Best candidates for strongest/most lasting rulers

[Balor01]

So ... I am thinking that creatures that have longest lives will also be most powerful. A lvl 20 human wizard may have had 70 years of experience but a Dracolich had thousands (and took levels in wizard, cleric along with all the other silly bling).

So I think that most prominent rulers in an average DnD world would be creatures who can reach immortality. What creatures would that be, besides undead? What sort of restrictions would apply to them? Do you think dragons would be good candidates? Is rulership even interesting to one who is immortal (but can be killed)? I guess it is from perspective of greed and relative safety in numbers.

ITT: Best candidates for rulers in DnD settings.

[TaiLiu]

Warforged and Elan have no limit to their lifespan.

[limejuicepowder]

The other thing to consider is "--ism;" that is, racism, species-ism, etc. Most societies IRL as a whole resent being ruled by someone who didn't grow up in their society, or even someone who looks different than they do. Multiply that feeling several fold for someone who isn't even the same species. I think it would take a very enlightened society of (some humanoid) to want to be ruled by something like a dragon, or a warforged.

Elans would be a better candidate because they at least look like another species (humans) and wouldn't be objected to outright. This would give him time to establish himself as a good ruler before he inevitable had to reveal his non-human-ness.

[Balor01]

@limejuicepowder
Awesome input! I think one thing that can help you with this is Polymorph. And in my setting, there are no spells, higher then lvl 5, so ... thats cool.

So far I have a dragon ruling a city, but guy sort of popped up during a massive Apocalypse and brought The Religion of Bahamut to suffering masses. Since his arrival, he was constantly polymorphed into one of the High-tier priests of the City clergy. A complete shadow government.

I think that would be possible to pull off.

[Alleran]

I think it would take a very enlightened society of (some humanoid) to want to be ruled by something like a dragon, or a warforged.
If the dragon is doing it right, the society will never know they're being ruled by a dragon.

[Phelix-Mu]

Also, while liches do get into ruling places sometimes as it gives them resources and an outlet for possible megalomania, and good dragons might consider caring for needy people, many powerful creatures of wisdom and intellect are aware that ruling a country/nation is a terrible job. Many powerful creatures just want some privacy and time to pursue individual interests, and the life of a king, or even a dictator, can be very busy and filled with the day-to-day stuff of administering justice, making laws, counting tax revenue.

Now, lots of these responsibilities can be delegated to minions, but this runs counter to the paranoia/trust issues that many powerful beings suffer from. Think of the dysfunction that Stalin's rule over Russia saw; increasing paranoia had that particular premier executing even trusted confidantes in the end. Add in even low-level magic (detect lies, zone of truth, mind probe, etc) and the potential for distrust is multiplied several fold.

Finally, I would note that lots of powerful creatures simply think it is beneath them. Evil dragons in particular can be extremely proud, considering humanoids as little more than tasty snacks. While it would be convenient to rule over a kingdom of tasty snacks, a dragon can just nip over to the nearest village and save all the trouble of tricking the humanoids into liking him/her.

[yougi]

Well I have one of those plastic, bendy rulers, and it's lasted me for years. :smallbiggrin:


Also, while liches do get into ruling places sometimes as it gives them resources and an outlet for possible megalomania, and good dragons might consider caring for needy people, many powerful creatures of wisdom and intellect are aware that ruling a country/nation is a terrible job. Many powerful creatures just want some privacy and time to pursue individual interests, and the life of a king, or even a dictator, can be very busy and filled with the day-to-day stuff of administering justice, making laws, counting tax revenue.

Now, lots of these responsibilities can be delegated to minions, but this runs counter to the paranoia/trust issues that many powerful beings suffer from. Think of the dysfunction that Stalin's rule over Russia saw; increasing paranoia had that particular premier executing even trusted confidantes in the end. Add in even low-level magic (detect lies, zone of truth, mind probe, etc) and the potential for distrust is multiplied several fold.

Finally, I would note that lots of powerful creatures simply think it is beneath them. Evil dragons in particular can be extremely proud, considering humanoids as little more than tasty snacks. While it would be convenient to rule over a kingdom of tasty snacks, a dragon can just nip over to the nearest village and save all the trouble of tricking the humanoids into liking him/her.

