Craft Skill with no ranks.

[Lord Bacon]

So long time lurker, first time poster.

I just started a campaign, Pathfinder, 4 of the 5 all want to craft but one of them is arguing that he doesn't need any ranks in the Craft skill to Craft anything. His defense is that on the sheet it doesn't have the * showing that is a trained only skill. The basic function of the Craft skill, however, is to allow you to make an item of the appropriate type.

I'm against crafting with no ranks in that skill because of this line described in the Craft skill. "The basic function of the Craft skill, however, is to allow you to make an item of the appropriate type." I've scoured internet and read the craft description many times. To me I think it should need ranks to craft but I'm not 100% sure.

Oh and I wouldn't be really pushing this if he wasn't playing a Dwarf Cleric with the Forgemaster Archtype.

Thanks in advance!

[Jack_Simth]

So long time lurker, first time poster.

I just started a campaign, Pathfinder, 4 of the 5 all want to craft but one of them is arguing that he doesn't need any ranks in the Craft skill to Craft anything. His defense is that on the sheet it doesn't have the * showing that is a trained only skill. The basic function of the Craft skill, however, is to allow you to make an item of the appropriate type.

I'm against crafting with no ranks in that skill because of this line described in the Craft skill. "The basic function of the Craft skill, however, is to allow you to make an item of the appropriate type." I've scoured internet and read the craft description many times. To me I think it should need ranks to craft but I'm not 100% sure.

Oh and I wouldn't be really pushing this if he wasn't playing a Dwarf Cleric with the Forgemaster Archtype.

Thanks in advance!

He's correct, even though it might seem a bit silly. Compare Craft (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/craft) to Profession (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/profession). Profession is explicitly trained only (it shows up both in the summery line, and it has an "untrained" special exception line). Craft has neither of those.

[Ashtagon]

For untrained Knowledge checks, you can never take 10, and automatically fail any DC higher than 10. Quite why that was never extended to other skills, I don't know.

You can even craft alchemical items with no skill ranks, provided you are a caster.

Even so, good luck crafting anything major with no ranks in Craft. There's no special penalty, but the DCs get high really quickly.

In particular, if you fail a check by 5 or more, you have to start over. For multi-week projects, that can get really frustrating with no skill rank bonus to help out.

[Vaern]

Training is not necessary to use the skills. However, you must keep in mind that a single craft check does not necessarily make the item. It only makes progress towards that item, over the course of one week. Someone with no ranks will take significantly longer than someone who is trained.

Not only that, but the DCs are rather high for someone with no ranks. Even with a +4 to int, the chances of making progress on something other than a simple weapon is 50% or lower. There's also a dangerous chance of failing by enough to destroy raw materials.

[Matticussama]

I think altering Craft to be a trained-only skill is a very reasonable house rule. Otherwise, as has been stated above, the chances of actually succeeding on any craft checks without putting ranks into it is unlikely. Even if the player gets lucky on a roll or two, by sheer probability they will almost never complete anything worth any significant amount of gold since eventually they'll fail (probably by 5 or more) as they attempt to make progress on an item.

[strider24seven]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/craft

Is Craft labeled as Craft (Int; Trained Only)?
No.

This is about as cut and dry as it gets.

[Edenbeast]

First of all, as a GM you can rule they require ranks before crafting anything.

According to the guide you can use craft untrained, but many of the more complex items require DC of 15 or more. Also note that for crafting you need artisan tools. Without these tools it's a -2 on craft check.

[Ashtagon]

First of all, as a GM you can rule they require ranks before crafting anything.

According to the guide you can use craft untrained, but many of the more complex items require DC of 15 or more. Also note that for crafting you need artisan tools. Without these tools it's a -2 on craft check.

Crafting seems to be something that, for all but the most trivial of crafting jobs, artisans tools are table stakes (ie. necessary to attempt it at all), not merely avoiding a -2 modifier. You can't craft a sword with your bare hands, although you could probably craft arrows with a sharp knife and a lot of patience.

[Edenbeast]

Crafting seems to be something that, for all but the most trivial of crafting jobs, artisans tools are table stakes (ie. necessary to attempt it at all), not merely avoiding a -2 modifier. You can't craft a sword with your bare hands, although you could probably craft arrows with a sharp knife and a lot of patience.

