Shape Soul Meld (girallon arms): extra untyped grapple bonus, cant go wrong
-midnight augmentation: makes your PP regeneration more efficient
-martial study (mountain hammer): incredibly useful, and a pre-req
-martial stance (crushing weight of the mountain): gives you a constrict, extra damage is awesome, and believe we it adds up a lot, plus it gives you access to rending constriction
-rending constriction: TEAR PEOPLE IN HALF!!! with your bare hands no less. absolutely brutal. do it, you know you want to.

and that's not even all the feats you would get.

important powers
-grip of iron: you are going to want as many things that gives bonuses to grapple as possible, this is a good one
-expansion: absolutely invaluable, wrestle titans, and win
-strength of my enemy: massive untyped bonus to strength, plus, makes your opponent weaker, 2 for 1.

Important items
-gloves of titan's grip: +8 to grapple checks 3/day
-amulet of natural attacks with the hooking enchantment on it: +4 to grapple checks with your natural weapons
-antimagic trap: my personal favourite. does not need to be set, simply activates if it sees movement. keep it in your pocket, drop it on the ground and make yourself an anitmagic wrestling ring. strangle invincible mages and feed them their own legs. cocky bastards

At level 20 you end up with a +80-90 to your grapple checks and can effectively wrestle anything and win, in addition, you have a bunch of powers to help you out and infinite PP to play with. Oh, and you have a +16 BaB so you get your 4th attack

Without expansion on you deal 3d8 damage with an unarmed strike

In a grapple, with a full attack flurry you deal

15d8 (unarmed strike) + 10d6 + 1.5x5xStr (constrict) + 4d6 + 1.5xStr (rending constriction) + 5xStr

Possible changes would be to take some levels in unarmed swordsage and get some of the more awesome setting sun maneuvers. Or you could go for something with a higher base attack progression and take that route.

Hope it helps

Cheers

EDIT: additionally, DON'T TAKE REAPING MAULER. it's terribad. totally not worth it. the abilities it gives you have poorly scaling DCs and generally wont even matter.

[Malak'ai]

Build looks really good... Only one problem... It'd be PHB Races only (Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, Gnome, Half Orc and Half Elf). So while it looks like a route that would get me what I wanted, it'd be veto'd right out for the race :smallfrown:.

I'd also have to explain Psionic rules to most of the rest of the group :smalltongue:.

[Malak'ai]

Any more advice or builds?

As a side note, do Giant Size then Enlarge Person stack?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Any more advice or builds?

As a side note, do Giant Size then Enlarge Person stack?

No they don't. Rather they couldn't even if you could stack multiple size increases. Giant size changes your size to the one listed on the table. The size you were before the spell took effect is irrelevant.

[Malak'ai]

That's why I asked with them in that order. Have Giant Size cast on you, changing to Huge (or Gargantuan or Colossal depending on level of caster) then having Enlarge Person cast on you to take to the next category).
Since they don't stack, it's a moot point... Just something I thought of and wasn't sure... Couldn't find it on the SRD.

[Answerer]

I don't like that build much at all. You're losing a lot of BAB, which is really important. If you're going to go the Psionics route...

Barbarian 2 can get you Improved Grapple (Bear Totem, replaces Uncanny Dodge), and merely dipping Monk for unarmed strike damage isn't worth it. If you're going Tashalatora, just take it; you don't need Monk levels. Psychic Warriors are really good at creating natural weapons anyway, which means their damage in a grapple is probably better than a Monk anyway.

I agree that grip of iron and expansion are crucial, but full BAB is also crucial. Two solutions present themselves: Psychic Warrior 4/Slayer 10 gets you 13/14 BAB, 13th-level Psychic Warrior manifesting, and a bunch of Slayer's very-nice defenses. Alternatively, War Mind 10 (or even War Mind/Slayer of some combination) loses no BAB, though the manifesting is not as good and Sweeping Strike is kind of wasted on a Grappler. Tashalatora is also somewhat limited since you can only apply it to a single class (most likely Slayer here).

Anyway, LA +1/Barbarian 2/Psychic Warrior 4/Slayer 10 is a 17th-level build, has BAB +16/+11/+6/+1, 13th-level manifesting, can pretty trivially count as Gargantuan for grappling. So a grapple check of 1d20+32+Str. That means you can probably keep up with any Core monster short of the Tarrasque as far as grappling is concerned (the Colossal Monstrous Scorpion has +52; as far as I can tell it's second only to the Tarrasque's +81 – you'll have a hard time actually hitting +52 but you should be better off than hoping for a nat-20 on your side or a nat-1 on its side). Your damage is considerably less than that of a Cultist, and Martial Stance for Crushing Weight of the Mountain (IIRC) for Constrict damage is a really good idea.

