OotS as opposite alignments

[WoLong]

I was thinking of what the OoTs party would be like were they each on the opposite end of the alignment scale. (Good/Evil, not Lawful/Chaotic.)

Roy Greenhilt: Lawful Evil Wizard
Roy is a power-hungry wizard, and thanks to his excellent leadership and genius, he easily takes the power he wants. He has a host of minions, both humanoid and otherwise, who he has gained the loyalty of through various means, and he may be a warlord. He has a strict system of rules, and will not hesitate to punish most of his minions if they violate any of them. He has however, on occasion shown mercy to someone he liked or found useful, (just as Good Roy occasionally commits an evil act, i.e stranding Elan.) In general, though, he has very little mercy or compassion for the majority of people.

Elan: Chaotic Evil Fighter
Elan is a brute who will happily take from anyone to provide for himself. He enjoys inflicting pain on others, but mostly just wants to take from them by force. Due to his lack of intelligence and wisdom, he often picks a fight where he may not win, and may die early because of it. However, he has shown skill in talking himself out of dangerous situations.

Belkar Bitterleaf: Chaotic Good Ranger/Cleric
Belkar is a healer and crusader who seeks to be as much of a positive influence on the world as he can. He avoids violence when possible, preferring to heal and seek diplomatic solutions, but he will fight to protect the life of another. He will use violence only when he has exhausted every other possible option. In very rare cases, dealing with the most evil brutes, he may advocate killing them out of anger, even when there are other options available

Haley Starshine: Chaotic Neutral/Evil Rogue
While Haley protects and has compassion for her family and close friends, she cares little for anyone else. She will steal from both the rich and poor, but prefers not to kill, although she has murdered before and will not lose sleep if she does it again. She gives no heed to rules, and ultimately puts herself above everyone else. As a result, she has amassed quite a bit of wealth.

Vaarsuvius: Alignment: ???
This Vaaruvius, similar to the other Vaarsuvius, is a bit of a flip-flop when it comes to alignment. He will usually not commit very evil acts, but will rarely put himself in danger for others. Knowledge and power are his primary motivations, and they often come before morality. He has, on occasion, adopted a more ethical stance, but he usually reverts back to his previous behavior not long after.

Durkon:
I'm afraid I can't successfully make an evil Durkon, as Good Durkon's character is too consistent with his moral code for me to envision his behavior without it. Evil Durkon would likely be a completely unrecognizable character.

[KillianHawkeye]

One question: Why is Evil Roy suddenly a wizard?? :smallconfused:

[Shred-Bot]

I would think that evil Elan would be a multiclass fighter/rogue/sorcerer who specializes in enchantment spells, no?

[WoLong]

One question: Why is Evil Roy suddenly a wizard?? :smallconfused:

Because I surmised that good Roy primarily became a fighter to honor his family tradition, and that he had a high enough INT to pull off being a wizard. I also figured a wizard fit the power hungry authoritarian better than a fighter.

[Gift Jeraff]

LE Roy would be a Tarquin minus the love for theatrics.

[Dr.Epic]

Durkon:
I'm afraid I can't successfully make an evil Durkon, as Good Durkon's character is too consistent with his moral code for me to envision his behavior without it. Evil Durkon would likely be a completely unrecognizable character.

Durkon is a loyal follow of Thor. Just make him a loyal follower of Hel or Loki. Done.

[Loki_42]

How is this different than just an alternate take on the Linear Guild?

[WoLong]

How is this different than just an alternate take on the Linear Guild?

The linear guild aren't really the evil opposites of the OoTs. Roy and Thog would be nothing alike even if they had the same alignment. Same with Haley-Sabine, Elan-Nale, and Varsuuvius-Zzdittri. And Durkon/Hilgya Belkar/YukYuk were the same alignments.

So in other words the linear guild is just a group of people who happen to be mostly different alignments than OoTs.

[jedipilot24]

How can Durkon be the same alignment as Hilgya? Durkon is an LG cleric of the NG (with chaotic tendancies) Thor. Hilgya is a CN cleric of Loki, who is NE/CE.