That depends on the material you crafting it from :P You can probably craft a sword out of a piece of wood.. Not a great sword though. But yes, I agree with you, without specific tools certain items become impossible to craft. Like for armour and weapons made of metal or iron, I would say you need a blacksmith's place to do it, even if you have your little set of artisan tools.

[Stront]

That depends on the material you crafting it from :P You can probably craft a sword out of a piece of wood.. Not a great sword though. But yes, I agree with you, without specific tools certain items become impossible to craft. Like for armour and weapons made of metal or iron, I would say you need a blacksmith's place to do it, even if you have your little set of artisan tools.

What if you were a monk who can punch through metal armor with your bare hands doing 2d10 damage a hit? Couldn't you use your bare hands to craft metal armor? Especially with your 5 Resistance Fire racial ability? :smallwink:

[Ashtagon]

What if you were a monk who can punch through metal armor with your bare hands doing 2d10 damage a hit? Couldn't you use your bare hands to craft metal armor? Especially with your 5 Resistance Fire racial ability? :smallwink:

Nope. Punching is good for making dents. For making straight sharp edges, not so much.

And fire resistance isn't relevant when you don't have fire anyway, last time I checked.

Basically, just no.

[Stront]

Nope. Punching is good for making dents. For making straight sharp edges, not so much.

And fire resistance isn't relevant when you don't have fire anyway, last time I checked.

Basically, just no.

Punching isn't the only way to strike something. You could use a knife hand to shave off parts and get that fine edge, haymaker to really work out the tough parts, or just use your diamond hard hands to shape it like clay. Spin the metal like dough to shape your rounded parts and palm strikes to flatten it out.

The first resistance would be necessary when you start handling glowing steel that is coming out of forge silly! :smalltongue:

[Ashtagon]

Punching isn't the only way to strike something. You could use a knife hand to shave off parts and get that fine edge, haymaker to really work out the tough parts, or just use your diamond hard hands to shape it like clay. Spin the metal like dough to shape your rounded parts and palm strikes to flatten it out.

The first resistance would be necessary when you start handling glowing steel that is coming out of forge silly! :smalltongue:

I thought we were discussing crafting options when you have no tools. Such as a forge. How silly of someone :smallsigh:

[Shining Wrath]

RAW: Crafting does not require training.
Note well: Skill checks on the good stuff will be pretty high, and you will need to make several such rolls. A fail by 5 or more destroys your project with the loss of all materials.
Dwarven Forgemasters can add magic to stuff that has been crafted, but the archetype does not seem to grant crafting ability.

[Deophaun]

Let's see:
-Craft: Pottery to first make a rudimentary furnace out of available stones and clay.
-Craft: Carpentry/Leatherworking for a bellows.
-Craft: Sculpture to make a mold if you need to cast any parts (such as for an anvil, or...).
-Craft: Sculpture to make a temporary anvil out of a sizable granite rock.

None of these should have a DC over 10, and it should be easy for an adventurer to improvise tools for all these tasks.

[Edenbeast]

RAW: Crafting does not require training.
Note well: Skill checks on the good stuff will be pretty high, and you will need to make several such rolls. A fail by 5 or more destroys your project with the loss of all materials.
Dwarven Forgemasters can add magic to stuff that has been crafted, but the archetype does not seem to grant crafting ability.

Mind you that craft is a class skill for the cleric, or for any other class for that matter. Thematically I would say, or how I would play this archetype, is to take ranks in armorsmithing or weaponsmithing, or both. Especially with the Master Smith feat at level 5, you can very effectively throw around masterworked weapons and armor for the rest of the party. And enchant them. Having no ranks in any craft skill means you'll fail most of the times producing the item in the first place, although you can still throw around masterwork spoons.. Spoons are rather easy to craft.

[Phelix-Mu]

So, as disclaimer, I don't play Pathfinder.

To the OP, all of the above seems very sound.

To the discussion in general, however, I am wondering under what justification Craft is untrained, and Profession is trained only. It seems to me that Craft describes a much more specialized set of knowledge, along with an attempt to actually do a specific thing. Profession just says you can spend time making money while working at a certain kind of job, the kind of thing that it seems to me would be easier to fudge. At least that is what they generally do in 3.5. Sounds like Craft is the same.

Just curious.