[Keld Denar]

Its under the magic stacking rules. Multiple increases to size never stack.

Edit: you only REALLY need 11 levels of effective monk with Tash. That gives you greater flurry. Past that, all you get is a small about of armor and a couple if UAS boosts. The UAS boosts can be cheated with a Monks Belt, which gives you level 16 UAS. That should be enough after you stack on size bonuses and all that.

Slayer would give you the best result in the long run, but would be saggy in the mid levels where your UAS base damage would be 1d6 medium until like, ECL 9-10.

[Pickford]

Reaping mauler isn't too bad if you can get the DM to agree that clever wrestling as a prerequisite and improved grapple as a bonus feat granted by the class are a result of a dyslexic designer.

Swapping them means that you get the bonus from clever wrestling regardless of your size and you don't get a wasted bonus feat (no serious grappler gets to level 5 without picking up improved grapple).

Well, they would if you were part or whole monk before and went with stunning fist. Actually the class looks custom built for a monk seeing as devastating grapple and sleeper lock function off your wisdom modifier and everything works only in light/no armor.

[Answerer]

Edit: you only REALLY need 11 levels of effective monk with Tash. That gives you greater flurry. Past that, all you get is a small about of armor and a couple if UAS boosts. The UAS boosts can be cheated with a Monks Belt, which gives you level 16 UAS. That should be enough after you stack on size bonuses and all that.

Slayer would give you the best result in the long run, but would be saggy in the mid levels where your UAS base damage would be 1d6 medium until like, ECL 9-10.
Very good points.

I also feel like Shou Disciple and Shiba Protector deserve mention here somewhere, but I'm not overly familiar with either class.


Well, they would if you were part or whole monk before and went with stunning fist. Actually the class looks custom built for a monk seeing as devastating grapple and sleeper lock function off your wisdom modifier and everything works only in light/no armor.
What does this have to do with the line you quoted? "They would..." what? Anyway, Reaping Mauler is a pretty bad class all around... kinda like Monk, so I guess they go together that way. Certainly doesn't mean Monk is a good choice for entry.

[Pickford]

Very good points.

I also feel like Shou Disciple and Shiba Protector deserve mention here somewhere, but I'm not overly familiar with either class.


What does this have to do with the line you quoted? "They would..." what? Anyway, Reaping Mauler is a pretty bad class all around... kinda like Monk, so I guess they go together that way. Certainly doesn't mean Monk is a good choice for entry.

(no serious grappler gets to level 5 without picking up improved grapple).

That part. i.e. they would get to level 5 without improved grapple if they were a monk who picked up stunning fist at level 1 instead and intended to become a reaping mauler.

Sorry if the extra text made what I was typing confusing.

And for the exact reason I mentioned, that their abilities are dependent on wisdom, already a desire monk stat. If you went into it with a barbarian/fighter the saves would, by default, be much lower and as everyone else is so fond of saying would inflict them with MAD.

[Lord_Gareth]

If you're going to be punching in a Grapple, I'd suggest investing in a necklace of natural attacks to boost your damage and/or add beneficial properties to your punch.

[Malak'ai]

If you're going to be punching in a Grapple, I'd suggest investing in a necklace of natural attacks to boost your damage and/or add beneficial properties to your punch.

That's already on the shopping list :smallbiggrin:. Maybe try and convince who ever DM's to allow me to use those Monk Hand Wrap thingys as well, if they don't conflict.

EDIT: Also, to everyone debating the pros/cons of the Reaping Mauler, as I said, I was only considering it, it's not essential.
The only reason I was even considering it was that no one, in any group I've played in, has ever used it. I just thought it could be a (very poor and dull) feather I could put in my cap.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why not use one of the builds in the black blood cultist handbook?

Fighter 2, Barbarian 3, Scaled Horror 5, Black Blood Cultist 5, Psychic Warrior 2?

Or Fighter 4, Ranger 1, Barbarian 2, Black Blood Cultist 10, Suel Archanamach 3.

[Answerer]

(no serious grappler gets to level 5 without picking up improved grapple).

That part. i.e. they would get to level 5 without improved grapple if they were a monk who picked up stunning fist at level 1 instead and intended to become a reaping mauler.
Yeah, and then they are not a grappler until they get Improved Grapple. It's just not worth attempting without the feat.


Sorry if the extra text made what I was typing confusing.
You can delete the bits you aren't responding to.