In fact, in Deities and Demigods, Thor is actually described as CG but has to be NG (Chaotic) in the world of Oots as clerics have to be within 1 step of their deities alignment and Durkon fits LG almost to a T, meaning that Oots Thor is NG, though still tending toward the Chaotic end of things (which Durkon even lampshades at least twice).

Hilgya, meanwhile, ran away from her family and her obligations and put her own desires first, which is classic CN. Durkon's reaction to finding out is entirely fitting with an LG alignment for him.

[weckar]

The linear guild aren't really the evil opposites of the OoTs. Roy and Thog would be nothing alike even if they had the same alignment. Same with Haley-Sabine, Elan-Nale, and Varsuuvius-Zzdittri. And Durkon/Hilgya Belkar/YukYuk were the same alignments.

So in other words the linear guild is just a group of people who happen to be mostly different alignments than OoTs.

Roy's most unique stat as a fighter is his INT. Thog inverses that, becoming his opposite.

Though not specifically stated, it is heavily implied that both Haley and Sabine adventure largely because they have a debt to pay off. Add to that that they are both involved with the bard-analogue of their group and stand on opposite ends of the Position vs. Damage rogue scale.... it makes them decent enough opposites.

Elan-Nale. Not only are they the evil-twin trope played so straight that it curves back again under its own mass, the effectiveness of Elan's dramatics versus the relative incompetency of Nale's practicality maxes them excellent opposites.

The other three members of the Order have had multiple opposite numbers, but:

Durkon: Each of his opposites has grossly crossed at least one tenet of a societal or religious creed. Now this may not directly seem to oppose Durkon, unless you stop and think that this is an indication of how much value he attaches to those things.

Belkar: Is probably one of the most straight examples, as where he fights for bloodshed his opposites were known to fight for honor and vengeance. LG to his CE. The inversal increases when you stop to realize that halflings are known to be nearly universally Good, while the opposite holds for Kobolds.

V: He's hard to mirror, but his waterfall of words versus Z's silent attitude is certainly a good start. I'm pretty sure there is also an opposition in their preferred and banned spell schools, but do not hold me to that one.
If anything, Xykon is V's straightest opposite number. They both enjoy magical power but where studious V gains it through effort, the sorcerer Xykon has it... because he has it. This reflects their general tone on the seriousness scale as well, and you want to anger neither.


Just to make a point: there are many ways to make an opposite, and mr. B. sure did do that.

[WoLong]

How can Durkon be the same alignment as Hilgya? Durkon is an LG cleric of the NG (with chaotic tendancies) Thor. Hilgya is a CN cleric of Loki, who is NE/CE.

In fact, in Deities and Demigods, Thor is actually described as CG but has to be NG (Chaotic) in the world of Oots as clerics have to be within 1 step of their deities alignment and Durkon fits LG almost to a T, meaning that Oots Thor is NG, though still tending toward the Chaotic end of things (which Durkon even lampshades at least twice).

Hilgya, meanwhile, ran away from her family and her obligations and put her own desires first, which is classic CN. Durkon's reaction to finding out is entirely fitting with an LG alignment for him.

She seemed to have been being well oppressed in her previous home, so this isn't proof that she's not Good.

However I was only referring to their alignment on the good/evil scale. But as you pointed out, she is not necessarily Good. I agree that it's highly unlikely that a good character (chaotic or otherwise) would be a cleric of Loki. However she is still not an evil opposite as I believe we both agree she is not evil. But I am not attempting to make mirror versions of the OotS cast, just speculating as to what they would be like with opposite alignments.

[JennTora]

Evil elan would still be a bard, evil roy still a fighter. Belkar would have a hard time being a cleric with a wisdom score normally reserved for lemmings. I don't think any of their classes would change just because their alignment's did. Basically just switch elan and belkar's personalities and you're damn close with those 2.
Roy's relationship with belkar would be more master servant than it already is, and he would be trying to force belkar to stop trying to help people...

[WoLong]

Evil elan would still be a bard, evil roy still a fighter. Belkar would have a hard time being a cleric with a wisdom score normally reserved for lemmings. I don't think any of their classes would change just because their alignment's did. Basically just switch elan and belkar's personalities and you're damn close with those 2.
Roy's relationship with belkar would be more master servant than it already is, and he would be trying to force belkar to stop trying to help people...