[Shining Wrath]

Mind you that craft is a class skill for the cleric, or for any other class for that matter. Thematically I would say, or how I would play this archetype, is to take ranks in armorsmithing or weaponsmithing, or both. Especially with the Master Smith feat at level 5, you can very effectively throw around masterworked weapons and armor for the rest of the party. And enchant them. Having no ranks in any craft skill means you'll fail most of the times producing the item in the first place, although you can still throw around masterwork spoons.. Spoons are rather easy to craft.

Don't mock masterwork spoons - they allow you a +2 to your balance check when eating soup to avoid spilling it on your tie.:smallamused:

[Shining Wrath]

So, as disclaimer, I don't play Pathfinder.

To the OP, all of the above seems very sound.

To the discussion in general, however, I am wondering under what justification Craft is untrained, and Profession is trained only. It seems to me that Craft describes a much more specialized set of knowledge, along with an attempt to actually do a specific thing. Profession just says you can spend time making money while working at a certain kind of job, the kind of thing that it seems to me would be easier to fudge. At least that is what they generally do in 3.5. Sounds like Craft is the same.

Just curious.

I think the basic idea is that Professions produce services, while Crafts produce things. A crude bowl still holds soup, but a crude lawyer gets you convicted.

[Gavinfoxx]

You don't need any ranks in Craft. Jack up your Int, and Take 10 on the task, get masterwork tools, get a few smart folk to Aid Another, and you'll be fine.

[Phelix-Mu]

I think the basic idea is that Professions produce services, while Crafts produce things. A crude bowl still holds soup, but a crude lawyer gets you convicted.

So allowing an intelligent, resourceful character to craft stuff is okay, but allowing a wise, resourceful character to act like a lawyer is not? Not sure that I follow this line of logic. If anything, Craft usually has more game impact than Profession, so it doesn't make much sense to make Craft the easier one to exploit. I guess they maybe filed this under realistic, anti-skill bloat to allow more commoners to use craft easily. Crazy easy for Int-based characters to jury-rig everything, now. Just what int-casters need, a dash of MacGyver!

[Edenbeast]

You don't need any ranks in Craft. Jack up your Int, and Take 10 on the task, get masterwork tools, get a few smart folk to Aid Another, and you'll be fine.

I think you are correct.. However, from a roleplayig point of view I'm trying to visualize a party of four people standing around an anvil, where none of them have ranks in a craft skill: "so uhh, who knows where to begin?"

[Gavinfoxx]

I think you are correct.. However, from a roleplayig point of view I'm trying to visualize a party of four people standing around an anvil, where none of them have ranks in a craft skill: "so uhh, who knows where to begin?"

And one of them is a supergenius (20 int? 22?)... yea, it won't be a problem...

[Elderand]

So allowing an intelligent, resourceful character to craft stuff is okay, but allowing a wise, resourceful character to act like a lawyer is not? Not sure that I follow this line of logic. If anything, Craft usually has more game impact than Profession, so it doesn't make much sense to make Craft the easier one to exploit. I guess they maybe filed this under realistic, anti-skill bloat to allow more commoners to use craft easily. Crazy easy for Int-based characters to jury-rig everything, now. Just what int-casters need, a dash of MacGyver!

Because profession depends on a very specific set of training and specific knowledge that you cannot derive easily by simple observation. It doesn't matter how wise you are, if you haven't learned the laws, how they interact, loopholes and such you're not going to be an even remotely effective lawyer. But everyone can figure how to roughly sharpen a piece of iron to make a sword relatively easily.

It will be a crude sword that isn't going to compare to what Mcswordsmith the third can do but for slashing and poking flesh it will be good enough.
And more complex stuff cannot be crafted easily unless you got ungodly inteligence or magic to help.

[Edenbeast]

And one of them is a supergenius (20 int? 22?)... yea, it won't be a problem...

That's not really a great argument.. Eventhough it does work that way if a GM allows it.. I'm a supergenius doing a PhD program, ask me how to craft a sword, and I'll tell you I have no clue.. Never done it. I 've seen swords, so sure I can have try. I also have this friend who is a blacksmith, but since I have no experience in swordmaking, I won't be of much help in his workshop.
As a GM I would tell the player to roll some general knowledge check to see if he knows. A bard could be helpful there. I would also not allow him to take 10. I find taking 10 in general is for PC's trained in the specific skill (reflecting their ability to estimate the chances of succes), but that's just my personal opinion.

[JaronK]

Then again, this is a game with spells like Magecraft that just give you knowledge of how to do it.

So it's really "He's a super genius with magic spells that tell him how to do it." Of course it works!