And for the exact reason I mentioned, that their abilities are dependent on wisdom, already a desire monk stat. If you went into it with a barbarian/fighter the saves would, by default, be much lower and as everyone else is so fond of saying would inflict them with MAD.
Yeah, that's because Reaping Mauler is a bad class. Those Wisdom-dependent abilities are pretty poor anyway.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'd suggest that a grappler gear up in the heaviest armor they can manage... Full plate, for sure!

[Pickford]

Yeah, and then they are not a grappler until they get Improved Grapple. It's just not worth attempting without the feat.


You can delete the bits you aren't responding to.


Yeah, that's because Reaping Mauler is a bad class. Those Wisdom-dependent abilities are pretty poor anyway.

Yeah, but if we're takling about someone who wants to grapple which seems suboptimal vs non-casters anyway

Being able to make someone helpless the first round (and/or kill them by the 3rd) is not bad if that's what they really really want to do.

[Malak'ai]

Why not use one of the builds in the black blood cultist handbook?

Fighter 2, Barbarian 3, Scaled Horror 5, Black Blood Cultist 5, Psychic Warrior 2?

Or Fighter 4, Ranger 1, Barbarian 2, Black Blood Cultist 10, Suel Archanamach 3.

As I said earlier, I will read through the PrC when I borrow the book, and that with a quick look at the handbook, I did think it was good, but not exactly the direction I was looking in going. Plus the prereqs are very steep :smalleek:.

[Pickford]

If you're going to be punching in a Grapple, I'd suggest investing in a necklace of natural attacks to boost your damage and/or add beneficial properties to your punch.

Necklace of Natural Attacks doesn't apply to unarmed attacks, just natural weapons...which a Barbarian doesn't have.

So that's not going to do anything but cost you money.

[Answerer]

Pickford, you have that backward. Unarmed Strikes can always be affected as if they were natural weapons. It is a special property of the Monk that they can be treated as manufactured. See magic fang vs. magic weapon:


The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon. (The spell does not change an unarmed strike’s damage from nonlethal damage to lethal damage.)
If this could affect only a Monk's unarmed strike, worrying about lethal vs. nonlethal would be nonsensical.

More importantly:

You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang). A monk’s unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell.

Clearly, all unarmed strikes can receive spells and effects as if they were natural weapons. Only a Monk's can receive spells and effects as if they were manufactured weapons.

[Lord_Gareth]

Magic Fang
Transmutation
Level: Drd 1, Rgr 1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Living creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

Magic fang gives one natural weapon of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon. (The spell does not change an unarmed strike’s damage from nonlethal damage to lethal damage.)

Magic fang can be made permanent with a permanency spell.

> Spell only affects Natural Weapons
> Calls out Fist as a Natural Weapon
> Reminds you that it does not change the damage type.

Prosecution rests, Pickford.

[Malak'ai]

Necklace of Natural Attacks doesn't apply to unarmed attacks, just natural weapons...which a Barbarian doesn't have.

So that's not going to do anything but cost you money.


Pickford, you have that backward. Unarmed Strikes can always be affected as if they were natural weapons. It is a special property of the Monk that they can be treated as manufactured. See magic fang vs. magic weapon:


If this could affect only a Monk's unarmed strike, worrying about lethal vs. nonlethal would be nonsensical.

More importantly:


Clearly, all unarmed strikes can receive spells and effects as if they were natural weapons. Only a Monk's can receive spells and effects as if they were manufactured weapons.


> Spell only affects Natural Weapons
> Calls out Fist as a Natural Weapon
> Reminds you that it does not change the damage type.

Prosecution rests, Pickford.

I was just about to ask how your bare fist is not considered a Natural Weapon... But I think Answerer and Lord_Gareth have already pointed that out.

[Pickford]

Pickford, you have that backward. Unarmed Strikes can always be affected as if they were natural weapons. It is a special property of the Monk that they can be treated as manufactured. See magic fang vs. magic weapon:

If this could affect only a Monk's unarmed strike, worrying about lethal vs. nonlethal would be nonsensical.

Except that explicitly lists fists (which are not natural weapons). Also, natural weapons, unlike unarmed attacks, never draw an attack of opportunity.



http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Natural_Weapons
A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.


Whereas unarmed attacks explicitly 'do' draw Attacks of Opportunity precisely because a character is NOT armed.



http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/actionsInCombat.html

Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.

An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).


The defense just got demolished.


More importantly:

Clearly, all unarmed strikes can receive spells and effects as if they were natural weapons. Only a Monk's can receive spells and effects as if they were manufactured weapons.

Magic Fang works on normal unarmed strikes because it specifically lists fists. That's why.

With the exception of monk allowing spells and effects that work on natural weapons, the 'natural weapon' is entirely the provenance of monsters or spells.