Why would evil Elan still be a bard, or evil Roy still be a fighter? I think their alignments would drastically affect what class they'd choose.

Also, I assumed Belkar's low wisdom is the cause of his evil disposition (or vice versa), and that scores like wisdom are not as set in stone in OotS, and can change as the character develops, without necessarily investing points in them upon leveling up.

[martianmister]

Why would evil Elan still be a bard, or evil Roy still be a fighter? I think their alignments would drastically affect what class they'd choose.

Why would they change their professions? Also, evil bards are awesome (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6226230&postcount=428):

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w192/pomchop/Image%20Games/SplicedE1.png

[The Pilgrim]

The existence of the Linear Guild makes this thread kind of superfluous.

[Math_Mage]

She seemed to have been being well oppressed in her previous home, so this isn't proof that she's not Good.

The part where she tries to poison him first kinda is, though.

[Ravens_cry]

Wouldn't the opposite alignment for Roy be CE? He's canonically LG after all.
I see him giving into his rage and frustration's a lot more.

[Kish]

The part where she tries to poison him first kinda is, though.
I'd say it establishes her as either evil or neutral with serious evil tendencies, and far out of the territory where good is even on the table, m'self. Especially since she apparently could have run away at any time. (And if Rich had wanted to depict her husband abusing her, he could have.)

[hamishspence]

Dungeon Crawling Fools does say that the Linear Guild characters are

"Not just an evil version of each character, but the exact embodiment of everything their OOTS twin opposes. Not just opposites, but nemeses."

[Othniel Edden]

Why aren't any of these flipped on the chaotic/law axis?

[Math_Mage]

I'd say it establishes her as either evil or neutral with serious evil tendencies, and far out of the territory where good is even on the table, m'self. Especially since she apparently could have run away at any time. (And if Rich had wanted to depict her husband abusing her, he could have.)
Well, exactly.


Why aren't any of these flipped on the chaotic/law axis?
Because that's not what the OP's after. He wants evil versions, not total alignment flip, despite what the title says.

[Procyonpi]

Alignment flipped elan is Thog.

[Ravens_cry]

Because that's not what the OP's after. He wants evil versions, not total alignment flip, despite what the title says.

Then the thread title should be changed. It's misleading.

[LuPuWei]

Durkon:
I'm afraid I can't successfully make an evil Durkon, as Good Durkon's character is too consistent with his moral code for me to envision his behavior without it. Evil Durkon would likely be a completely unrecognizable character.

I think an Evil Durkon is a fascinating idea. The same unflappable, conservative dwarf with an unyielding dedication to an Evil moral code. As a right hand man to Roy, maybe second in command in charge of religion in an evil empire, I think he'd be quite terrifying, really. And where Durkon is usual careful in how he uses his powers, even for good, I can imagine Evil Durkon being totally unhesistant in laying down the law by calling on whatever Evil god it is he worships and unleashing Unholy terror on those who break even the most minor of rules... I almost wish I had an Evil Durkon avatar right now...

EDIT: Picture this: A long and dark corridor adorned with statues of evil deities on either side, on an undecorated throne of blackened stone sits Durkon, at one end. A young lad or lassie bound in chains is dragged before him and thrown at his feet. He raises his hammer skywards- purple lightning flashes down and his eyes glow yellow as he says- "Och, the Gods be sayin' tha tha be no way for a yungun' to be dressin'! Put on some clothes or yer family'll burn tonight." Thunderclap!

[JennTora]

Why would evil Elan still be a bard, or evil Roy still be a fighter? I think their alignments would drastically affect what class they'd choose.

Also, I assumed Belkar's low wisdom is the cause of his evil disposition (or vice versa), and that scores like wisdom are not as set in stone in OotS, and can change as the character develops, without necessarily investing points in them upon leveling up.

Redcloak has high wisdom. Being evil doesn't necessarily make you a short sighted fool. Elan has low wisdom, being good doesn't make you any wiser. Hell, Elan is more good than anyone else in the party, except maybe Durkon.

You're likely right about them not having to invest points as they level up, but there's no reason an alignment change would raise belkar's wisdom for no reason.

