Antimagic Field Swarm

[Balor01]

So ... This is just a theory question.

How would you face (and defeat) a Swarm of Tiny creatures (immune to all weapon damage) which emanates a permanent Antimagic field?

As for spells, highest level spell that you can cast is lvl 5.

thanks

Editing and Expanding: Allrighty, so I'd also ask for an answer to this: Lets say we have CR 8 Hellwasp swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm) and we make wasps mechanical (Tiny Constructs).

What sort of CR would this reach with Antimagic Field Emanation (Ex) ability and what sort of Spell Resistance would be appropriate for this creature to not make it silly?

[ZeroNumerous]

How would you face (and defeat) a Swarm of Tiny creatures (immune to all weapon damage) which emanates a permanent Antimagic field?

1d6 at a time via a alchemist flasks or other mundane explosives.

[The Dark Fiddler]

SR: No spells such as the Orb of X line.

[Fouredged Sword]

There is a spell that drops a iceburg on them. 9th, large area damage, SR:no if I remember right.

[Balor01]

There is a spell that drops a iceburg on them. 9th, large area damage, SR:no if I remember right.



As for spells, highest level spell that you can cast is lvl 5.

Just a reminder.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Secrets of Sarlona's explosive packs. If you craft 'em yourself they're not unreasonably priced and for about 300gp of raw material you get roughly the equivalent of a fireball effect; 20ft radius spread and 10d6 damage.

[Eldan]

There's bound to be a few non-SR area spells in the Spell Compendium somewhere.

[Balor01]

There's bound to be a few non-SR area spells in the Spell Compendium somewhere.

I too believe so. But giving the specifics, what would be appropriate SR for this swarm? Lets say initial CR 8 is raised to 10 by being a constuct and another 2 by having AMF, thats 14. CR 16 for having SR 20?

[Jack_Simth]

SR: No spells such as the Orb of X line.
Doesn't work on the particular beastie, as that's a single-target effect.

However, if you metamagic up a Hail of Stones (Spell Compendium page 108) you get the same instantaneous conjuration clause in antimagic field, on an area effect spell, which should do the job (although slowly).

Otherwise, yes, alchemy - Alchemist's Fire, Flasks of Acid,

[ahenobarbi]

Drow Poison & capture them for later use.

[Vaz]

Throw oil, set fire. Job done.

[Psyren]

Blast of Flame (4th), Arc of Lightning (5th), and Vitriolic Sphere (5th) are all area spells in Spell Compendium that will penetrate an AMF.

(Vitriolic Sphere is used by the Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html) as well.)

[JeminiZero]

As already mentioned above, mundane splash weapons are the way to go. As far as spells are concerned, the wizard could use Water To Acid (Stormwrack) to mass produce throwable Acid on the cheap.

[Killer Angel]

First question: our hellwasp swarm is made mechanical, but does retain the "hell" part? if the answer is yes, then suggestions as "Throw oil, set fire" are a good way to assure your death.

Second question: are we sure that mundane splash weapons work? this is a flying swarm, if they're not flying near a solid surface, you could find some difficulties breaking the flasks in mid-air. And anyway, that swarm got a good chunk of HP... at 1d6 per flask, you'll need some time to do the work.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Thus my use of a bomb.

[Zombimode]

There is also Ice Storm from the SRD, the original SR: no area damage spell.

[Psyren]

There is also Ice Storm from the SRD, the original SR: no area damage spell.

That won't work - it's both an evocation and non-instantaneous, so AMF will suppress it before it can damage the swarm.

[Pechvarry]

Desert Wind Swordsage.

EDIT: or are the aoe fire abilities all Su?

[Tar Palantir]

Desert Wind Swordsage.

EDIT: or are the aoe fire abilities all Su?

They are, in fact.

[Karoht]

Collapse a tunnel on it. Crush them! Crush them!
Wall of Stone shenanigans could be employed. Summon the wall in a flat pancake shape, maybe stack a few of them for good measure, then have someone power attack their way through a single supporting chunk of wall and have the whole mess fall on the swarm from sufficient height? Crude, probably inefficient, but possible.

Carry a few anvils in your bags of holding and drop them?

Shrink item shenanigans come to mind, though not sure if WBL would allow for that at the given level for the example. At least, effective uses of it that is. But, invoking WBL solutions doesn't really feel like it is in the spirit of this challenge...

Breath weapons? Most of those are SU though aren't they? I imagine EX breath weapons are probably rare/non-existant. Hmmmm...

[Treblain]

Hail of Stone (SpC) is a 1st level, AoE instantaneous conjuration with no save. Congratulations, you have looked through the spell lists until you found the one that solves everything. Case closed. 3.5 swarms are f***ing stupid anyway. "Screw making our fantasy monsters a reasonable team-based challenge, because we're going for 'realism' and requiring 'creative tactics' such as hoping you have the right items or spells." :smallfurious:

By the way, SRD says that swarms of Tiny creatures (as opposed to Diminutive or Fine) aren't immune to weapon damage, just 50% resistant, if that was your idea. In which case, the casters can always just buff the archers while you wait for a tedious, boring fight to end.