[Answerer]

Pickford, I'm not going to argue with you. You have convinced no one that you are correct. You're welcome to continue believing what you will, welcome to continue posting your belief as you like, but I strongly doubt you'll ever convince anyone that you are right. Magic fang and magic weapon are clearly describing how things work rather than creating exceptions. None of your quotes ever says unarmed strikes cannot be targeted by spells and effects that affect natural weapons. And you linked DandDwiki of all things.

Unarmed Strikes are very strange natural weapons that do not behave at all like other natural weapons for most purposes. But for spells and other effects, they are.

I particularly like how you assume magic fang and magic weapon are a case of specific trumps general, but won't make the same assumption for unarmed strikes vis a vis the general rule that natural weapons do not provoke. The word "never" that you use is cute too; you'll not the rules don't actually use it.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The defense just got demolished.

To make sure you see it, I'll repost this here:

To quote the System Reference Document, from the text of Unarmed Strike, in the Weapons (spoilers: there's a reason for this) section of the book. I can't believe no one has brought up this text, which settles the argument entirely and indisputably.



Unarmed Strike

A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike.

Unless you have something which could possibly override this explicit statement that unarmed strikes qualify as weapons, could we please progress?

[Kelb_Panthera]

To make sure you see it, I'll repost this here:

To quote the System Reference Document, from the text of Unarmed Strike, in the Weapons (spoilers: there's a reason for this) section of the book. I can't believe no one has brought up this text, which settles the argument entirely and indisputably.



Unless you have something which could possibly override this explicit statement that unarmed strikes qualify as weapons, could we please progress?

You misunderstand. Noone's saying that an unarmed strike isn't a weapon. The contention is that it's not a natural weapon; which is correct. It's a simple, light weapon.

Magic fang makes an explicit allowance for unarmed strikes, not evidence that unarmed strikes are natural weapons.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

You misunderstand. Noone's saying that an unarmed strike isn't a weapon. The contention is that it's not a natural weapon; which is correct. It's a simple, light weapon.

Magic fang makes an explicit allowance for unarmed strikes, not evidence that unarmed strikes are natural weapons.

Sorry, my bad. In the other thread he effectively was making the claim that it's not a weapon.

But yes. It is not a natural weapon. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a) Mainly because it allows iterative attacks, which is apparently the distinction.

[Kazyan]

Even though optimization is usually in wedlock with Lion Spirit Totem, Bear Spirit Totem gets you Improved Grab. You can pick up Pounce later with...I think it's one of the bezerker lodge feats? Only works with light weapons, but unarmed strikes are light.

[Pickford]

Sorry, my bad. In the other thread he effectively was making the claim that it's not a weapon.

But yes. It is not a natural weapon. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a) Mainly because it allows iterative attacks, which is apparently the distinction.

Edit: You have the concept reversed. Iterative attacks do not determine if something is or isn't a natural weapon, being a natural weapon determines if they use or don't use iterative attacks. Natural weapons can not, unarmed strikes can.

Light weapon doesn't mean weapon. I know it's confusing, but it describes 'how' it is wielded.

Pg. 113
"Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
Light: A light weapon is easier to use in one's off hand than one-handed ewapon is, and it can be used while grappling. A light weapon is used in one hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus (if any) to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or one-half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only. An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon."

That last sentence is to clue you in that unarmed strike are to be considered a light weapon, but that doesn't 'make' it a weapon.

Also, unarmed strike is not a weapon as D&D defines them. It's only treated as one under certain circumstances and for certain purposes. In the same way that a monk's unarmed strike (and no one else's) is a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for purposes of spells ehancements and improvements.

And D&D defines unarmed!
"unarmed attack: A melee attack made with no weapon in hand."
"unarmed strike: A successful blow, typically dealing non-lethal damage, from a character attacking without weapons. A monk can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike, but others deal nonlethal damage."

To summarize:
1) Only the monk unarmed strike is actually considered a weapon (manufactured and natural) for the purposes of spell effects and a light weapon for combat modifiers that use light weapons.

2) Other characters can get Improved Unarmed Strike to be considered 'armed' when unarmed, but their attacks are not weapons for the purposes of spell effects or being sundered. (i.e. you can't cut their hands off, sorry.), though they 'are' considered light weapons for combat modifier purposes.

3) Despite being 'considered' a weapon for extremely limited purposes, unarmed attacks do NOT use a weapon and thus require no weapon proficiency whatsoever. And if you 'must' argue that they are, as shown above monk's are excluded from having to have a specific proficiency because 'their' unarmed strikes count as natural weapons and creatures are automatically proficient in their natural weapons.

Yes, it's convoluted, but it hangs together.