JaronK

[ericgrau]

Because if I'm really smart I can just guess at the proper temperatures and durations for getting the type of steel I want?

Ya this doesn't make any sense. It's not like playing with clay where you can form nice shapes if you're naturally talented. You actually have to know something.

Oh well. It opens up fabricate abuse pretty nicely. Instead of learning a bunch of crafts, just get your int really high like you would do anyway. Then find ways to get bonuses to all skill checks. Besides items I think there are feats for that.

[Sir_Thaddeus]

So, rules-wise, I'm inclined to agree with most of the posters here, and say that since Craft is not a trained-only skill, it's technically possible to craft stuff without ranks. But I'm slightly curious... you say the player in question took the Forgemaster archetype, which seems to be focused on crafting things... and then put no ranks in Craft. This doesn't really seem to make sense, fluff-wise or mechanically, and the whole question could really be avoided if said player simply puts ranks in the skill he seems to want to use.

[Ashtagon]

I seem to recall seeing a rule somewhere that you can only take 10 if you are trained in the skill, but I can't find he reference. Anyone know anything of this?

[Phelix-Mu]

Because profession depends on a very specific set of training and specific knowledge that you cannot derive easily by simple observation. It doesn't matter how wise you are, if you haven't learned the laws, how they interact, loopholes and such you're not going to be an even remotely effective lawyer. But everyone can figure how to roughly sharpen a piece of iron to make a sword relatively easily.

It will be a crude sword that isn't going to compare to what Mcswordsmith the third can do but for slashing and poking flesh it will be good enough.
And more complex stuff cannot be crafted easily unless you got ungodly inteligence or magic to help.


But I think we could all agree that our OOG knowledge of swordmaking reflects irl common knowledge of the process of smithing, knowledge that a character would probably only derive from reading or observing the process. The same process that a wise person might use for copying the tactics of a lawyer that he witnessed. Allowing someone untrained with Craft some outside reference (a cultural understanding of how smithing works), and not allowing someone untrained with Profession to do it in a similar manner seems unfair.

I'm not saying that you could generally do all the things a lawyer does (needed for the earning of money), but in a specific role play instance you could certainly act and sound like a lawyer, represent yourself in a makeshift manner based solely on having seen one in action at some point in your life. Bear in mind that medieval lawyers usually didn't need advanced degrees, just a bit apprenticeship, reading, etc. Things like precedent and such mattered much less in the distant past of rule by decree and other less enlightened justice systems.

In this sense Profession(lawyer) was a poor choice. Profession (sailor) is probably more appropriate. Suggestion that you can't act like a sailor just by having observed other sailors at work is silly. You may suck in comparison, but there's no reason you can't pretend. Me guessing how to be a sailor is no less likely to succeed than a tundra barbarian guessing how to use this anvil to make a dagger.

[JaronK]

I seem to recall seeing a rule somewhere that you can only take 10 if you are trained in the skill, but I can't find he reference. Anyone know anything of this?

It's not a rule. Probably a house rule you saw once.

JaronK

[Ashtagon]

It's not a rule. Probably a house rule you saw once.

JaronK

Double checked. It is an official rule in d20 Modern (p47). Knew I read it somewhere. It actually makes sense that untrained characters can't take 10. They don't know the skill well enough to calmly do it reliably each time every time. Not knowing the skill, they are experimenting with techniques and approaches to the task with every attempt, so they don't get to take 10.

[Shining Wrath]

Because profession depends on a very specific set of training and specific knowledge that you cannot derive easily by simple observation. It doesn't matter how wise you are, if you haven't learned the laws, how they interact, loopholes and such you're not going to be an even remotely effective lawyer. But everyone can figure how to roughly sharpen a piece of iron to make a sword relatively easily.

It will be a crude sword that isn't going to compare to what Mcswordsmith the third can do but for slashing and poking flesh it will be good enough.
And more complex stuff cannot be crafted easily unless you got ungodly inteligence or magic to help.

The law is not at all a product of wisdom. It's a product of politicians.

[SinsI]

I think you are correct.. However, from a roleplaying point of view I'm trying to visualize a party of four people standing around an anvil, where none of them have ranks in a craft skill: "so uhh, who knows where to begin?"
That's a Knowledge check, don't you think? :smallbiggrin:

Crafting things is such a basic skill that almost anyone has done it before and can do with very little or no training, as long as he has the appropriate tools and materials in sufficient amount - having seen something is generally enough unless it is something very complex, in which case you'd fail anyway because of the DC.