I think that's the important part. The question should not be who would make the best ruler, but who wants to do it? It can't be for power or wealth (anyone who achieved immortality has little to gain from a nation's army and would amass more wealth through other ways). As such, I'm guessing religious leaders (who actually have something to gain from the masses, in terms of followers), fighter-types (easily manipulable, and gaining power and wealth is not as easy for them) or your average aristocrat, whose skill set is limited in other fields.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The most effective and lasting ruler a D&D world has ever know is the lord of the ninth, himself; Asmodeus. Since just after the beginning of time he's ruled an entire race of immortal creatures that are literally made of backstabbing and political skullduggery and he hasn't been toppled yet. The one time he disappeared for a while it was -his- idea.

If you're in it for the power, there's no better role-model. Of course, that means emulating a creature of pure, unadulterated evil but hey, whatever floats your boat.

If you want things like justice, mercy, and fair treatment, however, look elsewhere.

[Metahuman1]

The other thing to consider is "--ism;" that is, racism, species-ism, etc. Most societies IRL as a whole resent being ruled by someone who didn't grow up in their society, or even someone who looks different than they do. Multiply that feeling several fold for someone who isn't even the same species. I think it would take a very enlightened society of (some humanoid) to want to be ruled by something like a dragon, or a warforged.

Elans would be a better candidate because they at least look like another species (humans) and wouldn't be objected to outright. This would give him time to establish himself as a good ruler before he inevitable had to reveal his non-human-ness.

A Copper/Brass dragon would do it just for the looks on the entire capitol city's faces when after fifteen years or so there wonderful noble and beloved rule under whom they had known prosperity like never before did his big revel and said "By the way, I'm a dragon, though you ought to know."

[Pickford]

So ... I am thinking that creatures that have longest lives will also be most powerful. A lvl 20 human wizard may have had 70 years of experience but a Dracolich had thousands (and took levels in wizard, cleric along with all the other silly bling).

So I think that most prominent rulers in an average DnD world would be creatures who can reach immortality. What creatures would that be, besides undead? What sort of restrictions would apply to them? Do you think dragons would be good candidates? Is rulership even interesting to one who is immortal (but can be killed)? I guess it is from perspective of greed and relative safety in numbers.

ITT: Best candidates for rulers in DnD settings.

Imo you're conflating best with powerful, but meh.

Also long life does not equate to wise rule.

Now, if you happen to have an undead ruler, either they are so good at their job that nobody cares, they are so good at subjugation that nobody has yet been able to do anything about it, or nobody knows.

Any of which is possible if we're talking a lich (assuming this wasn't some specialist wizard who gave up illusion spells) as they could just constantly look like someone else. Granted, this wouldn't save them from exposure via a true seeing spell (nor any dragon in disguise). I suppose they could also just have an amazing mask ala Mission Impossible.

p.s. If just fishing for long-lived things, Green Star Adept from Complete Arcane.

[Alleran]

A Copper/Brass dragon would do it just for the looks on the entire capitol city's faces when after fifteen years or so there wonderful noble and beloved rule under whom they had known prosperity like never before did his big revel and said "By the way, I'm a dragon, though you ought to know."
Would the copper dragon make this (http://images.wikia.com/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/3/3e/Troll_Face.png) face when he shows them all his dragon form?

[ReluctantDragon]

If the dragon is doing it right, the society will never know they're being ruled by a dragon.

I heart this.

[Pandoras Folly]

The secret dragon ruler, over the centuries he balanced the power structure so it runs its self basically. He has a competent information gathering org that gives him daily reports, but he only actually does anything once every 3 to 5 years.

[Pandoras Folly]

Oooh oooh one of the binders options had something lime this. Super powerful empire that was so powerful that the gods struck them down. Once the kings died their spirits were placed in the throne to guide future kings, I guess it gave huge skill and knowledge bonuses.

[Seharvepernfan]

This may not answer your question, but the best, most long-lasting ruler is probably none at all. If the people themselves get along with each other just fine, then they're good to go.

Once you take out the psychopath element, society is golden.

[Pandoras Folly]

This may not answer your question, but the best, most long-lasting ruler is probably none at all. If the people themselves get along with each other just fine, then they're good to go.

Once you take out the psychopath element, society is golden.


But then who will rich murder hobos fight?

