[PF+3.X] Casters running marathons

[Darius Kane]

Three questions:
1. How many level appropriate combat encounters in one day can solo a decently optimized (but not overpowered) T1/T2 caster that isn't build specifically to have more spells or at-will abilities and doesn't have any equipment? No rests in between, the caster goes into the next fight as is, only his HP are restored and any bad effects removed (level or ability drains, negative levels, stun, paralysis, stuff like that).
2. How would you build a caster to last long?
3. In the above mentioned situation, how much more useful do dual-casting builds become (with no early entry tricks)? Is bigger versatility and resources worth the potential loss of highest level spells?

[Jack_Simth]

Three questions:
1. How many level appropriate combat encounters in one day can solo a decently optimized (but not overpowered) T1/T2 caster that isn't build specifically to have more spells or at-will abilities and doesn't have any equipment? No rests in between, the caster goes into the next fight as is, only his HP are restored and any bad effects removed (level or ability drains, negative levels, stun, paralysis, stuff like that).
2. How would you build a caster to last long?
3. In the above mentioned situation, how much more useful do dual-casting builds become (with no early entry tricks)? Is bigger versatility and resources worth the potential loss of highest level spells?
1) Depends on the level, build, and opponents. At the "right" level & build, you can keep that up almost indefinitely, by way of a quick PaO / Shapechange into a sufficiently good combat form.
2) Equipment helps - generally, though, such a caster is built via reserve feats or Persistent Spells; if we start with, say, a Wizard-10/Incantatrix-10 who persists Xorn Movement, Ghost Form, Superior Invisibility, and Shapechange, then picks up the Flyby Attack and Summon Elemental reserve feats, then we really can go all day vs. most opponents.
3) With a little work, you can do better without them.

[Darius Kane]

The gladiators are up to 20th level.
I said "any bad effects are removed", but I totally forgot about "good effects". Hmm...
PaO and Shapechange aren't a problem (replaced by Giant's homebrew polymorph rules).
I dunno if I should have spell effects removed together with bad effects after a battle or if I should leave the beneficial effects. If unused spells are carried over to the next battle, then why not still active spells? Also, the caster is sacrificing resources (2 feats) for the benefit after all.
The casters will be able to persist only low level spells (in my games you have to be able to cast the metamagicked spell with the adjustment, even if you reduce the cost to 0, which means only up to 3rd level spells can be persisted) so it's not that big of a deal, I think.

[Togo]

A lot depends on whether the casters know they are going to be running a marathon. In practice, I find that telling them after two encounters that they're facing a very long day can be too late for them to be reliably effective for the rest of it.

I don't doubt you can build a caster to be durable, but those aren't the builds I see bandied around,

[Darius Kane]

The casters in question will know that they'll have to save spells for later battles. It will be at least 4 per day, because that's the assumed/suggested number of encounters in an adventuring day, but I'll probably make it more, like 5 or 6 maybe.

[Silva Stormrage]

A cleric with undead minions could last VERY long, depending on wether or not he gets equipment to control the undead and doesn't get any to bring them in. A level 20 cleric could end up having several permanent undead minions that can all cast or melee as well as pc's. Depending on what he is allowed to start with.

DMM persist will help in melee even if you rule that divine power can't be persisted (I believe you could get a domain for it), divine favor and a few others are still useful.

[Arbane]

The witch I play in a Pathfinder game will be over here in the corner radiating smugness. :smallwink:

(Witches have a weaker spell-list than Wizards or Clerics at level 20, but hexes are an inexhaustible supply of pain for their enemies.)

[Carth]

Well, an incantatrix applying persist and other metamagic to the dragon breath spell is set to do up to hundreds of damage every 1d4 rounds, dooming anything without evasion. If you really build around using that spell the damage gets insane. Unless you forbid metamagic reducers, this is still possible without metamagic effect. A wizard5/incantatrix10/Halruaan elder5 and arcane thesis gets -2 to all metamagic on dragon breath, and -3 to two particular metamagic feats of their choosing. Edit: in fact, Pathfinder even gives you another -1 to throw at any metamagic via magical lineage.

[Darius Kane]

Anything more?

[raspberrybadger]

At highish level, druids can go all day pretty well too. You've got enough slots to keep up 10 min/lev buffs just fine, as well as the hour/lev buffs. You can be wildshaped all day. You can hit hard, be hard to damage, and solve the odder problems with spells as needed. You can cure yourself for quite some time with your lower level slots, or there are ways to get fast healing (and in PF, 12 level and onward you can have regen as a huge plant, though I'm not sure there are any fun ones in the beastiary that actually have regen).

[Slipperychicken]

A cleric with undead minions could last VERY long, depending on wether or not he gets equipment to control the undead and doesn't get any to bring them in. A level 20 cleric could end up having several permanent undead minions that can all cast or melee as well as pc's. Depending on what he is allowed to start with.


He can bring in some scrolls of Animate Dead or Animate Dread Warrior, if he's allowed to reanimate his opponents.

Astral Projection lets you use consumables with impunity (It should more than pay off the 1005gp price tag, which you only pay if you don't get it from a planar-bound Nightmare for some bizarre reason), as you can re-use them with another casting.

[Darius Kane]

He can bring in some scrolls of Animate Dead or Animate Dread Warrior, if he's allowed to reanimate his opponents.
He can't bring scrolls.


Astral Projection lets you use consumables with impunity (It should more than pay off the 1005gp price tag, which you only pay if you don't get it from a planar-bound Nightmare for some bizarre reason), as you can re-use them with another casting.
There are no consumables to use. And I'm not sure if Astral Projection is even useful here, because the caster is supposed to participate in the encounters personally. I didn't specify it in the OP, but this is about an arena style game, so the caster can't just send an Astral Projection into the arena and because he can't leave the arena without forfeiting the match he won't be able to cast it (30 minute casting time).

[Fouredged Sword]

I imagine that a caster could force cage his way into a suitable hard to get box, the call a nightmare, employ it all day from inside the cube to project him out of the cube into the rest of the arena.

[Darius Kane]

I assume you mean Planar Binding? Hiding in a cage for over 10 minutes would be considered forfeiting the match.