[Phelix-Mu]

The law is not at all a product of wisdom. It's a product of politicians.

Wisdom is only relevant from the Profession key ability. I would say that Wisdom here would signify your ability to problem-solve when using the skill trained. Untrained (if such a thing were allowed), it might signify the ability to glean the important bits of being a lawyer from observation of some other lawyer or from court proceedings generally.

Again, I think we all underestimate the degree to which crafting things like swords seems self-evident because, in modern society, knowledge of how many things are made is widely known even beyond people that make them. Without reference to some outside source of knowledge, even the most intelligent tundra barbarian from a pre-metal weapons society shouldn't be assumed to be able to figure out how to forge a sword just by being plopped in the midst of the smithy. Chance of failure should be much worse than indicated by the DC in the Craft skill. Observing a weaponsmith make a weapon would go a long way to fixing this, but that seems counter to what has been suggested.

[searlefm]

err i just want to point out blacksmiths where common the world over for almost a Melania in Europe and most of Asia, and towns (what we would call a village) would fight for, and be willing to pay grate price for smiths happily.
feeding and house one for there life just for good metal work.
and i cant blame them so these skills where common and well known of if not revered.
so yes 3-4 people with int 16-22 could logically make a sword or a gun or a number of grenades (yes the Chinese had grenades in the dark ages).
and id let them as DM as there going to be missing out on most formes of combat if not all.

[Gavinfoxx]

Blacksmiths (iron) were common...

Swordsmiths (steel) that could regularly make high quality steel swords? Those were worth going to war over!

[Phelix-Mu]

err i just want to point out blacksmiths where common the world over for almost a Melania in Europe and most of Asia, and towns (what we would call a village) would fight for, and be willing to pay grate price for smiths happily.
feeding and house one for there life just for good metal work.
and i cant blame them so these skills where common and well known of if not revered.
so yes 3-4 people with int 16-22 could logically make a sword or a gun or a number of grenades (yes the Chinese had grenades in the dark ages).
and id let them as DM as there going to be missing out on most formes of combat if not all.

Your argument simply points out that people that were able to craft were highly valued. Not that anyone should be able to craft, regardless of training. I guess this all comes under the anti-skill bloat thing that PF tried to incorporate, but declassifying skills, so to speak, is the opposite of making those skills valuable. Granted, jury-rigged equips made by untrained characters could be almost useless, but if I can make a sword without tools (wasn't that just a minor penalty?) just because I'm smart, then we have a problem. Taking 10 is a big deal, in this case, because it bypasses the implied loss of materials that should occur over repeated use of Craft.

Anyway, since I don't play PF, I have zero invested in this argument. Low-level MacGyvering by int-casters won't destroy everything, but I hardly see a need for it.

[searlefm]

Blacksmiths (iron) were common...

Swordsmiths (steel) that could regularly make high quality steel swords? Those were worth going to war over!

yes i cant remember the name of it but there was quite a big one in china over the secret of smelting steel

[Kelb_Panthera]

Blacksmiths (iron) were common...

Swordsmiths (steel) that could regularly make high quality steel swords? Those were worth going to war over!

Unfortunately, this is one of the places where the game departs from reality for simplicity's sake.

The system simply doesn't differentiate between wrought iron and well made steel.

[Gavinfoxx]

Though if you want to add a distinction, make most things iron and give high quality steel the stats of Baatorian Greensteel. And assume that a really really good steelsmith can add things like the stats to:

Baatorian Greensteel: Fiendish Codex 2
Basket Hilt: Dragon Magazine 358
Dwarvencraft: Races of Stone
Perfect Balance: Dragon Magazine 358
Resilient: Dragon Magazine 358
Blood groove: Dragon Magazine 358
Acid Washed: Dragon Magazine 358

To a sword... of course don't DO all of that stuff, don't use the various terms that it calls it, or the rules for opening up this stuff, but just say that if everyone else is using what the game considers an iron sword, a good swordsmith (say Expert 5 with Skill Focus and several related crafting skills) can make a steel sword with all of those stats. Regularly, and repeatably... using the same inputs as a normal blacksmith.