Elan loves being a bard, that wouldn't change because he was evil, whether Roy's love of being a fighter would change is more debatable, but Roy is someone who might become a general of some sort, so I rather picture him as a tarquin minus the theatrics, as someone said before.

[SowZ]

She seemed to have been being well oppressed in her previous home, so this isn't proof that she's not Good.

However I was only referring to their alignment on the good/evil scale. But as you pointed out, she is not necessarily Good. I agree that it's highly unlikely that a good character (chaotic or otherwise) would be a cleric of Loki. However she is still not an evil opposite as I believe we both agree she is not evil. But I am not attempting to make mirror versions of the OotS cast, just speculating as to what they would be like with opposite alignments.

Every action she takes which would indicate good or evil is a strong indicator of evil. She does not take a single action inconsistent with CE, and the majority of her actions are inconsistent with anything but evil. The only thing that makes her seem not evil is that she is cute.

Hilgya has three possible alignments. Chaotic-Neutral, Neutral-Evil, Chaotic-Evil.

She was in a society that had arranged marriages, sure, but her husband was a dedicated, nice guy. Yeah, we don't know him very well. But everything we are told about him shows that he was a nice guy. She didn't attack him in a fit of passion. She repeatedly attempted to manipulate and take advantage of his trust in her to murder him because she wasn't happy with her situation. The murder seems spiteful and cruel, not desperate. Running away was an act of desperation. Which she did do eventually. She was successful in running away. There is no reason for us to think she couldn't have run away from the beginning. She chose, rather than just running away, to murder her husband first. She has no remorse about it. She is a true blue CE.

Not to mention the plan to trick someone pure of heart into touching the sigil and the needless murder of the gate guardians that Hilgya participates in. We see her as an accomplice to murder, smiling happily.

[WoLong]

Redcloak has high wisdom. Being evil doesn't necessarily make you a short sighted fool. Elan has low wisdom, being good doesn't make you any wiser. Hell, Elan is more good than anyone else in the party, except maybe Durkon.

You're likely right about them not having to invest points as they level up, but there's no reason an alignment change would raise belkar's wisdom for no reason.

Elan loves being a bard, that wouldn't change because he was evil, whether Roy's love of being a fighter would change is more debatable, but Roy is someone who might become a general of some sort, so I rather picture him as a tarquin minus the theatrics, as someone said before.

I did not say that I believed a high wisdom is a necessary prerequisite for a good character, or that a low wisdom is a necessary prerequisite for an Evil character. I just attributed Belkar's low wisdom to a lifetime of thoughtless violence. I surmised that a good Belkar would be thoughtful and reflective, and thus would develop a high wisdom rather than a low wisdom by adulthood.

I suspect, were tarquin good, he may have been a Bard. But being a fighter rather than a bard was helpful in his rise to power. Evil Elan may still possess a love of the dramatic, but as a bard he would not be able to inflict pain and take what he wants as well as a fighter.

[WoLong]

I think an Evil Durkon is a fascinating idea. The same unflappable, conservative dwarf with an unyielding dedication to an Evil moral code. As a right hand man to Roy, maybe second in command in charge of religion in an evil empire, I think he'd be quite terrifying, really. And where Durkon is usual careful in how he uses his powers, even for good, I can imagine Evil Durkon being totally unhesistant in laying down the law by calling on whatever Evil god it is he worships and unleashing Unholy terror on those who break even the most minor of rules... I almost wish I had an Evil Durkon avatar right now...

EDIT: Picture this: A long and dark corridor adorned with statues of evil deities on either side, on an undecorated throne of blackened stone sits Durkon, at one end. A young lad or lassie bound in chains is dragged before him and thrown at his feet. He raises his hammer skywards- purple lightning flashes down and his eyes glow yellow as he says- "Och, the Gods be sayin' tha tha be no way for a yungun' to be dressin'! Put on some clothes or yer family'll burn tonight." Thunderclap!

His religion is based on his love of Thor. I can hardly imagine him having a similar devotion to a god without being good.

But then again, being evil wouldn't necessarily prevent him from feeling devoted to a god. Obviously it does not do that universally in either OotS or DnD.