[Psyren]

I don't know of any swarms that constantly project AMF, so we can't really blame the system here. It seemed more like the OP was trying to make the monster harder.

Without the AMF there are much more simple solutions - Fireball, Ice Storm, Gust of Wind etc. At level 10 the party should really have some kind of AoE.

[JaronK]

I know with my current character the answer would definitely involve Shrink Item and something big and heavy.

JaronK

[Killer Angel]

3.5 swarms are f***ing stupid anyway.

By the way, SRD says that swarms of Tiny creatures (as opposed to Diminutive or Fine) aren't immune to weapon damage, just 50% resistant, if that was your idea. In which case, the casters can always just buff the archers while you wait for a tedious, boring fight to end.

:smallannoyed:
The OP even gave a link to the hellwasp swarm. Among all the other things, they're immune to weapon damage and got a "collective hive mind intelligence with infernal cunning".
They're nasty beasts.

[Eurus]

:smallannoyed:
The OP even gave a link to the hellwasp swarm. Among all the other things, they're immune to weapon damage and got a "collective hive mind intelligence with infernal cunning".
They're nasty beasts.

Right, but Hellwasps are diminutive. If you increased them to tiny, they wouldn't be weapon-immune. I assume it was a typo though.

I support the barrels-of-acid plan. Produce the stuff in epic enough quantities, and you're set. Might require luring them into an interior area or something if they just fly around, though... a hall or something.

As for the CR, it's almost impossible to say because of how odd its abilities are. It'd be literally impossible for some parties to fight without extensive preparation, but its offensive capabilities aren't really sufficient enough to make it a super high-CR threat. Spell resistance is normally something like 11+CR, higher if you want it to be particularly tough to crack.

[Killer Angel]

Right, but Hellwasps are diminutive. If you increased them to tiny, they wouldn't be weapon-immune. I assume it was a typo though.


Ah, indeed, the OP was using the term "tiny".
Yep, i suppose it was a mistake, the correct size for the wasps should be diminutive.

[Vaz]

If it is in the open, then you can change the weather to turn into Hurricane Force winds. AMF all you like, it is still windy,. You change the weather, not affecting the swarm

[JeminiZero]

I know with my current character the answer would definitely involve Shrink Item and something big and heavy.

JaronK

Actually, thats an interesting thought. We can make use of AMF to shut off Shrink Item and trigger the acid bomb, sort of a reverse analog of the Tin Foil Hat. To this end:
1) Get several large cylinders of some acid-proof substance (glass?).
2) Cast Shrink item on the cylinder, so it shrinks to the size of a cork
3) Use Water to Acid to mass produce Acid
4) Fill bottles with the acid, and use the Shrunken Item Cylinder as a stopper.
5) Drop the bottles on the swarm from above
6) When the bottles hit the AMF, the cylinder returns to original size, bursting the bottles open in the process and spraying acid on the swarm. This lets you hit them even if they are not near any sort of surface.

[ericgrau]

Swarms are pretty weak with poor attack power. The general solution is already alchemical items and flasks of oil, even without an anti-magic field. Damage from spells is only a bonus.

By the time you fight a hellwasp swarm you usually have better spells and magic weapon special abilities which are now negated by the AMF, but ok I'll bite. It still only does 3d6 damage so you have all the time in the world. A party with acid flasks or holy water (works on evil extraplanar) and a wand of cure light wounds can take it down, provided that you can coordinate your efforts to move away + heal.

There are lots of better ways like the spells that bypass AMF and more elaborate tricks, but the point is that swarms are extraordinarily easy encounters for anyone because they do so little damage. Worst case the whole party can flee and come back with a solution later. I think the CR has that in mind when they over CR swarms.

I'll guess around +2 on the CR for the AMF. Spells were never necessary to beat swarms, they only make it easy. The AMF turns a routine fight into a difficult but surmountable one.

[Story]

Spell resistance is normally something like 11+CR, higher if you want it to be particularly tough to crack.

How come so few printed monsters have SR that high then? Even dragons top out at 9+CR if you don't customize them.

[Blisstake]

How come so few printed monsters have SR that high then? Even dragons top out at 9+CR if you don't customize them.

I was under the impression most outsiders with SR usually had at least CR +11 spell resistance.

[Eurus]

How come so few printed monsters have SR that high then? Even dragons top out at 9+CR if you don't customize them.

Hm, my bad. You're right. Probably necessary, now that I think about it, since parties are expected to reasonably fight encounters of CR two or three points higher than their level.

[Ducklord]

I too believe so. But giving the specifics, what would be appropriate SR for this swarm? Lets say initial CR 8 is raised to 10 by being a constuct and another 2 by having AMF, thats 14. CR 16 for having SR 20?

Why would SR make any difference if they were in an AMF all the time and disjunction is out?