[searlefm]

Gavinfoxx although that's a OK idear BUT Lord Bacon specified pathfinder
so why not come up with a simple chard on the weapons brake DC and hardness so

material hardness HP Weight modifier Effects
bronze 5 2 (blunt)
silver 7 2 (silver)
iron 10 3 1.5 (cold steel)
steel 15 4
titanium 20 5 0.75

and give center weapons effects or properties based on what there made of for bypassing DR and weight modifiers
and adding ruling where steel is automatically master craft +1
and titanium is master craft +2
although this is a quick mockup and will need refraining i recommend going along like this,
i do hope this helps on that respect.

but back to the initial question of crafting with out ranks sure go for it BUT enjoy having you smart people standing around going
''How hard can this be the blacksmith dose this all day and he's an idiot''
''Yes quite so, how could we not do this if the peasants can''
and then ultimately procrastinate and fail at reinventing the sword a dozen times before that get any results if that have the money time and recourse that is.

[Gavinfoxx]

Titanium is less durable/hard/etc. than equivalent volume of steel. Bronze is more durable than Silver. If you want good easy to understand weights and utility for weapons and stuff for a fantasy game, look at dwarf fortress.

Dwarf Fortress Adamantine is more like D&D Mithral. Light, hard, strong.

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Weapon

Edged Weapons: Adamantine > Steel > Iron > Bronze, Bismuth Bronze > Copper > Silver

Blunt Weapons: Steel, Silver > Copper, Bismuth Bronze, Bronze, Iron > Adamantine

Armor: Adamantine > Steel > Iron > Bronze, Bismuth Bronze > Copper

[ArcturusV]

Heh, quite so searlefm.

I work construction by trade myself. Build homes for a living mostly. Did a stint with Habitat for Humanity for two years. So we had a lot of volunteers coming in to help out for a week or so randomly throughout the year.

Now, I'd talk to these guys. I'd KNOW they're smart. You'd get everything from honor roll and Dean's List students in High School/College, to doctors, lawyers, and other educated professionals coming in to swing a hammer for a good cause.

And other than the guys who had already done several tours with Habitat for Humanity and worked on several houses before, the one universal rule I tended to find is that most of them had a really hard time even doing "basic" tasks like nailing two boards together flush in a 90 degree joint, without you supervising and showing them just how to do it right and easiest way. Never mind something a bit more complex like installing shelving and cabinetry, pouring cement, or framing.

Now take a more complex act like smithing a suit of adamantine plate armor or something? I just can't see any way. It's something where without someone who knows what's what looking over your shoulder, fixing things, pointing out mistakes, you're never going to do it. It makes sense as DM to say, "Okay, the guy without ranks in Craft (Pottery) can make an ashtray, sure. But you're not going to be figuring out how to make a hypocaust."

In fact regardless of bonuses from stats, items, etc, I'd probably suggest you make a ruling that if the DC reaches a certain amount, you just can't possibly succeed without trained help.

[Gavinfoxx]

Does the spell Magecraft or Crafter's Fortune count as training?

How about a Cartouche of Imhotep (like magecraft, but all craft skills)?

[ArcturusV]

I'd count magic. Though if you have an artifact related to a God, you're probably also at the point where you can bypass Wealth by Level guidelines/limitations and just create endless wealth and buy whatever you need, rendering Crafting moot.

Then again I don't usually see players take Crafting related magic. They'd usually take magic or items that boost a stat, then try to use the stat bonus to do the same thing, plus everything else a stat bonus would do.

[Gavinfoxx]

Cartouche of Imhotep is like 5k gp... not that bad... and imhotep was a king, not a god (presumably, you'd rename it to a different mulhorand king or something for FR, for example).

[ArcturusV]

My mind was blanking, and I was confusing it with a God. Probably from reading the "killing a god" topic earlier where everyone was mentioning a god that I suppose had a similar name, was considered one of the weakest full gods to be printed, and was a god of Crafting or something.

Still it's kinda a lot. 5k, yeah, WBL you can end up having it at, what, level 5 off the top of my head? If you have almost nothing else at all. But no one is gonna want to run around like that. So realistically you're talking more like level 9-10 at minimum, maybe a bit higher, for a miscellaneous item with a narrow focus like that.

Which is also around the time a lot of Infinite Wealth stuff I've seen players try to pull is kicking in as well.

[Gavinfoxx]

It's a Wondrous Item, though. Easily craftable...

Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, mending, Craft (any) 5 ranks; Price 5,000 gp; Weight --.