[Shining Wrath]

Who is being ruled and what is your style of ruling? If you're not benevolent and loved, at some point you're at God Emperor of Dune level defenses, where entire races have your death as a racial goal.

So:
To rule mortals, you either need to be a mortal who somehow achieved longevity, or you need to be a long-lived race that the mortals somehow accept as worthy of rule - perhaps a celestial of some sort.

Or ... just be a lich, or a dragon, or a dracolich, or something else that is going to live a long long time, and then rule ruthlessly and deal with the fact that 90% of the citizenry would gladly kill you if they could only figure out how to pull it off.

[Shining Wrath]

But then who will rich murder hobos fight?

External threats, of course. THEM. You know, the folks across the river / mountains / ocean / interplanetary gulf / interstellar void / planar divide who are BAD.

[Shining Wrath]

Well I have one of those plastic, bendy rulers, and it's lasted me for years. :smallbiggrin:



I think that's the important part. The question should not be who would make the best ruler, but who wants to do it? It can't be for power or wealth (anyone who achieved immortality has little to gain from a nation's army and would amass more wealth through other ways). As such, I'm guessing religious leaders (who actually have something to gain from the masses, in terms of followers), fighter-types (easily manipulable, and gaining power and wealth is not as easy for them) or your average aristocrat, whose skill set is limited in other fields.

Just as an exercise in creativity, give me some examples of people who would never ever want to be king, and I'll try to invent a backstory where they wound up taking the job anyway. Don't get too cheesy with the whole Achilles "If you take this job you'll die" type thing, by which I mean no inerrant easily understood prophecies of DOOM INESCAPABLE if they become king.

Or queen. Girls can play too:smallsmile:

[8wGremlin]

Here's an idea I've been using that might fit your game

Every time the ruler dies, a week of festivities and competitions are held
These competitions are to select a new ruler. The competitions test the rulers
Strength of arms, their quickness of eye and hand, and there health and hardiness. Any citizen may enter. When winner of the physical challenges is chosen, the are led to the throne room there to undergo the mental challenge.
Dressed only in silken robes they are led in to the throne room to spend the night communing with the spirits of the old rulers. They are to sit I the throne and see if the crown fits...

If they succeed they be ruler until they die...

What really happens...
The crown has a large gem which has been used for a magic jar spell by the first ruler.

He set the games up to pick brilliant physical bodies but lacking in will power
When They spend the night I the room he attempts to magic jar into their bodies

Thus he gets a good body the king continues to rule and becomes wise because he has communed with the old rulers

[Phelix-Mu]

Just as an exercise in creativity, give me some examples of people who would never ever want to be king, and I'll try to invent a backstory where they wound up taking the job anyway. Don't get too cheesy with the whole Achilles "If you take this job you'll die" type thing, by which I mean no inerrant easily understood prophecies of DOOM INESCAPABLE if they become king.

Or queen. Girls can play too:smallsmile:

A VoP, LG monk and devout anarchist (note, s/he believes that a person should rule themselves, not that there are no rules) who believes that having power over others deprives those others of a vital step in the universal quest for self-perfection, which is the goal of life. Basically, people that look to someone else for leadership are crippled in their quest for enlightenment, as developing self-reliance and an understanding of the inherently flawed nature of individuals is key to attaining wisdom, a virtual requirement on the path to self-realization and enlightenment.

Good luck.

[yougi]

Just as an exercise in creativity, give me some examples of people who would never ever want to be king, and I'll try to invent a backstory where they wound up taking the job anyway. Don't get too cheesy with the whole Achilles "If you take this job you'll die" type thing, by which I mean no inerrant easily understood prophecies of DOOM INESCAPABLE if they become king.

Or queen. Girls can play too:smallsmile:

I don't really get what you're trying to do here, but yes, there are people who don't want to be king: I, for one, would probably accept a job as head of my department and "lead" 20 people, but there's no way I'd get into politics and lead a whole NATION. Add to that the fact that in a D&D world, that's a dangerous job (much more than a modern leader), and you've got yourself a good chunk of people uninterested in that offer.

What I was pointing to was the need for a ruler who would want the job, and that not every dragon, wizard or lich wants to be king of a nation, even if you think they're the best, which is the reason why many leaders in our D&D Worlds are not wizards, dragons and liches.