[WoLong]

Then the thread title should be changed. It's misleading.

I said so in the first sentence.

[Andre]

I
While Haley protects and has compassion for her family and close friends, she cares little for anyone else. She will steal from both the rich and poor, but prefers not to kill, although she has murdered before and will not lose sleep if she does it again. She gives no heed to rules, and ultimately puts herself above everyone else. As a result, she has amassed quite a bit of wealth.


How is this the opposite of Haley?

[martianmister]

How is this the opposite of Haley?

She is Chaotic Evil-ish. :smallwink:

[WoLong]

How is this the opposite of Haley?

As I've said over and over, this is not supposed to be EVIL OPPOSITES like the linear guild, it's Haley with her alignment flipped. And since her alignment is already neutralish, she is obviously not all that different.

[SowZ]

As I've said over and over, this is not supposed to be EVIL OPPOSITES like the linear guild, it's Haley with her alignment flipped. And since her alignment is already neutralish, she is obviously not all that different.

Yeah, but that description perfectly fits Haley as is, although it is only focusing on the negative aspects of her personality.

[Kish]

Oh, I thought it was meant to be flipped.

That is, though WoLong can clarify, my impression was that WoLong would describe the official Haley thus:

While Haley has general compassion and believes in ideals such as robbing the rich to feed the poor, she often takes advantage of those close to her, such as her adventuring party. She steals from the rich by strong preference (though she has been known to rob poor-ish pickpockets who were attempting to rob her group members), is fairly ready to kill whenever she finds it justified, but it feeds her terrible self-esteem problem when she does kill, no matter how much her victim deserved it. She is ultimately far more willing to sacrifice herself than her code of ethics says she should be. As a result, her funds seesaw wildly; though she is currently on an up-swing after robbing her former Guild, shortly before that she went nearly broke funding a resistance movement in occupied Azure City (known to the occupiers as "Gobbotopia").
I should note that I don't agree with

Evil Elan may still possess a love of the dramatic, but as a bard he would not be able to inflict pain and take what he wants as well as a fighter.
Bards are not lacking in power, though Official-Elan isn't interested in maximizing the power of his class. If Elan was Chaotic Evil and cared about inflicting pain and taking what he wants, he's more likely to follow one of the Internet's bardic optimization templates--like Thog with his two-level fighter dip--than become a pure thug. I could see the described-personality Evil Elan as a thoroughly munchkined bard/Sublime Chord (likely one who followed a template to the letter because of lacking the brains to figure out how to be as powerful as he wanted to be himself), but I don't see why he'd become a fighter.

[WoLong]

I should note that I don't agree with
Bards are not lacking in power, though Official-Elan isn't interested in maximizing the power of his class. If Elan was Chaotic Evil and cared about inflicting pain and taking what he wants, he's more likely to follow one of the Internet's bardic optimization templates--like Thog with his two-level fighter dip--than become a pure thug. I could see the described-personality Evil Elan as a thoroughly munchkined bard/Sublime Chord (likely one who followed a template to the letter because of lacking the brains to figure out how to be as powerful as he wanted to be himself), but I don't see why he'd become a fighter.

I did not envision Evil Elan as particularly power-hungry, since Good (or Official) Elan doesn't seem to care much about power or competence either. And since Elan seems to be the party member that cares most about others, I imagined that evil Elan would be the most hateful alignment flipped character of them all. While bard is undoubtedly a round class, I can't imagine it giving as much hulk smash satisfaction as Fighter.

[Math_Mage]

WoLong, please read the forum rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1), particularly the section about double-posting.

As for Evil Elan, I view giving him a hulk smash mentality as at least as much a transformation of the character as making him power hungry. Not sure why I would prefer your interpretation to Kish's.

[WoLong]

WoLong, please read the forum rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1), particularly the section about double-posting.

As for Evil Elan, I view giving him a hulk smash mentality as at least as much a transformation of the character as making him power hungry. Not sure why I would prefer your interpretation to Kish's.

I envisioned Evil Elan as a more hateful character.

However, I'm not attempting to argue about what they might be. Feel free to suggest what you think they might be like if you disagree with my interpretations.