Also Magecraft and the Cartouche is a Competence bonus, ie, the same as masterwork equipment. Some jars of shapesand and a cartouche or a 1/day wondrous item of magecraft mean that you always have super-masterwork equipment (+5 rather than +2) for any item you want to craft... is there a point where better equipment SHOULD make it possible to do this without training? Why does it mater if the equipment is magical or not, if the bonus is the same type?

[ArcturusV]

Though requiring you to have crafting to be able to make it kind of voids the purpose of making it to avoid having to invest crafting ranks to be able to craft better gear.

I thought bonuses of the same name type didn't stack. Ergo you could only have the highest competence bonus.

[Gavinfoxx]

SOMEONE just needs to provide that part of it. It doesn't need to be YOU.

It can be the (likely) jewelry-maker whose help you get in making the item; it is an inscribed gold necklace, after all.

[sabelo2000]

@ArcturusV: I was one of those smart yet hapless guys helping out at Habitat for Humanity (maybe not in your area, but nonetheless) and yes, I agree how this applies to the conversation.

Sure, I could make a house, just like I could stick a chunk of metal in a fire, and bang on it until it was sword-shaped. It would take me a long time to get it right, and probably quite a few times my house would fall down or I'd torch or snap my sword. But eventually, it exists in the realm of possibility that I could reason out how to put things together in the general shape I want.

Thus, untrained skill checks MIGHT work, if I had a long time to practice and plenty of materials to break. And of course, the smarter I am, the more able I'd be to, eventually, puzzle out the correct methods of doing things.

[Bogardan_Mage]

I think the thing with Profession can be explained by the fact that the Profession rules were written under the assumption that you were working for money, whereas the Craft rules were written under the assumption that you were making stuff for your own use. So the reason an untrained Profession (lawyer) check is not allowed is that you simply can't get a job without any training as a lawyer. There aren't any rules for acting like a lawyer without any training, so it would probably be a Wisdom or Charisma check (maybe with some penalty for not knowing the relevant statutes etc.) but you can't make money doing it because nobody will hire you.

[searlefm]

objection become a reasonable level sorcerer a metric tone of charisma reasonable wisdom and good bluff rank and a few dozen charm person thrown in, and they will believe your the lawyer and the judge and jury, and the only one worth linings to regardless of how factual what you say is.

[Ashtagon]

objection become a reasonable level sorcerer a metric tone of charisma reasonable wisdom and good bluff rank and a few dozen charm person thrown in, and they will believe your the lawyer and the judge and jury, and the only one worth linings to regardless of how factual what you say is.

:thog: Thog think that not pro... prof... thinky person skill now.

[Shining Wrath]

Heh, quite so searlefm.

I work construction by trade myself. Build homes for a living mostly. Did a stint with Habitat for Humanity for two years. So we had a lot of volunteers coming in to help out for a week or so randomly throughout the year.

Now, I'd talk to these guys. I'd KNOW they're smart. You'd get everything from honor roll and Dean's List students in High School/College, to doctors, lawyers, and other educated professionals coming in to swing a hammer for a good cause.

And other than the guys who had already done several tours with Habitat for Humanity and worked on several houses before, the one universal rule I tended to find is that most of them had a really hard time even doing "basic" tasks like nailing two boards together flush in a 90 degree joint, without you supervising and showing them just how to do it right and easiest way. Never mind something a bit more complex like installing shelving and cabinetry, pouring cement, or framing.

Now take a more complex act like smithing a suit of adamantine plate armor or something? I just can't see any way. It's something where without someone who knows what's what looking over your shoulder, fixing things, pointing out mistakes, you're never going to do it. It makes sense as DM to say, "Okay, the guy without ranks in Craft (Pottery) can make an ashtray, sure. But you're not going to be figuring out how to make a hypocaust."

In fact regardless of bonuses from stats, items, etc, I'd probably suggest you make a ruling that if the DC reaches a certain amount, you just can't possibly succeed without trained help.

^THIS.

I have, by trial and error, gotten fairly adept at house maintenance. And I want to emphasize there was quite a bit of error in that trial and error. No way do 4 smart guys dropped into the middle of a smithy make a sword without having to figure out things like the order of operations ... and annealing is not immediately obvious.

[Lord Bacon]

Thanks for all the great replies guys/gals.

So I was prepared to argue with him some more but he basically talked himself into it because in real life he was trying to bind a book back together and failed miserably.

So thanks again and adding another House Rule for our group.