[Tanuki Tales]

This thread makes me ponder about societies where long lived species live side by side with shorter lived species.

Like, for example, a society where you have cosmopolitan dwarves and humans living in perfect harmony. Assuming a non-democratic ruling system, I question what would keep Dwarves from dominating the ruling class by just the merit of their considerably longer lifespan.

[Shining Wrath]

A VoP, LG monk and devout anarchist (note, s/he believes that a person should rule themselves, not that there are no rules) who believes that having power over others deprives those others of a vital step in the universal quest for self-perfection, which is the goal of life. Basically, people that look to someone else for leadership are crippled in their quest for enlightenment, as developing self-reliance and an understanding of the inherently flawed nature of individuals is key to attaining wisdom, a virtual requirement on the path to self-realization and enlightenment.

Good luck.

Marge the VoP LG monk and devout anarchist arrives in the nation of Arrg and discovers that it has devolved into competing robber barons, each of whom exercises complete tyrannical control over their subjects and wages constant war against their neighbors. She finds that she must oppose these petty tyrants in order to live up to her personal lawful code. However, after taking out two of the worst, the rest of the robber barons join forces to destroy Marge and everyone who has aided her, and by necessity the opponents of tyranny join forces. Someone has to lead the joined forces of liberty, and Marge is so much better qualified to do the job than anyone else that no one else will even consider taking the job. She either becomes the leader of the coalition, or absolute tyranny rules Arrg for the foreseeable future.

And once the war is over, she attempts to leave ... and is summoned back because in her absence the victorious coalition fell apart into a fresh outbreak of robber barons, as the people of Arrg know no other way of government.

So, to prevent utter and absolute tyranny precluding even the slightest advancement along the path to enlightenment, Marge must accept the throne and rule until the people of Arrg learn to control themselves. Wisdom cannot develop in a place of violence, terror, and chaos.

Let the quibbling begin ... but remember that's 5 minutes work. :smallyuk:

[Shining Wrath]

I don't really get what you're trying to do here, but yes, there are people who don't want to be king: I, for one, would probably accept a job as head of my department and "lead" 20 people, but there's no way I'd get into politics and lead a whole NATION. Add to that the fact that in a D&D world, that's a dangerous job (much more than a modern leader), and you've got yourself a good chunk of people uninterested in that offer.

What I was pointing to was the need for a ruler who would want the job, and that not every dragon, wizard or lich wants to be king of a nation, even if you think they're the best, which is the reason why many leaders in our D&D Worlds are not wizards, dragons and liches.

Just playing an online game with Phelix-Mu. Sorry for hijacking your thread slightly. My point is that you can find a story to justify your king or queen being just about anyone you need for your game to progress and be fun. Philosopher kings? God-Emperors? Benevolent vampires? Whatever works for your campaign.

[yougi]

Just playing an online game with Phelix-Mu. Sorry for hijacking your thread slightly. My point is that you can find a story to justify your king or queen being just about anyone you need for your game to progress and be fun. Philosopher kings? God-Emperors? Benevolent vampires? Whatever works for your campaign.

I agree. From a DM's perspective, put anything in, you can justify anything. I understood the OP's question as "in a D&D-like world, who would become the best rulers".

[Seharvepernfan]

Well, an outsider would be pretty ideal, I think. If I could live in a region "ruled" by a tulyani, a titan, or a CG angel, I'd be pretty happy.

[Toy Killer]

I personally like the idea of a construct (Possibly a refluffed warforged) playing the role of 'The Constitution" of a nation. Programed with the ideals of the founding nation and designed to uphold them, until times change and either the ideals are too lax or too constictive, depending on the player's political demographic and how you want to play it out.

Extra points if you name him Sam (Or Jack, for the Brittish, don't know the other 'patriotic figures' of other Countries)

[Tanuki Tales]

I personally like the idea of a construct (Possibly a refluffed warforged) playing the role of 'The Constitution" of a nation. Programed with the ideals of the founding nation and designed to uphold them, until times change and either the ideals are too lax or too constictive, depending on the player's political demographic and how you want to play it out.

Extra points if you name him Sam (Or Jack, for the Brittish, don't know the other 'patriotic figures' of other Countries)

Why not use an Inevitable?